Re: [Frameworks] First person narrative
Friday, February 24, 2012, 1:40:54 PM, one wrote: Thursday, February 23, 2012, 12:54:38 PM, one wrote: I'm guessing from the OP that only Ferris Bueller counts as what Gene is asking for, the others being examples of interior monologues. ... * interior non-diegetic: We only hear the characters via voice-over, but they are talking to US, breaking the 'fourth-wall' (Example: Sunset Boulevard, The Opposite of Sex) Actually, Clockwork Orange counts here too. Alex is not talking to himself in filmic time, he's narrating in past tense to us (or rather, to an audience addressed as O My Brothers who diegetically may be interpreted as a post-hospital new set of droogies, but really reduces to us, audience-implicationwise). Actually to be more precise, I was thinking that CO is in the same mode as Sunset Blvd ... which it is, but neither of them satisfies Gene's original request, because they're in *past tense*. I haven't seen The Opposite of Sex so I can't tell if it belongs What characteristics might distinguish a *first person present tense* voice *NOT* to be an interior monolog? I mean to say, couldn't *any* of the first be interpreted as the second? -- Jim Flannery j...@newgrangemedia.com ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] First person narrative
Robert Nelson's Bleu Shut which references the clock in the corner of the screen, so the viewer will know how much time is left in case he or she is bored. Christopher Maclaine's The End also addresses the viewer in the present tense. But these two examples may be more 2nd person than 1st person because you is used more often than I. Though in the Christan Metz sense, I is not the filmmaker speaking but the film itself. Then of course there are Peter Rose's Secondary Currents and Michael Snow's So Is This in which the film is speaking in the first person present tense as an utterer of film-speech and there is no interior monologue but only direct monologue, even if these ramble and take tangents, etc. -Pip At 15:03 -0800 24/02/12, Jim Flannery wrote: What characteristics might distinguish a *first person present tense* voice *NOT* to be an interior monolog? I mean to say, couldn't *any* of the first be interpreted as the second? ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] First person narrative
Actually to be more precise, I was thinking that CO is in the same mode as Sunset Blvd ... which it is, but neither of them satisfies Gene's original request, because they're in *past tense*. I haven't seen The Opposite of Sex so I can't tell if it belongs. It's grammatically past tense too, though like a lot of narration in fiction it's restricted. That is, though the narrator would seem to be speaking from a point in time well beyond the events being depicted, they rarely reveal any 'spoilers' any sense that they know what's coming. (Gene has clarified that his interest is not in fiction at all, but we can still talk about it...) What characteristics might distinguish a *first person present tense* voice *NOT* to be an interior monolog? I mean to say, couldn't *any* of the first be interpreted as the second? Well, there's two different things there. My little four-part distinction didn't consider the question of tense. So if you add all of the different temporal relationships direct address might have to the unfolding events (which themselves might or might not be in chronological order) there'd be a lot more categories. But to answer the specific question, 'first person, present tense' would NOT be 'interior monolog' in any case where we see the character speaking. That is, what 'interior monolog' is interior to is the characters' mind. This does not necessarily mean the characters' are 'talking to themselves.' Alex is not addressing an actual group of Droogs. He's imagining an audience. But it's not clear where and when he is doing so, or whether this space/time is within the diegesis or the character has been plucked out of his fictionsl world to some meta-position via 'the miracle of cinems'. In 'Taxi Driver' Travis's monologues would seem to be entries he's recording into a diary -- (which makes them a mixture of present and past tense, FWIW). So, anyway, Ferris Beuller and Moonlighting are not interior monologs, nor are Shakespearean asides and so forth. Not that this distinction necessarily makes a difference. Exterior monologs may serve the same function as interior monologues -- obviously traditional theater doesn't employ disembodied voice-over, so characters may speak their thoughts as a convention. Hamlet's soliloquy is external diegetic. In contrast, Ronnie's monolog at the beginning of Act 2 of The House of Blue Leaves is external non-diegetic because he is breaking the fourth wall and speaking to us as an audience. There's not much external-monolog in fiction films, since voice-over is easier to do and a well established convention. So deviating from that convention, as Ferris Bueller does, signifies something or serves some additional function, though I don't know what, whether there's any consistency from film to film, or whether it's particularly important in the big scheme of things. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
[Frameworks] First person narrative
Colleagues, Can anyone think of narrative (or storytelling) films that use the first-person, present tense (subjective) mode of address, other than in interior monologues? It must be done through speech, so “direct cinema” (a form of storytelling) doesn’t count. Examples, if there are any, can be from any tradition, commercial to experimental. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] First person narrative
On 2012-02-23, at 11:01 AM, Gene Youngblood wrote: Colleagues, Can anyone think of narrative (or storytelling) films that use the first-person, present tense (subjective) mode of address, other than in interior monologues? It must be done through speech, so “direct cinema” (a form of storytelling) doesn’t count. Examples, if there are any, can be from any tradition, commercial to experimental. A Clockwork Orange Taxi Driver Full Metal Jacket Ferris Bueller's Day Off (on-camera) Cheers, Jean-Louis___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] First person narrative (Shira Segal)
Georg by Stanton Kaye Mark T From: jaime cleeland ethnom...@yahoo.co.uk To: Experimental Film Discussion List frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [Frameworks] First person narrative (Shira Segal) The use of the camera i.e puts forth the camera as a primary means of expression for artists (S.Segal) I was recently asking Jeffrey Paull (is he still on this listserv ?) about ... what I call 'camera-dicking' weilding the camera as a phallus... can anyone give me any pointers for reading ... as far as film go I was thinking of something like Michael Powers 'Peeping Tom'. From: Shira Segal sbse...@indiana.edu To: frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Sent: Thursday, 23 February 2012, 18:40 Subject: Re: [Frameworks] First person narrative (Shira Segal) Dear Gene and Frameworks, Last semester I designed a First Person Cinema course in the Dept. of Communication and Culture at Indiana University that you might find helpful (syllabus attached as PDF). I am pleased as punch that my students continue to post on our corresponding class blog: http://firstpersoninternet.tumblr.com/ I am looking forward to hearing about further examples of first person cinema! best, Shira Segal -- PhD Film and Media Studies Dept. of Communication and Culture Indiana University Visiting Lecturer Dept. of Radio, Television and Film Northwestern University www.shirasegal.com Colleagues, Can anyone think of narrative (or storytelling) films that use the first-person, present tense (subjective) mode of address, other than in interior monologues? It must be done through speech, so ?direct cinema? (a form of storytelling) doesn?t count. Examples, if there are any, can be from any tradition, commercial to experimental. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] First person narrative
I'm guessing from the OP that only Ferris Bueller counts as what Gene is asking for, the others being examples of interior monologues. Another question, Gene, is whether you are seeking examples of this that occur as exceptions within more conventional narrative address, or only instances that dominate the narrative, or only examples where the whole story is told in this form? There would really be 4 fundamental categories of character speech here (as well as examples that blur the distinctions). It might help, Gene, if you could be more specific about your inquiry along these lines. * interior diegetic: What we hear via voiceover is what we imagine the characters are thinking, they are talking to themselves inside the world of the story. (Example: Taxi Driver) Again, I'm assuming that this is what you DON'T want. * interior non-diegetic: We only hear the characters via voice-over, but they are talking to US, breaking the 'fourth-wall' (Example: Sunset Boulevard, The Opposite of Sex) If you think I'm just plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in over your heads. I don't have a heart of gold and I *don't* grow one later, OK? But relax. There's other people a lot nicer coming up - we call them losers. * exterior diegetic We see and hear the characters speak at the camera directly, but the camera is part of the diegesis. Examples would include 'cinema verite' documentary (which differs from direct cinema in being interuptive rather than merely observational), diary films (Sherman's March, Pincus). Double Indemnity. All the 'found-footage' fictions like Blair Witch Project or where parts of the narratives are told via 'news' footage (District 9). * exterior non-diegetic We see and hear the characters speak at US directly, breaking the 4th wall, and other characters in the diegesis are not aware of these asides. (Examples: Ferris Bueller, the TV show 'Moonlighting'.) An example that blurs the last two somewhat is the TV show 'Once and Again' Wikipedia: One of the show's unique aspects was the interview sequences filmed in black and white and interspersed throughout each episode, where the characters would reveal their innermost thoughts and memories to the camera.(http://tinyurl.com/6pbmfve) These 'interviews' had no specified provenance within the diegesis. (There was no frame that a doc was being made about these people.) It was more like an omniscient narrator had the power to isolate them from their location in narrative time and space and solicit their thoughts. But the characters did not address their comments to an external AUDIENCE or acknowledge their part in a story. They spoke as if they were addressing some sort of sympathetic other who might exist in the world of the story, though not involved in the events of the story. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
