Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[Aitor Santamaría via Freedos-user]

Hello Eric,

You are right.
In Spanish it happens the same, and I assume in many other keyboard
distributions out there.

So, closed case.
If someone wants R-ALt to act like L-Alt, maybe they can try the KEYB trick
and let us know.

Aitor




On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 at 21:07, Eric Auer via Freedos-user <
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

>
> Hi Aitor,
>
> I would assume that right alt DELIBERATELY does not act like
> a generic ALT key in EDIT: In German, for example, you need
> that right "Alt Gr" key for some accented characters, so it
> must not act as a function shift key. I remember not being
> able to use some other editor exactly because it treated any
> ALT like ALT, making me unable to type "@" because it wanted
> to treat it like "ALT-Q" or "ALT-@" with a special meaning
> for the ALT status instead of as an ordinary character.
>
> Maybe it would be useful to make this configurable in EDIT,
> but in a minimalist way, for example a checkbox whether R-ALT
> counts as ALT (for hotkeys) or is not to be interfered with.
>
> Regards, Eric
>
>
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Sounds like it could be a bug in Edit, I'll see about it when I have a
> > little time.
> >
> > Now for the original question: is it possible to make R-Alt work like
> L-Alt?
> > It should be possible to do that with FD-KEYB.The idea is to intercept
> > Right-Alt and then emit Left-Alt, and get back to the BIOS driver. This
> > trick is unlikely lo work in a pre-AT-class machines, but in this older
> > machines, you can try and run FD-KEYB with the /9 and see if it works.
> >
> > The trick is like this: R-Alt is an E0-prefixed L-Alt, so you should
> define
> > a new plane for the E0:
> > [PLANES]
> > ...
> > ...
> > E0
> >
> > Then, make a new mappings sections that would just catch the R-Alt and
> emit
> > a L-Alt (the scancode for Alt is 38h = 56
> >
> > [KEYS:ralt]
> > 5656/#0
> >
> > Finally, add this new mapping to your Submappings section, at the end, so
> > that it works as a fallback for the other cases (change the codepage for
> > whatever you desire):
> >
> > [Submappings]
> > ...
> > ...
> > 437   ralt
> >
> > If someone wants to give it a try and works, let me know, should be
> > interesting stuff.
> > You can apply the same trick to make "extended" keys work as
> non-extended.
> >
> > Aitor
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[Eric Auer via Freedos-user]

Hi Aitor,

I would assume that right alt DELIBERATELY does not act like
a generic ALT key in EDIT: In German, for example, you need
that right "Alt Gr" key for some accented characters, so it
must not act as a function shift key. I remember not being
able to use some other editor exactly because it treated any
ALT like ALT, making me unable to type "@" because it wanted
to treat it like "ALT-Q" or "ALT-@" with a special meaning
for the ALT status instead of as an ordinary character.

Maybe it would be useful to make this configurable in EDIT,
but in a minimalist way, for example a checkbox whether R-ALT
counts as ALT (for hotkeys) or is not to be interfered with.

Regards, Eric




Hello,

Sounds like it could be a bug in Edit, I'll see about it when I have a
little time.

Now for the original question: is it possible to make R-Alt work like L-Alt?
It should be possible to do that with FD-KEYB.The idea is to intercept
Right-Alt and then emit Left-Alt, and get back to the BIOS driver. This
trick is unlikely lo work in a pre-AT-class machines, but in this older
machines, you can try and run FD-KEYB with the /9 and see if it works.

The trick is like this: R-Alt is an E0-prefixed L-Alt, so you should define
a new plane for the E0:
[PLANES]
...
...
E0

Then, make a new mappings sections that would just catch the R-Alt and emit
a L-Alt (the scancode for Alt is 38h = 56

[KEYS:ralt]
5656/#0

Finally, add this new mapping to your Submappings section, at the end, so
that it works as a fallback for the other cases (change the codepage for
whatever you desire):

[Submappings]
...
...
437   ralt

If someone wants to give it a try and works, let me know, should be
interesting stuff.
You can apply the same trick to make "extended" keys work as non-extended.

Aitor






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Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[Aitor Santamaría via Freedos-user]

Hello,

Sounds like it could be a bug in Edit, I'll see about it when I have a
little time.

Now for the original question: is it possible to make R-Alt work like L-Alt?
It should be possible to do that with FD-KEYB.The idea is to intercept
Right-Alt and then emit Left-Alt, and get back to the BIOS driver. This
trick is unlikely lo work in a pre-AT-class machines, but in this older
machines, you can try and run FD-KEYB with the /9 and see if it works.

The trick is like this: R-Alt is an E0-prefixed L-Alt, so you should define
a new plane for the E0:
[PLANES]
...
...
E0

Then, make a new mappings sections that would just catch the R-Alt and emit
a L-Alt (the scancode for Alt is 38h = 56

[KEYS:ralt]
5656/#0

Finally, add this new mapping to your Submappings section, at the end, so
that it works as a fallback for the other cases (change the codepage for
whatever you desire):

[Submappings]
...
...
437   ralt

If someone wants to give it a try and works, let me know, should be
interesting stuff.
You can apply the same trick to make "extended" keys work as non-extended.

Aitor


On Tue, 8 Mar 2016 at 20:08, John Hupp  wrote:

> The default FreeDOS 1.1 installation does not load KEYB for a US
> keyboard (nor do I have it loaded). CHCP reports Code Page 858, as
> expected.  And as I reported in my original post on this topic:
>
> - Even in Edit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt with no document open.
> - In SetEdit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
> - In FreeDOS Help, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
> - In DOOM, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
>
> This led me to think that underlying mechanisms were all in good order
> and not responsible for the (undesirable) behavior in EDIT. So I do
> indeed now think of it as an EDIT problem, and I have adopted SETEDIT as
> a workaround or better alternative on most hardware.
>
> @ Bret: Perhaps you have the skills to offer a fix for EDIT, or can
> convince the current developers to do so!
>
> On 3/8/2016 1:46 PM, Bret Johnson wrote:
> > It is known that the R-Alt (AltGr) works differently than L-Alt with
> some keyboard layouts, but when it is a US keyboard layout (and some other
> layouts as well) that is not the case.  This is a bug and it should be
> fixed.
> >
> > There are DOS functions that EDIT can call to tell what kind of keyboard
> layout is currently implemented and what the current Code Page is (the two
> things are correlated).  However, not all keyboard drivers implement those
> functions properly, so EDIT can end up thinking you're using a US keyboard
> layout when you really aren't.  I know MS-KEYB properly supports these
> functions, but am not sure about FD-KEYB or the other "MS-KEYB clones".
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[John Hupp]

And if you are the Bret Johnson of http://bretjohnson.us/ then I'm sure 
you do have the skills!

On 3/8/2016 2:08 PM, John Hupp wrote:
> @ Bret: Perhaps you have the skills to offer a fix for EDIT, or can 
> convince the current developers to do so!


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Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[John Hupp]

The default FreeDOS 1.1 installation does not load KEYB for a US 
keyboard (nor do I have it loaded). CHCP reports Code Page 858, as 
expected.  And as I reported in my original post on this topic:

- Even in Edit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt with no document open.
- In SetEdit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
- In FreeDOS Help, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
- In DOOM, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.

This led me to think that underlying mechanisms were all in good order 
and not responsible for the (undesirable) behavior in EDIT. So I do 
indeed now think of it as an EDIT problem, and I have adopted SETEDIT as 
a workaround or better alternative on most hardware.

@ Bret: Perhaps you have the skills to offer a fix for EDIT, or can 
convince the current developers to do so!

On 3/8/2016 1:46 PM, Bret Johnson wrote:
> It is known that the R-Alt (AltGr) works differently than L-Alt with some 
> keyboard layouts, but when it is a US keyboard layout (and some other layouts 
> as well) that is not the case.  This is a bug and it should be fixed.
>
> There are DOS functions that EDIT can call to tell what kind of keyboard 
> layout is currently implemented and what the current Code Page is (the two 
> things are correlated).  However, not all keyboard drivers implement those 
> functions properly, so EDIT can end up thinking you're using a US keyboard 
> layout when you really aren't.  I know MS-KEYB properly supports these 
> functions, but am not sure about FD-KEYB or the other "MS-KEYB clones".


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Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[Bret Johnson]

It is known that the R-Alt (AltGr) works differently than L-Alt with some 
keyboard layouts, but when it is a US keyboard layout (and some other layouts 
as well) that is not the case.  This is a bug and it should be fixed.

There are DOS functions that EDIT can call to tell what kind of keyboard layout 
is currently implemented and what the current Code Page is (the two things are 
correlated).  However, not all keyboard drivers implement those functions 
properly, so EDIT can end up thinking you're using a US keyboard layout when 
you really aren't.  I know MS-KEYB properly supports these functions, but am 
not sure about FD-KEYB or the other "MS-KEYB clones".


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Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[Don Flowers]

I use setedit almost exclusively and R-Alt is working correctly with an
open file.

On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 11:48 AM, John Hupp  wrote:

> I have argued much the same, but I have a recollection that the EDIT
> behavior is by design, with R-Alt (aka AltGr) functioning as a dead key
> to provide support for the Euro character, etc.
>
> There is an old, unattended bug report on the issue, though it may need
> rounding out, and in any case some will argue that it's not a bug (which
> may be why it was unattended): https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/bugs/96/
>
> I do appreciate the measure of support for my revised understanding --
> that this behavior is due to program design (hopefully rare among
> programs) rather than some feature of FreeDOS.
>
> On 3/8/2016 9:46 AM, Bret Johnson wrote:
> > With a US keyboard layout, R-Alt and L-Alt are supposed to work exactly
> the same way in the vast majority of programs, including EDIT.
> >
> > I did a couple of experiments, and in FD-EDIT it doesn't work that way.
> It's a bug in the way the program is written.  MS-EDIT works just fine.  I
> haven't looked at the source code for EDIT, but this should be relatively
> easy to patch.
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[John Hupp]

I have argued much the same, but I have a recollection that the EDIT 
behavior is by design, with R-Alt (aka AltGr) functioning as a dead key 
to provide support for the Euro character, etc.

There is an old, unattended bug report on the issue, though it may need 
rounding out, and in any case some will argue that it's not a bug (which 
may be why it was unattended): https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/bugs/96/

I do appreciate the measure of support for my revised understanding -- 
that this behavior is due to program design (hopefully rare among 
programs) rather than some feature of FreeDOS.

On 3/8/2016 9:46 AM, Bret Johnson wrote:
> With a US keyboard layout, R-Alt and L-Alt are supposed to work exactly the 
> same way in the vast majority of programs, including EDIT.
>
> I did a couple of experiments, and in FD-EDIT it doesn't work that way.  It's 
> a bug in the way the program is written.  MS-EDIT works just fine.  I haven't 
> looked at the source code for EDIT, but this should be relatively easy to 
> patch.


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Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[Bret Johnson]

With a US keyboard layout, R-Alt and L-Alt are supposed to work exactly the 
same way in the vast majority of programs, including EDIT.

I did a couple of experiments, and in FD-EDIT it doesn't work that way.  It's a 
bug in the way the program is written.  MS-EDIT works just fine.  I haven't 
looked at the source code for EDIT, but this should be relatively easy to patch.


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Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[Don Flowers]

Oops my bad! I only tested it with EDIT loaded but not with an open
document. Doesn't work.

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 5:35 PM, John Hupp  wrote:

> Does that work in EDIT with a document open?
>
> If so, is that on real hardware or a virtual machine?
>
> I have never had that key combo work in Edit on perhaps a dozen different
> old computers.
>
>
> On 3/5/2016 4:18 PM, Don Flowers wrote:
>
> R ALT-X works for me on a 2014 Acer Aspire E5 Laptop.
> I wonder if the root of this issue is that there no longer seems to be a
> keyboard standard (as we knew it in DOS); where TSRs were the norm.
>
> I have several TSR programs connected to either Left Shift or Left CTRL
> and my favorite TSR (PC-OUTLINE) with a  only works in DOS 3.31 or
> below. All I get now is an echo of the key combination with that one. All
> of my other TSR  programs are functional except Collins dictionary and I
> have a work-around for it with WPShell and WP60.
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 2:26 PM, John Hupp  wrote:
>
>> Ever since I moved from MS-DOS to FreeDOS years ago, I have been annoyed
>> by some R-Alt key behavior.  (This is on a US ANSI-layout keyboard.)
>>
>> The classic illustration was in Edit, where I couldn't R-Alt+X to exit.
>>
>> But my touch-typing technique for a L-Alt+X would be left index finger
>> on L-Alt, plus left ring finger on X.  Nearly impossible!! Other key
>> combinations were awkward at best.
>>
>> And as I noted in another post recently, the mouse pointer in Edit is
>> nearly invisible on the machine I'm currently working with, so
>> mouse-instead-of-keyboard wasn't a decent solution either.
>>
>> But after another dive into this issue, I now notice this:
>>
>> - Even in Edit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt with no document open.
>> - In SetEdit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
>> - In FreeDOS Help, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
>> - In DOOM, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
>>
>> I'm now thinking that in DOS, the kernel's keyboard input method
>> probably consists of rather simply reading the BIOS keyboard buffer, and
>> absent the intervention of a running DOS keyboard driver, it is probably
>> up to each program to decide how to process key combinations.
>>
>> If that's the case, then it's probably just FreeDOS Edit (and perhaps a
>> few other programs) that will annoy me this way.
>>
>> Can anyone confirm or deny this understanding?
>>
>> [By the way, I also looked at running KEYB with a customized US.KEY
>> layout, but it looks like US.KEY only customizes a handful of keys and
>> key combinations, leaving the rest to whatever the default keyboard
>> handling is.  To make R-Alt act like L-Alt across the board, I would
>> have to create MANY lines in the k858 look-up table, specifying what
>> happens for R-Alt+A, R-Alt+B, R-Alt+C, etc.  And it might be that
>> program handling of key combinations could still override that -- I
>> don't know.]
>>
>>
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Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[John Hupp]

Does that work in EDIT with a document open?

If so, is that on real hardware or a virtual machine?

I have never had that key combo work in Edit on perhaps a dozen 
different old computers.


On 3/5/2016 4:18 PM, Don Flowers wrote:

R ALT-X works for me on a 2014 Acer Aspire E5 Laptop.
I wonder if the root of this issue is that there no longer seems to be 
a keyboard standard (as we knew it in DOS); where TSRs were the norm.


I have several TSR programs connected to either Left Shift or Left 
CTRL and my favorite TSR (PC-OUTLINE) with a  only works in 
DOS 3.31 or below. All I get now is an echo of the key combination 
with that one. All of my other TSR  programs are functional except 
Collins dictionary and I have a work-around for it with WPShell and WP60.



On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 2:26 PM, John Hupp > wrote:


Ever since I moved from MS-DOS to FreeDOS years ago, I have been
annoyed
by some R-Alt key behavior.  (This is on a US ANSI-layout keyboard.)

The classic illustration was in Edit, where I couldn't R-Alt+X to
exit.

But my touch-typing technique for a L-Alt+X would be left index finger
on L-Alt, plus left ring finger on X.  Nearly impossible!! Other key
combinations were awkward at best.

And as I noted in another post recently, the mouse pointer in Edit is
nearly invisible on the machine I'm currently working with, so
mouse-instead-of-keyboard wasn't a decent solution either.

But after another dive into this issue, I now notice this:

- Even in Edit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt with no document open.
- In SetEdit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
- In FreeDOS Help, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
- In DOOM, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.

I'm now thinking that in DOS, the kernel's keyboard input method
probably consists of rather simply reading the BIOS keyboard
buffer, and
absent the intervention of a running DOS keyboard driver, it is
probably
up to each program to decide how to process key combinations.

If that's the case, then it's probably just FreeDOS Edit (and
perhaps a
few other programs) that will annoy me this way.

Can anyone confirm or deny this understanding?

[By the way, I also looked at running KEYB with a customized US.KEY
layout, but it looks like US.KEY only customizes a handful of keys and
key combinations, leaving the rest to whatever the default keyboard
handling is.  To make R-Alt act like L-Alt across the board, I would
have to create MANY lines in the k858 look-up table, specifying what
happens for R-Alt+A, R-Alt+B, R-Alt+C, etc.  And it might be that
program handling of key combinations could still override that -- I
don't know.]


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Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[Don Flowers]

R ALT-X works for me on a 2014 Acer Aspire E5 Laptop.
I wonder if the root of this issue is that there no longer seems to be a
keyboard standard (as we knew it in DOS); where TSRs were the norm.

I have several TSR programs connected to either Left Shift or Left CTRL and
my favorite TSR (PC-OUTLINE) with a  only works in DOS 3.31 or
below. All I get now is an echo of the key combination with that one. All
of my other TSR  programs are functional except Collins dictionary and I
have a work-around for it with WPShell and WP60.


On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 2:26 PM, John Hupp  wrote:

> Ever since I moved from MS-DOS to FreeDOS years ago, I have been annoyed
> by some R-Alt key behavior.  (This is on a US ANSI-layout keyboard.)
>
> The classic illustration was in Edit, where I couldn't R-Alt+X to exit.
>
> But my touch-typing technique for a L-Alt+X would be left index finger
> on L-Alt, plus left ring finger on X.  Nearly impossible!! Other key
> combinations were awkward at best.
>
> And as I noted in another post recently, the mouse pointer in Edit is
> nearly invisible on the machine I'm currently working with, so
> mouse-instead-of-keyboard wasn't a decent solution either.
>
> But after another dive into this issue, I now notice this:
>
> - Even in Edit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt with no document open.
> - In SetEdit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
> - In FreeDOS Help, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
> - In DOOM, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
>
> I'm now thinking that in DOS, the kernel's keyboard input method
> probably consists of rather simply reading the BIOS keyboard buffer, and
> absent the intervention of a running DOS keyboard driver, it is probably
> up to each program to decide how to process key combinations.
>
> If that's the case, then it's probably just FreeDOS Edit (and perhaps a
> few other programs) that will annoy me this way.
>
> Can anyone confirm or deny this understanding?
>
> [By the way, I also looked at running KEYB with a customized US.KEY
> layout, but it looks like US.KEY only customizes a handful of keys and
> key combinations, leaving the rest to whatever the default keyboard
> handling is.  To make R-Alt act like L-Alt across the board, I would
> have to create MANY lines in the k858 look-up table, specifying what
> happens for R-Alt+A, R-Alt+B, R-Alt+C, etc.  And it might be that
> program handling of key combinations could still override that -- I
> don't know.]
>
>
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[Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[John Hupp]

Ever since I moved from MS-DOS to FreeDOS years ago, I have been annoyed 
by some R-Alt key behavior.  (This is on a US ANSI-layout keyboard.)

The classic illustration was in Edit, where I couldn't R-Alt+X to exit.

But my touch-typing technique for a L-Alt+X would be left index finger 
on L-Alt, plus left ring finger on X.  Nearly impossible!! Other key 
combinations were awkward at best.

And as I noted in another post recently, the mouse pointer in Edit is 
nearly invisible on the machine I'm currently working with, so 
mouse-instead-of-keyboard wasn't a decent solution either.

But after another dive into this issue, I now notice this:

- Even in Edit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt with no document open.
- In SetEdit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
- In FreeDOS Help, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
- In DOOM, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.

I'm now thinking that in DOS, the kernel's keyboard input method 
probably consists of rather simply reading the BIOS keyboard buffer, and 
absent the intervention of a running DOS keyboard driver, it is probably 
up to each program to decide how to process key combinations.

If that's the case, then it's probably just FreeDOS Edit (and perhaps a 
few other programs) that will annoy me this way.

Can anyone confirm or deny this understanding?

[By the way, I also looked at running KEYB with a customized US.KEY 
layout, but it looks like US.KEY only customizes a handful of keys and 
key combinations, leaving the rest to whatever the default keyboard 
handling is.  To make R-Alt act like L-Alt across the board, I would 
have to create MANY lines in the k858 look-up table, specifying what 
happens for R-Alt+A, R-Alt+B, R-Alt+C, etc.  And it might be that 
program handling of key combinations could still override that -- I 
don't know.]

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