Re: GPL version 4
Please. The GPL v4 mail was started by a troll. I am surprised that anyone from the linux camp was taken in and keeps feeding the troll. There's no GPL v4 (yet) and anyone who thinks there is, is a moron. Now, can we leave a dead thread dead? Zombies should be exterminated on sight. Brainz.. -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: control character file names
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008, Noah wrote: Hi there, there is a blank directory that I cant seem to view. I believe the directory is a '^M'. can somebody please explain how I can see filenames and directories containing control characters. Also how do I rename the directory with 'mv'? There are various ways to handle this. # this will show the file with special characters escaped ls | cat -v # this will put the output of ls into a file that can then be # edited with vim so one could insert ``mv '' before the funny # file name, and `` newname'' after it. ls tmpfile As others have mentioned, using a graphical file manager can make it easy as well. Bill -- INTERNET: b...@celestial.com Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC URL: http://www.celestial.com/ PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way Voice: (206) 236-1676 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820 Fax:(206) 232-9186 The end move in politics is always to pick up a gun. -- Buckminster Fuller ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: imagemagick convert: japanese text broken in freebsd
Giorgos Keramidas writes: Some of us disagree with the 'off topic police'. If you have questions about programs that _run_ on FreeBSD, please keep asking here. Nothing has changed. Umm ... while one can ask those questions here (questions@) and hore to get answered, I believe the sanctioned forum is po...@. It's rather lower traffic, which is not a bad thing. Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: imagemagick convert: japanese text broken in freebsd
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Robert Huff roberth...@rcn.com wrote: Giorgos Keramidas writes: Some of us disagree with the 'off topic police'. If you have questions about programs that _run_ on FreeBSD, please keep asking here. Nothing has changed. Umm ... while one can ask those questions here (questions@) and hore to get answered, I believe the sanctioned forum is po...@. It's rather lower traffic, which is not a bad thing. I agree that they probably *should* be asked on ports@, but because it is lower traffic, there is a lesser chance of getting a solution to a problem. I didn't see any clear definition on the lists.freebsd.org site stating questions@ was base only. -- Glen Barber ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: imagemagick convert: japanese text broken in freebsd
Glen Barber writes: Umm ... while one can ask those questions here (questions@) and hore to get answered, I believe the sanctioned forum is po...@. It's rather lower traffic, which is not a bad thing. I agree that they probably *should* be asked on ports@, but because it is lower traffic, there is a lesser chance of getting a solution to a problem. Not necessarily. I've heard of knowledgable poeple who are on ports@ but not questi...@. Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: control character file names
* Use a file manager. I often use `dired-mode' inside an Emacs session to move around, copy, re-organize, rename or delete files. Any file manager that can display several character sets at once will do fine :) Hey there Giorgos, I'd love to use emacs but I go into 'dired-mode' and I try to rename the '^M' directory and receive an error from emacs. The error claims file-error Renaming no such file or directory /mnt/mybook-music/^M /mnt/mybook-music/Music2 What do I do? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 08:57:28PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: bad (TM). No -- at *any* level: you are wrong. for example you WILL like to control what oficially your employees ktalk about your company. That's not censorship -- it's a nondisclosure agreement. -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Thomas McCauley: The measure of a man's real character is what he would do if he knew he would never be found out. pgpeSrRuXHyYn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 12:26:21PM -0800, prad wrote: On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 12:43:02 -0700 Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: I'll provide a technical example, as opposed to a social example, so maybe you'll be able to understand my point ... good illustrative examples, chad! i think moderation has value if it is done reasonably. for instance, people who talk about foreign currency values on a freebsd list should be watched very closely. I think that can be handled quite easily by community social pressure, and moderation would just set a precedent for it's someone else's job. woj made a good point in another post i think in that he's happy helping beginners who really do wish to learn. i know i've come across some who think the world owes them everything and make ridiculous demands on a list (not to mention ot posts - and they aren't even trying to sell you anything!). however, in general i like giorgos' comment the best that he was helped a decade ago and he's returning that favor. so in that respect, i agree with your 'false positives' concern - innocent till proven guilty! Thank you. anyone know if there are moderators for this list? i know there are some very nice people who keep watch. once i messaged the test list with a ports question (i was having trouble emailing this one - so i was testing to see if there was some problem in general), and a very considerate person from freebsd.org, Remko Lodder, emailed me asking if i knew that i was emailing the test list. i found it really decent that people look out for others here! Me too -- and I'm glad you weren't told to go away and email a different list because ports questions are off topic for the test list. -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Quoth Martin Luther: Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women? pgp2GVQt5JEEZ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 09:38:29PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: without moderation it's a mess. I've seen more mess in response to your entirely unwelcoming manner than ever in response to anything you call off topic in some of your examples. It's nice people like to help other people, but it's bad it helps them on that lists with OFF-TOPIC problems. That might be a valid concern if your notion of off topic didn't include things that pretty much everyone else seems to think is on topic enough to fit into this list. i don't mean moderation like removing one opinions and not others. But removing off-topic messages, that are 95% now or more. 1. When moderation is increased, so too are false positives -- like removing statements of opinion that shouldn't be removed. 2. Your idea of off topic seems to include stuff relevant to FreeBSD. -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Quoth Bjarne Stroustrup: An ugly operation should have an ugly syntactic form. pgpAWYilAIkwq.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:49:58PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: you're reply to another post: If you wish you can call me fuhrer ;) but iwth Gestapo you certainly got too far. :D good response to that unfortunate eruption of enthusiasm. i think it's a problem of fear about past consorship in many countries. But this is completely different things. Moderation is not censorship like that, as EVERYONE can create it's own mailing lists :) moderation would definitely not be a bad thing in some situations! and exactly is needed on that group. it would be enough that moderator's job will be just removing posts that classify to NTG. NOTHING else. As long as neither you, nor anyone that thinks like you, is in charge of moderation, it might not be a *complete* disaster. -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Quoth Peter Norvig: Use the most natural notation available to solve the problem, and then worry about writing an interpreter for that notation. pgpCAvobQoWk7.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 08:04:18PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: than not you discourage beginners from getting interested in this i don't discourage beginners that want to learn. Most of them don't. Considering that, the moment someone shows up and says I'm a Windows user, but I'm thinking about trying out FreeBSD, you immediately assume the person doesn't want to learn without bothering to read any further, I don't think you actually have any way of knowing whether anyone wants to learn most of the time. -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Quoth Colin McFadyen: Unix is not an 'a-ha' experience, it is more of a 'holy-shit' experience. pgp0ujXW5weRC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 11:03:29AM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: You remind me of a tech I once worked with who thought all customers were stupid. Maybe they were... the difference is that FreeBSD is free software. or is not? Perhaps you are not familiar with the term analogy. RTFD(ictionary). -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] John W. Russell: People point. Sometimes that's just easier. They also use words. Sometimes that's just easier. For the same reasons that pointing has not made words obsolete, there will always be command lines. pgp5dpV91VMEd.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 04:49:28PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: Off topic=not about FreeBSD OS. I'm amazed that you seem to think that making FreeBSD do what one wants it to do isn't a FreeBSD topic. exactly... when is something part of FBSD and when not? what is base system ~ whatis 'base system' base system: nothing appropriate Maybe what we need isn't for you to keep complaining about 70% of the very helpful list traffic, thus producing another 5% of the list traffic yourself (directly, and indirectly through annoyed responses to you), but for someone to come up with a base-sys...@freebsd.org list where you can hang out and be happy. -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Power corrupts. The command line corrupts absolutely. pgpkfKIy3jlMp.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 09:42:32PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: probably that they would create competitors somehow, magically, without providing any information that directly encourages competition for their hardware. If they wanted to provide per-incident paid software support or simply charge people extra for drivers, *then* I could see this being a problem, but I haven't seen a whole lot of that kind of rent-seeking behavior from graphics adapter vendors. i don't see any problem. There is a product - for example Nvidia powersuckers^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hfull 3D accellerators. Their can this, that, blah, blah and blah, they don't have FreeBSD support. There are other products, they can this that blah blah and have FreeBSD support. You need blah blah and blah under FreeBSD, you don't buy nvidia. end of topic. I've responded to this attitude of yours in another subthread. I don't remember exactly where, but I mentioned terms like laptop and package deal (or something to that effect) a bit. Please address that before you go bandying this weak argument around any more. -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Quoth William Gibson: The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed. pgpoBR5HY02rZ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 02:31:17PM +1000, Da Rock wrote: What I can't equate with is why its acceptable for intel to do the same... check if_iwi and its firmware. No other wifi device (that I'm aware of- at least they'd be in the minority anyway) works this way. The excuse is fcc regs- I doubt that... Atheros drivers used closed firmware until very recently. Some of them still do. And before anyone defends intel: I've spent a lot of time wasted on making their stupid nics to work in windows, I usually just flick em and put in a rl nic. The cpus are shit as well- I've had no end of trouble with them, plus too hot, power hungry etc. Alas, finding a decent notebook with an alternative has been to no avail... Actually, Pentium M processors may well be the best x86-compatible CPUs of their generation -- low power consumption relative to the competition, and the best performance per dollar in their class. Pentium 4, though, certainly sucks. The first generation of Celeron processors were kick-ass x86-compatible CPUs for their time, too -- actually better than Intel intended them to be. Weird how that happens. -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Quoth William Gibson: The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed. pgp3j5UI6c2Fo.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 02:50:00PM +1000, Da Rock wrote: On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 14:25 -0700, Chad Perrin wrote: I think he's trying to say that open source drivers would be preferable, and to develop them we'd need the hardware specs so we'd have a target toward which to develop drivers. Of course, preferable is my choice of term -- he seems to be more of the opinion that anything that isn't strictly open source should just be shunned, out of hand. While it would be nice if that was a practical option, it isn't really, at this point. Perhaps he'd be more at home in the Fedora community which are adamant about that too... :P Perhaps so. OpenBSD is pretty adamant about that, too -- more so than Fedora, I think. In fact, the OpenBSD project seems to be the most adamant open source OS project, about keeping everything open (except the format of the installer, for some inconsistent as hell damned reason), that I've seen. Actually, patents are publicly documented by definition -- we're just not *allowed* to use it, once it has been patented, without permission. The sort of thing they don't want to divulge is trade secrets, which you meantioned -- not patents, which you also mentioned. For some reason, though, some hardware vendors seem inclined to use patents as an excuse for keeping secrets, which never made much sense to me. IANAL, though I read about the law from time to time. Ok, so moving forward on this point: How exactly does this help in developing drivers for FreeBSD? Patents are ideas- right? So wouldn't this mean that it would still require guessing and estimation of what should happen and how to do it? The problem with open source driver development is lack of documented implementation details and the illegality of reproducing anything covered by patent -- not lack of patent documentation. You also mention that they're publicly accessible- how? Whats the portal and how would you search for required device? I don't do patent searches regularly, but I'd probably start with the US Patent Office site. Okay, I did a Google search for USPTO (United States Patent and Trademark Office), clicked the first link, clicked through a menu item, and found this page: http://patft.uspto.gov/ Unfortunately, anything covered by a patent, as I hinted above, is verboten. -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Quoth Martin Luther: Do not suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused. Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women? pgpbuS5vKSnXc.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
prad wrote: On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:54:19 +0100 (CET) Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: in my practice rejecting part of customers (those who are really idiots) make sense. you get say 20% less money for 10 times less work. exactly! proper advocacy on a 'free' (or otherwise) system doesn't mean accommodating ridiculous demands. there needs to be a certain level of sincerity on part of the customers. only the right customers are always right. Heh. The customer is /always/ right, even when they're wrong. The difference is that you give the idiot customers exactly what they ask for, and the good customers what they actually need Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 23:12:28 -0700 Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: I think that can be handled quite easily by community social pressure, and moderation would just set a precedent for it's someone else's job. i don't think that has to happen at all. personally i think self-moderation is best, followed by moderation (which i haven't found to be a bad thing). here the former seems to be dominant because of the quality of people on the list, so it is quite sufficient. -- In friendship, prad ... with you on your journey Towards Freedom http://www.towardsfreedom.com (website) Information, Inspiration, Imagination - truly a site for soaring I's ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:03:55 + Matthew Seaman m.sea...@infracaninophile.co.uk wrote: Heh. The customer is /always/ right, even when they're wrong. The difference is that you give the idiot customers exactly what they ask for, and the good customers what they actually need now that is a business model!! if i ever go into business again, i'll have to remember your wise words :D -- In friendship, prad ... with you on your journey Towards Freedom http://www.towardsfreedom.com (website) Information, Inspiration, Imagination - truly a site for soaring I's ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors
On Sun, 2008-12-14 at 23:53 -0700, Chad Perrin wrote: On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 02:50:00PM +1000, Da Rock wrote: On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 14:25 -0700, Chad Perrin wrote: I think he's trying to say that open source drivers would be preferable, and to develop them we'd need the hardware specs so we'd have a target toward which to develop drivers. Of course, preferable is my choice of term -- he seems to be more of the opinion that anything that isn't strictly open source should just be shunned, out of hand. While it would be nice if that was a practical option, it isn't really, at this point. Perhaps he'd be more at home in the Fedora community which are adamant about that too... :P Perhaps so. OpenBSD is pretty adamant about that, too -- more so than Fedora, I think. In fact, the OpenBSD project seems to be the most adamant open source OS project, about keeping everything open (except the format of the installer, for some inconsistent as hell damned reason), that I've seen. Actually, patents are publicly documented by definition -- we're just not *allowed* to use it, once it has been patented, without permission. The sort of thing they don't want to divulge is trade secrets, which you meantioned -- not patents, which you also mentioned. For some reason, though, some hardware vendors seem inclined to use patents as an excuse for keeping secrets, which never made much sense to me. IANAL, though I read about the law from time to time. Ok, so moving forward on this point: How exactly does this help in developing drivers for FreeBSD? Patents are ideas- right? So wouldn't this mean that it would still require guessing and estimation of what should happen and how to do it? The problem with open source driver development is lack of documented implementation details and the illegality of reproducing anything covered by patent -- not lack of patent documentation. You also mention that they're publicly accessible- how? Whats the portal and how would you search for required device? I don't do patent searches regularly, but I'd probably start with the US Patent Office site. Okay, I did a Google search for USPTO (United States Patent and Trademark Office), clicked the first link, clicked through a menu item, and found this page: http://patft.uspto.gov/ Unfortunately, anything covered by a patent, as I hinted above, is verboten. But if I remember my legal and ethics course correctly if you can arrive at a conclusion through your own research then your reasonably clear. For example, the drivers are closed source but the hardware itself is an entirely separate issue. So if you can create your own drivers by your own research into how the hardware is setup then the drivers created could licensed under your own terms- open source or otherwise. The drivers and hardware may operate together but are separate items of creativity, therefore do not operate under the same patent. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: imagemagick convert: japanese text broken in freebsd
On Sun 14 Dec 2008 at 19:45:24 PST Robert Huff wrote: Glen Barber writes: Umm ... while one can ask those questions here (questions@) and hore to get answered, I believe the sanctioned forum is po...@. It's rather lower traffic, which is not a bad thing. I agree that they probably *should* be asked on ports@, but because it is lower traffic, there is a lesser chance of getting a solution to a problem. Not necessarily. I've heard of knowledgable poeple who are on ports@ but not questi...@. The conversations on ports@ seem to be mostly concerned with the needs of port maintainers rather than the users of ports. If you have problems getting a port to build or a package added, it feels like the right place to get help. But I'm not sure whether it's the place for questions that come up after the initial install. questions@ seems to be the place for those. I haven't been on either list very long, however, and I could have been misled by a small sample size. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: GPL version 4
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:12:40AM +1300, Mark Kirkwood wrote:
valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 05:31:15 +0800, Morton Harrow said:
I see with pain in my heart that the GPLv3 doesn't actually give the
users of GPLv3 software the liberty and freedom the FSF has been
fighting for. Instead they are forced to play by the strict set of
terms the GPLv3 provides.
You missed an important philosophical point. In Richard Stallman's world
view,
it isn't the user's freedoms that matter, it's the *software*s freedom.
I don't think it is that bad - the intent is for the software to be
freely available for *people* to use. It is actually about our freedom.
If so, it's a failure.
I think I still have a stack of Ubuntu CDs that I cannot legally
distribute because I don't have the source, and I don't know exactly
where to find it, either.
My freedom to use Kororaa Linux with all its multimedia support was
severely curtailed by GNU/FSF legal threats -- and, while I don't
actually care to use Kororaa personally, that doesn't change the fact
that my freedom to make that decision for myself has been somewhat
damaged.
The problem is that Stallman and friends have very strange notions about
what constitutes freedom -- strange, but all too common.
--
Chad Perrin [ content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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