Re: [Framework-Team] Re: WebDAV changes
On 24.02.2008, at 21:49, George Lee wrote: Tom Lazar [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for the record: the front-page issue mentioned by wiggy did *not* occur in my testing of the bundle itself, which suggests that it is perhaps caused by some side-effect of previous merges. and certainly outside the scope of the framework-team testing... (not that it actually matters now, though) Or perhaps an issue with removing Calendaring, keeping Lime, and keeping the CMFPlone changes (for instance, a broken import Calendaring step in CMFPlone that it doesn't understand without Calendaring?) -- not with actually having all of them together. ah, i wasn't aware that the bundle had only been partially merged by wiggy. your explanation certainly makes sense. My framework-team questions is more about to egg or not to egg and unneeded code, whether that should have been noted. I think people's suggestions of a better framework team process; and communicating more clearly when things need to be reverted, by whom, and why -- make sense. Peace, George ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: WebDAV changes
On Feb 27, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Tom Lazar wrote: On 27.02.2008, at 09:57, Andreas Zeidler wrote: On Feb 27, 2008, at 2:00 AM, Sidnei da Silva wrote: On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Andreas Zeidler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 24, 2008, at 5:30 PM, George Lee wrote: imho, yes. i still don't see how i should have caught the bug wiggy has, if that issue specifically *was* working when i conducted my own tests. just to make sure, you had removed the Calendaring package from your buildout when this still worked? but then again: isn't that the reason why the rest of the framework team members were supposed to read each plip's review notes and then cast their vote on the plip, as well? in this case none of five reviewers noticed the oversight. no, but it's kinda hard to know there are additional packages without reviewing the bundle in the first place. i mean, how can you tell the notes are missing something when the only information you're looking at are the notes. this could mean there's a flaw in the process, and imho that's the case, but for this time at least the other members relied on the notes, so to say. well, some didn't even go that far... ;) I think, for the future we need to create more specific checklists of some sort to increase the likelihood that all relevant aspects of a plip are covered in a review. +1 then again, i realise now that part of the job of a reviewer is exactly to find out those areas. perhaps that's something we should specifically add to the job description ;-) +1 again. having read the list and the trac comments i still can't tell whether the consensus is to re-review the bundle for 3.1 or if this is going to go into 3.2. i guess, that's ultimately wiggy's call. afaik sidnei was going to look into the raised issues first (and fix them), but a clear statement would probably help him decide if it makes sense at all for him to spend time on it now. cheers, andi -- zeidler it consulting - http://zitc.de/ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] friedelstraße 31 - 12047 berlin - telefon +49 30 25563779 pgp key at http://zitc.de/pgp - http://wwwkeys.de.pgp.net/ plone 3.0.6 released! -- http://plone.org/products/plone PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: WebDAV changes
On Feb 27, 2008, at 5:24 PM, Tom Lazar wrote: On 24.02.2008, at 21:49, George Lee wrote: Or perhaps an issue with removing Calendaring, keeping Lime, and keeping the CMFPlone changes (for instance, a broken import Calendaring step in CMFPlone that it doesn't understand without Calendaring?) -- not with actually having all of them together. ah, i wasn't aware that the bundle had only been partially merged by wiggy. your explanation certainly makes sense. i don't think that was the case — for what i know wichert explicitly tried to remove the additional package which was not supposed to become part of plone core... andi -- zeidler it consulting - http://zitc.de/ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] friedelstraße 31 - 12047 berlin - telefon +49 30 25563779 pgp key at http://zitc.de/pgp - http://wwwkeys.de.pgp.net/ plone 3.0.6 released! -- http://plone.org/products/plone PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: WebDAV changes
On Feb 24, 2008, at 9:51 PM, George Lee wrote: P.S. I think that as a matter of process it make sense that a release manager can make / ask for a major revert for time's sake, but that the framework team should then speak up on that because ultimately it's supposed to be their decision and what they're accountable for. no, not really. the framework team's job is to review and give recommendations to the release manager. the decision to merge or not to merge (or revert for that matter) is made by the release manager, though. cheers, andi ps: also see http://plone.org/development/teams/framework/faq -- zeidler it consulting - http://zitc.de/ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] friedelstraße 31 - 12047 berlin - telefon +49 30 25563779 pgp key at http://zitc.de/pgp - http://wwwkeys.de.pgp.net/ plone 3.0.6 released! -- http://plone.org/products/plone PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: WebDAV changes
On Feb 24, 2008, at 5:30 PM, George Lee wrote: Wichert Akkerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've just reverted the WebDAV changes from Sidnei after playing a bit with them. I did this for two reasons: Hanno had some very good remarks that need to be addressed I tested the 3.1 tree with just Calendaring removed. Some testing there quickly revealed that there are other things broken: the default frontpage for a Plone site is no longer created properly Sidnei pointed out it would have been better to hear about these issues earlier. Are these issues ones that the framework team should have noticed? imho, yes. the fact that two additional packages are introduced by the PLIP should have been pointed out, along with additional review notes about them, or at least a note whether they have been reviewed or not... cheers, andi -- zeidler it consulting - http://zitc.de/ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] friedelstraße 31 - 12047 berlin - telefon +49 30 25563779 pgp key at http://zitc.de/pgp - http://wwwkeys.de.pgp.net/ plone 3.0.6 released! -- http://plone.org/products/plone PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: WebDAV changes
On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Andreas Zeidler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 24, 2008, at 5:30 PM, George Lee wrote: imho, yes. the fact that two additional packages are introduced by the PLIP should have been pointed out, along with additional review notes about them, or at least a note whether they have been reviewed or not... It should have been pretty obvious, the review buildout had a 'parts/review' part with the changed or new products inside it, and only them. -- Sidnei da Silva Enfold Systemshttp://enfoldsystems.com Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214 ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: WebDAV changes
as a member of the framework team (and as somebody who co-reviewed sidnei's bundle) i feel the need to speak up. sidnei, i understand your frustration but please consider the following: * your bundle was one of the most complex ones submitted (certainly the one with the largest impact) * each reviewer cautioned against unconditional acceptance of this plip due to the fact that it was difficult to review * each reviewer pointed out several issues that require addressing, which haven't been addressed yet. * each reviewer came to the conclusion that the current status of the bundle does not satisfy the 'OOTB working webdav' claim of the plip * instead we said, let's include the bundle for the benefits that it brings and then finish it for 3.2 if wiggy, as release manager, now finds that there are bugs in the code that actually make things *worse* than before i'm afraid i have to agree with his decision. this is certainly nothing personal against you. i'm only pointing this out, because it appears to me that you are disgruntled. you are free to blame the framework team, including myself, for not having caught the bugs that wiggy now has, but then again, there really was no clear testcase against which to test your bundle (you certainly didn't provide anything along those lines) and eventhough each reviewer approached it from a different angle it just proved not to be enough. personally, i'm glad the bugs were found *now*, i.e. before the betas and i can only urge you to hang in there for 3.2; i would like to offer to review the bundle again for 3.2 (which we will start working on pretty much straight away after 3.1 is released) and to work more closely with you. i think the work you're doing for webdav is important and i have a personal interest to have working webdav. i hope this can ease things a bit for you. all the best, tom On 24.02.2008, at 18:19, Sidnei da Silva wrote: On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Wichert Akkerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've just reverted the WebDAV changes from Sidnei after playing a bit with them. What?!? I did this for two reasons: Hanno had some very good remarks that need to be addressed And there's nothing that prevents them from being addressed other than time? I tested the 3.1 tree with just Calendaring removed. Some testing there quickly revealed that there are other things broken: the default frontpage for a Plone site is no longer created properly this made me feel that at this moment the implementation of this PLIP is note quite mature enough. How does that relate to the changes I made? Please provide more details. We have too much happening in the 3.1 tree at the moment to work on it there, so this should mature a bit more before we merge it again. I find that completely unfair. You have not provided any clear reason why it should be reverted. I can't see from your email how the frontpage is related to WebDAV changes. I am quickly losing any interest I had in getting those changes merged. At best, you should have asked *me* to revert the changes. -- Sidnei da Silva Enfold Systemshttp://enfoldsystems.com Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214 ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: WebDAV changes
Previously Martin Aspeli wrote: Let's all take a deep breath I think it's a bit worrying that these issues were only found after merge. I'm not particularly thrilled about having code ship with 3.1 that is not used and that no-one will maintain. Arguably, this should never have been submitted for inclusion (i.e. we should've made a new branch of Calendaring or a new package altogether), and it should probably have been picked up during bundle review, which was the proper time to discuss this. Now, reverting an accepted PLIP without notifying the PLIP owner is IMHO a bad idea. We risk alienating contributors and it could be conceived as disrespectful of their contributions. Sidnei seemed to be offering a plan to improve this situation before 3.1. I was a bit confused by some of the details there, but we should try and work those out in a positive way. That said, Wichert's message seems to say to me I've reverted it for now, we'll try again later, in a somewhat convoluted way. If that's the case, then there's no reason to panic. That said, I think a message to the PLIP author would be the right thing to do here. We also need a bit more detail than it breaks the front page to be able to work together on resolving any problems. Let's not lose sign of the bigger picture here: Improving our WebDAV support is an important goal, and something that's been painful to get right in the past. Let's not make it more painful by getting lost in process like this. As usual Martin does a better job of wording what I'm thinking than I can. We have multiple people merging a fair amount of changes in the tree on a pretty tight schedule, so it is imortant that there are no problems as a result of a merge. Sidnei said he would work on this on Monday, so I made the decision to revert the changes in the 3.1 tree to give him all the time he needs to respond to the found issues while giving everyone else who needs to work with the 3.1 tree a stable tree to work with. The frontpage issue I found is very simple to reproduce: if you create a new Plone site the text of the default frontpage is empty. After reverting the changes to CMFPlone frontpage creation worked again. Wichert. -- Wichert Akkerman [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is simple to make things. http://www.wiggy.net/ It is hard to make things simple. ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: WebDAV changes
On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 4:56 PM, Wichert Akkerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The frontpage issue I found is very simple to reproduce: if you create a new Plone site the text of the default frontpage is empty. After reverting the changes to CMFPlone frontpage creation worked again. If that's deemed important (which it obviously is), a test should exist that does make sure this keeps working. Why did the test infrastructure not catch it (ie, all the existing tests pass)? Maybe there *is* a test, and a browser rendering issue made the text invisible instead? -- Sidnei da Silva Enfold Systemshttp://enfoldsystems.com Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214 ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
