Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-15 Thread Björn Morell
Plop sounds good :) I use a floppy on my old 486 to allow me to boot 
from CD (boots both the legacy and the live freedos cd)


Den 2022-12-15 kl. 12:12, skrev Liam Proven:

On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 at 20:39, Walter Vermeir  wrote:

My new old laptop has 32mb RAM. KolibriOS needs 8mb RAM. Looks
interesting. But also did not boot.

OK, hang on.

You did not give us much info at the beginning.

32 *MB* RAM? Megabytes?

That is a very old laptop, then. As in around 25 years old?


The bios settings has only the listing to change the boot sequence order
between FDD and HDD.

It does not have support for booting from a CD?

Then it is vintage kit, and no, I don't think anything in the gigabyte
range will work.

DOS-era machines had many limitations on IDE disk support, and
depending on age, the biggest disk they will support could be 512MB
(½GB), 1GB, 2GB, or maybe for later ones (e.g. PowerMac G3), 8GB.

32GB is well over all of those and it's much much too big.

Secondly, how are you attaching an SD card to a DOS-era machine with
32MB of RAM? That is before SD existed. It's mostly before USB too --
maybe USB 1 at best.

If you want to boot a DOS-era machine from removable mass storage, try
the PLOP boot manager.

https://www.plop.at/
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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-15 Thread Liam Proven
On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 at 20:39, Walter Vermeir  wrote:
>
> My new old laptop has 32mb RAM. KolibriOS needs 8mb RAM. Looks
> interesting. But also did not boot.

OK, hang on.

You did not give us much info at the beginning.

32 *MB* RAM? Megabytes?

That is a very old laptop, then. As in around 25 years old?

> The bios settings has only the listing to change the boot sequence order
> between FDD and HDD.

It does not have support for booting from a CD?

Then it is vintage kit, and no, I don't think anything in the gigabyte
range will work.

DOS-era machines had many limitations on IDE disk support, and
depending on age, the biggest disk they will support could be 512MB
(½GB), 1GB, 2GB, or maybe for later ones (e.g. PowerMac G3), 8GB.

32GB is well over all of those and it's much much too big.

Secondly, how are you attaching an SD card to a DOS-era machine with
32MB of RAM? That is before SD existed. It's mostly before USB too --
maybe USB 1 at best.

If you want to boot a DOS-era machine from removable mass storage, try
the PLOP boot manager.

https://www.plop.at/

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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-13 Thread Björn Morell
I do not know how freedos talk to services but I load FreeDos with GRUB 
on one machine and with LILO on another one.


Den 2022-12-13 kl. 22:02, skrev Roderick Klein:

On 13-12-22 21:41, Björn Morell wrote:

I think GRUB boot loader could help as it is an UEFI application. SD
with one nix partition and one FAT partition for FreeDos 2 Gb or less.


The problem is tha when you can load DOS on a UEFI system. What BIOS 
services does FreeDOS talk to ?


Roderick



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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-13 Thread Roderick Klein

On 13-12-22 21:41, Björn Morell wrote:

I think GRUB boot loader could help as it is an UEFI application. SD
with one nix partition and one FAT partition for FreeDos 2 Gb or less.


The problem is tha when you can load DOS on a UEFI system. What BIOS 
services does FreeDOS talk to ?


Roderick



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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-13 Thread Björn Morell

forgot the link

https://linuxhint.com/boot-usb-using-grub/

Den 2022-12-13 kl. 20:37, skrev Walter Vermeir:

Op 13/12/2022 om 18:05 schreef Jerome Shidel:

Did you try to boot the LegacyCD or the LiveCD?


I tried both.

And also tried KolibriOS

http://kolibrios.org/en/

My new old laptop has 32mb RAM. KolibriOS needs 8mb RAM. Looks 
interesting. But also did not boot.


The bios settings has only the listing to change the boot sequence 
order between FDD and HDD.


Walter






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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-13 Thread Björn Morell
I think GRUB boot loader could help as it is an UEFI application. SD 
with one nix partition and one FAT partition for FreeDos 2 Gb or less.


Den 2022-12-13 kl. 20:37, skrev Walter Vermeir:

Op 13/12/2022 om 18:05 schreef Jerome Shidel:

Did you try to boot the LegacyCD or the LiveCD?


I tried both.

And also tried KolibriOS

http://kolibrios.org/en/

My new old laptop has 32mb RAM. KolibriOS needs 8mb RAM. Looks 
interesting. But also did not boot.


The bios settings has only the listing to change the boot sequence 
order between FDD and HDD.


Walter






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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-13 Thread Walter Vermeir

Op 13/12/2022 om 18:05 schreef Jerome Shidel:

Did you try to boot the LegacyCD or the LiveCD?


I tried both.

And also tried KolibriOS

http://kolibrios.org/en/

My new old laptop has 32mb RAM. KolibriOS needs 8mb RAM. Looks 
interesting. But also did not boot.


The bios settings has only the listing to change the boot sequence order 
between FDD and HDD.


Walter






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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-13 Thread Jerome Shidel
Hi, 

> On Dec 13, 2022, at 12:14 PM, Roderick Klein  wrote:
> 
> On 13-12-22 17:26, Jerome Shidel wrote:
>> Are you certain that the machine you are trying to install FreeDOS is not 
>> UEFI only and supports BIOS (Legacy) boot? And, that is enabled in the BIOS 
>> settings?
>> 
>> Most modern Linux installers can boot both ways. Unfortunately, UEFI is not 
>> an option for FreeDOS at present.
> 
> Well will it ever be an option possible to implement UEFI for FreeDOS?
> 
> I personally think its not possible The issue is that UEFI is mostly the same 
> as a BIOS. But one of the issue's is that during boot a UEFI loader calls 
> ExitFromBootServices() if you could keep these services active...  But that 
> is not possible I think. FreeDOS depends on a lot of BIOS calls.
> 
> You MIGHT be able to write a UEFI loader that provides BIOS services to 
> FreeDOS with SeaBIOS. But there is much code involved. You would effectively 
> write half a VM more or less...
> 
> Roderick
> 

Correct. It would be a good deal of work to boot FreeDOS that way. 

Alternatively, it might be easier to just create a custom “Thin” version of 
linux to host a VM using QEMU or DOSBox. Then run FreeDOS under that VM. 
Although performance would not be as good as running on bare metal, it solves 
several other issues. For instance, network and sound cards could be supported 
through the linux host providing generic support under DOS.  

Although less work, that is not a small task to create or maintain either. They 
are the primary reasons there is only BIOS support at present and for the 
foreseeable future.

Maybe someday. But, not likely anytime soon.

:-)

Jerome




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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-13 Thread Roderick Klein

On 13-12-22 17:26, Jerome Shidel wrote:

Are you certain that the machine you are trying to install FreeDOS is not UEFI 
only and supports BIOS (Legacy) boot? And, that is enabled in the BIOS settings?

Most modern Linux installers can boot both ways. Unfortunately, UEFI is not an 
option for FreeDOS at present.


Well will it ever be an option possible to implement UEFI for FreeDOS?

I personally think its not possible The issue is that UEFI is mostly the 
same as a BIOS. But one of the issue's is that during boot a UEFI loader 
calls ExitFromBootServices() if you could keep these services active... 
 But that is not possible I think. FreeDOS depends on a lot of BIOS calls.


You MIGHT be able to write a UEFI loader that provides BIOS services to 
FreeDOS with SeaBIOS. But there is much code involved. You would 
effectively write half a VM more or less...


Roderick





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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-13 Thread Jerome Shidel



> On Dec 13, 2022, at 11:46 AM, Walter Vermeir  wrote:
> 
> p 13/12/2022 om 17:26 schreef Jerome Shidel:
>> Are you certain that the machine you are trying to install FreeDOS is not 
>> UEFI only and supports BIOS (Legacy) boot? And, that is enabled in the BIOS 
>> settings?
>> 
>> Most modern Linux installers can boot both ways. Unfortunately, UEFI is not 
>> an option for FreeDOS at present.
> 
> 
> No, I am not. I assumed 'If I can boot Linux install media then it must also 
> work for FreeDOS'. I know 'secured boot' is disabled, I get that message in 
> Bios.  But the USB media listing starts with UEFI , so yes, that is the 
> problem.
> 
> So at least that makes sense now.
> 
> The new old computer I bought to use for FreeDOS also has it's challenges. It 
> does not seems to support 'boot form CD-rom'. And the diskette station is 
> broken.

Did you try to boot the LegacyCD or the LiveCD? 

Besides the LiveCD providing a Live FreeDOS Environment at boot, there are some 
technical differences between how each boot. There is a narrow window of 
machines that can boot using the method on the LegacyCD but not boot the 
LiveCD. 

As for installation, they use the same installer and install the same OS files.

> 
> Because I have a module to replace the internal hard disk with an SD-card and 
> I remembered I still have a computer in my garage I had forgotten I probably 
> can install FreeDOS on an SD-card with that computer. And then install that 
> SD-card as hard disk in the old laptop.
> 
> Walter
> 

That should work. 

You also have a couple other options.

For example, the installer supports OEM install mode. Basically, you can use a 
tool like DD under linux and just write the Full USB to that device. Then, slap 
the drive into the computer and boot. You will be able to create a new 
partition and install the OS to that. Once the OS has been installed, it will 
switch booting over to the new partition. Basically, that leaves the original 
partition as a Recover Partition and source for package installation and 
removal (without needing to insert the CD).

There are other methods as well. Videos on Youtube show installing to a VM and 
coping that to a drive. And other ways as well.

:-)

Jerome



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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-13 Thread Walter Vermeir

p 13/12/2022 om 17:26 schreef Jerome Shidel:

Are you certain that the machine you are trying to install FreeDOS is not UEFI 
only and supports BIOS (Legacy) boot? And, that is enabled in the BIOS settings?

Most modern Linux installers can boot both ways. Unfortunately, UEFI is not an 
option for FreeDOS at present.



No, I am not. I assumed 'If I can boot Linux install media then it must 
also work for FreeDOS'. I know 'secured boot' is disabled, I get that 
message in Bios.  But the USB media listing starts with UEFI , so yes, 
that is the problem.


So at least that makes sense now.

The new old computer I bought to use for FreeDOS also has it's 
challenges. It does not seems to support 'boot form CD-rom'. And the 
diskette station is broken.


Because I have a module to replace the internal hard disk with an 
SD-card and I remembered I still have a computer in my garage I had 
forgotten I probably can install FreeDOS on an SD-card with that 
computer. And then install that SD-card as hard disk in the old laptop.


Walter




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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-13 Thread Jerome Shidel
Are you certain that the machine you are trying to install FreeDOS is not UEFI 
only and supports BIOS (Legacy) boot? And, that is enabled in the BIOS 
settings? 

Most modern Linux installers can boot both ways. Unfortunately, UEFI is not an 
option for FreeDOS at present.




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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-11 Thread Walter Vermeir

Op 11/12/2022 om 14:17 schreef Liam Proven:

Write with what?

Have you tried USB?

If you don't know it, I recommend that you look at and try Ventoy. It
makes ISO/IMG file handling much easier.



Did not knew that one. Will give it a try.

I have been using the default GUI tool for my MX Linux distro 'MX Live 
USB Maker' that can write any ISO to a usb-stick (or SD card) . I select 
the option for a plain write, not 'a live CD'.


And the gnome 'MultiWriter' tool. That I believe just uses dd.

Greetings,

Walter



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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-11 Thread Walter Vermeir

Op 10/12/2022 om 11:16 schreef Tomas By:

On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 11:11:43 +0100, Tomas By wrote:

One possibility is that DOS cannot understand the format of the card.


Well, no, that does not make sense.

But it sounds like card not readable if it just goes back to the menu.

/Tomas


Yes, I agree. The card is in the format the source image was created.

But indeed, it does seems not to read it. Not even giving an error.

That is way I used the same two SD cards to created Linux boot installs 
that do work to test that. And I have used different software to write 
the images and check the option to verify the data written.


Not used Etcher this time. But I have used Etcher a couple of weeks ago 
when I was also trying to install FreeDOS. Also did not worked. But at 
that time the install media did not even showed up to try it.


I do not have an other computer I can use for this. My laptop has an ARM 
chip. That will not work.


In any case, see other responds of me, I have now a new old computer to 
play with. Hope that will work better. I see know the sentence I have 
written above this. I do now have now a new old computer. Maybe I can 
use that one. But the idea for buying it was to not install FreeDOS on 
my main desktop.


In any case thanks for the advice Tomas.

Greetings,

Walter






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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-11 Thread Walter Vermeir

Hi Bjorn,

Thanks for the advice.

The primary point is that I do not understand way I am not able to boot 
from the created media. As it does work to boot on those media if I put 
a Linux distro on it.


So far as I understand it should work. That fact that it is FreeDOS or 
Linux or FreeBSD should not make a difference.


I know it is possible to manually copy the files over on a created Fat 
partition.


But the problem is that I do not get in to the setup process. And it 
should work. At least I would think.


In any case;

I just have bought dedicated computer to use for FreeDOS.

A Toshiba Satellite Pro 430SDT. From 1996. It must have been a + $2000 
computer in the day. Now I got it for €40 with diskette station, a wifi 
and ethernet card. And a module to replace the original hard disk with 
an SD-card.


Looks very nice for its age. Has a build in CD-rom player.

I will have an usb cd/dvd writer tomorrow. And have CD-r's. So I can 
burn an install CD for it.


So now I have a computer form the native time of DOS. If that does not 
work I do not know what will work.


Greetings,

Walter

Op 10/12/2022 om 10:57 schreef Björn Morell:


Sorry I miss read in my first reply.

You want to boot from SD, never tried that. I have FreeDos installed 
on a partition on my nix machine (second generaiton i7) and can chose 
it in the GRUB menu). Maybe install FreeDos on a partition made with 
gparted on the SD with your linux distro ?


Den 2022-12-10 kl. 10:17, skrev Björn Morell:


Den 2022-12-09 kl. 22:17, skrev Walter Vermeir:


Hi,

I am trying install FreeDOS on my computer (not virtual) now for a 
while and failing long enough to acknowledge that I need to ask for 
help.


Last time I installed DOS I was using a 486 with a diskette drive. 
My daily driver is Linux since the last 20 years.


I have been using two 32gb SD-cards. When I write the ISO of my 
Linux distro to the SD-cards I can boot from those SD cards without 
a problem.


When I write the FreeDOS ISO to the SD-cards or the FreeDOS USB 
version , the IMG  file, to the  SD-cards it gives nothing. When I 
select the device to boot from it just jumps back to the boot device 
select menu of my BIOS. No error.


Have written the FreeDOS ISO to both DS-cards with check of the 
write was correct. And also with the IMG file. Makes not difference.


I must be missing something obvious.

Would appreciate suggestions.

The computer I am trying to boot it from is this very modest 
mini-pc, using the usb-port with a SD-to-usb adapter. Has an Intel 
Celeron J4115.


https://www.bmax-eu.com/collections/bmax-mini-pc/products/bmax-b2-plus

Thanks,

Walter

I guess there is different ways to install, I put the IMG on to a 
CD, booted my IBM 486 100 Mhz with a floopy that lets me boot from 
CD, then I install FreeDos to the CF-card (in a CF to IDE adapter), 
the CF card I prepared with GParted on a nix machine, used <2 GB 
partition and FAT16. I did the same thing on a 1000 Mhz Coppermine.



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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-11 Thread Liam Proven
On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 at 22:38, Walter Vermeir  wrote:
>
> When I write the FreeDOS ISO to the SD-cards or the FreeDOS USB version

Write with what?

Have you tried USB?

If you don't know it, I recommend that you look at and try Ventoy. It
makes ISO/IMG file handling much easier.


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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-10 Thread Tomas By
On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 11:31:05 +0100, Tomas By wrote:
> If you have access to some other machine [...]


Another thing you can try is to boot FD from USB and then format the
SD card from there + do "sys d:", or whichever drive it is.

Generally it is best to format and partition from the OS you want to
use. At least that was the case in the past, not sure about FD on
modern machines.

/Tomas


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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-10 Thread Tomas By
On Fri, 09 Dec 2022 22:17:22 +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
> I am trying install FreeDOS on my computer (not virtual) now for a
> while and failing long enough to acknowledge that I need to ask for
> help.


If you have access to some other machine you could install FreeDOS on
the card from that one and varify that it works. Unlike some other
OSs, DOS handles being moved to a new machine fairly gracefully.

/Tomas


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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-10 Thread Tomas By
On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 11:11:43 +0100, Tomas By wrote:
> One possibility is that DOS cannot understand the format of the card.


Well, no, that does not make sense.

But it sounds like card not readable if it just goes back to the menu.

/Tomas


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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-10 Thread Tomas By
On Fri, 09 Dec 2022 22:17:22 +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
> I am trying install FreeDOS on my computer (not virtual) now for a
> while and failing long enough to acknowledge that I need to ask for
> help. [...]
> When I write the FreeDOS ISO to the SD-cards or the FreeDOS USB
> version , the IMG  file, to the  SD-cards it gives nothing. When I
> select the device to boot from it just jumps back to the boot device
> select menu of my BIOS. No error.


One possibility is that DOS cannot understand the format of the
card. Try to find out what that is (ie FAT something).

Secondly, there are various ways to write image to card, and not all
result in bootable (I believe/suspect).

I have been using "Etcher" for this, and not had any problems.

/Tomas


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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-10 Thread Björn Morell

Sorry I miss read in my first reply.

You want to boot from SD, never tried that. I have FreeDos installed on 
a partition on my nix machine (second generaiton i7) and can chose it in 
the GRUB menu). Maybe install FreeDos on a partition made with gparted 
on the SD with your linux distro ?


Den 2022-12-10 kl. 10:17, skrev Björn Morell:


Den 2022-12-09 kl. 22:17, skrev Walter Vermeir:


Hi,

I am trying install FreeDOS on my computer (not virtual) now for a 
while and failing long enough to acknowledge that I need to ask for 
help.


Last time I installed DOS I was using a 486 with a diskette drive. My 
daily driver is Linux since the last 20 years.


I have been using two 32gb SD-cards. When I write the ISO of my Linux 
distro to the SD-cards I can boot from those SD cards without a problem.


When I write the FreeDOS ISO to the SD-cards or the FreeDOS USB 
version , the IMG  file, to the  SD-cards it gives nothing. When I 
select the device to boot from it just jumps back to the boot device 
select menu of my BIOS. No error.


Have written the FreeDOS ISO to both DS-cards with check of the write 
was correct. And also with the IMG file. Makes not difference.


I must be missing something obvious.

Would appreciate suggestions.

The computer I am trying to boot it from is this very modest mini-pc, 
using the usb-port with a SD-to-usb adapter. Has an Intel Celeron J4115.


https://www.bmax-eu.com/collections/bmax-mini-pc/products/bmax-b2-plus

Thanks,

Walter

I guess there is different ways to install, I put the IMG on to a CD, 
booted my IBM 486 100 Mhz with a floopy that lets me boot from CD, 
then I install FreeDos to the CF-card (in a CF to IDE adapter), the 
CF card I prepared with GParted on a nix machine, used <2 GB 
partition and FAT16. I did the same thing on a 1000 Mhz Coppermine.



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Re: [Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-10 Thread Björn Morell

Den 2022-12-09 kl. 22:17, skrev Walter Vermeir:


Hi,

I am trying install FreeDOS on my computer (not virtual) now for a 
while and failing long enough to acknowledge that I need to ask for help.


Last time I installed DOS I was using a 486 with a diskette drive. My 
daily driver is Linux since the last 20 years.


I have been using two 32gb SD-cards. When I write the ISO of my Linux 
distro to the SD-cards I can boot from those SD cards without a problem.


When I write the FreeDOS ISO to the SD-cards or the FreeDOS USB 
version , the IMG  file, to the  SD-cards it gives nothing. When I 
select the device to boot from it just jumps back to the boot device 
select menu of my BIOS. No error.


Have written the FreeDOS ISO to both DS-cards with check of the write 
was correct. And also with the IMG file. Makes not difference.


I must be missing something obvious.

Would appreciate suggestions.

The computer I am trying to boot it from is this very modest mini-pc, 
using the usb-port with a SD-to-usb adapter. Has an Intel Celeron J4115.


https://www.bmax-eu.com/collections/bmax-mini-pc/products/bmax-b2-plus

Thanks,

Walter

I guess there is different ways to install, I put the IMG on to a CD, 
booted my IBM 486 100 Mhz with a floopy that lets me boot from CD, 
then I install FreeDos to the CF-card (in a CF to IDE adapter), the CF 
card I prepared with GParted on a nix machine, used <2 GB partition 
and FAT16. I did the same thing on a 1000 Mhz Coppermine.



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[Freedos-user] failing to create bootable install media (or at least boot from it)

2022-12-09 Thread Walter Vermeir

Hi,

I am trying install FreeDOS on my computer (not virtual) now for a while 
and failing long enough to acknowledge that I need to ask for help.


Last time I installed DOS I was using a 486 with a diskette drive. My 
daily driver is Linux since the last 20 years.


I have been using two 32gb SD-cards. When I write the ISO of my Linux 
distro to the SD-cards I can boot from those SD cards without a problem.


When I write the FreeDOS ISO to the SD-cards or the FreeDOS USB version 
, the IMG  file, to the  SD-cards it gives nothing. When I select the 
device to boot from it just jumps back to the boot device select menu of 
my BIOS. No error.


Have written the FreeDOS ISO to both DS-cards with check of the write 
was correct. And also with the IMG file. Makes not difference.


I must be missing something obvious.

Would appreciate suggestions.

The computer I am trying to boot it from is this very modest mini-pc, 
using the usb-port with a SD-to-usb adapter. Has an Intel Celeron J4115.


https://www.bmax-eu.com/collections/bmax-mini-pc/products/bmax-b2-plus

Thanks,

Walter

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