Re: [Frameworks] Tips on projecting S-8 for digital recording?

[graemehogg]

If you project on 18% grey card or paper you get more range in your 
digital files to play with colour balance and light levels etc. ie it 
produces a better gamma curve than a white screen. You can get this card 
from photographic suppliers. Its the same stuff used to make accurate 
exposure readings.



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NACHLEBEN FILM LAB AND ARCHIVE
http://www.nachleben.org.uk
CUBE CINEMA. BRISTOL
http://www.cubecinema.com/
||

On Wed, 27 Feb 2019, Christopher Ball wrote:


I had no problem with light bleed from the projector, and the further
distance meant I could be more in line with the projected image, which
helped with key stoning but more importantly made the light image more even,
and I didn't have a centre hot sport with darker edges.  
Yes, I remember now, I did not use the screen (I was shooting this in my
theatre) I used a new piece of ROSCO 216 diffusion gel, which is even white
and no texture.  I had that mounted flat on my screen.  

I was not adjusting the camera speed, I was adjusting the shutter speed. 
There are probably very few projectors that run at 24fps or 18fps even, so
matching the fps will be nearly impossible, however if you can adjust the
shutter speed you can eliminated the flicker (but you need extremely fine
shutter speed) adjustment to make it perfect).  I would run my film for
about 30 seconds to fine tune the shutter speed, then reverse the image,
then run it forward over the leader for one final check of the shutter speed
before the first image came up.  I was able to eliminate the flicker that
way.

C

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 12:56 AM Dave Tetzlaff  wrote:
  I agree that off-the-wall DIY transfers can be quite good,
  though I’ve mainly done 16mm, not S8.

  The two main things are:

  1. The camera has to be capable of running at the same frame
  rate as the projector. (e.g. 24fps, for 16mm). You may or may
  not need the frame sync feature in the camera that can fine tune
  the speed down to a fraction.

  2. The projector must be capable of hoilding its speed steady.
  This is often an issue with S* projectors, especially those with
  a mechanical variable speed nob.

  NOTE: for S8 especially, you aare unlikely to get the camera and
  projector to sync up at the speed the film was shiot at (e.g. if
  its 18fps as most are, not 24fps). As long as you can get sync
  at any speed (e.g. 24fps), you transfer at that speed – in
  effect undercranking the video copy – and then shift it back to
  the proper speed in FCP, AE, or whatever. The frame blending
  usually isn’t noticable to most viewers, and no more a detrement
  than the old school 24-into-30 of 5 blade telecines.

  As far as physical setup:

  > I then shot it onto a movie screen which has high
  reflectivity, and projected it so the image size was about 1
  foot x 1 foot, to make a nice bright image. 

  You do want a small bright image, but screem material designed
  for a larger image isn’t necessarily the best projection
  surface. You want a matte white surface with no visible texture.
  I just got a nice big white paper sheet at an art store.

  You should set things up in as close to complete darkness as
  possible. I used to do it in my basement after blocking the
  little windows.

  > I had the camera back away from the screen on a longer lens so
  it was as close to the projector angle as possible.

  The problem with that is light bleed from the projector bouncing
  into the camera lens. You want the fromt of the camera lens
  barrel in front of the projector lens barrel. Putting the camera
  as close as possible to the right side of the projector
  generally eliminates any objectionable keystoning. Mounting the
  camera on a three-way still-photo head makes for easiest
  adjustment of squaring things up. It’s hard to get viideo heads
  into the right horizen plane.


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Re: [Frameworks] Tips on projecting S-8 for digital recording?

[Christopher Ball]

Yes, but just to be clear I was talking adjusting shutter speed, not fps,
on the camera, to eliminate flicker.

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 9:20 PM Dave Tetzlaff  wrote:

> >  There are probably very few projectors that run at 24fps or 18fps even.
>
> Actually 16mm projectors are pretty tight at 24fps. I did lots of 100’
> roll transfers with a standard Pageant into a Canon XH-A1, and never had to
> fiddle with the A1’s “Clear Scan” setting. After all, old-school telecine
> projectors were only different from standard models by virtue of the
> 5-blade shutter, and they ran steady enough to work with NTSC cameras that
> had no fine tune adjustments whatsoever.
>
> My point is that a camera that has a setting for 24fps, but doesn’t have
> any fine tune option, MIGHT work OK with a projector running at 24fps…
> especially if it’s a fairly short tranfer run… Or it might not work. I just
> wouldn’t run out and try acquire a camera with a fine tune adjustment
> without testing some less expensive alternative that might be closer at
> hand…
>
> As I noted, I’d be more worried that the S8 projector wouldn’t run steady
> enough. That was the issue when I tried some S8 with a little Chinon
> projector I had with a variable speed knob. I thought I’d be able to adjust
> the projector speed to sync with the video, but I couldn’t get it to sit on
> the sweet aspot, and even if I got close, it drifted in both directions. I
> figured a more hefty projector designed for sounfd film would probably not
> drift so much, at least, but i never had occasion to try that out.
>
> I’m guessing that for most folks a DIY transfer is only practical if you
> can do it with available gear, and not if you have to go out and buy a
> different projector and different video camera…
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Re: [Frameworks] Tips on projecting S-8 for digital recording?

[Dave Tetzlaff]

>  There are probably very few projectors that run at 24fps or 18fps even.

Actually 16mm projectors are pretty tight at 24fps. I did lots of 100’ roll 
transfers with a standard Pageant into a Canon XH-A1, and never had to fiddle 
with the A1’s “Clear Scan” setting. After all, old-school telecine projectors 
were only different from standard models by virtue of the 5-blade shutter, and 
they ran steady enough to work with NTSC cameras that had no fine tune 
adjustments whatsoever.

My point is that a camera that has a setting for 24fps, but doesn’t have any 
fine tune option, MIGHT work OK with a projector running at 24fps… especially 
if it’s a fairly short tranfer run… Or it might not work. I just wouldn’t run 
out and try acquire a camera with a fine tune adjustment without testing some 
less expensive alternative that might be closer at hand…

As I noted, I’d be more worried that the S8 projector wouldn’t run steady 
enough. That was the issue when I tried some S8 with a little Chinon projector 
I had with a variable speed knob. I thought I’d be able to adjust the projector 
speed to sync with the video, but I couldn’t get it to sit on the sweet aspot, 
and even if I got close, it drifted in both directions. I figured a more hefty 
projector designed for sounfd film would probably not drift so much, at least, 
but i never had occasion to try that out.

I’m guessing that for most folks a DIY transfer is only practical if you can do 
it with available gear, and not if you have to go out and buy a different 
projector and different video camera… 
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Re: [Frameworks] Tips on projecting S-8 for digital recording?

[Rob Gawthrop]

I concur with both pieces of advice, particularly having the projector as far 
back as possible and the camera further back from the projector.  I would add 
that high grade A3 print paper works well as a low-budget screen.

Rob

> On 27 Feb 2019, at 13:03, Christopher Ball  wrote:
> 
> I had no problem with light bleed from the projector, and the further 
> distance meant I could be more in line with the projected image, which helped 
> with key stoning but more importantly made the light image more even, and I 
> didn't have a centre hot sport with darker edges.  
> 
> Yes, I remember now, I did not use the screen (I was shooting this in my 
> theatre) I used a new piece of ROSCO 216 diffusion gel, which is even white 
> and no texture.  I had that mounted flat on my screen.  
> 
> I was not adjusting the camera speed, I was adjusting the shutter speed.  
> There are probably very few projectors that run at 24fps or 18fps even, so 
> matching the fps will be nearly impossible, however if you can adjust the 
> shutter speed you can eliminated the flicker (but you need extremely fine 
> shutter speed) adjustment to make it perfect).  I would run my film for about 
> 30 seconds to fine tune the shutter speed, then reverse the image, then run 
> it forward over the leader for one final check of the shutter speed before 
> the first image came up.  I was able to eliminate the flicker that way.
> 
> C
> 
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 12:56 AM Dave Tetzlaff  > wrote:
> I agree that off-the-wall DIY transfers can be quite good, though I’ve mainly 
> done 16mm, not S8.
> 
> The two main things are: 
> 
> 1. The camera has to be capable of running at the same frame rate as the 
> projector. (e.g. 24fps, for 16mm). You may or may not need the frame sync 
> feature in the camera that can fine tune the speed down to a fraction. 
> 
> 2. The projector must be capable of hoilding its speed steady. This is often 
> an issue with S* projectors, especially those with a mechanical variable 
> speed nob.
> 
> NOTE: for S8 especially, you aare unlikely to get the camera and projector to 
> sync up at the speed the film was shiot at (e.g. if its 18fps as most are, 
> not 24fps). As long as you can get sync at any speed (e.g. 24fps), you 
> transfer at that speed – in effect undercranking the video copy – and then 
> shift it back to the proper speed in FCP, AE, or whatever. The frame blending 
> usually isn’t noticable to most viewers, and no more a detrement than the old 
> school 24-into-30 of 5 blade telecines.
> 
> As far as physical setup:
> 
> > I then shot it onto a movie screen which has high reflectivity, and 
> > projected it so the image size was about 1 foot x 1 foot, to make a nice 
> > bright image.  
> 
> You do want a small bright image, but screem material designed for a larger 
> image isn’t necessarily the best projection surface. You want a matte white 
> surface with no visible texture. I just got a nice big white paper sheet at 
> an art store.
> 
> You should set things up in as close to complete darkness as possible. I used 
> to do it in my basement after blocking the little windows.
> 
> > I had the camera back away from the screen on a longer lens so it was as 
> > close to the projector angle as possible.
> 
> The problem with that is light bleed from the projector bouncing into the 
> camera lens. You want the fromt of the camera lens barrel in front of the 
> projector lens barrel. Putting the camera as close as possible to the right 
> side of the projector generally eliminates any objectionable keystoning. 
> Mounting the camera on a three-way still-photo head makes for easiest 
> adjustment of squaring things up. It’s hard to get viideo heads into the 
> right horizen plane.
> 
> 
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com 
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks 
> 
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> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
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Re: [Frameworks] Tips on projecting S-8 for digital recording?

[Christopher Ball]

I had no problem with light bleed from the projector, and the further
distance meant I could be more in line with the projected image, which
helped with key stoning but more importantly made the light image more
even, and I didn't have a centre hot sport with darker edges.

Yes, I remember now, I did not use the screen (I was shooting this in my
theatre) I used a new piece of ROSCO 216 diffusion gel, which is even white
and no texture.  I had that mounted flat on my screen.

I was not adjusting the camera speed, I was adjusting the shutter speed.
There are probably very few projectors that run at 24fps or 18fps even, so
matching the fps will be nearly impossible, however if you can adjust the
shutter speed you can eliminated the flicker (but you need extremely fine
shutter speed) adjustment to make it perfect).  I would run my film for
about 30 seconds to fine tune the shutter speed, then reverse the image,
then run it forward over the leader for one final check of the shutter
speed before the first image came up.  I was able to eliminate the flicker
that way.

C

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 12:56 AM Dave Tetzlaff  wrote:

> I agree that off-the-wall DIY transfers can be quite good, though I’ve
> mainly done 16mm, not S8.
>
> The two main things are:
>
> 1. The camera has to be capable of running at the same frame rate as the
> projector. (e.g. 24fps, for 16mm). You may or may not need the frame sync
> feature in the camera that can fine tune the speed down to a fraction.
>
> 2. The projector must be capable of hoilding its speed steady. This is
> often an issue with S* projectors, especially those with a mechanical
> variable speed nob.
>
> NOTE: for S8 especially, you aare unlikely to get the camera and projector
> to sync up at the speed the film was shiot at (e.g. if its 18fps as most
> are, not 24fps). As long as you can get sync at any speed (e.g. 24fps), you
> transfer at that speed – in effect undercranking the video copy – and then
> shift it back to the proper speed in FCP, AE, or whatever. The frame
> blending usually isn’t noticable to most viewers, and no more a detrement
> than the old school 24-into-30 of 5 blade telecines.
>
> As far as physical setup:
>
> > I then shot it onto a movie screen which has high reflectivity, and
> projected it so the image size was about 1 foot x 1 foot, to make a nice
> bright image.
>
> You do want a small bright image, but screem material designed for a
> larger image isn’t necessarily the best projection surface. You want a
> matte white surface with no visible texture. I just got a nice big white
> paper sheet at an art store.
>
> You should set things up in as close to complete darkness as possible. I
> used to do it in my basement after blocking the little windows.
>
> > I had the camera back away from the screen on a longer lens so it was as
> close to the projector angle as possible.
>
> The problem with that is light bleed from the projector bouncing into the
> camera lens. You want the fromt of the camera lens barrel in front of the
> projector lens barrel. Putting the camera as close as possible to the right
> side of the projector generally eliminates any objectionable keystoning.
> Mounting the camera on a three-way still-photo head makes for easiest
> adjustment of squaring things up. It’s hard to get viideo heads into the
> right horizen plane.
>
>
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
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Re: [Frameworks] Tips on projecting S-8 for digital recording?

[Dave Tetzlaff]

I agree that off-the-wall DIY transfers can be quite good, though I’ve mainly 
done 16mm, not S8.

The two main things are: 

1. The camera has to be capable of running at the same frame rate as the 
projector. (e.g. 24fps, for 16mm). You may or may not need the frame sync 
feature in the camera that can fine tune the speed down to a fraction. 

2. The projector must be capable of hoilding its speed steady. This is often an 
issue with S* projectors, especially those with a mechanical variable speed nob.

NOTE: for S8 especially, you aare unlikely to get the camera and projector to 
sync up at the speed the film was shiot at (e.g. if its 18fps as most are, not 
24fps). As long as you can get sync at any speed (e.g. 24fps), you transfer at 
that speed – in effect undercranking the video copy – and then shift it back to 
the proper speed in FCP, AE, or whatever. The frame blending usually isn’t 
noticable to most viewers, and no more a detrement than the old school 
24-into-30 of 5 blade telecines.

As far as physical setup:

> I then shot it onto a movie screen which has high reflectivity, and projected 
> it so the image size was about 1 foot x 1 foot, to make a nice bright image.  

You do want a small bright image, but screem material designed for a larger 
image isn’t necessarily the best projection surface. You want a matte white 
surface with no visible texture. I just got a nice big white paper sheet at an 
art store.

You should set things up in as close to complete darkness as possible. I used 
to do it in my basement after blocking the little windows.

> I had the camera back away from the screen on a longer lens so it was as 
> close to the projector angle as possible.

The problem with that is light bleed from the projector bouncing into the 
camera lens. You want the fromt of the camera lens barrel in front of the 
projector lens barrel. Putting the camera as close as possible to the right 
side of the projector generally eliminates any objectionable keystoning. 
Mounting the camera on a three-way still-photo head makes for easiest 
adjustment of squaring things up. It’s hard to get viideo heads into the right 
horizen plane.


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Re: [Frameworks] Tips on projecting S-8 for digital recording?

[Christopher Ball]

I used a panasonic AF100 (not a DSLR) which has the ability to adjust
shutter by 1/10th of a degree, so you can eliminate flicker by tweaking the
shutter speed.  I then shot it onto a movie screen which has high
reflectivity, and projected it so the image size was about 1 foot x 1 foot,
to make a nice bright image.  My transfer turned out quite good...not film
scanner professional quality, but better than your average photo store
transfers.  I had the camera back away from the screen on a longer lens so
it was as close to the projector angle as possible.

Christopher

On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 5:28 PM Robert Withers 
wrote:

> Hi all,
> I plan to get my Elmo ST-600 S-8 projector lubed and running — any tips
> for recording digital with a mirrorless camera. I have a lot of S-8 to
> convert.
> Are there any especially useful devices or screens?
> Or just get the camera close to the projector to minimize keystoning?
> Thanks,
> Robert
>
>
> Robert Withers
> withe...@earthlink.net
> 202 West 80 St #5W NYNY 10024
>
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[Frameworks] Tips on projecting S-8 for digital recording?

[Robert Withers]

Hi all, 
I plan to get my Elmo ST-600 S-8 projector lubed and running — any tips for 
recording digital with a mirrorless camera. I have a lot of S-8 to convert. 
Are there any especially useful devices or screens?
Or just get the camera close to the projector to minimize keystoning?
Thanks,
Robert


Robert Withers
withe...@earthlink.net
202 West 80 St #5W NYNY 10024

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