Re: [Freedos-user] documentation update
>I have found that the best DosBox for this kind of thing is "DosBox-X". > >It supports applications better than the original DosBox. Relooking over dosbox-x, yup, seems to have everything anybody might need, including all of their wants such as networking. Focused on other things that really matter in life aside from games, similar to FreeDOS. However, only offers RPMs/flatpack; and I find flatpacks a realy hassle. Void Linux unfortunately only offers generic dosbox and dosbox-staging, no dosbox-x. Granted, I could probably easily build dosbox-x from source. Roger signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] documentation update
Roger via Freedos-user writes: ... > Anyways, Word Perfect 6.2 is working using Dosbox Staging, albeit > without copy/paste, as I think the copy/paste function likely works for > Dosemu. And, have dosbox auto starting with word perfect, using bash > alias: > > alias wp='dosbox -conf /home/roger/dosbox/wp.conf' > > Anyways, I'm way off-topic... I'm going to say something a little off-topic too on this. Hopefully people won't complain too much. I have found that the best DosBox for this kind of thing is "DosBox-X". It supports applications better than the original DosBox. BR, Rob ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] documentation update
> On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 04:43:06PM +0100, Liam Proven via Freedos-user wrote: >On Thu, 9 May 2024 at 22:20, Roger via Freedos-user > wrote: > >> >They also have pre-compiled packages for Fedora and OpenSUSE. >> >No manual compilation is needed for either of the 3 distros. >> >> Already know about these pre-package options for SystemD Linux >> distributions. > >Whoa there. > >Fedora and the Red Hat family, yes: no choice but systemd. Ditto >openSUSE. But dosemu2 also offers `.deb` packages and there are >several non-systemd Debian-family distros, including Devuan, antiX and >MX Linux. I use none of those distribution, although I have tried Devuan and antix, especially just prior to switching from Gentoo to Void Linux several years ago for avoiding wasting time compiling packages. >I also note: > >https://www.reddit.com/r/voidlinux/comments/hqm7z2/xdeb_a_simple_utility_to_convert_debian_packages/ Not a recommended official Void Linux practice, of using a utility (eg. xdeb) for converting one distribution's pre-compiled packages to another distribution's package, due to breaking compile-time dependencies and run-time dependencies. The other problem, most other pre-compiled packages or tarballs improperly will install into /usr, rather than using /usr/local for third party packages not native to the Linux distribution being used. This later is sort of being organized, and most times not easily worked around due to files expecting /usr rather than /usr/local. (eg. libraries) Nature of the beast here. :-/ Anyways, Word Perfect 6.2 is working using Dosbox Staging, albeit without copy/paste, as I think the copy/paste function likely works for Dosemu. And, have dosbox auto starting with word perfect, using bash alias: alias wp='dosbox -conf /home/roger/dosbox/wp.conf' Anyways, I'm way off-topic... signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] documentation update
On Thu, 9 May 2024 at 22:20, Roger via Freedos-user wrote: > >They also have pre-compiled packages for Fedora and OpenSUSE. > >No manual compilation is needed for either of the 3 distros. > > Already know about these pre-package options for SystemD Linux > distributions. Whoa there. Fedora and the Red Hat family, yes: no choice but systemd. Ditto openSUSE. But dosemu2 also offers `.deb` packages and there are several non-systemd Debian-family distros, including Devuan, antiX and MX Linux. I also note: https://www.reddit.com/r/voidlinux/comments/hqm7z2/xdeb_a_simple_utility_to_convert_debian_packages/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] documentation update
On Thu, May 9, 2024, 7:03 PM Roger via Freedos-user < freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > https://wiki.freedos.org/wiki/Main_Page > > [..] The wiki migration (from sourceforge to the new hosting) was incomplete because the SF server update broke the wiki. I didn't get to copy over the "how to install on virtualbox" pages before then - but once I'm done with the client work I'm working on now, I can copy things over from the database copy and then the wiki will be more complete. As complete as it was from when we were hosted at SF. So yes, these pages are currently missing, but they'll be there soon. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] documentation update
https://wiki.freedos.org/wiki/Main_Page How do I install FreeDOS? FreeDOS for everyone: "We recommend using a PC emulator or virtual machine to install FreeDOS. If you don't want to install, you can boot the LiveCD to try it out." And What do I need to run FreeDOS? "If you are new to DOS, we recommend you use a PC emulator or Virtual machine such as VirtualBox to install and boot FreeDOS. You can find PC emulators for all computer platforms (Windows, Linux, Mac.)" Again, on the FreeDOS wiki page concerning installing FreeDOS, vague instructions, "We recommend using a PC emulator or virtual machine to install FreeDOS.", with the subsequent emulator and virtual machine links leading to blank pages. Based on Jim Hall's FreeDOS book, I suggest adding his apparently preferred virtual machine qemu here, so users are not left hanging researching multiple DOS emulators/virtual machines. I think the respective links for emulators and virtual machines on the FreeDOS Wiki page were likely suppose to contain the data I recently wrote about within the past Emails, concerning DOSEMU/DOSEMU2, Qemu, and Bochs. As well as including Qemu incantations for running on Linux and other O/S. However, obviously documenting all possible incantations for every O/S becomes overwhelming! The FreeDOS wiki oddly negates mentioning Qemu, referencing only VirtualBox instead. Shrugs... no big deal, just probably an area needing clarification for others! Roger signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] documentation update
Hi! Turns out I only had some 2020 Bochs and no boot "disk" for it, so I could not easily test any hotkeys :-o But: What if the DOS distro installer can be improved, so it no longer matters which emulator or virtualizer people use? ;-) As I’ve mentioned many times before, it already does that. And has done that since FreeDOS 1.2. I was not referring to "autodetect in which virtual environment you are and do special things for that" but to "be flexible enough with real or virtual PC hardware to just work out of the box with all popular virtual computers", in combination with "to make it easy to install DOS on virtual computers, we could have a disk image with pre-installed DOS, suitable for all types of virtual PC, one size fits all". Of course virtual computers today tend to be tuned towards Linux or Windows running inside them, but my hope was that a few hints for options might be enough, something like "configure your virtual PC to offer AC97 or HDA sound, SATA without AHCI and BIOS instead of UEFI boot mode, then this FreeDOS disk image should be sufficiently happy", leaving "only" the issue that emulators often isolate DOS too well. Because you need specific drivers to get files out of or into the virtual computer, which is a problem very elegantly avoided by dosemu2 or dosbox or similar DOS specific environments. There are drivers for DOS as client OS for some virtual PC, but no universal ones. And there are drivers for a few of the network cards a typical virtual PC can simulate, but maybe not for those simulated by default and maybe not at least one for each popular virtual PC brand? In addition, it is not very convenient to have to use a FTP or NFS or SAMBA client or web browser for DOS to transfer files, which in addition means that you would have to run the corresponding servers on the host operating system, on your real PC. However when it comes to virtual environments, it only has separate config files for DOSBox at this time. In a perfect world, no special config would be needed, because a generic config would be compatible enough. But I agree that exactly because dosbox and similar are MEANT to be used with DOS, it can be good to have a special config to activate the special DOS interaction helpers dosbox and others support :-) ... V8Power Tools program VINFO to detect if and what virtual environment it is installing the OS. At present, that is Virtual Box, VMware, QEMU, DOSBox and some others Good to know :-) As you may recall, the installer now uses this information to also determine how to behave when a disk is not partitioned. On real hardware when a drive has no partitions, the installer will prompt to overwrite the MBR. Inside known virtual environments, it just overwrites it and does not bother the user. I remember that I would prefer if the detection checks whether there is absolutely nothing that could get lost, not whether the target is virtual. If the disk is REALLY totally empty, then there is less need to ask. If it is NOT, then even in a virtual PC I would prefer to be asked. It also is conceivable that the detection just THINKS a disk is empty, due to a read error. So I would prefer the most cautious approach, even if it means that the user has to press a few more buttons during install :-) Big and little USB images, live and legacy CD, plus the floppy edition. The floppy edition is a special case. The live CD could get replaced by a live disk image :-) One which could be either copied on USB or used directly as virtual disk of a virtual PC, with everything pre-installed? Does that live CD sometimes use "install to ramdisk on the fly" strategies for some apps? Or does it really have every app fully pre-installed? Would a live DVD make sense? Of course old PC cannot boot from USB, but then those could also be too old to have decent live performance from CD, so people could rather boot the legacy CD and install from there to their legacy PC harddisk instead? As every installer, the legacy CD also offers a bit of live DOS as well. So to keep the number of downloadable install media at 5, the live CD could get replaced by a live disk image suitable for both USB and virtual PC? This would be convenient for users of virtual computers, because they do not need to worry about installing to actual disks when their disks are imaginary anyway :-) Sounds similar to what the LiveCD provides. Exactly :-) Without the worry of having too small or too large of a disk image Yes and no. DOS cannot use ISO filesystems for interactive persistent read/write access, while it could use FAT on a disk image for exactly that. In addition, users could still take any of the better partitioning tools, as long as it has disk image support, to resize the disk image :-) If there are worries about bootability after resizing, a pre-installed disk image download could contain TWO FAT partitions, one of them as safely to resize D: drive :-) With enough ram, it
Re: [Freedos-user] documentation update
> On Thu, May 09, 2024 at 09:52:39PM +0200, Eric Auer via Freedos-user wrote: > >Hi! >> Initially I tried Bochs, but found Bochs either cannot go full screen >> using SDL2, or I just haven't found the magical incantation... > >A quick google says "try alt-enter" (to go full screen). In 2011, this >had the side-effect of risking to switch to a resolution DOS dislikes, >I have not googled further to check whether Bochs in 2024 has issues? For kicks, just tried Bochs and FreeDOS again with host being Linux, and alt-enter/return key combinations do not appear to do anything. Bochs on Linux using SDL2 nowadays and from forum searches, still doesn't allow full screen for easier font/character reading. Think with Windows hosts, they do have an option for using full screen, along with an elegant graphical Boch's package installer with other already configured options. So again, from my research, Bochs emulation is more likely for those learning the inards of an operating system or investigating transfer of data within an application or software. >> More research showed DOSEMU out of date and not available on Void Linux > >I agree regarding the first part, but have never heard of Void Linux. > >> distribution here, and/or requiring other self compiled libraries, as >> well as DOSEMU2 requiring additional self compiled libraries, with only >> DOSBOX (intended for games) available on Void Linux. > >For Ubuntu, you can simply add the PPA to your software manager, > >https://github.com/dosemu2/dosemu2 explains the details. > >They also have pre-compiled packages for Fedora and OpenSUSE. >No manual compilation is needed for either of the 3 distros. Already know about these pre-package options for SystemD Linux distributions. >> After more research, found Jim Hall's book tends to sway towards >> suggesting Qemu, a virtualizer rather than an Emulator. I have and >> currently use Virtualbox here, but wanted to remain to the de facto used >> emulator for DOS environments. Regardless, Qemu readily resizes to full >> screen, so that I can finally see and read the font/characters. > >I doubt that there is a "de facto used emulator for DOS". > >Personally, I prefer dosemu2. Windows users often prefer dosbox. From what I'm seeing DOSEMU2 emulator, if available for your Linux distribution, then Qemu virtualizor is most often used for Linux hosts. Else, Bochs for scientific research of the O/S or applications within the emulated environment. >Various users also like to use software which emulates or >virtualizes a complete PC on which you then install DOS, >but I have no idea why that would be better than dosbox or >dosemu2 which spezicalize on supporting DOS and offer nice >magic like "any Linux DIRECTORY can become your C: DISK". This was another tricky bit, similar to long ago initially learning host/client operating systems, the difference of emulators and virtualizations. Some .edu site(s) recommend DOSEMU/DOSEMU2 for using DOS Word Perfect, due to copy/paste, etc... >> 1) Jim Hall's FreeDOS qemu incantation likely needs some minimal >> updating, for those that desire to get-up and running quickly... >> >> $ qemu-system-x86_64 -name FreeDOS -machine >> pc-i440fx-4.2,accel=kvm,usb=off,dump-guest-core=off >etc. > >That is a very long command line indeed! An incantation :-o Shrugs, being a command line junky, I like it. A good organized hierarchy/pyramid building schematic of software engineering and usage! Granted, Qemu has some really long command line incantations, with some elusive and not well explained options/arguments, or well organized and easily learned. Sound devices/configuration being one series of options/arguments. But if, like Jim Hall's book, already documents for easy copy/pasting, and successfully works, users will not have to muck around editing large text configuration files with many subsequent saving/loading operations. Almost like click and play, but on the command line. Once working, then can likely save arguments/options to either a configuration or sh/bash/batch script. >> 2) Book or documentation should probably lead or advise users, the >> best (as of date) emulator or virtualizer per their intended use. > >What if the DOS distro installer can be improved, so it no >longer matters which emulator or virtualizer people use? ;-) Likely already the target of DOSEMU/DOSEMU2. Only problem is, I do not think either readily compile on Void Linux, due to missing (fdd?) dependency. Then also noticed I need an additional GIT source compiled library. Long story short, likely need either DOSEMU/DOSEMU2 package for Void Linux. But Void Linux users likely opted only for Bochs or Qemu, as DOSEMU2 might be only slightly differing or userbase only slightly differing between the two, with either Bochs or Qemu being adeqaute for the Void Linux user base. (eg. Even though an emulator is desired versus virtualizer, users are satisfied with using Qemu... clearly guessing work here!!!) >> As
Re: [Freedos-user] documentation update
Hi, > On May 9, 2024, at 3:53 PM, Eric Auer via Freedos-user > wrote: > > > Hi! >> Initially I tried Bochs, but found Bochs either cannot go full screen >> using SDL2, or I just haven't found the magical incantation... > > A quick google says "try alt-enter" (to go full screen). In 2011, this > had the side-effect of risking to switch to a resolution DOS dislikes, > I have not googled further to check whether Bochs in 2024 has issues? > >> More research showed DOSEMU out of date and not available on Void Linux > > I agree regarding the first part, but have never heard of Void Linux. > >> distribution here, and/or requiring other self compiled libraries, as >> well as DOSEMU2 requiring additional self compiled libraries, with only >> DOSBOX (intended for games) available on Void Linux. > > For Ubuntu, you can simply add the PPA to your software manager, > > https://github.com/dosemu2/dosemu2 explains the details. > > They also have pre-compiled packages for Fedora and OpenSUSE. > No manual compilation is needed for either of the 3 distros. > >> After more research, found Jim Hall's book tends to sway towards >> suggesting Qemu, a virtualizer rather than an Emulator. I have and >> currently use Virtualbox here, but wanted to remain to the de facto used >> emulator for DOS environments. Regardless, Qemu readily resizes to full >> screen, so that I can finally see and read the font/characters. > > I doubt that there is a "de facto used emulator for DOS". > > Personally, I prefer dosemu2. Windows users often prefer dosbox. > > Various users also like to use software which emulates or > virtualizes a complete PC on which you then install DOS, > but I have no idea why that would be better than dosbox or > dosemu2 which spezicalize on supporting DOS and offer nice > magic like "any Linux DIRECTORY can become your C: DISK". > >> 1) Jim Hall's FreeDOS qemu incantation likely needs some minimal >> updating, for those that desire to get-up and running quickly... >> $ qemu-system-x86_64 -name FreeDOS -machine >> pc-i440fx-4.2,accel=kvm,usb=off,dump-guest-core=off > etc. > > That is a very long command line indeed! An incantation :-o > >> 2) Book or documentation should probably lead or advise users, the >> best (as of date) emulator or virtualizer per their intended use. > > What if the DOS distro installer can be improved, so it no > longer matters which emulator or virtualizer people use? ;-) As I’ve mentioned many times before, it already does that. And has done that since FreeDOS 1.2. However when it comes to virtual environments, it only has separate config files for DOSBox at this time. It relies on V8Power Tools program VINFO to detect if and what virtual environment it is installing the OS. At present, that is Virtual Box, VMware, QEMU, DOSBox and some others as simply Generic. As you may recall, the installer now uses this information to also determine how to behave when a disk is not partitioned. On real hardware when a drive has no partitions, the installer will prompt to overwrite the MBR. Inside known virtual environments, it just overwrites it and does not bother the user. > >> As they say, the more we keep something simple, the easier >> and more readily we get things done. > > We could provide a disk image with pre-installed DOS. I don’t think we need more types of release media. We already have 5. Big and little USB images, live and legacy CD, plus the floppy edition. > > This would be convenient for users of virtual computers, > because they do not need to worry about installing to > actual disks when their disks are imaginary anyway :-) Sounds similar to what the LiveCD provides. Without the worry of having too small or too large of a disk image for the user’s needs. With enough ram, it relocates itself onto a RAM drive, you can even install and remove packages. Swap the CD out and install other software. The only disadvantages are a slightly longer boot time and changes are not persistent. But the user could have a virtual HD attached to remedy that. > > Regards, Eric > > Jerome > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] documentation update
Hi! Initially I tried Bochs, but found Bochs either cannot go full screen using SDL2, or I just haven't found the magical incantation... A quick google says "try alt-enter" (to go full screen). In 2011, this had the side-effect of risking to switch to a resolution DOS dislikes, I have not googled further to check whether Bochs in 2024 has issues? More research showed DOSEMU out of date and not available on Void Linux I agree regarding the first part, but have never heard of Void Linux. distribution here, and/or requiring other self compiled libraries, as well as DOSEMU2 requiring additional self compiled libraries, with only DOSBOX (intended for games) available on Void Linux. For Ubuntu, you can simply add the PPA to your software manager, https://github.com/dosemu2/dosemu2 explains the details. They also have pre-compiled packages for Fedora and OpenSUSE. No manual compilation is needed for either of the 3 distros. After more research, found Jim Hall's book tends to sway towards suggesting Qemu, a virtualizer rather than an Emulator. I have and currently use Virtualbox here, but wanted to remain to the de facto used emulator for DOS environments. Regardless, Qemu readily resizes to full screen, so that I can finally see and read the font/characters. I doubt that there is a "de facto used emulator for DOS". Personally, I prefer dosemu2. Windows users often prefer dosbox. Various users also like to use software which emulates or virtualizes a complete PC on which you then install DOS, but I have no idea why that would be better than dosbox or dosemu2 which spezicalize on supporting DOS and offer nice magic like "any Linux DIRECTORY can become your C: DISK". 1) Jim Hall's FreeDOS qemu incantation likely needs some minimal updating, for those that desire to get-up and running quickly... $ qemu-system-x86_64 -name FreeDOS -machine pc-i440fx-4.2,accel=kvm,usb=off,dump-guest-core=off etc. That is a very long command line indeed! An incantation :-o 2) Book or documentation should probably lead or advise users, the best (as of date) emulator or virtualizer per their intended use. What if the DOS distro installer can be improved, so it no longer matters which emulator or virtualizer people use? ;-) As they say, the more we keep something simple, the easier and more readily we get things done. We could provide a disk image with pre-installed DOS. This would be convenient for users of virtual computers, because they do not need to worry about installing to actual disks when their disks are imaginary anyway :-) Regards, Eric ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
[Freedos-user] documentation update
MY EXPERIENCE INSTALLING FREEDOS Took a week or so trying to install a DOS enviroment along with an install of Word Perfect, quickly reading/scanning through all available Internet documentation as of 2024/05 date. Some key bits of information were from Jim Hall's FreeDOS book, detailing an install of FreeDOS using Qemu. With the book very quickly and vaguely stating to use an emulator, of the many available emulators available. Nowdays, there's several types emulators/virtualizers, with varying abilities and intend usage scenarios. Initially I tried Bochs, but found Bochs either cannot go full screen using SDL2, or I just haven't found the magical incantation. (I could not read the characters/font!) Later finding Bochs is moreso respected as a de facto or standard scientific or reverse/understanding coding tool. More research showed DOSEMU out of date and not available on Void Linux distribution here, and/or requiring other self compiled libraries, as well as DOSEMU2 requiring additional self compiled libraries, with only DOSBOX (intended for games) available on Void Linux. After more research, found Jim Hall's book tends to sway towards suggesting Qemu, a virtualizer rather than an Emulator. I have and currently use Virtualbox here, but wanted to remain to the de facto used emulator for DOS environments. Regardless, Qemu readily resizes to full screen, so that I can finally see and read the font/characters. LIKELY CHANGES/CLARIFICATIONS How to install FreeDOS without the installer https://www.freedos.org/books/get-started/14-manual-install/ 1) Jim Hall's FreeDOS qemu incantation likely needs some minimal updating, for those that desire to get-up and running quickly within a DOS environment: $ qemu-system-x86_64 -name FreeDOS -machine pc-i440fx-4.2,accel=kvm,usb=off,dump-guest-core=off -enable-kvm -cpu host -m 8 -overcommit mem-lock=off -no-user-config -nodefaults -rtc base=utc,driftfix=slew -machine hpet=off -boot menu=on,strict=on -sandbox on,obsolete=deny,elevateprivileges=deny,spawn=deny,resourcecontrol=deny -msg timestamp=on -drive format=raw,file=freedos-mine.img -drive format=raw,file=FD13FULL/FD13FULL.img -vga cirrus -usbdevice mouse -device sb16 -device adlib -audio driver=alsa,id=snd0,out.dev=default -audiodev alsa,id=snd0 -machine pcspk-audiodev=snd0 Hpet option needed updating, using -drive was necessary for averting warning during start concerning raw format, sound options/arguments have been renamed/reorganized with sound not known if working using ALSA, but annoying PC speaker beep works! Another note, likely using the USB full image, rather than multiple floppies is far easier and more simplified. I'm not sure if the other non-explained options/arguments are still needed, or if additional options/arguments are required with the updated Qemu environment, but so far FreeDOS boots and seems to work. 2) Book or documentation should probably lead or advise users, the best (as of date) emulator or virtualizer per their intended use. (eg. under-the-hood operations, likely use Bochs, while most others should likely use Qemu?) As they say, the more we keep something simple, the easier and more readily we get things done. Roger signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
