RE: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
first of all, sorry by my English I am agree with people who says take courseworks, and those who say learn your self, I did both, but first I had to learn on my own, and that´s really a very, very hard task to do! ;) and I only recomend it if you are some kind of Indiana Jones and have time enought to dedicate it . The benefits of self teaching I found, were the goals. The first time I made a pointer works were the hapiest day of my life!!! and the first program I made can you imagine!? :) Another thing to point to is the fact that someone who learns on his/her own, has a more accurate knowledge regarding errors mesages, time compiling messg, and almost any kind of the most strange errors messg that never occur on the real life !! :) I really like self teaching, altough every time I can, I take as much courses as possible. I learnt many things in that way, the first people who showed me Linux said three things That´s the way you get in That´s the way you get out That´s the way you get help! Now I at the same time I´m using Linux, I use FreeBSD too. By the way... now I´m dedicating time to asm. That´s really, really hard!! bye Gastón Again... Sorry by my English! :) - Original Message - From: Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: yo _ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++ I would recommend not trying to learn C or C++ by yourself from a book. The fastest (and best way) to learn the right stuff is to take coursework from a university or community college. If the courses are any good, you'll get feedback, and you'll be paced and challenged with projects designed to help you learn. Going it alone in an unguided environment will only familiarize you the lesser aspects of a language, if you last that long. The difficult and most important aspects of the language (like pointers, virtual functions, references) will become almost insurmountable trial-and-error obstacles if you try to teach yourself. This is a good point. The person who takes a class should (prividing the class is well done) be guided through the whole range of the language. Whereas someone learning on their own just picks up the pieces they need at the moment and then fixates on those parts and doesn't go on to learn the whole range of the language. If you want to get a lower paying and boring job programming in C/C++ for whatever reason and have a piece of paper that says you can have that job, I recommend wasting 4-6 months taking a course in your spare time to learn C/C++. If you want to be top of your game and learn C/C++ without wasting time on topics that take you a minute to understand, get a good book, practice the topics you have learned at your own pace, get numorous code examples for things you may want to do (sockets, GUI, OpenGL, ncurses, threading, kernel interfacing) from the glorious and infinite internet and emulate good programming style (using const qualifiers in C++, using #defines in C, etc.). Also be prepared to teach yourself because you may not always be prepared for a job you may find yourself with; learn how to easily learn and use external libraries. The only really valuable thing from this flame is the implication that you must go on and keep using the new learning and add to it from man sources. It is not a waste of time to learn it right from the start. The best programmers will teach themselves. A statement that may be on the borderline of opinion to fact by constant example. After all the first programmer, in fact, taught herself. And it was a lifelong mistake-filled iterative process. If the material was already there in the beginning as it is for C, C++, Fortran, Assembly, etc, then that lifelong process could have started at a higher level of understanding and moved on from their instead of having to spend so many years of rummaging around at the primative levels. Mostly, I am just responding to the making of a sweeping generalization that may apply to a very few, but for the most is meaningless. It seems to take a narrow viewpoint to make up a flame. jerry -Rian Hunter ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
On Mon, 2003-11-10 at 19:12, Scott W wrote: Books and references- C- Already mentioned, KR 'The C Programming Language' is 'the bible.' This is also generally a lousy book to start with if you aren't programming already, but an invaluable reference. Pick up another book, wish I knew a good starter one, but it's been a while...can try Deitel and Deitel or (nobody laugh, have used it for Intro before..) the 21 days SAMs series for a 'jump-start,' and THEN the Deitel/Deitel and KR. I have O'Reilly's Practical C Programming by Steve Oualline and think it's pretty good for beginners. He glazes over a lot of stuff in the beginning, but I think that ends up helping in the long run. (Kinda like, this is how it works followed later by okay, this is how it *really* works.) Coupled with the KR book (especially the standard library reference appendix!), I'm now learning C at a phenomenal rate. Charles Ulrich -- http://bityard.net ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
I would recommend not trying to learn C or C++ by yourself from a book. The fastest (and best way) to learn the right stuff is to take coursework from a university or community college. Not that I like disagreeing for no good reason, but I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. If the courses are any good, you'll get feedback, and you'll be paced and challenged with projects designed to help you learn. Going it alone in an unguided environment will only familiarize you the lesser aspects of a language, if you last that long. The difficult and most important aspects of the language (like pointers, virtual functions, references) will become almost insurmountable trial-and-error obstacles if you try to teach yourself. If you want to get a lower paying and boring job programming in C/C++ for whatever reason and have a piece of paper that says you can have that job, I recommend wasting 4-6 months taking a course in your spare time to learn C/C++. If you want to be top of your game and learn C/C++ without wasting time on topics that take you a minute to understand, get a good book, practice the topics you have learned at your own pace, get numorous code examples for things you may want to do (sockets, GUI, OpenGL, ncurses, threading, kernel interfacing) from the glorious and infinite internet and emulate good programming style (using const qualifiers in C++, using #defines in C, etc.). Also be prepared to teach yourself because you may not always be prepared for a job you may find yourself with; learn how to easily learn and use external libraries. The best programmers will teach themselves. A statement that may be on the borderline of opinion to fact by constant example. After all the first programmer, in fact, taught herself. -Rian Hunter _ MSN Messenger with backgrounds, emoticons and more. http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_customize ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
On 11/12/03 12:09 PM, yo _ sat at the `puter and typed: I would recommend not trying to learn C or C++ by yourself from a book. The fastest (and best way) to learn the right stuff is to take coursework from a university or community college. Not that I like disagreeing for no good reason, but I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. If the courses are any good, you'll get feedback, and you'll be paced and challenged with projects designed to help you learn. Going it alone in an unguided environment will only familiarize you the lesser aspects of a language, if you last that long. The difficult and most important aspects of the language (like pointers, virtual functions, references) will become almost insurmountable trial-and-error obstacles if you try to teach yourself. If you want to get a lower paying and boring job programming in C/C++ for whatever reason and have a piece of paper that says you can have that job, I recommend wasting 4-6 months taking a course in your spare time to learn C/C++. If you want to be top of your game and learn C/C++ without wasting time on topics that take you a minute to understand, get a good book, practice the topics you have learned at your own pace, get numorous code examples for things you may want to do (sockets, GUI, OpenGL, ncurses, threading, kernel interfacing) from the glorious and infinite internet and emulate good programming style (using const qualifiers in C++, using #defines in C, etc.). Also be prepared to teach yourself because you may not always be prepared for a job you may find yourself with; learn how to easily learn and use external libraries. The best programmers will teach themselves. A statement that may be on the borderline of opinion to fact by constant example. After all the first programmer, in fact, taught herself. -Rian Hunter I seem to remember another common saying: A person who is self taught has a fool for a teacher Not that I entirely disagree with your statement, but the first programmer if I understand your meaning, never presented her first attempt for approval to the current codeset - at least I didn't get the memo. All I have is the secondhand publishing of several different, and mostly conflicted sets of operating instructions, most of which are even self conflicting. So self taught isn't necessarily right the first time - unless the docs are all forged :) Then again, I could be entirely mistaken about your meaning, so feel free to ignore my babble before flaming (in fact, please do :). Besides, every person is different. Some people need some degree of structure to focus them. Others do better on a 'spur of the moment' schedule, where they spend time learning when it will be productive. I go for a walk down the middle of these perfectly valid, if fundamentalist, approaches. A person who only learns in school never learns outside of school. OTOH, a person who avoids structured learning environments will have a hard time in other structured environments. Most of my C++ knowledge was gained in school. My much more extensive C knowledge was entirely self taught. Yes, I do have the occasional pointer mishap, but I doubt there are many people who don't. Lou -- Louis LeBlanc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fully Funded Hobbyist, KeySlapper Extrordinaire :) http://www.keyslapper.org ԿԬ Old Japanese proverb: There are two kinds of fools -- those who never climb Mt. Fuji, and those who climb it twice. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
I would recommend not trying to learn C or C++ by yourself from a book. The fastest (and best way) to learn the right stuff is to take coursework from a university or community college. If the courses are any good, you'll get feedback, and you'll be paced and challenged with projects designed to help you learn. Going it alone in an unguided environment will only familiarize you the lesser aspects of a language, if you last that long. The difficult and most important aspects of the language (like pointers, virtual functions, references) will become almost insurmountable trial-and-error obstacles if you try to teach yourself. This is a good point. The person who takes a class should (prividing the class is well done) be guided through the whole range of the language. Whereas someone learning on their own just picks up the pieces they need at the moment and then fixates on those parts and doesn't go on to learn the whole range of the language. If you want to get a lower paying and boring job programming in C/C++ for whatever reason and have a piece of paper that says you can have that job, I recommend wasting 4-6 months taking a course in your spare time to learn C/C++. If you want to be top of your game and learn C/C++ without wasting time on topics that take you a minute to understand, get a good book, practice the topics you have learned at your own pace, get numorous code examples for things you may want to do (sockets, GUI, OpenGL, ncurses, threading, kernel interfacing) from the glorious and infinite internet and emulate good programming style (using const qualifiers in C++, using #defines in C, etc.). Also be prepared to teach yourself because you may not always be prepared for a job you may find yourself with; learn how to easily learn and use external libraries. The only really valuable thing from this flame is the implication that you must go on and keep using the new learning and add to it from man sources. It is not a waste of time to learn it right from the start. The best programmers will teach themselves. A statement that may be on the borderline of opinion to fact by constant example. After all the first programmer, in fact, taught herself. And it was a lifelong mistake-filled iterative process. If the material was already there in the beginning as it is for C, C++, Fortran, Assembly, etc, then that lifelong process could have started at a higher level of understanding and moved on from their instead of having to spend so many years of rummaging around at the primative levels. Mostly, I am just responding to the making of a sweeping generalization that may apply to a very few, but for the most is meaningless. It seems to take a narrow viewpoint to make up a flame. jerry -Rian Hunter ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
yo _ wrote: I would recommend not trying to learn C or C++ by yourself from a book. The fastest (and best way) to learn the right stuff is to take coursework from a university or community college. Not that I like disagreeing for no good reason, but I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. If the courses are any good, you'll get feedback, and you'll be paced and challenged with projects designed to help you learn. Going it alone in an unguided environment will only familiarize you the lesser aspects of a language, if you last that long. The difficult and most important aspects of the language (like pointers, virtual functions, references) will become almost insurmountable trial-and-error obstacles if you try to teach yourself. If you want to get a lower paying and boring job programming in C/C++ for whatever reason and have a piece of paper that says you can have that job, I recommend wasting 4-6 months taking a course in your spare time to learn C/C++. If you want to be top of your game and learn C/C++ without wasting time on topics that take you a minute to understand, get a good book, practice the topics you have learned at your own pace, get numorous code examples for things you may want to do (sockets, GUI, OpenGL, ncurses, threading, kernel interfacing) from the glorious and infinite internet and emulate good programming style (using const qualifiers in C++, using #defines in C, etc.). Also be prepared to teach yourself because you may not always be prepared for a job you may find yourself with; learn how to easily learn and use external libraries. Like others it seems, I have a problem with _part_ of this statement. I have taught C++ and others previously, and can say _some_ people respond much better to 'guided' learning in person- eg, classes. Those that take what they leanred in class and go on to actually apply it, or come up with questions on their own and then pursue the answers on their own time, become much better programmers. Others are completely capable of learning outside of a classroom environment- Note I didn't say 'on their own,' because a good book and _working code_ examples, and then their own working code, are all invaluable parts...so anyway, I don't agree with ALL classes being a waste, although it highly depends on the instructor, the student, and perhaps most importantly, what the student DOES with the information given to him. A very good point was brought up though, and it used to be embedded in every class I taught- the things not nescessarily language specific- problem analysis, design, good programming practices and structure. These are not always taught in the 'usual comp programming classes' unfortunately. The other point I used to mention (while teaching Pascal, heh!) was if they took only a single thing away with them from the class, it was this: You MUST learn how to do research on your own, and solve your own problems! That doesn't mean never asking for help, whether in person, via mailing lists or newsgroups, but it means if you have a problem, you should be _capable_, and know how to, research it yourself first. When you think about it, every single program created is unique (k, cept maybe where SCO stole source code and then cried to lawyers about it ;-). Even programs that have the same design, even down to the API level, are unique. When you start a new project, on your own or in a group, it's HIGHLY likely you will be doing something you have never done beforeso learning how to find information you need, quickly, becomes paramount. The best programmers will teach themselves. A statement that may be on the borderline of opinion to fact by constant example. After all the first programmer, in fact, taught herself. -Rian Hunter _ MSN Messenger with backgrounds, emoticons and more. http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_customize ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
On 11/10/03 07:12 PM, Scott W sat at the `puter and typed: Alex Kelly wrote: I need to buy a book on C or C++ to help me in FreeBSD. Which would be better to buy? I first thought a book on C would be best, because the OS is written in C. But, now I'm not sure because I read that gcc can compile C++ too (so, I'm assuming C++ must get used too). Does it even matter? Suggestions? ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] It depends on your goals. I used to teach both C and C++, and now years later, am currently hard pressed to find a non-Microsoft C/C++ development position. If for personal knowledge, definitely C followed by C++. If professional, or want to behmm. In that case, I'd say it still depends more on your goals- if you're going to try to stay in *nix development, you've GOT to know C. If you don't care, or God help you, want a job doing Windows development, start with C++, and ignore all of the standard data types because MS will make their own for you ;-) Starting with C has an advantage in that you tend to have to do 'most of the work yourself' for a lot of things, which tends to help you understand more about how things work. IMHO, that also tends to make better programmers down the line, regardless of the language they use. C++ is similar, but STL will make life easier when it comes to data structures. Java I don't want to talk about ;-) A significant amount of system level programming(think system processes and services/daemons) are written in C. A fair number of applications are, but the majority of GNOME/KDE apps, if that's a consideration, are done in C++. A growing number of applications are also being done in Java, but it's not the best language to start with for understanding much of anything (you can write a half dozen lines of Java to replace perhaps 100+ in C/C++ from scratch in some cases). It isn't a bad language to learn (professional-wise as well, *groan*) after learning C or C++. Books and references- C- Already mentioned, KR 'The C Programming Language' is 'the bible.' This is also generally a lousy book to start with if you aren't programming already, but an invaluable reference. Pick up another book, wish I knew a good starter one, but it's been a while...can try Deitel and Deitel or (nobody laugh, have used it for Intro before..) the 21 days SAMs series for a 'jump-start,' and THEN the Deitel/Deitel and KR. W. Richard Stevens Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment- MUST HAVE. I may be misquoting the name, but a search on bookpool.com , bn.com (or search on amazon then BUY somewhere else!) will quickly turn it up. KR is to the C language, Stevens is to Unix programming... google search for 'Secure Unix Programming'- there's a FAQ or two out there that are pretty good once you're past 'the basics.' C++ Latest edition of Deitel/Deitel. Funny, I used to really dislike their books, but they DO provide pretty decent overall coverage. May or may not be 'too deep' at first, if so, preface with SAMs or equivalent. Stroustrup- 'The C++ Programming Language. Stroustrup write C++ but is pretty dry. Good reference and for advanced topics. Stroustrup- Annoted Reference Manual AKA 'the ARM'- what KR is to C. *The C++ Standard Library : A Tutorial and Reference- recommended pretty highly, but don't currently have. search on favorite bookstore will turn it up. *Java (before ya ask ;-) There are a LOT of bad books on Java it seems. Deitel and Deitel again is worth buying as a first book (after C and/or C++), then decide what you want to DO with Java, as there are a number of directions- JDBC, Beans, JSP, etc etc etc.. As always, languages and books can be a moving target- when possible, pick up the latest edition covering the current ANSI standard for C/C++, and make sure anything you buy for Java covers 'Java 2,' preferably JDK 1.4, but at least 1.3 or you'll be throwing out work by the time you work on a current project.. Misc others- POSIX Programming, O'Reilly press. Good coverage of POSIX (Unix for simplicity's sake but not really) required system calls. Network Programming- Again,m by Stevens. FAQs for whatever you wind up taking an interest in. I don't _like_ GUI development, but KDE and GNOME have a fair number of tutorials for QT and GTK respectively... Wow, that's a fairly complete list. Agree completely on the C/C++ application/philosophical differences. The book list missed one very useful C++ book by Josutis, The C++ Standard I think. Don't have it handy. You know, everyone's been telling me to give up C and just start working with C++. I've been resisting pretty strongly, and now I realize why. C is a geeks language. It gives you
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
On Tuesday 11 November 2003 13:54, Louis LeBlanc wrote: On 11/10/03 07:12 PM, Scott W sat at the `puter and typed: Alex Kelly wrote: I need to buy a book on C or C++ to help me in FreeBSD. Which would be better to buy? I first thought a book on C would be best, because the OS is written in C. But, now I'm not sure because I read that gcc can compile C++ too (so, I'm assuming C++ must get used too). Does it even matter? Suggestions? ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] It depends on your goals. I used to teach both C and C++, and now years later, am currently hard pressed to find a non-Microsoft C/C++ development position. If for personal knowledge, definitely C followed by C++. If professional, or want to behmm. In that case, I'd say it still depends more on your goals- if you're going to try to stay in *nix development, you've GOT to know C. If you don't care, or God help you, want a job doing Windows development, start with C++, and ignore all of the standard data types because MS will make their own for you ;-) Starting with C has an advantage in that you tend to have to do 'most of the work yourself' for a lot of things, which tends to help you understand more about how things work. IMHO, that also tends to make better programmers down the line, regardless of the language they use. C++ is similar, but STL will make life easier when it comes to data structures. Java I don't want to talk about ;-) A significant amount of system level programming(think system processes and services/daemons) are written in C. A fair number of applications are, but the majority of GNOME/KDE apps, if that's a consideration, are done in C++. A growing number of applications are also being done in Java, but it's not the best language to start with for understanding much of anything (you can write a half dozen lines of Java to replace perhaps 100+ in C/C++ from scratch in some cases). It isn't a bad language to learn (professional-wise as well, *groan*) after learning C or C++. Books and references- C- Already mentioned, KR 'The C Programming Language' is 'the bible.' This is also generally a lousy book to start with if you aren't programming already, but an invaluable reference. Pick up another book, wish I knew a good starter one, but it's been a while...can try Deitel and Deitel or (nobody laugh, have used it for Intro before..) the 21 days SAMs series for a 'jump-start,' and THEN the Deitel/Deitel and KR. W. Richard Stevens Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment- MUST HAVE. I may be misquoting the name, but a search on bookpool.com , bn.com (or search on amazon then BUY somewhere else!) will quickly turn it up. KR is to the C language, Stevens is to Unix programming... google search for 'Secure Unix Programming'- there's a FAQ or two out there that are pretty good once you're past 'the basics.' C++ Latest edition of Deitel/Deitel. Funny, I used to really dislike their books, but they DO provide pretty decent overall coverage. May or may not be 'too deep' at first, if so, preface with SAMs or equivalent. Stroustrup- 'The C++ Programming Language. Stroustrup write C++ but is pretty dry. Good reference and for advanced topics. Stroustrup- Annoted Reference Manual AKA 'the ARM'- what KR is to C. *The C++ Standard Library : A Tutorial and Reference- recommended pretty highly, but don't currently have. search on favorite bookstore will turn it up. *Java (before ya ask ;-) There are a LOT of bad books on Java it seems. Deitel and Deitel again is worth buying as a first book (after C and/or C++), then decide what you want to DO with Java, as there are a number of directions- JDBC, Beans, JSP, etc etc etc.. As always, languages and books can be a moving target- when possible, pick up the latest edition covering the current ANSI standard for C/C++, and make sure anything you buy for Java covers 'Java 2,' preferably JDK 1.4, but at least 1.3 or you'll be throwing out work by the time you work on a current project.. Misc others- POSIX Programming, O'Reilly press. Good coverage of POSIX (Unix for simplicity's sake but not really) required system calls. Network Programming- Again,m by Stevens. FAQs for whatever you wind up taking an interest in. I don't _like_ GUI development, but KDE and GNOME have a fair number of tutorials for QT and GTK respectively... Wow, that's a fairly complete list. Agree completely on the C/C++ application/philosophical differences. The book list missed one very useful C++ book by Josutis, The C++ Standard I think. Don't have it handy. You know, everyone's been telling me to give up C and just start working with C++. I've been
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On Monday 10 November 2003 23:23, Alex Kelly wrote: So, it sounds like I should probably tackle C before C++. Not really, there's need to learn C if you just want to learn C++. Any decent C++ book will teach you all you need to know without learning C specifically first. Personally I quite like Sams C++ for Linux in 21 days. Then when you've got the basics, go onto Bruce Eckel's Thiking in C++. (freely downloadable from bruceeckel.com) - -- Cheers, Chris Howells -- [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://chrishowells.co.uk, PGP ID: 0x33795A2C KDE/Qt/C++/PHP Developer: http://www.kde.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/sOwhF8Iu1zN5WiwRAkKUAJ4spL3Wlq62aRgyVAgSQazcEUtKwgCeOQ3k MVts1+pvOKbYypdau071PWs= =3A9+ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
Chris Howells [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Monday 10 November 2003 23:23, Alex Kelly wrote: So, it sounds like I should probably tackle C before C++. Not really, there's need to learn C if you just want to learn C++. Any decent C++ book will teach you all you need to know without learning C specifically first. They are different languages, and shouldn't be viewed as depending on each other. [There is a myth that C++ is a superset of C, but this is not really the case.] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On Tuesday 11 November 2003 23:02, Lowell Gilbert wrote: each other. [There is a myth that C++ is a superset of C, but this is not really the case.] C++ is based on C. Any C code (providing it does not use certain key word that are reserved in C++) can be compiled in a C++ compiler. I would therefore have to disagree with you. - -- Cheers, Chris Howells -- [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://chrishowells.co.uk, PGP ID: 0x33795A2C KDE/Qt/C++/PHP Developer: http://www.kde.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/sX6wF8Iu1zN5WiwRAqroAJ95ih7Vt1yE+jUmKPh9BRvUfPzRPgCfWuqp 6CHoyZtjfsIB9DQT+mcaZhk= =+UJP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 12:28:32AM +, Chris Howells wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Hi,
On Tuesday 11 November 2003 23:02, Lowell Gilbert wrote:
each other. [There is a myth that C++ is a superset of C, but this is
not really the case.]
C++ is based on C. Any C code (providing it does not use certain key word that
are reserved in C++) can be compiled in a C++ compiler.
Wrong. C++ is based on C, but it has made some changes so it is not
quite a superset of C.
Try for example the following little program:
#include stdlib.h
int main(void)
{
char *a;
a=malloc(10);
if(a) free(a);
return 0;
}
This is valid C, but not valid C++. (C++ does not perform automatic
conversion between void pointers and other pointers.)
This should suffice to demonstrate that C++ is not really a superset of
C. The intersection between C and C++ is a usable programming language
though, but it is rarely worth the trouble to restrict oneself to that
subset of the languages.
--
Insert your favourite quote here.
Erik Trulsson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:54 am, Louis LeBlanc wrote: Wow, that's a fairly complete list. Agree completely on the C/C++ application/philosophical differences. The book list missed one very useful C++ book by Josutis, The C++ Standard I think. Don't have it handy. I agree with all said so far but would add that IMHO, you can't really can't go past o'reilly for pretty much any topic on computing... to paraphrase, there are plenty of bad computer books but I would guess few of them are O'reilly books :-) except maybe UML in a nutshell *shudder* You know, everyone's been telling me to give up C and just start working with C++. I've been resisting pretty strongly, and now I realize why. C is a geeks language. It gives you more control than C++. I like C for one primary reason: I like to be in control. I know that many of the C++ constructs, member functions, etc. are slow in comparison to home grown vanilla construct in C that only do what they are needed for. The standard template classes use table lookups just to figure out what its contents look like. If you create the construct from scratch, it knows whether it's holding an int, char*, or struct. Like someone said, it depends what you want to do. IMHO, C is much better for small, embedded or system level programming and C++ of large 'enterprise level programming. It is no wonder that C is the basis for most OSOSs... and because someone mentioned Java, I thought i'd mention Forth... :-) -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 And some run up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stones to pieces wi' hammers, like so many road makers run daft. They say it is to see how the world was made. Sir Walter Scott, St. Ronan's Well 1824 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
On 11/12/03 01:37 PM, paul van den bergen sat at the `puter and typed: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:54 am, Louis LeBlanc wrote: Wow, that's a fairly complete list. Agree completely on the C/C++ application/philosophical differences. The book list missed one very useful C++ book by Josutis, The C++ Standard I think. Don't have it handy. I agree with all said so far but would add that IMHO, you can't really can't go past o'reilly for pretty much any topic on computing... to paraphrase, there are plenty of bad computer books but I would guess few of them are O'reilly books :-) except maybe UML in a nutshell *shudder* I guess I've earned a slap to the forhead there. I have close to a couple thousand invested in O'Reilly books, so I should have mentioned them right off. I have found the nutshell books don't fit my method of use though. Most of the cookbooks are very good though. L -- Louis LeBlanc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fully Funded Hobbyist, KeySlapper Extrordinaire :) http://www.keyslapper.org ԿԬ When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute -- and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity. -- Albert Einstein ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
I need to buy a book on C or C++ to help me in FreeBSD. Which would be better to buy? I first thought a book on C would be best, because the OS is written in C. But, now I'm not sure because I read that gcc can compile C++ too (so, I'm assuming C++ must get used too). I can recommend Who's afraid of C++? by Steve Heller. It's good as the very first programming book to read, very easy to understand. I would recommend not trying to learn C or C++ by yourself from a book. The fastest (and best way) to learn the right stuff is to take coursework from a university or community college. If the courses are any good, you'll get feedback, and you'll be paced and challenged with projects designed to help you learn. Going it alone in an unguided environment will only familiarize you the lesser aspects of a language, if you last that long. The difficult and most important aspects of the language (like pointers, virtual functions, references) will become almost insurmountable trial-and-error obstacles if you try to teach yourself. For example, pointers, found both in C and C++ are a very hard thing to learn the first time around. You msy find yourself buying book after book, looking for explanations when you really should be learning in a guided environment where you clarify things with other people. If you try to teach yourself, you won't get proper exposure to good programming practices and the software development process, such as planning and documentation, modularization, good interface design, commenting code, using the debugger, writing good tests, etc. This knowlege is more important to effective programming than learning the mechanics, and distinguish professionals from cheap hacks. Take coursework!! --Allan ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
if i've got the msg, it seems u're sugesting to go to software uni and
finish that instead c/c++ advice @ the end.
back to the ?, i would go with C for starters. C++ later. alone, with
books, lotsa {coffee|oj|pepsi|...|..} and good luck. coursework can
help if you have time/money.
$0.0153
alex
p.s. ESL
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, abowhill wrote:
I need to buy a book on C or C++ to help me in FreeBSD. Which would be
better to buy?
I first thought a book on C would be best, because the OS is written in
C. But, now I'm not sure because I read that gcc can compile C++ too
(so, I'm assuming C++ must get used too).
I can recommend Who's afraid of C++? by Steve Heller. It's good as the very
first programming book to read, very easy to understand.
I would recommend not trying to learn C or C++ by yourself from a book.
The fastest (and best way) to learn the right stuff is to take coursework from a
university or community college.
If the courses are any good, you'll get feedback, and you'll be paced
and challenged with projects designed to help you learn.
Going it alone in an unguided environment will only familiarize you
the lesser aspects of a language, if you last that long. The difficult
and most important aspects of the language (like pointers, virtual functions,
references) will become almost insurmountable trial-and-error obstacles if you try
to teach yourself.
For example, pointers, found both in C and C++ are a very hard thing
to learn the first time around. You msy find yourself buying book after book,
looking for explanations when you really should be learning in a guided environment
where you clarify things with other people.
If you try to teach yourself, you won't get proper exposure to good programming
practices and the software development process, such as planning and documentation,
modularization, good interface design, commenting code, using the debugger, writing
good tests, etc. This knowlege is more important to effective programming than
learning the mechanics, and distinguish professionals from cheap hacks.
Take coursework!!
--Allan
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Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
A decent school will start you with C as an introduction to programming
then teach you basic C++ (you write your own abstract data types).
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 8:17pm alexander v p [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
if i've got the msg, it seems u're sugesting to go to software uni and
finish that instead c/c++ advice @ the end.
Yes, I would suggest doing that. I would suggest a writing course too.
back to the ?, i would go with C for starters. C++ later. alone, with
books, lotsa {coffee|oj|pepsi|...|..} and good luck. coursework can
help if you have time/money.
$0.0153
alex
p.s. ESL
For a teach-yourself strategy that sounds reasonable.
Just remember that studying from computer books costs time and money too.
IMHO, after all is said and done, the cost is the same, but you will profit more if
you take a class.
Good luck with your efforts!
--Allan
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Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
I need to buy a book on C or C++ to help me in FreeBSD. Which would be better to buy? This doesn't answer your C++ part of the question, but you should have the Kernighan Ritchie The C Programming Language and then get something like C A Reference Manual (Latest edition is 5th I think) by Harbison and Steele.After that you might look at C Programming FAQs by Steve Summit. I first thought a book on C would be best, because the OS is written in C. But, now I'm not sure because I read that gcc can compile C++ too (so, I'm assuming C++ must get used too). Does it even matter? Suggestions? ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
- Original Message - From: Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alex Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:14 PM Subject: Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++ I need to buy a book on C or C++ to help me in FreeBSD. Which would be better to buy? This doesn't answer your C++ part of the question, but you should have the Kernighan Ritchie The C Programming Language and then get something like C A Reference Manual (Latest edition is 5th I think) by Harbison and Steele.After that you might look at C Programming FAQs by Steve Summit. Thanks, Jerry. So, it sounds like I should probably tackle C before C++. By the way, I saw the first two books you mentioned in Borders Book Store today while on my lunch break. They must be fairly popular. I first thought a book on C would be best, because the OS is written in C. But, now I'm not sure because I read that gcc can compile C++ too (so, I'm assuming C++ must get used too). Does it even matter? Suggestions? ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
Alex Kelly wrote: I need to buy a book on C or C++ to help me in FreeBSD. Which would be better to buy? I first thought a book on C would be best, because the OS is written in C. But, now I'm not sure because I read that gcc can compile C++ too (so, I'm assuming C++ must get used too). Does it even matter? Suggestions? ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] It depends on your goals. I used to teach both C and C++, and now years later, am currently hard pressed to find a non-Microsoft C/C++ development position. If for personal knowledge, definitely C followed by C++. If professional, or want to behmm. In that case, I'd say it still depends more on your goals- if you're going to try to stay in *nix development, you've GOT to know C. If you don't care, or God help you, want a job doing Windows development, start with C++, and ignore all of the standard data types because MS will make their own for you ;-) Starting with C has an advantage in that you tend to have to do 'most of the work yourself' for a lot of things, which tends to help you understand more about how things work. IMHO, that also tends to make better programmers down the line, regardless of the language they use. C++ is similar, but STL will make life easier when it comes to data structures. Java I don't want to talk about ;-) A significant amount of system level programming(think system processes and services/daemons) are written in C. A fair number of applications are, but the majority of GNOME/KDE apps, if that's a consideration, are done in C++. A growing number of applications are also being done in Java, but it's not the best language to start with for understanding much of anything (you can write a half dozen lines of Java to replace perhaps 100+ in C/C++ from scratch in some cases). It isn't a bad language to learn (professional-wise as well, *groan*) after learning C or C++. Books and references- C- Already mentioned, KR 'The C Programming Language' is 'the bible.' This is also generally a lousy book to start with if you aren't programming already, but an invaluable reference. Pick up another book, wish I knew a good starter one, but it's been a while...can try Deitel and Deitel or (nobody laugh, have used it for Intro before..) the 21 days SAMs series for a 'jump-start,' and THEN the Deitel/Deitel and KR. W. Richard Stevens Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment- MUST HAVE. I may be misquoting the name, but a search on bookpool.com , bn.com (or search on amazon then BUY somewhere else!) will quickly turn it up. KR is to the C language, Stevens is to Unix programming... google search for 'Secure Unix Programming'- there's a FAQ or two out there that are pretty good once you're past 'the basics.' C++ Latest edition of Deitel/Deitel. Funny, I used to really dislike their books, but they DO provide pretty decent overall coverage. May or may not be 'too deep' at first, if so, preface with SAMs or equivalent. Stroustrup- 'The C++ Programming Language. Stroustrup write C++ but is pretty dry. Good reference and for advanced topics. Stroustrup- Annoted Reference Manual AKA 'the ARM'- what KR is to C. *The C++ Standard Library : A Tutorial and Reference- recommended pretty highly, but don't currently have. search on favorite bookstore will turn it up. *Java (before ya ask ;-) There are a LOT of bad books on Java it seems. Deitel and Deitel again is worth buying as a first book (after C and/or C++), then decide what you want to DO with Java, as there are a number of directions- JDBC, Beans, JSP, etc etc etc.. As always, languages and books can be a moving target- when possible, pick up the latest edition covering the current ANSI standard for C/C++, and make sure anything you buy for Java covers 'Java 2,' preferably JDK 1.4, but at least 1.3 or you'll be throwing out work by the time you work on a current project.. Misc others- POSIX Programming, O'Reilly press. Good coverage of POSIX (Unix for simplicity's sake but not really) required system calls. Network Programming- Again,m by Stevens. FAQs for whatever you wind up taking an interest in. I don't _like_ GUI development, but KDE and GNOME have a fair number of tutorials for QT and GTK respectively... Scott ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
I need to buy a book on C or C++ to help me in FreeBSD. Which would be better to buy? If you just want to start programming in FreeBSD, Learn C as well as you can. The route I took was learning basic programming skills then reading The C Programming Language by KR, it's an excellent book if you are already very familiar with the computer and have some basic programming skills (make sure you know your c development enviroment and how to use gcc). The book is so great because not only does it teach C syntax, the examples open your mind to writing simple and efficient code in a C style, and it even has a small UNIX programming tutorial toward the end (on how to implement some of the standard library functions in a UNIX system). That book and a good familiarity with the man pages is really all you need to get started coding on FreeBSD. If you are still a little lost and really want to go on the quick route to good BSD programming, read UNIX Network Programming by W. Richard Stevens. The original edition introduces you to good fundamental knowledge of the UNIX system and archictecture (process model, system calls, and IPC) then it goes right to socket programming which is a must to know especially in this day and age. The later editions seperate the actual socket programming from the unix stuff but go intensely in depth. That's why i'm fonder of the first edition, concise and smart. I first thought a book on C would be best, because the OS is written in C. But, now I'm not sure because I read that gcc can compile C++ too (so, I'm assuming C++ must get used too). Now that you've had good practice with C and UNIX programming, learning libraries (GTK, QT, pthreads, GD to name a few) is simply a matter of reference and learning any other language else is simply a matter of syntax and style, and everything will come very easy. If you haven't learned C++ by that point just figure out what Object Oriented programming is (it'll beautify your life), get a reference book, look at some coding examples, and no sweat. Java? Perl? Python? Javascript? Visual Basic (haha)? They'll all just be minor changes in syntax and style when in comes to C/C++ (except for python, hah). Hope that helps and good luck! -Rian Hunter _ MSN Messenger with backgrounds, emoticons and more. http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_customize ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
