Re: Effing HAL
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:15:08 + Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, thanks for that. I knew about that file, but don't often read it. There's even more to the saga - Xkblayout doesn't work. This whole HAL thing stinks horribly. IF X is built with HAL basically certain options specified in xorg.conf no longer work. HAL thinks it knows best. But it doesn't, cos it's broken. Xkblayout doesn't work because you need to use fdi files now. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=948154 has some details - essentially you need to put some XML in /usr/local/etc/hal/fdi/policy/ that tells it what layout to use. It's rather frustrating that information is scattered in forums - I couldn't see any official-looking articles on configuring it. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
Bruce Cran wrote: On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:15:08 + Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, thanks for that. I knew about that file, but don't often read it. There's even more to the saga - Xkblayout doesn't work. This whole HAL thing stinks horribly. IF X is built with HAL basically certain options specified in xorg.conf no longer work. HAL thinks it knows best. But it doesn't, cos it's broken. Xkblayout doesn't work because you need to use fdi files now. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=948154 has some details - essentially you need to put some XML in /usr/local/etc/hal/fdi/policy/ that tells it what layout to use. It's rather frustrating that information is scattered in forums - I couldn't see any official-looking articles on configuring it. You were not looking in the right place then: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/x-config.html ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
--On Thursday, October 29, 2009 16:55:58 -0500 Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: I know this isn't specifically a FreeBSD problem, HAL being needed by X. But the flipping installer should enable it when I selected X flipping User from the install options. My little upgrade has now turned from a bit of fun into a saga that I don't want to go through again. I had to get this off my chest. It was, as they say, doing my head in. Far be it from me to pile on when you're already so frustrated, but I run into these sorts of problems myself from time to time. It's usually because I didn't bother to read /usr/ports/UPDATING first, which in this case might have warned you. 20090123: AFFECTS: users of x11-servers/xorg-server AUTHOR: rnol...@freebsd.org I hate to say this; but I carefully read the UPDATING log you quoted and used the solution suggested - which did not work for me. It sounds like there is some special extra installation required - and I have not found the details on it. This is a very old problem. I worked on this problem until I got frustrated and installed Linux. I hate it and look forward to this problem in FBSD being fixed so I can go back. USB stuff - and ethernet divices don't work worth squat in Linux. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
Far be it from me to pile on when you're already so frustrated, but I run into these sorts of problems myself from time to time. It's usually because I didn't bother to read /usr/ports/UPDATING first, which in this case might have warned you. 20090123: AFFECTS: users of x11-servers/xorg-server AUTHOR: rnol...@freebsd.org I hate to say this; but I carefully read the UPDATING log you quoted and used the solution suggested - which did not work for me. It sounds like there is some special extra installation required - and I have not found the details on it. This is a very old problem. I worked on this problem until I got frustrated and installed Linux. I hate it and look forward to this problem in FBSD being fixed so I can go back. USB stuff - and ethernet divices don't work worth squat in Linux. Well that particular entry isn't necessary as noted by the next one in UPDATING. Is it possible your doing it wrong? It's worked for me on many different installations and hardware platforms. All I see on this thread is griping with no error logs or configuration files. It's almost like the complainers don't want their issues addressed so they can keep on keeping on. I see various complaints about HAL using too much memory. Exactly how is that determined? I hope top wasn't used to make that evaluation. Is xorg documentation fragmented? Sure, I hear you. That's why I use this: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/books/handbook/x-install.html dual-screens either twin-view or http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Xorg_RandR_1.2 Since switching to HAL, I have never had an issue with mouse or keyboard. Prior to HAL, setup was more of an issue and stable once configured. Now setup is no issue, and it's stable. Seems like a positive move. Only issue I experienced was migrating from xorg non-HAL to xorg HAL. Once I got my head around the fact that this is easier, it was no longer an issue. Provide xorg-server is current, I've yet to see that fail. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009, Neil Short wrote: 20090123: AFFECTS: users of x11-servers/xorg-server AUTHOR: rnol...@freebsd.org I hate to say this; but I carefully read the UPDATING log you quoted and used the solution suggested - which did not work for me. It was a temporary solution to a short-term bug. The very next entry: 20090124: AFFECTS: users of x11-servers/xorg-server, sysutils/hal AUTHOR: rnol...@freebsd.org sysutils/hal has been updated and should now properly detect mice for in X.org. Use of AllowEmptyInput should no longer be needed for most users and moused should now work fine. Like the forum entries with the obsolete information on installing Flash, it keeps coming back. It sounds like there is some special extra installation required - and I have not found the details on it. The Handbook entry on X configuration is mostly complete and correct: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/x-config.html -Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota USA___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
I've read the responses and comments here, so don't think I'm ignoring anyone because I haven't responded directly. I rebuilt xorg-server without HAL. I killed hal stone dead and started up the new (i.e. old-skool) xorg. It all works fine. My mouse and keyboard work as specified in the xorg.conf file, rather than in the new-fangled xml way of doing things or adding setxkbmap to my xinitrc file. I am also 18MB of RAM better off. Specifically for Adam, who asks a rhetorical question about HAL, memory usage and top. The answer for me is 18MB too much. My advice to anyone who has problems with X and HAL - rebuild xorg-server without HAL (it doesn't take long), then start from that base. I have to say this HAL way of doing things is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Sure X can be a bit horrible to configure, but HAL itself is ugly, resource hungry and doesn't work 100%. It seems to be an example of supposedly making things easier, except when it doesn't work. Life is a calm blue ocean once again. MF. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: I've read the responses and comments here, so don't think I'm ignoring anyone because I haven't responded directly. I rebuilt xorg-server without HAL. I killed hal stone dead and started up the new (i.e. old-skool) xorg. It all works fine. My mouse and keyboard work as specified in the xorg.conf file, rather than in the new-fangled xml way of doing things or adding setxkbmap to my xinitrc file. I am also 18MB of RAM better off. Specifically for Adam, who asks a rhetorical question about HAL, memory usage and top. The answer for me is 18MB too much. No my point was top is not accurate measure of HAL's memory usage. HAL has shared library's just like many other applications. My advice to anyone who has problems with X and HAL - rebuild xorg-server without HAL (it doesn't take long), then start from that base. I have to say this HAL way of doing things is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Sure X can be a bit horrible to configure, but HAL itself is ugly, resource hungry and doesn't work 100%. It seems to be an example of supposedly making things easier, except when it doesn't work. This is only because of your misinterpretation of data and failure to RTFM. Life is a calm blue ocean once again. MF. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:04:18 -0500 Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com replied: On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: I've read the responses and comments here, so don't think I'm ignoring anyone because I haven't responded directly. I rebuilt xorg-server without HAL. I killed hal stone dead and started up the new (i.e. old-skool) xorg. It all works fine. My mouse and keyboard work as specified in the xorg.conf file, rather than in the new-fangled xml way of doing things or adding setxkbmap to my xinitrc file. I am also 18MB of RAM better off. Specifically for Adam, who asks a rhetorical question about HAL, memory usage and top. The answer for me is 18MB too much. No my point was top is not accurate measure of HAL's memory usage. HAL has shared library's just like many other applications. My advice to anyone who has problems with X and HAL - rebuild xorg-server without HAL (it doesn't take long), then start from that base. I have to say this HAL way of doing things is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Sure X can be a bit horrible to configure, but HAL itself is ugly, resource hungry and doesn't work 100%. It seems to be an example of supposedly making things easier, except when it doesn't work. This is only because of your misinterpretation of data and failure to RTFM. Once you have to start reading a manual to create a configuration to get basic keyboard to work, things are getting seriously out of hand. A common user should not be required to have a working knowledge of XHTML and obscure directives in order to get a piece of equipment working. -- Jerry ges...@yahoo.com |=== |=== |=== |=== | If you cannot in the long run tell everyone what you have been doing, your doing was worthless. Edwin Schrodinger ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
Once you have to start reading a manual to create a configuration to get basic keyboard to work, things are getting seriously out of hand. A common user should not be required to have a working knowledge of XHTML and obscure directives in order to get a piece of equipment working. What is the model number of basic keyboard? -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
--On Friday, October 30, 2009 10:11:57 -0500 Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com wrote: Well that particular entry isn't necessary as noted by the next one in UPDATING. I suppose I should have highlighted this portion of the entry - Server 1.5.3 also really wants to configure its input devices via hald. - which goes directly to the issue the OP wrote about - namely that he was caught by surprise by the fact that hald is now used for configuring devices and his old xorg.conf file would no longer work as expected. That really was my point. -- Paul Schmehl, Senior Infosec Analyst As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. *** It is as useless to argue with those who have renounced the use of reason as to administer medication to the dead. Thomas Jefferson ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
2009/10/30 Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com No my point was top is not accurate measure of HAL's memory usage. HAL has shared library's just like many other applications. Yep, I know all about that. But it is indicative. And indeed born out by the fact that when HAL is not running I get 18MB more memory free. This is only because of your misinterpretation of data and failure to RTFM. Not entirely true. I didn't misinterpret the data - it was accurate. I didn't read the FM, but then again if HAL worked as it is meant to, I shouldn't need to. Isn't that the whole point of HAL? Starting X and finding no keyboard or mouse working is hardly what I would call success. Adam Vande More MF. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 12:34 PM, Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/10/30 Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com No my point was top is not accurate measure of HAL's memory usage. HAL has shared library's just like many other applications. Yep, I know all about that. But it is indicative. And indeed born out by the fact that when HAL is not running I get 18MB more memory free. I am unable to replicate this. This is only because of your misinterpretation of data and failure to RTFM. Not entirely true. I didn't misinterpret the data - it was accurate. I didn't read the FM, but then again if HAL worked as it is meant to, I shouldn't need to. Isn't that the whole point of HAL? Starting X and finding no keyboard or mouse working is hardly what I would call success. Nowhere have you demonstrated HAL is not working as it's meant to. This is pointless to argue about since it's so easy to debug. Simply post the X log from your original state, and the reason it didn't work will be clearly shown. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
2009/10/30 Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com I am unable to replicate this. YMMV. But I did replicate it. I measured before and after. Show us the output of top from your box with the hal processes, as I did for a start. Nowhere have you demonstrated HAL is not working as it's meant to. This is pointless to argue about since it's so easy to debug. Simply post the X log from your original state, and the reason it didn't work will be clearly shown. I disagree, and frankly I think you are ignoring facts. My old X worked fine, X with HAL did not. What can be plainer than that? Go and Google for hal problems - you will see that this is not an uncommon occurrence. It seems that the purpose of hal is to make things easier. Well it didn't for me - it made them harder. I dunno, perhaps I'm too stuck in my ways. But I've been configuring X for about 12+ years. I had the odd nightmare about 10 years ago, when I was still a noob, but not since. That is until last night, when I tried a new spoinky X+hal. Let's face it, a 3k config file which works perfectly shouldn't need to be replaced with 18MB of continuously running programs which still needs configuring. Instead of trying to say that hal works and I haven't demonstrated otherwise, actually go and look, as I did. Just Google xorg hal and you will see all kinds of probs. Google for xorg without hal for some other people's choice words on problems with hal. Reading up a little more on HAL today, it makes me laugh and cry. Here's a few bits with my take: 1. HAL .fdi files--the new Xorg configure 2. Xorg/hal works but no mouse wheel 3. Reclaim your sanity from Xorg and HAL 4. Fed up with Xorg + hal mess 5. X.Org is well on its way to getting rid of lots of xorg.conf magic and moving it into obscure elements of HAL My interpretation: 1. Great, Xorg doesn't need a config file, but to make it do what you want you will need config FILES. 2. HAL detection doesn't work properly. Wheel mice are very common. 3. HAL is insane. 4. It's not just me. 5. Why make something obscure? Is obscure better? Look, I appreciate the good intentions behind HAL, to make X setup very easy and automatic for as many people as possible. But when it doesn't work properly, it's no good saying that it does. If people still have problems with X/HAL/mice/keyboards/keymaps then it should not be called success. We haven't really gained anything. We have just from learning how to configure X in Xorg.conf to HAL in other places. Some people would call that re-inventing the wheel. -- Adam Vande More MF. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
I just saw this on my gentoo list (yes, there are folks complaining about HAL there as well). I don't know anything about this project other than it's intentions are to build a replacement for HAL. http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/DeviceKit ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
I was part of this and the x11 mailing list during the period in which most made the switch to hal. I am fully aware of all the complaining which occurred. There was a bug which made the issue difficult. I experienced it, the workaround was available nearly immediately and fixed soon after. Nearly of the complaints were due to that bug, or misconfiguration just as you are experiencing. The bug was basically moused and hal fighting over who was polling the mouse while X was running. top is a horrible method of measuring memory usage by a process. procstat(1) will give you a much better picture, I suggest you challenge your assumptions and explore that path. However since you asked here is the diff. w/ HAL: CPU: 0.2% user, 0.0% nice, 0.0% system, 0.0% interrupt, 99.8% idle Mem: 66M Active, 43M Inact, 95M Wired, 776K Cache, 48M Buf, 1789M Free Swap: 4063M Total, 4063M Free /usr/local/etc/rc.d/hald stop had no discernible effect on usage. reboot after hald_enable=NO in /etc/rc.conf CPU: 0.0% user, 0.0% nice, 0.0% system, 0.0% interrupt, 100% idle Mem: 62M Active, 43M Inact, 93M Wired, 660K Cache, 47M Buf, 1795M Free Swap: 4063M Total, 4063M Free -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
--On Friday, October 30, 2009 13:44:07 -0500 Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/10/30 Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com I am unable to replicate this. YMMV. But I did replicate it. I measured before and after. Show us the output of top from your box with the hal processes, as I did for a start. FWIW, here's mine: 1300 haldaemon 1 440 6824K 4316K select 0 0:03 0.00% hald -- Paul Schmehl, Senior Infosec Analyst As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. *** It is as useless to argue with those who have renounced the use of reason as to administer medication to the dead. Thomas Jefferson ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
2009/10/30 Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com I was part of this and the x11 mailing list during the period in which most made the switch to hal. I am fully aware of all the complaining which occurred. There was a bug which made the issue difficult. I experienced it, the workaround was available nearly immediately and fixed soon after. Nearly of the complaints were due to that bug, or misconfiguration just as you are experiencing. The bug was basically moused and hal fighting over who was polling the mouse while X was running. top is a horrible method of measuring memory usage by a process. But people are STILL having problems, like me last night. These misconfigurations, isn't that what HAL is meant to stop people from doing, by configuring things itself? I tried with no xorg.conf file at all, I tried all sorts of things, it was very very ugly. Did you actually read what I wrote, or did you make up your mind that I had misconfigured something? Let me repeat it - I was given no keyboard or mouse. procstat(1) will give you a much better picture, I suggest you challenge your assumptions and explore that path. However since you asked here is the diff. You have just proved that you didn't read what I wrote. Let me repeat it: Show us the output of top from your box with the hal processes. You have just showed the headings, which doesn't mean a lot. I think you have closed your eyes to the problems that people experience with hal. That is a pity, because it won't improve anything. -- Adam Vande More MF. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/10/30 Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com I was part of this and the x11 mailing list during the period in which most made the switch to hal. I am fully aware of all the complaining which occurred. There was a bug which made the issue difficult. I experienced it, the workaround was available nearly immediately and fixed soon after. Nearly of the complaints were due to that bug, or misconfiguration just as you are experiencing. The bug was basically moused and hal fighting over who was polling the mouse while X was running. top is a horrible method of measuring memory usage by a process. But people are STILL having problems, like me last night. These misconfigurations, isn't that what HAL is meant to stop people from doing, by configuring things itself? I tried with no xorg.conf file at all, I tried all sorts of things, it was very very ugly. Did you actually read what I wrote, or did you make up your mind that I had misconfigured something? Let me repeat it - I was given no keyboard or mouse. Due to misconfiguration... procstat(1) will give you a much better picture, I suggest you challenge your assumptions and explore that path. However since you asked here is the diff. You have just proved that you didn't read what I wrote. Let me repeat it: Show us the output of top from your box with the hal processes. You have just showed the headings, which doesn't mean a lot. You're correct, the heading isn't a great method. It is however much more pertinent that the rest of output. Let me try another way. EACH LINE SHOWN IN TOP REPRESENTS THE CUMULATIVE MEMORY FOR THE PROCESS, INCLUDING SHARED MEMORY. IF PROCESS X IS LISTED 10 TIMES USING 10MB, THE TOTAL FOR PROCESS X IS PROBABLY NOT 100MB, AND MAY EVEN BE 10MB TOTAL. YOU CANNOT DETERMINE USEAGE BY TOP I think you have closed your eyes to the problems that people experience with hal. That is a pity, because it won't improve anything. It's me that doesn't read what is written? Please, you've already admitted to not RTFM and demonstrated you either didn't read, or didn't understand what's being said here. Software changes over time, a configuration file from years ago isn't always going to work. That's what manuals, online docs, and the handbook are for. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
--- On Fri, 10/30/09, Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: From: Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com Go and Google for hal problems - you will see that this is not an uncommon occurrence. It seems that the purpose of hal is to make things easier. Well it didn't for me - it made them harder. I dunno, perhaps I'm too stuck in my ways. But I've been configuring X for about 12+ years. Adam Vande More This is comforting for many reasons: notably, that I'm not alone in this experience. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
You are arrogant because you won't accept that people have problems with your beloved HAL, the Half Arsed Luser program. Some or many in the Linux crowd are planning to move away from it because it doesn't work properly. You don't accept that a 3k config file now needs 18MB of RAM. And doesn't work properly into the bargain anyway. You blame the users. Let's leave it at that. I have done what is right - I have moved away from Xorg + HAL which didn't work to Xorg - HAL which words properly. And I've saved 18MB of RAM. Goodbye. MF. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: You are arrogant because you won't accept that people have problems with your beloved HAL, the Half Arsed Luser program. Some or many in the Linux crowd are planning to move away from it because it doesn't work properly. You don't accept that a 3k config file now needs 18MB of RAM. And doesn't work properly into the bargain anyway. You blame the users. Let's leave it at that. I have done what is right - I have moved away from Xorg + HAL which didn't work to Xorg - HAL which words properly. And I've saved 18MB of RAM. Goodbye. MF. Where's your config files, your errors logs, your stats? That's what I thought. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
2009/10/30 Neil Short nesh...@yahoo.com This is comforting for many reasons: notably, that I'm not alone in this experience. Do you know something, it's not comforting. Not really. It just means you are another user for whom a program doesn't work properly. MF. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
2009/10/30 Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com Where's your config files, your errors logs, your stats? I am not going to reply to you after this because you are blinkered. I'm not going to waste my time with you. I've given you more than enough to feed on, but you just can't smell the coffee. Adam Vande More MF. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/10/30 Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com Where's your config files, your errors logs, your stats? I am not going to reply to you after this because you are blinkered. I'm not going to waste my time with you. I've given you more than enough to feed on, but you just can't smell the coffee. Adam Vande More MF. Okay go play with your ISA bus, while the rest of us enjoy PCI. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
Adam Vande More wrote: On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/10/30 Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com Where's your config files, your errors logs, your stats? I am not going to reply to you after this because you are blinkered. I'm not going to waste my time with you. I've given you more than enough to feed on, but you just can't smell the coffee. Adam Vande More MF. Okay go play with your ISA bus, while the rest of us enjoy PCI. Seems this is more about control than actual quality of software. One wants to keep control, one wants to release control completely to the software. Personally I prefer to keep control, therefore I have disabled HAL. Does that mean my system is bad? I can't see that it does. Does it mean I say HAL is crap? It could, but I haven't tried enough to make such an accusation. I'd like to draw a parallel (this will be pretty basic, but a more involved discussion will be far too much OT). I'm type 1 diabetic, and I use an insulin pump. The basic purpose of having a pump instead of several injections a day, is replacing the long-acting insulin with a constant feed of rapid-acting insulin, thus mimicking a functioning pancreas. And for the longest time, that was all they did. And the user had to tell the pump how much insulin he/she needed, both the constant feed and with meals. Nowdays, the pumps have evolved, and with most of them, one can simply tell it what a meal contains, and it calculates the proper amount of insulin. And the next generation will constantly measure the blood sugar and decide the amount of insulin automagically. Just like those evolved pumps will be great for people who don't want to bother, HAL may be an excellent idea for people who don't want to congfigure everything themselves. And just like I prefer to decide how much insulin I want rather than having a machine decide for me, I prefer to configure my computer and all installed software rather than have software configure itself... Does that mean I am an idiot? If so, then I'm proud to be an idiot. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Effing HAL
For Christ's sake. I have an IBM X41 laptop, which was happily running FreeBSD 7.1. Having a little free time this evening I decided to update it to 7.2. The upgrade failed miserably so I had to install from scratch. But that's OK, because I had backed up the machine beforehand. The install went through fine (via NFS after PXE boot - no CDROM on this box). And then I get to X. As this is a minor update I go to use the old Xorg config which worked fine. No joy. I get the dreaded No screens found error, although the screen is there of course. After trying X -configure several times, tweaking, etc., I get nowhere slowly. i810 is now just intel, but whatever. The screen comes up, but no mouse or keyboard. After yet much more fiddling and tweaking I finally get to the crux of the problem: fricking HAL. Having installed this from scratch using the X User defaults I might have expected that something that is now required to get the flipping keyboard and mouse working would be enabled by the installer. But no, I have to waste time on this crap just to get back to where I was before. Oh, and HAL uses 6MB or so of RAM. Not a lot. But as I already specify the hardware in the Xorg conf file it is, as far as I can see, an unnecessary waste. I thought it would be easy, but no, it's just a pain. It's wasn't unsolvable, as I have years of fiddling with UNIX and FreeBSD in particular. But for effing Christ's sake. I know this isn't specifically a FreeBSD problem, HAL being needed by X. But the flipping installer should enable it when I selected X flipping User from the install options. My little upgrade has now turned from a bit of fun into a saga that I don't want to go through again. I had to get this off my chest. It was, as they say, doing my head in. MF. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: For Christ's sake. I have an IBM X41 laptop, which was happily running FreeBSD 7.1. Having a little free time this evening I decided to update it to 7.2. The upgrade failed miserably so I had to install from scratch. But that's OK, because I had backed up the machine beforehand. The install went through fine (via NFS after PXE boot - no CDROM on this box). And then I get to X. As this is a minor update I go to use the old Xorg config which worked fine. No joy. I get the dreaded No screens found error, although the screen is there of course. After trying X -configure several times, tweaking, etc., I get nowhere slowly. i810 is now just intel, but whatever. The screen comes up, but no mouse or keyboard. After yet much more fiddling and tweaking I finally get to the crux of the problem: fricking HAL. Having installed this from scratch using the X User defaults I might have expected that something that is now required to get the flipping keyboard and mouse working would be enabled by the installer. But no, I have to waste time on this crap just to get back to where I was before. Oh, and HAL uses 6MB or so of RAM. Not a lot. But as I already specify the hardware in the Xorg conf file it is, as far as I can see, an unnecessary waste. I thought it would be easy, but no, it's just a pain. It's wasn't unsolvable, as I have years of fiddling with UNIX and FreeBSD in particular. But for effing Christ's sake. I know this isn't specifically a FreeBSD problem, HAL being needed by X. But the flipping installer should enable it when I selected X flipping User from the install options. My little upgrade has now turned from a bit of fun into a saga that I don't want to go through again. I had to get this off my chest. It was, as they say, doing my head in. MF. ___ HAL dependency is a knob in xorg-server port. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
--On Thursday, October 29, 2009 16:55:58 -0500 Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: I know this isn't specifically a FreeBSD problem, HAL being needed by X. But the flipping installer should enable it when I selected X flipping User from the install options. My little upgrade has now turned from a bit of fun into a saga that I don't want to go through again. I had to get this off my chest. It was, as they say, doing my head in. Far be it from me to pile on when you're already so frustrated, but I run into these sorts of problems myself from time to time. It's usually because I didn't bother to read /usr/ports/UPDATING first, which in this case might have warned you. 20090123: AFFECTS: users of x11-servers/xorg-server AUTHOR: rnol...@freebsd.org If you are using an older xorg.conf several config lines are no longer needed and will generate warnings when X is started. RgbPath will cause X to fail to start, remove it from your config. Server 1.5.3 also really wants to configure its input devices via hald. This is causing some issues with moused and /dev/sysmouse. There are couple of options for how to deal with it: 1. Add Option AllowEmptyInput off to your ServerLayout section. This will cause X to use the configured kbd, mouse, and vmmouse sections from your xorg.conf 2. Don't use moused. If you want it to work with addon USB mice set this in rc.conf: moused_enable=NO moused_nondefault_enable=NO I'm working on fixing hald or the mouse driver or both. In this modern world where everyone wants things to just work, xorg now does not require any conf file at all, and can happily configure on the fly (in most cases) without any input at all. -- Paul Schmehl, Senior Infosec Analyst As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. *** It is as useless to argue with those who have renounced the use of reason as to administer medication to the dead. Thomas Jefferson ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
2009/10/29 Paul Schmehl pschmehl_li...@tx.rr.com Far be it from me to pile on when you're already so frustrated, but I run into these sorts of problems myself from time to time. It's usually because I didn't bother to read /usr/ports/UPDATING first, which in this case might have warned you. Yeah, thanks for that. I knew about that file, but don't often read it. There's even more to the saga - Xkblayout doesn't work. This whole HAL thing stinks horribly. IF X is built with HAL basically certain options specified in xorg.conf no longer work. HAL thinks it knows best. But it doesn't, cos it's broken. What really gets my goat about this is that things that used to work, and people understand how they worked and how they were configured, no longer work. And I'm 18MB of RAM worse off into the bargain. There's a thread about other people's experience here: http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?p=10924#post10924. One of the posts contains these words I've been fighting this one for two days now, and still don't have a fully working system. That's seriously nasty for anyone. The whole Xorg thing, at least on FreeBSD, is just a minefield. I like to remove unnecessary packages, to save space for when I do backups. I don't have an Nvidia card on this box so: pkg_delete xf86-video-nv-2.1.13 pkg_delete: package 'xf86-video-nv-2.1.13' is required by these other packages and may not be deinstalled: xorg-drivers-7.4_1 xorg-7.4_1 Great. So what is the point in having a separate package if I can't remove that damn thing? I know I can pkg_delete -f, but why make it hard? Paul Schmehl, Senior Infosec Analyst MF ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
Freminlins wrote: 2009/10/29 Paul Schmehl pschmehl_li...@tx.rr.com Far be it from me to pile on when you're already so frustrated, but I run into these sorts of problems myself from time to time. It's usually because I didn't bother to read /usr/ports/UPDATING first, which in this case might have warned you. Yeah, thanks for that. I knew about that file, but don't often read it. There's even more to the saga - Xkblayout doesn't work. This whole HAL thing stinks horribly. IF X is built with HAL basically certain options specified in xorg.conf no longer work. HAL thinks it knows best. But it doesn't, cos it's broken. What really gets my goat about this is that things that used to work, and people understand how they worked and how they were configured, no longer work. And I'm 18MB of RAM worse off into the bargain. There's a thread about other people's experience here: http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?p=10924#post10924. One of the posts contains these words I've been fighting this one for two days now, and still don't have a fully working system. That's seriously nasty for anyone. The whole Xorg thing, at least on FreeBSD, is just a minefield. I like to remove unnecessary packages, to save space for when I do backups. I don't have an Nvidia card on this box so: pkg_delete xf86-video-nv-2.1.13 pkg_delete: package 'xf86-video-nv-2.1.13' is required by these other packages and may not be deinstalled: xorg-drivers-7.4_1 xorg-7.4_1 Great. So what is the point in having a separate package if I can't remove that damn thing? I know I can pkg_delete -f, but why make it hard? Paul Schmehl, Senior Infosec Analyst MF ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org Yes, HAL does stink. As I understand it it drifted over from the Linux world. People smarter than I saw a need for it. (I'm not second guessing them here, after the typical hair pulling I read UPDATING and some of the angry but concise posts about HAL and everything has worked great since.) Imagine my surprise then to read in a recent Ubuntu write-up that, with the release of Karmic Koala, their (Ubuntu's) use of HAL is on its way to deprecation. How long has it been around? A year? Two? And now it's headed for Linux's ever-expanding dustbin of ideas that were once sold as the greatest thing since sliced bread. This is why I use FreeBSD; as a counter-irritant to Linux's willy-nilly approach to development. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Effing HAL
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Freminlins freminl...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/10/29 Paul Schmehl pschmehl_li...@tx.rr.com The whole Xorg thing, at least on FreeBSD, is just a minefield. I like to remove unnecessary packages, to save space for when I do backups. I don't have an Nvidia card on this box so: pkg_delete xf86-video-nv-2.1.13 pkg_delete: package 'xf86-video-nv-2.1.13' is required by these other packages and may not be deinstalled: xorg-drivers-7.4_1 ^^ xorg-7.4_1 ^^ Great. So what is the point in having a separate package if I can't remove that damn thing? I know I can pkg_delete -f, but why make it hard? The xorg and xorg-drivers ports are meta ports meant to make it easier to just install _everything_ related to those two items. They don't actually install anything themselves. You can safely delete those two ports and then the xf86-video-nv port will not complain about being required by other ports. Matt ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
