Re: [Freedos-devel] Proposal: remove Graphical Desktops from next FreeDOS
Jim put it best, I think - remove the GUI's from the official media, but leave them on ibiblio, which would be the FreeDOS equivalent of the Hobbes archive for OS/2. On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 at 23:53, Liam Proven wrote: > > On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 at 17:52, Jim Hall wrote: > > > > It's been a few days since the last comment on this thread, so I think > > those who have an opinion on this have voiced it. > > Just seen it. I've moved house recently and have no broadband at my new place. > > > The consensus appears to be "Keep OpenGEM but drop oZone and SEAL" > > Sounds good. But please _fix_ OpenGEM. Either configure it to run from > the subdirectory FDIMPLES puts it in, or tweak its batch file to > SWSUBST it to a drive letter of its own. > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > > > ___ > Freedos-devel mailing list > Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Proposal: remove Graphical Desktops from next FreeDOS
On Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Liam Proven wrote: On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 at 17:52, Jim Hall wrote: It's been a few days since the last comment on this thread, so I think those who have an opinion on this have voiced it. Just seen it. I've moved house recently and have no broadband at my new place. The consensus appears to be "Keep OpenGEM but drop oZone and SEAL" Sounds good. But please _fix_ OpenGEM. Either configure it to run from the subdirectory FDIMPLES puts it in, or tweak its batch file to SWSUBST it to a drive letter of its own. That shouldn't even be hard. http://www.seasip.info/Gem/Software/resdir.zip -uso. ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Proposal: remove Graphical Desktops from next FreeDOS
On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 at 17:52, Jim Hall wrote: > > It's been a few days since the last comment on this thread, so I think > those who have an opinion on this have voiced it. Just seen it. I've moved house recently and have no broadband at my new place. > The consensus appears to be "Keep OpenGEM but drop oZone and SEAL" Sounds good. But please _fix_ OpenGEM. Either configure it to run from the subdirectory FDIMPLES puts it in, or tweak its batch file to SWSUBST it to a drive letter of its own. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Proposal: remove Graphical Desktops from next FreeDOS
> On Feb 19, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jim Hall wrote: > > It's been a few days since the last comment on this thread, so I think > those who have an opinion on this have voiced it. > > The consensus appears to be "Keep OpenGEM but drop oZone and SEAL" so > let's remove oZone and SEAL in the next monthly test release. (These > will not be removed from Ibiblio, so people can always download from > there.) +1 > > ___ > Freedos-devel mailing list > Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Proposal: remove Graphical Desktops from next FreeDOS
It's been a few days since the last comment on this thread, so I think those who have an opinion on this have voiced it. The consensus appears to be "Keep OpenGEM but drop oZone and SEAL" so let's remove oZone and SEAL in the next monthly test release. (These will not be removed from Ibiblio, so people can always download from there.) ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Proposal: remove Graphical Desktops from next FreeDOS
> And to be clear: I don't plan to delete these from the FreeDOS Files > Archive at Ibiblio. My proposal is just to not include them in the > next FreeDOS distribution. +1 > If people want to keep using, say, SEAL - > they can download it and install it themselves. as of many other packages. Tom ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Proposal: remove Graphical Desktops from next FreeDOS
Danilo Pecher wrote: > > Quite frankly, I would throw them all on the scrap heap. Rugxulo wrote: > I wouldn't quite "throw them away", but for simplicity we really don't > have to include them. I don't use any GUI in DOS (by default). > > [off-topic comments dropped] And to be clear: I don't plan to delete these from the FreeDOS Files Archive at Ibiblio. My proposal is just to not include them in the next FreeDOS distribution. If people want to keep using, say, SEAL - they can download it and install it themselves. >From other comments, it sounds like folks are leaning to "Keep OpenGEM but drop oZone and SEAL" which is a good discussion. So let's try to keep the conversation focused on that. Jim ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Proposal: remove Graphical Desktops from next FreeDOS
Hi, On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 5:28 PM Danilo Pecher wrote: > > Quite frankly, I would throw them all on the scrap heap. I wouldn't quite "throw them away", but for simplicity we really don't have to include them. I don't use any GUI in DOS (by default). > As Jim said, none of them has any number of apps worth noting I thought GEM included an art program and a word processor?? > and there is a reason why no GUI other than Windows 3.11 ever took off under > Dos. Desqview/X? (The devkit for that is still on DJGPP mirrors under "v1" whatever.) Calmira?? > I know that from painful experience of wasting two years on an attempt to > create one in the early 90s. It's just not what Dos is about, I think. DOSSHELL was quite nice (although I rarely used it). Same with Desktop2. However, for mixing tools and writing scripts and testing things, a UI is usually more of a hindrance than anything. (DOS Navigator was also very nice. In some ways I prefer TUI without mouse.) There were a *lot* of cool DOS programs and toolkits. For DJGPP alone, there was mGUI, JPTUI, Allegro, and others. It's sad how much got deprecated or ignored for DJGPP. It really is a swell suite of tools. > Unless someone puts together a serious attempt (perhaps PCGeOS > qualifies) I wouldn't include any GUI. Frankly, if you are after a > freeware GUI OS, Linux or ReactOS are better options. I wouldn't include any with FreeDOS "by default" either. I disagree about Linux as a suitable GUI for the same family of machines. There are not a lot of good distributions for old machines anymore. Something like ZipSlack (Slackware 11.0) is nice but from 2006. Well, I guess that's no worse than what we have, but it's unsupported and few would use or recommend it. Last I checked, the oldest supported Linux kernel upstream was from 2016. People are already giving up on IA-32 and even trying to split up x64 into separate groups (e.g. AVX2 or AVX-512, ugh). Chromebooks are quickly obsoleted too (which the FSF calls "planned obsolescence"). I'm not blaming anyone for not wasting time or money, but if something is shunned *and* unsupported, it makes little sense to say "just use Linux" when it either literally won't work (anymore) or nobody will develop with it or for it. Or did you mean TinyCore or some variant of Puppy? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Microarchitecture_levels ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Proposal: remove Graphical Desktops from next FreeDOS
Quite frankly, I would throw them all on the scrap heap. As Jim said,
none of them has any number of apps worth noting and there is a reason
why no GUI other than Windows 3.11 ever took off under Dos. I know
that from painful experience of wasting two years on an attempt to
create one in the early 90s. It's just not what Dos is about, I think.
Unless someone puts together a serious attempt (perhaps PCGeOS
qualifies) I wouldn't include any GUI. Frankly, if you are after a
freeware GUI OS, Linux or ReactOS are better options.
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 at 23:43, wrote:
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> > On Feb 15, 2023, at 5:05 PM, Jim Hall wrote:
> >
> > As I mentioned in my other email, I don't think we need to have
> > Graphical Desktops included in FreeDOS. I propose that we remove
> > Graphical Desktops from the next FreeDOS, starting with the next
> > FreeDOS Test release.
> >
> > Graphical Desktops were a neat experiment, long ago. We used to have a
> > few desktops in FreeDOS, including Desktop2 (which was really just a
> > graphical menu and file launcher). Today, we have three desktops in
> > the FreeDOS distribution, under the "Graphical Desktops" group:
> >
> > 1. OpenGEM
> >
> > This is a very nice graphical desktop that is basically the old GEM
> > desktop ("Graphics Environment Manager"). If you used DR-DOS, you may
> > have seen GEM. It works well and is solid. But no one writes apps for
> > OpenGEM - and without apps, it doesn't really add much value. The
> > packages are broken (wrong paths) but that is fixable.
> >
> > I propose we remove OpenGEM from the distribution anyway.
> >
> > 2. oZone GUI
> >
> > This is a nice-looking GUI, but it has some noticeable bugs. Even the
> > included Minesweeper game doesn't count properly (see 3:40 in
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw-Fx5k7Smg)
> >
> > I don't foresee anyone fixing these bugs. And like OpenGEM, it
> > includes a few built-in apps, but no one is writing new apps for it.
> > Without apps, it doesn't do much more than a graphical menu program.
> >
> > I propose we remove oZone GUI from the FreeDOS distribution.
> >
> > 3. SEAL
> >
> > This is another nice-looking GUI, and if I recall correctly, a version
> > of SEAL became Qube OS. This has a few built-in apps, but no one is
> > making new apps for it. And without apps, it doesn't do much more than
> > a graphical file launcher.
> >
> > I propose we remove SEAL from the FreeDOS distribution.
> >
> > Jim
>
> I personally do not use any GUI under FreeDOS.
>
> But, I’m not sure that we should remove all GUIs from the release. At least
> maybe, keep the best one the Bonus CD.
>
> It seems like every couple weeks, someone fairly new to FreeDOS wants to
> create a GUI. I feel that some of those prospective developers really just
> want something similar to Windows 3.x or 9x to run windows software. Others
> are most likely coming from a "modern” desktop OS and think FreeDOS needs a
> GUI. They may be wrong or right. I try not to judge. But instead of just
> having them wonder down their own path to a half finished GUI, it would be
> more productive to point them at one of the existing ones. Giving them a
> place to contribute.
>
> As Jim said, oZone GUI and SEAL have had unfixed bugs for a long time. They
> also have very little software. They should probably be removed.
>
> At present, OpenGEM is probably the most popular and stable. But, it may not
> be the answer either. If I recall correctly, the last release was the final
> version and for all purposes development has ceased.
>
> There is at lease one very popular desktop GUI still under development. That
> would be PC-GEOS. It was open sourced some time back and a small team has
> been working on removing any proprietary code.
>
> Perhaps we should keep OpenGEM around for a while. Then maybe at some point,
> when the team working on PC-GEOS feels comfortable with a general public
> release, we could switch over to including it. We could could also suggest to
> those who want to create a GUI, the check out contributing to the PC-GEOS
> project.
>
> Jerome
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] Proposal: remove Graphical Desktops from next FreeDOS
Hi Jim,
> On Feb 15, 2023, at 5:05 PM, Jim Hall wrote:
>
> As I mentioned in my other email, I don't think we need to have
> Graphical Desktops included in FreeDOS. I propose that we remove
> Graphical Desktops from the next FreeDOS, starting with the next
> FreeDOS Test release.
>
> Graphical Desktops were a neat experiment, long ago. We used to have a
> few desktops in FreeDOS, including Desktop2 (which was really just a
> graphical menu and file launcher). Today, we have three desktops in
> the FreeDOS distribution, under the "Graphical Desktops" group:
>
> 1. OpenGEM
>
> This is a very nice graphical desktop that is basically the old GEM
> desktop ("Graphics Environment Manager"). If you used DR-DOS, you may
> have seen GEM. It works well and is solid. But no one writes apps for
> OpenGEM - and without apps, it doesn't really add much value. The
> packages are broken (wrong paths) but that is fixable.
>
> I propose we remove OpenGEM from the distribution anyway.
>
> 2. oZone GUI
>
> This is a nice-looking GUI, but it has some noticeable bugs. Even the
> included Minesweeper game doesn't count properly (see 3:40 in
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw-Fx5k7Smg)
>
> I don't foresee anyone fixing these bugs. And like OpenGEM, it
> includes a few built-in apps, but no one is writing new apps for it.
> Without apps, it doesn't do much more than a graphical menu program.
>
> I propose we remove oZone GUI from the FreeDOS distribution.
>
> 3. SEAL
>
> This is another nice-looking GUI, and if I recall correctly, a version
> of SEAL became Qube OS. This has a few built-in apps, but no one is
> making new apps for it. And without apps, it doesn't do much more than
> a graphical file launcher.
>
> I propose we remove SEAL from the FreeDOS distribution.
>
> Jim
I personally do not use any GUI under FreeDOS.
But, I’m not sure that we should remove all GUIs from the release. At least
maybe, keep the best one the Bonus CD.
It seems like every couple weeks, someone fairly new to FreeDOS wants to create
a GUI. I feel that some of those prospective developers really just want
something similar to Windows 3.x or 9x to run windows software. Others are most
likely coming from a "modern” desktop OS and think FreeDOS needs a GUI. They
may be wrong or right. I try not to judge. But instead of just having them
wonder down their own path to a half finished GUI, it would be more productive
to point them at one of the existing ones. Giving them a place to contribute.
As Jim said, oZone GUI and SEAL have had unfixed bugs for a long time. They
also have very little software. They should probably be removed.
At present, OpenGEM is probably the most popular and stable. But, it may not be
the answer either. If I recall correctly, the last release was the final
version and for all purposes development has ceased.
There is at lease one very popular desktop GUI still under development. That
would be PC-GEOS. It was open sourced some time back and a small team has been
working on removing any proprietary code.
Perhaps we should keep OpenGEM around for a while. Then maybe at some point,
when the team working on PC-GEOS feels comfortable with a general public
release, we could switch over to including it. We could could also suggest to
those who want to create a GUI, the check out contributing to the PC-GEOS
project.
Jerome
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Re: [Freedos-devel] Proposal: remove Graphical Desktops from next FreeDOS
On 2/15/2023 2:05 PM, Jim Hall wrote:
As I mentioned in my other email, I don't think we need to have
Graphical Desktops included in FreeDOS. I propose that we remove
Graphical Desktops from the next FreeDOS, starting with the next
FreeDOS Test release.
Graphical Desktops were a neat experiment, long ago. We used to have a
few desktops in FreeDOS, including Desktop2 (which was really just a
graphical menu and file launcher). Today, we have three desktops in
the FreeDOS distribution, under the "Graphical Desktops" group:
1. OpenGEM
This is a very nice graphical desktop that is basically the old GEM
desktop ("Graphics Environment Manager"). If you used DR-DOS, you may
have seen GEM. It works well and is solid. But no one writes apps for
OpenGEM - and without apps, it doesn't really add much value. The
packages are broken (wrong paths) but that is fixable.
I propose we remove OpenGEM from the distribution anyway.
I think we should help fix what is broken with OpenGEM and keep it, as
you mention, it otherwise works, and you can run DOS programs from that
UI, something that the other "wanna-be" GUI don't do.
That said, I have no problem with getting rid of Ozone and Seal...
Ralf
PS: The problem with "nobody writes apps for OpenGEM" is the way how
"some people" are riding on the "it must be all Open Source" issue,
which as I mentioned many times before, never really applied for DOS
back in its days, and thus, we are seriously limiting ourselves to what
can be done with FreeDOS.
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Re: [Freedos-devel] Proposal: remove Graphical Desktops from next FreeDOS
Hi Louis, > On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 2:07 PM Jim Hall wrote: > > > > As I mentioned in my other email, I don't think we need to have > > Graphical Desktops included in FreeDOS. I propose that we remove > > Graphical Desktops from the next FreeDOS, starting with the next > > FreeDOS Test release. [..] > > 1. OpenGEM [..] > > 2. oZone GUI [..] > > 3. SEAL [..] On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 4:13 PM Louis Santillan wrote: > > I would suggest that OpenGEM get moved to Extras. > OpenGEM, oZone GUI, and SEAL are already on the BonusCD. Is that what you mean by "Extras"? (There is no "Extras" CD.) If so, OpenGEM is already there. You didn't mention oZone GUI and SEAL in your reply. Do you agree to remove these packages? ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Proposal: remove Graphical Desktops from next FreeDOS
I would suggest that OpenGEM get moved to Extras.
On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 2:07 PM Jim Hall wrote:
>
> As I mentioned in my other email, I don't think we need to have
> Graphical Desktops included in FreeDOS. I propose that we remove
> Graphical Desktops from the next FreeDOS, starting with the next
> FreeDOS Test release.
>
> Graphical Desktops were a neat experiment, long ago. We used to have a
> few desktops in FreeDOS, including Desktop2 (which was really just a
> graphical menu and file launcher). Today, we have three desktops in
> the FreeDOS distribution, under the "Graphical Desktops" group:
>
> 1. OpenGEM
>
> This is a very nice graphical desktop that is basically the old GEM
> desktop ("Graphics Environment Manager"). If you used DR-DOS, you may
> have seen GEM. It works well and is solid. But no one writes apps for
> OpenGEM - and without apps, it doesn't really add much value. The
> packages are broken (wrong paths) but that is fixable.
>
> I propose we remove OpenGEM from the distribution anyway.
>
> 2. oZone GUI
>
> This is a nice-looking GUI, but it has some noticeable bugs. Even the
> included Minesweeper game doesn't count properly (see 3:40 in
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw-Fx5k7Smg)
>
> I don't foresee anyone fixing these bugs. And like OpenGEM, it
> includes a few built-in apps, but no one is writing new apps for it.
> Without apps, it doesn't do much more than a graphical menu program.
>
> I propose we remove oZone GUI from the FreeDOS distribution.
>
> 3. SEAL
>
> This is another nice-looking GUI, and if I recall correctly, a version
> of SEAL became Qube OS. This has a few built-in apps, but no one is
> making new apps for it. And without apps, it doesn't do much more than
> a graphical file launcher.
>
> I propose we remove SEAL from the FreeDOS distribution.
>
> Jim
>
>
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