Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Beniamino Cenci Goga]

On 29/lug/2012, at 17:08, Kris Tilford  wrote:

> AFAIK there's no such thing as a 1 GHz G4 for any PCI PowerMac, the fastest 
> possible would be 600 MHz because of the 50 MHz system bus and the 12x 
> multiplier limitation (50 MHz x12 = 600 MHz). I don't believe any 600 MHz G4 
> was ever manufactured for the PCI Macs, so the limit would probably be 500 
> MHz unless you have one of the ZIF PCI cards that will accept a rare 600 MHz 
> ZIF CPU.

Later G4 chips had 20:1 bus ratio.

http://www.mail-archive.com/pci-powermacs@mail.maclaunch.com/msg29153.html

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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Beniamino Cenci Goga]

> 
> Nice try! Instead of this supposed photo, please give any link to an actual 
> Sonnet product that supports a 1 GHz G4 with an L2 & L3 cache on a PCI 
> PowerMac such as the 7600. I do not believe any such product exists. And also 
> explain how you get a 20x bus ratio. We've had these fake postings before, 
> the guy with the photos of System Profiler showing his Snow Leopard on a PPC 
> Mac, etc.
> 
> So tell us the name of the Sonnet card you're using, and provide a link to 
> any review of that product showing it supports 1 GHz operation in a 7600. 
> Also, that 3dfx graphics card would be a total dog in OS X, even slower than 
> the built-in video, so I can understand why you complain about OS X on this 
> 7600. With an OS X supported Radeon card, and PCI Extreme to enable Quartz 
> Extreme acceleration (there's even Core Image acceleration for GeForce PCI), 
> you'd be having a MUCH better time in OS X.

first link:
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/archives/jun06/061606.html

second link:
http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7600

third link:
http://www.welovemacs.com/ppcg410002m.html

final link, Sonnet leaflet:
http://www.sonnettech.com/publicfiles/pdfs/pdf_datasheets/cpci_datasheet.pdf

As soon as I have time I'll send the picture of my stuff.

Ben

Sent from my iPad

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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Illirik Smirnov]

I have a 7600 with a 400mhz chip, and I don't bother with OS X at all. Back
when I used it, there was OS9.something on it and it ran well. Just my two
useless cents.
-- --
Illirik Smirnov




On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> And here's two sets of benchmarks to prove it. First,
>

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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Cameron Kaiser]

> > > http://www.everymac.com/upgrade_cards/sonnettech/crescendo_g4_pci/crescendo_pci_g4_800.html
> > 
> > Yes, I forgot about this card. It's drawback is the 4-to-1 backside  
> > bus ratio. A 400 MHz card with a 2-to-1 backside bus runs nearly as  
> > fast because of this limitation.
> 
> Now *you're* the one who's going to have to provide numbers. :P While I
> definitely agree the 800MHz card is hobbled because of the bus ratio, I
> would strongly contest it being *half* as fast.

And here's two sets of benchmarks to prove it. First,

http://forums.macworld.com/index.php?/topic/14339-crescendo-pci-g4-800mhz-benchmarks/

This is a user comparison to a 450MHz XLR8 card in a PowerTower Pro.
Second,

http://eshop.macsales.com/Reviews/Framework.cfm?page=/Benchmarks/sonnet800/page2.html

The 7300 with the G4/800 (the setup I'm using) is clearly faster --
sometimes almost double -- than the 7300 with a G4/450. Now, in fairness,
tests that are bus-bound clearly suffer compared to "real" G4s depending on
the test, but that's not the comparison we're making here. Interestingly, in
raw processor performance in Macbench, the 7300 beat the Luxo iMac G4/800.

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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Cameron Kaiser]

> > http://www.everymac.com/upgrade_cards/sonnettech/crescendo_g4_pci/crescendo_pci_g4_800.html
> 
> Yes, I forgot about this card. It's drawback is the 4-to-1 backside  
> bus ratio. A 400 MHz card with a 2-to-1 backside bus runs nearly as  
> fast because of this limitation.

Now *you're* the one who's going to have to provide numbers. :P While I
definitely agree the 800MHz card is hobbled because of the bus ratio, I
would strongly contest it being *half* as fast.

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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Kris Tilford]

On Jul 29, 2012, at 6:39 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

I don't know the specific card he is using (ZIF?), but here is the  
800MHz

G4 my 7300 uses.


Yes, a ZIF card would seem to be the only possibility, if you could  
find the rare 1 GHz G4 ZIF.



http://www.everymac.com/upgrade_cards/sonnettech/crescendo_g4_pci/crescendo_pci_g4_800.html


Yes, I forgot about this card. It's drawback is the 4-to-1 backside  
bus ratio. A 400 MHz card with a 2-to-1 backside bus runs nearly as  
fast because of this limitation.


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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Cameron Kaiser]

> > http://www.webalice.it/beniamino.cenci.goga/68k/Power_Macintosh_7600.html
> 
> Nice try! Instead of this supposed photo, please give any link to an  
> actual Sonnet product that supports a 1 GHz G4 with an L2 & L3 cache  
> on a PCI PowerMac such as the 7600. I do not believe any such product  
> exists. And also explain how you get a 20x bus ratio. We've had these  
> fake postings before, the guy with the photos of System Profiler  
> showing his Snow Leopard on a PPC Mac, etc.

I don't know the specific card he is using (ZIF?), but here is the 800MHz
G4 my 7300 uses.

http://www.everymac.com/upgrade_cards/sonnettech/crescendo_g4_pci/crescendo_pci_g4_800.html

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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Kris Tilford]

On Jul 29, 2012, at 12:59 PM, Beniamino Cenci Goga wrote:


http://www.webalice.it/beniamino.cenci.goga/68k/Power_Macintosh_7600.html


Nice try! Instead of this supposed photo, please give any link to an  
actual Sonnet product that supports a 1 GHz G4 with an L2 & L3 cache  
on a PCI PowerMac such as the 7600. I do not believe any such product  
exists. And also explain how you get a 20x bus ratio. We've had these  
fake postings before, the guy with the photos of System Profiler  
showing his Snow Leopard on a PPC Mac, etc.


So tell us the name of the Sonnet card you're using, and provide a  
link to any review of that product showing it supports 1 GHz operation  
in a 7600. Also, that 3dfx graphics card would be a total dog in OS X,  
even slower than the built-in video, so I can understand why you  
complain about OS X on this 7600. With an OS X supported Radeon card,  
and PCI Extreme to enable Quartz Extreme acceleration (there's even  
Core Image acceleration for GeForce PCI), you'd be having a MUCH  
better time in OS X.


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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Beniamino Cenci Goga]

If the whole system is well tuned it runs fine, under OS 9. But not that faster 
than the G3 it had before. Now the Carrier ZIF is into an 8600 with a G3 350 
MHz and the performace are quite similar.

All these card are a true nightmare and as soon as you add memory or cards, or 
even HDs the stability decreases. Once I got rid of the SCSI for HD, though, 
the whole system gained stability.

By todays standards the SCSI dogma was really painful!

I managed to install OS X, 10.3 and probably also 10.4, but I kept having 
random crashes so that my Mac basement G4 became a blue and white G3 upgraded 
to G4 with another sonnet thing.

Basically most of my Mac basement Macs are heavily upgraded:

http://www.webalice.it/beniamino.cenci.goga/68k/Macintosh_Classic_XLR8d.html

Sent from my iPad

On 29/lug/2012, at 21:38, Cameron Kaiser  wrote:

>> http://www.webalice.it/beniamino.cenci.goga/68k/Power_Macintosh_7600.html
> 
> Aha, so you have the 1GHz version of the 800MHz I have. How does it work
> for you? I had trouble with the 1GHz G3 I used to use, but I have had better
> luck with Sonnet cards.
> 
> --
>  personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ 
> --
>  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
> -- Point to ponder: without sponges, how much deeper would the ocean be? 
> --
> 
> -- 
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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Cameron Kaiser]

> http://www.webalice.it/beniamino.cenci.goga/68k/Power_Macintosh_7600.html

Aha, so you have the 1GHz version of the 800MHz I have. How does it work
for you? I had trouble with the 1GHz G3 I used to use, but I have had better
luck with Sonnet cards.

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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Cameron Kaiser]

> AFAIK there's no such thing as a 1 GHz G4 for any PCI PowerMac, the  
> fastest possible would be 600 MHz because of the 50 MHz system bus and  
> the 12x multiplier limitation (50 MHz x12 = 600 MHz).

There is in fact an 800MHz G4 that Sonnet manufactured (I have one in my
7300), and PowerLogix manufactured a 1GHz G3 card which I had nothing
but trouble with. These are probably double-pumping the bus or some other
trick to deal with the multiplier limitation.

That said, I have not been pleased with OS X's performance on beige Macs,
even upgraded, even Gossamer G3s. I prefer to run OS 9 on those machines.

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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Beniamino Cenci Goga]

http://www.webalice.it/beniamino.cenci.goga/68k/Power_Macintosh_7600.html

;-)

Sent from my iPad

On 29/lug/2012, at 17:08, Kris Tilford  wrote:

> On Jul 29, 2012, at 8:45 AM, Beniamino Cenci Goga wrote:
> 
>> My 1996 PowerMac 7600 with a G4 Sonnet 1000 MHz, IDE HD connected to 
>> internal IDE card and plenty of RAM screams with OS 9, but when I boot off 
>> OS X it can barely keep the pace of a modest Wallstreet 233MHz.
> 
> This isn't correct. I own a 7600 with a 450 MHz G4 and it handles OS X 
> 10.4.11 a LOT better than a 233 MHz Wallstreet. It can play most internet 
> steaming video smoothly, and can "almost" play 1080p HD video.
> 
> AFAIK there's no such thing as a 1 GHz G4 for any PCI PowerMac, the fastest 
> possible would be 600 MHz because of the 50 MHz system bus and the 12x 
> multiplier limitation (50 MHz x12 = 600 MHz). I don't believe any 600 MHz G4 
> was ever manufactured for the PCI Macs, so the limit would probably be 500 
> MHz unless you have one of the ZIF PCI cards that will accept a rare 600 MHz 
> ZIF CPU.
> 
> The key to running OS X on old-world Macs is a fast video card and max RAM. I 
> use flashed PC VisionTek Xtasy Radeon 9100 64MB with the modified Mac Radeon 
> 8500 ROM. There are some better cards, I believe the Radeon 9800 PCI might be 
> best, or perhaps the nVidia GeForce FX6200 256MB? The 7600 max's out at 1 GB 
> RAM (8x128MB). It also helps to have OS X on a RAID 0 striped pair.
> 
> A 233 MHz Wallstreet is useless for OS X. A max'd out 7600 is possibly useful 
> still, but the cost of making it useful is past the sweet spot and makes no 
> sense economically.
> 
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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Kris Tilford]

On Jul 29, 2012, at 8:45 AM, Beniamino Cenci Goga wrote:

My 1996 PowerMac 7600 with a G4 Sonnet 1000 MHz, IDE HD connected to  
internal IDE card and plenty of RAM screams with OS 9, but when I  
boot off OS X it can barely keep the pace of a modest Wallstreet  
233MHz.


This isn't correct. I own a 7600 with a 450 MHz G4 and it handles OS X  
10.4.11 a LOT better than a 233 MHz Wallstreet. It can play most  
internet steaming video smoothly, and can "almost" play 1080p HD video.


AFAIK there's no such thing as a 1 GHz G4 for any PCI PowerMac, the  
fastest possible would be 600 MHz because of the 50 MHz system bus and  
the 12x multiplier limitation (50 MHz x12 = 600 MHz). I don't believe  
any 600 MHz G4 was ever manufactured for the PCI Macs, so the limit  
would probably be 500 MHz unless you have one of the ZIF PCI cards  
that will accept a rare 600 MHz ZIF CPU.


The key to running OS X on old-world Macs is a fast video card and max  
RAM. I use flashed PC VisionTek Xtasy Radeon 9100 64MB with the  
modified Mac Radeon 8500 ROM. There are some better cards, I believe  
the Radeon 9800 PCI might be best, or perhaps the nVidia GeForce  
FX6200 256MB? The 7600 max's out at 1 GB RAM (8x128MB). It also helps  
to have OS X on a RAID 0 striped pair.


A 233 MHz Wallstreet is useless for OS X. A max'd out 7600 is possibly  
useful still, but the cost of making it useful is past the sweet spot  
and makes no sense economically.


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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Beniamino Cenci Goga]

I concur 100%.

My 1996 PowerMac 7600 with a G4 Sonnet 1000 MHz, IDE HD connected to internal 
IDE card and plenty of RAM screams with OS 9, but when I boot off OS X it can 
barely keep the pace of a modest Wallstreet 233MHz.

I beleive it is pointless being able to install whatever OS on whatever Mac 
when it takes days to startup and weeks to pull down menus.

Sent from my iPad

On 27/lug/2012, at 23:40, Illirik Smirnov  wrote:

> It reminds me of what my sophomore History through Film teacher said when I 
> used Saving Private Ryan as the subject of my report on propaganda films: 
> "Sometimes, its fun to be all countercultural and stuff and do things 
> differently, but sometimes everyone does it one way for a good reason". To 
> each his own, but Leopard is just beyond the capabilities of even the fastest 
> G3 to run with any sense of fluency; there's a reason Apple lets you install 
> 10.4 on em but not 10.5. I see the point of running 10.5 on, say, a G4 100MHz 
> below the limit with capable RAM and video card (esp. if you can't live 
> without spaces and stacks, like me), but 10.5 is kinda silly. It'll be like 
> your 6100 (although stick a Sonnet G4 in it and see what happens with OSX; 
> I'd love to see someone try and put 10.5 on it). Will it work? Yes. Well 
> enough to do it for any reason besides "because I can?" No.
> Illirik Smirnov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 4:08 PM, MaGioZal  wrote:
> On 7/23/12 4:18 PM, Illirik Smirnov at  wrote:
> 
> > Yes and yes, but I think that it's probably a better idea to XPostFacto in
> > retail 10.5.8 in if you REALLY want Leopard, and I see no reason why you 
> > want
> > it on a G3. It *will* run poorly. I keep either OS9 or 10.3 on all of my G3s
> > (which is a small sample size, seeing as how all I have is an iMac G3 and a
> > Clamshell to go with it). A 350-400+MHz G3 running OS9 is a capable machine,
> > on 10.3 its slow but usable, on 10.4 it's barely usable; I can't imagine it
> > running well in 10.5.
> 
> 
> But I like some challenges and experiments...;-)
> 
> I remember back in 2001 that many people said it would be practically
> impossible to install and use Mac OS 9.1 on a PowerMac 6100 I had at the
> time. Well, I've installed... And it worked. Slowly, but anyway, I could use
> iTunes, broadband internet and CD burning (and also a 1024x768 video
> resolution trough the AV card).
> 
> I put the brave 6100 (upgraded with a Sonnet G3 processor that many times
> refused to work properly...) into retirement in 2006, between other things
> because there was no way to install Mac OS X on it. ;-P
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> MaGioZal.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Illirik Smirnov]

It reminds me of what my sophomore History through Film teacher said when I
used Saving Private Ryan as the subject of my report on propaganda films:
"Sometimes, its fun to be all countercultural and stuff and do things
differently, but sometimes everyone does it one way for a good reason". To
each his own, but Leopard is just beyond the capabilities of even the
fastest G3 to run with any sense of fluency; there's a reason Apple lets
you install 10.4 on em but not 10.5. I see the point of running 10.5 on,
say, a G4 100MHz below the limit with capable RAM and video card (esp. if
you can't live without spaces and stacks, like me), but 10.5 is kinda
silly. It'll be like your 6100 (although stick a Sonnet G4 in it and see
what happens with OSX; I'd love to see someone try and put 10.5 on it).
Will it work? Yes. Well enough to do it for any reason besides "because I
can?" No.
Illirik Smirnov




On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 4:08 PM, MaGioZal  wrote:

> On 7/23/12 4:18 PM, Illirik Smirnov at  wrote:
>
> > Yes and yes, but I think that it's probably a better idea to XPostFacto
> in
> > retail 10.5.8 in if you REALLY want Leopard, and I see no reason why you
> want
> > it on a G3. It *will* run poorly. I keep either OS9 or 10.3 on all of my
> G3s
> > (which is a small sample size, seeing as how all I have is an iMac G3
> and a
> > Clamshell to go with it). A 350-400+MHz G3 running OS9 is a capable
> machine,
> > on 10.3 its slow but usable, on 10.4 it's barely usable; I can't imagine
> it
> > running well in 10.5.
>
>
> But I like some challenges and experiments...;-)
>
> I remember back in 2001 that many people said it would be practically
> impossible to install and use Mac OS 9.1 on a PowerMac 6100 I had at the
> time. Well, I've installed... And it worked. Slowly, but anyway, I could
> use
> iTunes, broadband internet and CD burning (and also a 1024x768 video
> resolution trough the AV card).
>
> I put the brave 6100 (upgraded with a Sonnet G3 processor that many times
> refused to work properly...) into retirement in 2006, between other things
> because there was no way to install Mac OS X on it. ;-P
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> MaGioZal.
> 
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for
> those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power
> Macs.
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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[MaGioZal]

On 7/23/12 4:18 PM, Illirik Smirnov at  wrote:

> Yes and yes, but I think that it's probably a better idea to XPostFacto in
> retail 10.5.8 in if you REALLY want Leopard, and I see no reason why you want
> it on a G3. It *will* run poorly. I keep either OS9 or 10.3 on all of my G3s
> (which is a small sample size, seeing as how all I have is an iMac G3 and a
> Clamshell to go with it). A 350-400+MHz G3 running OS9 is a capable machine,
> on 10.3 its slow but usable, on 10.4 it's barely usable; I can't imagine it
> running well in 10.5.


But I like some challenges and experiments...;-)

I remember back in 2001 that many people said it would be practically
impossible to install and use Mac OS 9.1 on a PowerMac 6100 I had at the
time. Well, I've installed... And it worked. Slowly, but anyway, I could use
iTunes, broadband internet and CD burning (and also a 1024x768 video
resolution trough the AV card).

I put the brave 6100 (upgraded with a Sonnet G3 processor that many times
refused to work properly...) into retirement in 2006, between other things
because there was no way to install Mac OS X on it. ;-P
 




-- 
MaGioZal.



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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Illirik Smirnov]

Yes and yes, but I think that it's probably a better idea to XPostFacto in
retail 10.5.8 in if you REALLY want Leopard, and I see no reason why you
want it on a G3. It *will* run poorly. I keep either OS9 or 10.3 on all of
my G3s (which is a small sample size, seeing as how all I have is an iMac
G3 and a Clamshell to go with it). A 350-400+MHz G3 running OS9 is a
capable machine, on 10.3 its slow but usable, on 10.4 it's barely usable; I
can't imagine it running well in 10.5.

On the other hand, this 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo Thinkpad running Linux is really
laggy right now (worse than a last-model ibook on 10.3), writing this email
in gmail. Glad I have an MBA in the mail...
-- --
Illirik Smirnov




On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 5:10 AM, MaGioZal  wrote:

> On 7/22/12 6:02 AM, Kris Tilford at  wrote:
>
> > On Jul 22, 2012, at 3:15 AM, MaGioZal wrote:
> >
> >> Can this 10.5 developer version run on G3s?
> >
> > The final developer version that runs on a G3 CPU is 9a303a.
> >
> > The 9a303a version was a tiny update (via Software Update) from the
> > released 9a303, and it's unlike the update servers still offer this
> > update, so for all practical purposes 9a303 was the final G3 CPU
> > version of Leopard.
>
>
> Does this version can run Classic Environment? And would it be able to
> install via XPostFacto?
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> MaGioZal.
> 
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for
> those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power
> Macs.
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> netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
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> http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
>

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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[MaGioZal]

On 7/22/12 6:02 AM, Kris Tilford at  wrote:

> On Jul 22, 2012, at 3:15 AM, MaGioZal wrote:
> 
>> Can this 10.5 developer version run on G3s?
> 
> The final developer version that runs on a G3 CPU is 9a303a.
> 
> The 9a303a version was a tiny update (via Software Update) from the
> released 9a303, and it's unlike the update servers still offer this
> update, so for all practical purposes 9a303 was the final G3 CPU
> version of Leopard.


Does this version can run Classic Environment? And would it be able to
install via XPostFacto?
 




-- 
MaGioZal.



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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[Kris Tilford]

On Jul 22, 2012, at 3:15 AM, MaGioZal wrote:


Can this 10.5 developer version run on G3s?


The final developer version that runs on a G3 CPU is 9a303a.

The 9a303a version was a tiny update (via Software Update) from the  
released 9a303, and it's unlike the update servers still offer this  
update, so for all practical purposes 9a303 was the final G3 CPU  
version of Leopard.


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Re: [G3-5]Re: Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 on unsupported Power Macs, specifically: the Cube

[MaGioZal]

On 7/21/12 10:03 PM, Kris Tilford at  wrote:

> Old unsupported iBooks
> with a rudimentary 4MB Rage 128 card will boot 10.4.11 or the
> developer version of 10.5

Can this 10.5 developer version run on G3s?
 




-- 
MaGioZal.



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