Re: [Freedos-user] (no subject)

2018-04-19 Thread dmccunney 
On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 6:40 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 5:12 PM, dmccunney  wrote:
> [..]
>> Having it available under a compatible open source license will let
>> Jim make it available as part of FreeDOS.
>>
>> Having it available as Freeware gives folks something they can *do*
>> with FreeDOS, which may be more important.
>
> I agree!
>
> My view is "Ask, and they might do it." And "If you don't ask, they won't."

Yep.

> The ideal is that vendors might release the source code under a
> Free/open source software license, like the GNU GPL. That would be
> great!

Better still if they would release under a BSD or MIT license.

> But some vendors might not be able to release the source code. Maybe
> there are legal restrictions, based on licensing agreements
> (libraries, etc) and it would be too much work for them to go through
> the legal clearance process to release the source code to a classic
> DOS program. In this case, I'd be happy if they re-released the
> software as free (gratis).

Yes again.  Source for applications of any size will likely not be
entirely written in house by the vendor, but will have come from other
sources and were licensed to the vendor.  The vendor of the final
product may well not have the rights to release all the source.

Consider Star Office, which became the base for Open Office and Libre
Office.  Sun bought Star Office GMBH, the original vendor.  They
decided to make it open source.  One of the components of Star Office
was a database.  The one issued with Star Office was a version of
Adabas from Software AG.  Star Office's license for Adabas allowed
them to release binaries as freeware, but did *not* allow them to
release source. Sun replaced Adabas with a Base module that was
actually written in Java which they did control.  You had to have a
current JRE installed along with OO/LO to be able to *use* Base.
(OO/LO would *install* without a JRE present, but would throw errors
if you tried to  *use* Base without a JRE installed.)

And all open source licenses are not equal.  One development I follow
is Toybox.  Toybox is an effort by Rob Landley.  He was the former
maintainer of Busybox.  Toybox is an improved Busybox equivalent.  The
initial target for Toybox is Android, and several contributors to
Toybox are Google Android developers, because they use Toybox
internally.  Rob cannot accept contributions licensed under the GPL.
There are too many strings attached to using the GPL.  (And GPLv2 and
GPLv3 are not compatible with each other!)  My irony meter has pegged
off scale more than once when two *open source* projects cannot share
code because the licenses are incompatible.
__
Dennis

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Re: [Freedos-user] (no subject)

2018-04-19 Thread Jim Hall 
On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 5:12 PM, dmccunney  wrote:
[..]
> If Jim can convince Corel to offer source uinder a license that will
> let him add it the the FreeDOS distribution, I'll be surprised and
> delighted.
>
> If anyone actually grabs that source, and uploads new and improved
> versions incorporating changes they made to the source, I'll be
> astonished.
>
> Having it available under a compatible open source license will let
> Jim make it available as part of FreeDOS.
>
> Having it available as Freeware gives folks something they can *do*
> with FreeDOS, which may be more important.


I agree!

My view is "Ask, and they might do it." And "If you don't ask, they won't."

The ideal is that vendors might release the source code under a
Free/open source software license, like the GNU GPL. That would be
great!

But some vendors might not be able to release the source code. Maybe
there are legal restrictions, based on licensing agreements
(libraries, etc) and it would be too much work for them to go through
the legal clearance process to release the source code to a classic
DOS program. In this case, I'd be happy if they re-released the
software as free (gratis). For example, Trius Inc did this with the
shareware As-Easy-As spreadsheet. They provided an activation code
that anyone could use to activate As-Easy-As 5.7.

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Re: [Freedos-user] (no subject)

2018-04-19 Thread dmccunney 
On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 5:56 PM, geneb  wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018, dmccunney wrote:
>
>> Best case, you get what Embarcadero once did.  They inherited the
>> former Borland DOS products like Turbo-C, and were offering them as
>> unsupported freeware downloads from a community link on their site.
>> There was no *paying* market for the DOS stuff, but making it
>> available was a nice gesture and good publicity for the Windows based
>> stuff they could *sell*.
>
> This was actually done by Borland, long before the stand-alone tools
> division (CodeGear) was created, let alone sold to Embarcadero.

Hmmm.  True, and thanks for the correction.  Embarcadero simply
carried on the practice.

But the point stands.  I don't see a *paying* market for DOS software,
but Corel might be convinced to make it available as unsupported
freeware.

Source code is nice, but not a magic bullet.  The vast majority of
folks who grab open source software want the compiled binaries so they
can *run* them.  The number of folks who are *able* to fix bugs and
add features because they have the source is a very tiny fraction of
the number of folks who will actually use the programs.

If Jim can convince Corel to offer source uinder a license that will
let him add it the the FreeDOS distribution, I'll be surprised and
delighted.

If anyone actually grabs that source, and uploads new and improved
versions incorporating changes they made to the source, I'll be
astonished.

Having it available under a compatible open source license will let
Jim make it available as part of FreeDOS.

Having it available as Freeware gives folks something they can *do*
with FreeDOS, which may be more important.

> g.
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] (no subject)

2018-04-19 Thread geneb 

On Thu, 19 Apr 2018, dmccunney wrote:


Best case, you get what Embarcadero once did.  They inherited the
former Borland DOS products like Turbo-C, and were offering them as
unsupported freeware downloads from a community link on their site.
There was no *paying* market for the DOS stuff, but making it
available was a nice gesture and good publicity for the Windows based
stuff they could *sell*.


This was actually done by Borland, long before the stand-alone tools 
division (CodeGear) was created, let alone sold to Embarcadero.


g.

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Re: [Freedos-user] (no subject)

2018-04-19 Thread dmccunney 
On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 2:12 PM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:
> I wouldn't expect them to ever release the source but
> to put it back on the market for sale, like it use to be.
> Not everthing can be open and free. If you tell them you
> have a million downloads they may feel there is once
> again a viable market for their product and will sell
> and upgrade their dos line. I thing that Corel still has
> alot of dos fans out there. I think alot of people miss
> the simplicity and practicality of dos. Don't expect the
> world to be completely free. DOS isn't worth much
> without high quality software to run on it

I wouldn't expect release of source, either, though it would be nice.
But neither would I expect release for sale. Who would *buy* it?  DOS
has been dead for years, and I doubt there would be enough paying
customers to make sales worth the while.  Actually *selling* stuff
involves costs to be *able* to sell it, and unless you are confident
of a decent sales volume, it's not worth doing.

Yes, FreeDOS 1.1 has gotten a million downloads, but that, by itself,
is meaningless.  How many of the downloaders actually installed it,
and on what?  How many are actually using it, and what are they doing
with it if they are?  (My own bet is that most actually using it are
doing do to play old DOS games *native*, not use stuff like WP or
QPro.)

Best case, you get what Embarcadero once did.  They inherited the
former Borland DOS products like Turbo-C, and were offering them as
unsupported freeware downloads from a community link on their site.
There was no *paying* market for the DOS stuff, but making it
available was a nice gesture and good publicity for the Windows based
stuff they could *sell*.

> cheers
> DS.
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] Connecting to a BBS via a modem

2018-04-19 Thread Dale E Sterner 
I think you helped keep an interesting piece of software from
fading out permenantly. It has little practical use but is
interesting to look at - a piece of historical art. Protected
software usually disappears completely when  it loses
its usefulness. This way some younger people can see
what it use to look like.

cheers
DS


On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:53:00 -0700 (PDT) geneb 
writes:
> On Thu, 19 Apr 2018, Jim Hall wrote:
> 
> > While I know that this helped a specific user request, I'd 
> appreciate
> > that we not share/link to "crack" tools that circumvent copy
> > protection. Even for programs like Telix that aren't supported
> > anymore.
> >
> Your house, your rules.  No problem. :)
> 
> > Free/open source software has a hard enough time being viewed in
> > certain circles as "hacker" culture, and sharing "crack" tools 
> doesn't
> > help with that image.
> >
> I can't bring myself to pander to a group of people that are baffled 
> by 
> computers equipped with multi-button mice. (or no mouse at all!) :)
> 
> g.
> 
> -- 
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
> 
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
> 
>
-
-
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
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> 


**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


Cardiologist Warns: Throw Out Your Probiotics Now
Gundry MD
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Re: [Freedos-user] (no subject)

2018-04-19 Thread Dale E Sterner 
I wouldn't expect them to ever release the source but
to put it back on the market for sale, like it use to be.
Not everthing can be open and free. If you tell them you
have a million downloads they may feel there is once
again a viable market for their product and will sell
and upgrade their dos line. I thing that Corel still has
alot of dos fans out there. I think alot of people miss
the simplicity and practicality of dos. Don't expect the
world to be completely free. DOS isn't worth much
without high quality software to run on it


cheers
DS.

On Thu, 19 Apr 2018 11:29:10 -0500 Jim Hall  writes:
> >> I downloaded as-easy-as from your site.
> >> I didn't see a "LET command listed. Its a command
> >> that makes dos qpro special. None of my dos macros
> >> would run without it.
> >> Maybe you could talk to Corel or who ever owns
> >> the copyright and see if they could bring back their
> >> office software for FREEDOS use. They made the best
> >> dos software ever.
> 
> On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 2:25 PM, Robert Riebisch 
>  wrote:
> > Hi Dale,
> >
> > Would be a nice contribution to the FreeDOS community if *you* 
> take this
> > job. :-)
> >
> 
> I agree with Robert! I think it would be great for you to reach out 
> to
> Corel (or any other software company) and ask that they release the
> source code to their DOS applications under a Free/open source
> software license like the GNU General Public License.
> 
> You can reach Corel here:
> http://www.corel.com/
> 
> I just contacted them to ask about Quattro Pro and WordPerfect, but
> I'm sure it would help if others (like you) also contacted them an
> politely asked if they would release the source code to their legacy
> DOS applications under a Free/open source software license. The more
> people who ask, the more likely they are to respond.
> 
> On Corel's "Contact" page, you can chat online, open a ticket or 
> call.
> I chose to open a support ticket with them.
> 
> Jim
> 
>
-
-
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


After Weeks Of Rumors, Joanna Gaines Comes Clean
risingstarnewspaper.com
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ad8db08f39b25b084c2bst02duc

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Re: [Freedos-user] Connecting to a BBS via a modem

2018-04-19 Thread geneb 

On Thu, 19 Apr 2018, Jim Hall wrote:


While I know that this helped a specific user request, I'd appreciate
that we not share/link to "crack" tools that circumvent copy
protection. Even for programs like Telix that aren't supported
anymore.


Your house, your rules.  No problem. :)


Free/open source software has a hard enough time being viewed in
certain circles as "hacker" culture, and sharing "crack" tools doesn't
help with that image.

I can't bring myself to pander to a group of people that are baffled by 
computers equipped with multi-button mice. (or no mouse at all!) :)


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

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Re: [Freedos-user] Connecting to a BBS via a modem

2018-04-19 Thread Jim Hall 
> On Mon, 16 Apr 2018, Dale E Sterner wrote:
>> My copy asks for money for a key but noone left to collect it.
>> I used up half my legal trys brfore it shuts down.
>> What was that link again?

On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 2:28 PM, geneb  wrote:
> You can also go here:
> http://cd.textfiles.com/hackersencyc/PC/CRAKHOUS/FILES.HTM and grab the file
> called "351crack.com" - I tested against the Telix download I pointed you to
> and it did work.

While I know that this helped a specific user request, I'd appreciate
that we not share/link to "crack" tools that circumvent copy
protection. Even for programs like Telix that aren't supported
anymore.

Free/open source software has a hard enough time being viewed in
certain circles as "hacker" culture, and sharing "crack" tools doesn't
help with that image.

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Re: [Freedos-user] (no subject)

2018-04-19 Thread Jim Hall 
>> I downloaded as-easy-as from your site.
>> I didn't see a "LET command listed. Its a command
>> that makes dos qpro special. None of my dos macros
>> would run without it.
>> Maybe you could talk to Corel or who ever owns
>> the copyright and see if they could bring back their
>> office software for FREEDOS use. They made the best
>> dos software ever.

On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 2:25 PM, Robert Riebisch  wrote:
> Hi Dale,
>
> Would be a nice contribution to the FreeDOS community if *you* take this
> job. :-)
>

I agree with Robert! I think it would be great for you to reach out to
Corel (or any other software company) and ask that they release the
source code to their DOS applications under a Free/open source
software license like the GNU General Public License.

You can reach Corel here:
http://www.corel.com/

I just contacted them to ask about Quattro Pro and WordPerfect, but
I'm sure it would help if others (like you) also contacted them an
politely asked if they would release the source code to their legacy
DOS applications under a Free/open source software license. The more
people who ask, the more likely they are to respond.

On Corel's "Contact" page, you can chat online, open a ticket or call.
I chose to open a support ticket with them.

Jim

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