Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-08 Thread KP

You should watch "Be Kind Rewind".  It goes into depth on that...
lol.

On Jan 4, 7:04 pm, "Wallace Adrian D'Alessio" 
wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 8:54 PM, aussieshepsrock
>
>
>
>
>
>  wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >   I'm setting up to archive family photo's for posterity but am
> > getting conflicting info on Media Choices and on going between CDR or
> > DVDR. I'm also not quite sure where to look for scientifically valid
> > evaluations and reccomendations. My google searches and readings seem
> > to be a mix of single source data sets (ie: personal experience!),
> > press releases, 'flame wars', and esoteric descriptions of theories,
> > methodologies, and technologies. I HAD been sold on using very high
> > grade Media made with Gold for it's supposed 'Archival' nature and
> > with CD because they were engineered (supposedly) for extravagent
> > fault tolerance and ability to retrieve 'all' of one's data while
> > DVD's were (supposedly) engineered so error's and missing data have
> > minimal impact on the playing of video. ie: with frames a-b-c-d
> > playing and frame c's data is missing the video stream calmly marches
> > on the frame d. (Simplistic descripions I know, but I think fairly
> > accurate).
>
> > I'm quite lost and am looking for a 'good' reference source!
>
> > I am not looking for '10' year durability, just serious confidence
> > in making it 10-15years before revisiting this data for a 'media' or
> > technology roll over.
>
> > Richard
> > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
>
> Info like that would probably be on wikipedia.
>
> An article  ( I unfortunately cam't recall where. CPU magazine maybe)
> about a year ago stll claimed that for museum and industrial archiving
> tape is still considered the " GOLD " standard. Providing of course
> magnetic fields can be avoided.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-08 Thread Dan

At 6:34 AM -0600 1/8/2009, Charles Lenington wrote:
>I was in Sam's Club (Midwest City, OK) yesterday and they had a Sentry
>safe on the shelf for $152+/-.
>The advertising on box claims 1 hour fire protection from normal fires
>and waterproofing for dvd/cds.
>I personally would be leery of a lock that took batteries. I guess if
>you were the type to change batteries
>  in your smoke detectors, then the safe would be remembered also.

Um... Just my 2c...

If you find yourself looking for lock boxes, environmental controlled 
boxes, safes, etc, for your discs, then something is very wrong.  NO 
box, no matter how much you spend, is going to protect your data from 
everything.  Therefore NONE can be depended upon.

The only SURE protection is to make MULTIPLE copies on DIFFERING 
media (DVD, HD, paper) and store them in DIFFERENT locations.  Your 
best friend's sock drawer.  You cousin's sock drawer - 1000 miles 
away.  etc.

FWIW,
- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-08 Thread aussieshepsrock

As for Safe's with 'electronic' combination locks running off
batteries - I have seen them in action when they switched the Store
Safe out during a Remodeling back when I was running a 1hr lab for
Walgreens. They are about as secure as a White Picket Fence! Due to
some battery issues early on, our managers quickly figured out how
easy it was to pop the cover and release the lock without the keypad
combo so it became routine to open the safe that way at the drop of a
hat! Fat-Finger a combo - Pop Cover and OPEN almost as fast as tapping
the combo pad! I found this quite distrubing because the safe it self
was fairly substandial in size and construction in all other regards
but opening it was as easy as changing the batteries in a TV Remote!
WOW The 'Classic' Dial Lock might be 'easily' defeated with the proper
experience and technology, BUT it's definitely NOT a PLASTIC BOX that
is designed to easiy open and contains it's own Internal Override
SWITCH either In theory and potential implementation an electronic
lock makes it is easy to have quickly changing and changeable
combinations in a retail environment with multiple and changing
employees coming and going. BUT hire REAL ENGINEERS and NOT Toy
Makers!!! :-)

Richard

On Jan 8, 7:34 am, Charles Lenington  wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > On Jan 7, 2009, at 1:32 PM, John Callahan wrote:
>
> snip-
>
> > Damn, you can get larger boxes, but apparently not from them anymore.  
> > A friend had one, I thought it was by them, which was large enough for  
> > a sizable camera/lens collection.
>
> > There are other manufacturers , here's one  >  >, any dive shop or whitewater shop should steer you correctly.
>
> > Another large pile of sources: 
> I made the comment about vacuum sealing the disk's before I got all the
> way down to the vacuum issue.
>
> I was in Sam's Club (Midwest City, OK) yesterday and they had a Sentry
> safe on the shelf for $152+/-.
> The advertising on box claims 1 hour fire protection from normal fires
> and waterproofing for dvd/cds.
> I personally would be leery of a lock that took batteries. I guess if
> you were the type to change batteries
>  in your smoke detectors, then the safe would be remembered also.
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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-08 Thread Charles Lenington

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> On Jan 7, 2009, at 1:32 PM, John Callahan wrote:
>   

snip-
> Damn, you can get larger boxes, but apparently not from them anymore.  
> A friend had one, I thought it was by them, which was large enough for  
> a sizable camera/lens collection.
>
> There are other manufacturers , here's one   >, any dive shop or whitewater shop should steer you correctly.
>
> Another large pile of sources:   >
>   

I made the comment about vacuum sealing the disk's before I got all the 
way down to the vacuum issue.

I was in Sam's Club (Midwest City, OK) yesterday and they had a Sentry 
safe on the shelf for $152+/-.
The advertising on box claims 1 hour fire protection from normal fires 
and waterproofing for dvd/cds.
I personally would be leery of a lock that took batteries. I guess if 
you were the type to change batteries
 in your smoke detectors, then the safe would be remembered also.

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-07 Thread Ralph Green

On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 13:16 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> I could have SWORN I posted a link to Otterbox yesterday, for $30  
 The Otterbox looks nice.  I have used Pelican cases, which look
similar.  Have you seen both and how do they compare?

 And back to tiff files for a moment.  I referred to the variety of TIFF
formats out there.  I did some looking and I would suggest TIFF 6.0
Specification with CCITT Group 4 compression, if you are going to use
TIFF.  CENDI has used that as one of their archival formats for a few
years.  You can read a paper on the issue here:
 http://www.cendi.gov/publications/imgexch2.html

Good luck,
Ralph




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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-07 Thread Bruce Johnson


On Jan 7, 2009, at 1:32 PM, John Callahan wrote:

>
> On Jan 7, 2009, at 3:20 PM, Steve R wrote:
>
>>
>> At 1:16 PM -0700 1/7/09, Bruce Johnson posted:
>>> I could have SWORN I posted a link to Otterbox yesterday, for $30
>>> you'll get a solid box able to handle a big pile of
>>> material>
>>
>> You probably did... I was too busy watching my new 24" iMac
>> defrost ;-)
>>
>> Steve R
>>
>> -
> Did you check the dimensions? Unless they make larger versions it
> would be difficult to store anything other than film or slides in the
> suggested box. FWIW



Damn, you can get larger boxes, but apparently not from them anymore.  
A friend had one, I thought it was by them, which was large enough for  
a sizable camera/lens collection.

There are other manufacturers , here's one , any dive shop or whitewater shop should steer you correctly.

Another large pile of sources: 




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-07 Thread John Callahan


On Jan 7, 2009, at 3:20 PM, Steve R wrote:

>
> At 1:16 PM -0700 1/7/09, Bruce Johnson posted:
>>  I could have SWORN I posted a link to Otterbox yesterday, for $30
>>  you'll get a solid box able to handle a big pile of
>> material
>
> You probably did... I was too busy watching my new 24" iMac  
> defrost ;-)
>
> Steve R
>
> -
Did you check the dimensions? Unless they make larger versions it  
would be difficult to store anything other than film or slides in the  
suggested box. FWIW
> -~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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John Callahan
jcalla...@stny.rr.com
If there are no dogs in Heaven, when I die I want to go where they  
went.¨
--Will Rogers
extreme positive = (ybya2)


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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-07 Thread Steve R

At 1:16 PM -0700 1/7/09, Bruce Johnson posted:
>  I could have SWORN I posted a link to Otterbox yesterday, for $30
>  you'll get a solid box able to handle a big pile of 
>material

Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-07 Thread Bruce Johnson


On Jan 7, 2009, at 12:27 PM, Steve R wrote:

> Or check out the river rafting supply companies for new ammo boxes.
> The tight seals on the new boxes create enough of a 'vacuum' that you
> can hear the air being sucked into the box when it's first opened,
> regardless of the ambient temperatures. From personal experience I
> know the boxes are sealed tight enough to keep air and water out
> while the boxes take their own little side trip through Lava Falls.
>

I could have SWORN I posted a link to Otterbox yesterday, for $30  
you'll get a solid box able to handle a big pile of 
material


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-07 Thread Clark Martin

Steve R wrote:

> Or check out the river rafting supply companies for new ammo boxes. 
> The tight seals on the new boxes create enough of a 'vacuum' that you 
> can hear the air being sucked into the box when it's first opened, 
> regardless of the ambient temperatures. From personal experience I 
> know the boxes are sealed tight enough to keep air and water out 
> while the boxes take their own little side trip through Lava Falls.

You can get ammo cans from lots of places including local surplus stores.

But those ammo cans are often coated with a film of oil that protects 
the ammo.  Make sure you clean it out thoroughly.  And I would drop in 
some desiccant packs.

It doesn't create a vacuum, it just seals in the air.  Air moving in OR 
out when you break the seal is due to differences in air pressure 
between where it was sealed and where the seal was opened.



-- 
Clark Martin
Redwood City, CA, USA
Macintosh / Internet Consulting

"I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway"

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-07 Thread Steve R

At 1:19 PM -0500 1/7/09, Dan posted:
>  I doubt us mere mortals could afford an "airtight container" that is
>  truly airtight - that maintains the *perfect* inert (nitrogen)
>  atmosphere.  And as someone else commented, a vacuum would dry out /
>  destroy the plastics.
>
>  Really, about the best you can do is what the "industry"
>  recommends... Store the discs upright in plastic jewel cases in a
>  cool (not cold) low-humidity low/no light environment (aka, a drawer
>  or cabinet).


Or check out the river rafting supply companies for new ammo boxes. 
The tight seals on the new boxes create enough of a 'vacuum' that you 
can hear the air being sucked into the box when it's first opened, 
regardless of the ambient temperatures. From personal experience I 
know the boxes are sealed tight enough to keep air and water out 
while the boxes take their own little side trip through Lava Falls.

Steve R

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-07 Thread Dan

At 1:25 AM -0600 1/7/2009, Charles Lenington wrote:
>Dan wrote:
>  > Burned media stores data as "pits" in the substraight, under the
>>  outer plastic coating.  Over time, oxygen leeches through the
>>  plastic, and forms rust (oxide), which fill the "pits", creating read
>  > errors.
>
>So cd/dvds should be stored in a vacuum or airtight container

I doubt us mere mortals could afford an "airtight container" that is 
truly airtight - that maintains the *perfect* inert (nitrogen) 
atmosphere.  And as someone else commented, a vacuum would dry out / 
destroy the plastics.

Really, about the best you can do is what the "industry" 
recommends... Store the discs upright in plastic jewel cases in a 
cool (not cold) low-humidity low/no light environment (aka, a drawer 
or cabinet).

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-07 Thread Dan

At 1:33 AM -0600 1/7/2009, Charles Lenington wrote:
>doesn't heat damage cd/dvds?

yes.  Even an afternoon sitting in a car can destroy them.

>does anyone have any info on freezing cd/dvds?

The plastics become brittle then oxygen and moisture leech in easily.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-07 Thread Charles Davis


On Jan 7, 2009, at 2:33 AM, Charles Lenington wrote:

>
> Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 9:29 PM, aussieshepsrock
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> HiYa Wallace,
>>>   Wikipedia was my first stop and while the entries I found were
>>> info
>>>
>
> snip---
>>
>>
>> Actually the tape formats in use 10 to 20 years ago can be found
>> cheaply. Along with used tapes. they still work. However some of the
>> drives may require SCSI.  A stable place in an attic might suffice  
>> for
>> storag

I believe this comment (storage) is in reference to the before  
mentioned 10 - 20 year old TAPE equipment. [Of course High Temp  
storage isn't really desirable for Tapes either.]

Chuck D.

> Uhhh doesn't heat damage cd/dvds? Most attics get hot in the summer.
> Maybe a sturdy container in the bottom of an interior closet or top
> shelf in a basement would be better.
>
> By the way does anyone have any info on freezing cd/dvds?
> Of course common sense in bringing to room temp before using would  
> be wise.
>
> snip rest
>

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-07 Thread Charles Davis


On Jan 7, 2009, at 2:25 AM, Charles Lenington wrote:

>
> Dan wrote:
>> At 10:13 AM -0800 1/5/2009, aussieshepsrock wrote:
>>
>>> I wanted to 'expand' on how I'm handling this family photo archive
>>> project.  :-)
>>>
>> [snip - lots of details]
>>
>>
> snip more details...
>> Burned media stores data as "pits" in the substraight, under the
>> outer plastic coating.  Over time, oxygen leeches through the
>> plastic, and forms rust (oxide), which fill the "pits", creating read
>> errors.
>>
> So cd/dvds should be stored in a vacuum or airtight container say
> zip lock bags squeezing out as much air as possible, then in a plastic
> (food) storage container? Or use one of the vacuum pack devices on the
> market. You could even try using the spray plastic for electrical
> connections to try and seal the container.
>
> Charles
>
You evidently missed the "Vacuum leads to 'outgasing' of the  
plastics" comment.

Chuck D.

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-07 Thread Sam Macomber


On Jan 7, 2009, at 2:33 AM, Charles Lenington wrote:

>
> Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 9:29 PM, aussieshepsrock
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> HiYa Wallace,
>>>  Wikipedia was my first stop and while the entries I found were
>>> info
>>>
>
> snip---
>>
>>
>> Actually the tape formats in use 10 to 20 years ago can be found
>> cheaply. Along with used tapes. they still work. However some of the
>> drives may require SCSI.  A stable place in an attic might suffice  
>> for
>> storag
> Uhhh doesn't heat damage cd/dvds? Most attics get hot in the summer.
> Maybe a sturdy container in the bottom of an interior closet or top
> shelf in a basement would be better.
>
> By the way does anyone have any info on freezing cd/dvds?
> Of course common sense in bringing to room temp before using would  
> be wise.


Basements, around here any how, tend to have humidity issues and most  
attics get very hot in the summer and cold in the winter(both of which  
I've addressed in my house but I think that is not very typical) .  I  
have my disks stored on a book shelf in the house, (one with doors to  
keep my toddler out of it) 

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-06 Thread Charles Lenington

Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 9:29 PM, aussieshepsrock
>  wrote:
>   
>> HiYa Wallace,
>>   Wikipedia was my first stop and while the entries I found were
>> info
>> 

snip---
>
>
> Actually the tape formats in use 10 to 20 years ago can be found
> cheaply. Along with used tapes. they still work. However some of the
> drives may require SCSI.  A stable place in an attic might suffice for
> storag
Uhhh doesn't heat damage cd/dvds? Most attics get hot in the summer.
Maybe a sturdy container in the bottom of an interior closet or top 
shelf in a basement would be better.

By the way does anyone have any info on freezing cd/dvds?
Of course common sense in bringing to room temp before using would be wise.

snip rest

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-06 Thread Charles Lenington

Dan wrote:
> At 10:13 AM -0800 1/5/2009, aussieshepsrock wrote:
>   
>> I wanted to 'expand' on how I'm handling this family photo archive 
>> project.  :-)
>> 
> [snip - lots of details]
>
>   
snip more details...
> Burned media stores data as "pits" in the substraight, under the 
> outer plastic coating.  Over time, oxygen leeches through the 
> plastic, and forms rust (oxide), which fill the "pits", creating read 
> errors.
>   
So cd/dvds should be stored in a vacuum or airtight container say 
zip lock bags squeezing out as much air as possible, then in a plastic 
(food) storage container? Or use one of the vacuum pack devices on the 
market. You could even try using the spray plastic for electrical 
connections to try and seal the container.

Charles

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-06 Thread Bruce Johnson


On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:40 PM, MIKO .. wrote:

>
> On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:13 PM, Stanton Mitrany wrote:
>
>> How about storing our archival digital disks in a hermetically sealed
>> container, flushed with nitrogen or carbon dioxide (easy to obtain,
>> even from a flake of dry ice, dropped into the storage container just
>> before sealing it)? That way, there should be little or no oxyge, and
>> little or no oxidation of the burned pits, and therefore no
>> degradation of the data.
>>
>> Just an idea . . .
>
> LOL.

Hardly. flushing with nitrogen is a common technique for easily  
oxidized chemicals from aerospace components to food.

When my wife and I did a winery tour this summer all the places were  
flushing the tasting bottles with nitrogen in between pours. In fact  
you can buy wine cabinets that have a nitrogen flush built in.

(Neat little appellation...Rattlesnake Hills, near Yakima, Washington.  
We recommend the Bonair  and Paradisios  
del Sol Wineries  good wines,  
friendly people.)

This is actually an eminently sensible idea. A box like this 
 with a couple of silica gel packs and flushed with N2 every year or  
so would make an excellent archival storage container for both digital  
and analog film...

> Perhaps, also, a hyperbaric chamber will help.

Actually a hyperbaric chamber will increase the rate of degradation.  
Hyper == greater baric == pressure. A hypobaric chamber, or storing  
them under reduced pressure will also be a poor idea as that will lead  
to outgassing of the plastics used for the tape or disks.

>  And the storage
> room should be lined with lead in case we get attacked with a
> superstrong electromagnetic pulse (EMP)...  :)

any metal box that is grounded will form a faraday cage that mitigates  
the effects of an EMP.

Pop a CD into a microwave sometime. That's what an EMP will do to one.

All this said, what they want is that their great grandchildren be  
able to see great-grampa's baby pictures...not survive a nuclear war.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Charles Davis


On Jan 5, 2009, at 7:40 PM, MIKO .. wrote:

>
> On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:13 PM, Stanton Mitrany wrote:
>
>> How about storing our archival digital disks in a hermetically sealed
>> container, flushed with nitrogen or carbon dioxide (easy to obtain,
>> even from a flake of dry ice, dropped into the storage container just
>> before sealing it)? That way, there should be little or no oxyge, and
>> little or no oxidation of the burned pits, and therefore no
>> degradation of the data.
>>
>> Just an idea . . .
>
> LOL. Perhaps, also, a hyperbaric chamber will help.  And the storage
> room should be lined with lead in case we get attacked with a
> superstrong electromagnetic pulse (EMP)...  :)
>
>
U!!  EMP   shouldn't have any effect - there isn't  
anything "Magnetic" about DVD/CDs

It's "Optical" remember.

Chuck D.

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Bob Whiton

>Original Poster Here:
>
>  who's
>AUTHORITY and METHODS were exceptionally well regarded. Where is an
>organization like this for storage mediums. One (or more) has to exist
>but where do I find it?
>
You can find some information from NIST here: 

or try the Library of Congress here:

It looks like the longevity testing of CDs and DVDs  is ongoing.

Bob

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Clark Martin

Robert MacLeay wrote:
> Some personal data points to add to the discussion:
> 

> Optical disks:
> Go for the Gold!  There is a hierarchy of long-term stability in the
> optical disk market, with gold, silver, and blue dyes representing
> decreasing stability. Guess which is hardest to find and most
> expensive to buy. You have been warned.
> 
> Diversity tip: When burning multiple copies of disks, burn each copy
> onto a disk from a different manufacturing lot, or preferably a
> different manufacturer. The point is that anyone can manufacture the
> odd bad lot of disks. You don't want to find, ten years from now that
> ALL your copies of the wedding were burned onto disks from a single
> spindle that represented the same bad manufacturing run.
> 

> Magnetic tapes:
> Ignore this talk about stray magnetic fields; it is damned difficult
> to erase a tape on purpose -- I've tried. It's degradation of the
> substrate and binding that you have to worry about. My personal long
> term experience is with analog (audio) tapes. Stuff from the 50s and
> 60s on acetate media is a real problem; polyester media has proven
> better. Video tapes from the 80s and 90s seem to suffer not from
> breakage/stretching that the earlier tapes suffer from, but loss of
> adhesion between the substrate and the magnetic material. I have not
> encountered (yet?) any of these problems with my DAT tape archives,
> although the oldest of them is no more than 15 years old. DAT drives,
> on the other hand, cannot be used in the same sentence with the word
> "longevitiy." Archiving data with tape means keeping a bare minimum of
> two working drives in storage.

My plan is to burn two copies of my photo archives.  Then at about 5 
years intervals copy them to whatever is current.  I stopped worrying as 
much about the life of the media as the life of the equipment.  In order 
to read a given archive you need:

The Archives
A suitable drive.
A computer with the necessary interface.
Software to access the media.
A way to move the data to your current computer.

The question you have to ask is, are you going to have all of those in 
working condition 10, 20 or 30 years down the road.  I have too many 
times (not a lot but too many) pulled a piece of equipment that's been 
sitting on the shelf and found it wasn't working.

Using CD-ROM or DVD-ROM (for now) I figure in 5 years I should have a 
computer that can read those formats.  I'll then copy those files to 
what ever media is available then, provided it is relatively reliable.

I figure this dynamic approach is preferable to a static one that may 
break over the long term.

Additionally I also have all my photo files on both my personal laptop 
and a file server.

-- 
Clark Martin
Redwood City, CA, USA
Macintosh / Internet Consulting

"I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway"

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Robert MacLeay

Some personal data points to add to the discussion:

Wooden box = bad idea!
You want a CHEMICALLY INERT container. Wood has all sorts of acids/
resins/whatever that may leach out and attack/contaminate the dyes
that hold the data on your precious disks. Go for stainless steel
(good luck finding that!) or archival plastics.

Optical disks:
Go for the Gold!  There is a hierarchy of long-term stability in the
optical disk market, with gold, silver, and blue dyes representing
decreasing stability. Guess which is hardest to find and most
expensive to buy. You have been warned.

Diversity tip: When burning multiple copies of disks, burn each copy
onto a disk from a different manufacturing lot, or preferably a
different manufacturer. The point is that anyone can manufacture the
odd bad lot of disks. You don't want to find, ten years from now that
ALL your copies of the wedding were burned onto disks from a single
spindle that represented the same bad manufacturing run.

35 mm slides:
You simply cannot talk about the longevity of slides without
discussing their chemistry. There have been many, many chemistries
used throughout the decades, and they vary widely in their longevity.
As a general rule, only Kodachromes can be expected to last. Anything
else manufactured up to maybe two decades ago is either already lost
or seriously degraded. Newer emulsions should last longer, BUT they
will still eventually fade. It's what they do.

Magnetic tapes:
Ignore this talk about stray magnetic fields; it is damned difficult
to erase a tape on purpose -- I've tried. It's degradation of the
substrate and binding that you have to worry about. My personal long
term experience is with analog (audio) tapes. Stuff from the 50s and
60s on acetate media is a real problem; polyester media has proven
better. Video tapes from the 80s and 90s seem to suffer not from
breakage/stretching that the earlier tapes suffer from, but loss of
adhesion between the substrate and the magnetic material. I have not
encountered (yet?) any of these problems with my DAT tape archives,
although the oldest of them is no more than 15 years old. DAT drives,
on the other hand, cannot be used in the same sentence with the word
"longevitiy." Archiving data with tape means keeping a bare minimum of
two working drives in storage.

On Jan 5, 11:13 am, aussieshepsrock  wrote:
> Hello All, Thanks for your input!
>    I wanted to 'expand' on how I'm handling this family photo archive
> project.  :-)
[snip!]
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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Dan

At 2:28 PM -0800 1/5/2009, aussieshepsrock wrote:
>There are "Ultra-High Grade" Discs made with Gold (to resist
>corrosion), High Grade Plastics to resist scratches and etc, and with
>the use of 'higher' stability Dyes (?) all put together with high
>quality construction processes in their production. The prices are
>very high for these discs compared to the el-cheapo spindles on sale
>every week at the BigBox stores. eg: a hundred discs are 150 bucks
>versus 10 bucks. The 'Tested' theoretical life of these gold disks are
>300yrs versus 100yrs for 'normal' High Grade disks.

The few times we've used such, they did seem to last longer.  But 
they still threw errors eventually.

Data integrity is achieved with multiple backups.  I really doubt 
using expensive media will significantly increase the reliability.

>Where is an organization like this for storage mediums.

There are corporate groups and ITU committees, and NIST...  The 
former deals with PR efforts and the latter two just maintain and 
report upon the functional standards.

>Where is the 'glaring hole' in my data backup plan for these image files?
>
>My 'intended' burning methodologies are to burn very slowly (1x if
>possible) which in theory and personal experience gives very nice
>burns with excellent readability in multiple drives.

Even 2x seems to work well.  4x or faster is where I later run into 
drives that cannot read them.
more than once is going to mean much.  It's x months/years down the 
road that count.


Ok, +/- your paranoia...  How do you tell if the data within a file 
has degraded?  Funny thing about picture type data - stills or video 
- a few errors here and there don't mean much.  And often minor 
errors will go unreported by the drive reading the burned media.

I guess you could generate a md5 for each file...  I think one of my 
clients is doing something like this.  I'll ask 'em for the 
particulars.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread MIKO ..

On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:13 PM, Stanton Mitrany wrote:

> How about storing our archival digital disks in a hermetically sealed
> container, flushed with nitrogen or carbon dioxide (easy to obtain,
> even from a flake of dry ice, dropped into the storage container just
> before sealing it)? That way, there should be little or no oxyge, and
> little or no oxidation of the burned pits, and therefore no
> degradation of the data.
>
> Just an idea . . .

LOL. Perhaps, also, a hyperbaric chamber will help.  And the storage  
room should be lined with lead in case we get attacked with a  
superstrong electromagnetic pulse (EMP)...  :)


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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Charles Davis


On Jan 5, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Stanton Mitrany wrote:

>
> How about storing our archival digital disks in a hermetically sealed
> container, flushed with nitrogen or carbon dioxide (easy to obtain,
> even from a flake of dry ice, dropped into the storage container just
> before sealing it)? That way, there should be little or no oxyge, and
> little or no oxidation of the burned pits, and therefore no
> degradation of the data.
>
> Just an idea . . .
>
> **

Not a bad one either -- except, you are counting on subsequent  
users to be aware of the method used, and to 'reload' the interior of  
the case with 'nitrogen/ carbon dioxide'. Not a big deal to do, just  
that you are depending on 'someone' [unknown interest and/or  
technical ability'] at sometime in the future 'keeping faith' with  
your intent.

Human nature says you have a hopeless wish.

Chuck D.

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Stanton Mitrany

How about storing our archival digital disks in a hermetically sealed  
container, flushed with nitrogen or carbon dioxide (easy to obtain,  
even from a flake of dry ice, dropped into the storage container just  
before sealing it)? That way, there should be little or no oxyge, and  
little or no oxidation of the burned pits, and therefore no  
degradation of the data.

Just an idea . . .

**
On Jan 5, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Dan wrote:


At 10:13 AM -0800 1/5/2009, aussieshepsrock wrote:
> I wanted to 'expand' on how I'm handling this family photo archive
> project.  :-)
[snip - lots of details]

Sounds like a good, well thought out plan to me.

> Query! - As someone who has definitely experienced the loss of data in
> hd failure, optical disc failure/damage, floppy/zip failure, and video
> tape decay. I wonder how something as fragile as 'Tapes' can be
> advocated over high grade opticals for my application.

Magnetic media is actually less fragile than burned media.  heh.
I've got tapes and floppies that were written in the 80s, that still
read just fine.

Tapes/etc store data as magnetic patterns that don't degrade / fade  
much.

Burned media stores data as "pits" in the substraight, under the
outer plastic coating.  Over time, oxygen leeches through the
plastic, and forms rust (oxide), which fill the "pits", creating read
errors.

Tapes/etc can be "cleaned", then read with stronger-field heads.
Burned media - only the outer plastic can be cleaned - the pits are
permanently filled in, so the data is gone.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth




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RE: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Kirk Morrison

Hey one I can answer! It seems to be that Kodachrome 25 has a life of at least 
it seems 70 years under proper conditions of archival storage, Ektachrome seems 
to be about half to 3/4s of that time as some visible fading has occurred. B&W 
prints properly fixed and rinsed are limited by the paper it seems and color 
prints vary with the paper. These are figures that I have read in photo mags





Kirk   





"He who has honor need not fear death."



Eva Marie LeGrand Morrison  5/24/1958-6/26/2008 

My beloved wife, and my best friend, I miss you


> CC: jcalla...@stny.rr.com
> From: jcalla...@stny.rr.com
> Subject: Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's 
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:34:00 -0500
> To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
> 
> 
> >
> > Old  40 and 60 GB tape cartridges and the drive to use them are in a
> > backroom somewhere as forgotten technology waiting to be given away to
> > someone. I am not saying this is best for you but the old stuff is out
> > there, hardly used in many cases and still viable. They were designed
> > for long term archiving from the start. No one much cared about that
> > with CDs as they are so convenient.
> >
> > Keeping disks in controlled environments is important too. especially
> > regarding sunlight.
> >>
> >
> > It seems from this excellent interchange that for long term storage  
> > tape is the longest lasting. Does anyone have suggestions for  
> > converting computer images to tape? What is the life of 35 mm  
> > slides? I have some ten thousand of them that I have been scanning  
> > and burning to discs. Upsetting to learn of the failure of disc  
> > storage.
> Thank you
> 
> > 

_
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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread aussieshepsrock

Original Poster Here:

Query? - There are "Ultra-High Grade" Discs made with Gold (to resist
corrosion), High Grade Plastics to resist scratches and etc, and with
the use of 'higher' stability Dyes (?) all put together with high
quality construction processes in their production. The prices are
very high for these discs compared to the el-cheapo spindles on sale
every week at the BigBox stores. eg: a hundred discs are 150 bucks
versus 10 bucks. The 'Tested' theoretical life of these gold disks are
300yrs versus 100yrs for 'normal' High Grade disks. In my non-digital
photo printing life there was an outfit doing printing paper and
storage methods testing for expected life spans and such who's
AUTHORITY and METHODS were exceptionally well regarded. Where is an
organization like this for storage mediums. One (or more) has to exist
but where do I find it?


Query: Where is the 'glaring hole' in my data backup plan for these
image files?

My 'intended' burning methodologies are to burn very slowly (1x if
possible) which in theory and personal experience gives very nice
burns with excellent readability in multiple drives. Multiple data
integrity tests using multiple drives to verify the burns contents is
intended. These methods combined with numerous multiple copies of the
entire data set seems like it would give a LOT of data security.

With the 'Science' & 'Experience' I have and know about - My intended
use of 'Ultra-Grade' materials and 'Ultra-Careful' methods to create
at least 10 pristine duplicate Disc Sets that will be stored 'as
sets', in a durable container, with each disc in individual jewel
cases, and a Case that promotes vertical storage, should be an Ass
Kicking method to ensure that say 5yrs from now a 'Pristine' copy of
this data set exists to be replicated onto whatever is the best method
to use 5yrs from now. I would also provide to each 'set holder' a User
Copy to use and abuse as they access and view the images.

I personally DON'T see the hole in this plan.

It will be time and labor intensive to implement this plan, but I have
nothing but time on my hands and the 'labor' is labor I can do with my
physical limitations.

I am 100% - hands on - personally aware of the perils Data burned on
Optical Media present. I'm currently dealing with a large cd binder of
cd-r's that a roof leak gunked up in the family office. Some of these
discs are surface ruined from previous rough handling, some are
substrate damaged/corrossion, and some have the reflective layer
flaking off the topside. I also note that -absent mildew/moisture-
that the 5yr old Name Brand disks that were clean read perfectly. I'm
thinking well made disc's that are well stored (some in safety deposit
boxes - I hope) are going to be there for us to use for many many
years.

Richard



On Jan 5, 3:45 pm, Dan  wrote:
> At 1:31 PM -0700 1/5/2009, Doug McNutt wrote:
>
> >As for optical disks the little pits are smaller for higher density
> >DVDs than for CD-ROMs. I should be expected that smaller pits will
> >be more subject to damage than bigger ones. But an important part of
> >the safety is the material in which the pits are formed.
>
> and the quality improvements in the lasers - both the intensity
> (power levels) and frequencies used - which creates all sorts of
> backward compatibility issues.
>
> >Now a question:  Is anyone offering the performance of pressed
> >CD-ROMS for a fee that would be reasonable for a dozen copies?
>
> Not for a dozen.  Maybe for thousands.
>
> - Dan.
> --
> - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth
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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Sam Macomber

>
> At 4:34 PM -0500 1/5/2009, John Callahan wrote:
>> It seems from this excellent interchange that for long term storage
>> tape is the longest lasting.
>
> yes, but... The tape market is undergoing big changes, format,
> interface etc.  I think the built-in obsolescence is very limiting.
> At least in the DVD market, backwards compatibility will let you read
> the discs for years to come.
>
>> What is the life of 35 mm slides?
>
> I've got some taken in the late 1960s that still look sharp/crisp
> with good color.
>
>> I have some ten thousand of them that I have been scanning and
>> burning to discs. Upsetting to learn of the failure of disc storage.
>
> Multiple copies / backups.  Burned DVDs and HDs, kept in different  
> locations.

yes, yes, yes!

that's the plan here at work.  lacie big5 network drive(set as RAID5)  
for live storage of archived images,   plus DVDs stored in a filing  
room with a second copy stored off site (at my house).  current active  
images that not yet archived(no more than one weeks work) are stored  
on each local machine where it was shot (I work in a photo studio) as  
well as on an xserve RAID that is set up with two RAID5 arrays that  
are mirrored(RAID1)   As well for general data(filemaker, websites,  
email, accounting) each server clones it's self to a second drive  
nightly and to a third drive weekly that's also stored at my house.
Lastly office machines are backed up via retrospect nightly, which is  
backed up to a drive I take home monthly.

My own personal photos are on our home computer, plus DVDs and I also  
have them stored on an xserve RAID here at work as well (s don't  
tell ;) )   eventually I'll burn duplicate DVDs to store in a safe  
deposit box, only 17 disks right now so it doesn't take up too much  
space.   Quicken data is backed up on a local drive and to my .mac  
account. iTunes purchases are also burned to DVD, those are just  
stored at home.  if my house burns down I won't be loosing sleep over  
the loss of those, it's just backed up for when the computer's HDD  
fails(and you know it will someday).

My concern is where to store my actual photographs and negatives,
those take up a decent amount of space and are not exactly fire  
resistant.   copying and storing data is a breeze comparatively.

-sam

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Dan

At 4:34 PM -0500 1/5/2009, John Callahan wrote:
>It seems from this excellent interchange that for long term storage 
>tape is the longest lasting.

yes, but... The tape market is undergoing big changes, format, 
interface etc.  I think the built-in obsolescence is very limiting. 
At least in the DVD market, backwards compatibility will let you read 
the discs for years to come.

>What is the life of 35 mm slides?

I've got some taken in the late 1960s that still look sharp/crisp 
with good color.

>I have some ten thousand of them that I have been scanning and 
>burning to discs. Upsetting to learn of the failure of disc storage.

Multiple copies / backups.  Burned DVDs and HDs, kept in different locations.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread MIKO ..

On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:31 AM, Dan wrote:

> Magnetic media is actually less fragile than burned media.  heh.
> I've got tapes and floppies that were written in the 80s, that still
> read just fine.
>
> Tapes/etc store data as magnetic patterns that don't degrade / fade  
> much.

I think tapes are awesome and almost recommended that but I'm worried  
about losing them to future standards, and to cats.  Cats and little  
kids love pulling tape out of things... I dunno- just worried about  
the tape itself- la cinta- so that's why I went with a recommendation  
for solid state drives or wireless flash drives.

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread John Callahan

>
> Old  40 and 60 GB tape cartridges and the drive to use them are in a
> backroom somewhere as forgotten technology waiting to be given away to
> someone. I am not saying this is best for you but the old stuff is out
> there, hardly used in many cases and still viable. They were designed
> for long term archiving from the start. No one much cared about that
> with CDs as they are so convenient.
>
> Keeping disks in controlled environments is important too. especially
> regarding sunlight.
>>
>
> It seems from this excellent interchange that for long term storage  
> tape is the longest lasting. Does anyone have suggestions for  
> converting computer images to tape? What is the life of 35 mm  
> slides? I have some ten thousand of them that I have been scanning  
> and burning to discs. Upsetting to learn of the failure of disc  
> storage.
Thank you

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Dan

At 1:31 PM -0700 1/5/2009, Doug McNutt wrote:
>As for optical disks the little pits are smaller for higher density 
>DVDs than for CD-ROMs. I should be expected that smaller pits will 
>be more subject to damage than bigger ones. But an important part of 
>the safety is the material in which the pits are formed.

and the quality improvements in the lasers - both the intensity 
(power levels) and frequencies used - which creates all sorts of 
backward compatibility issues.

>Now a question:  Is anyone offering the performance of pressed
>CD-ROMS for a fee that would be reasonable for a dozen copies?

Not for a dozen.  Maybe for thousands.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Doug McNutt

'Tis an interesting discussion.

As for mag tapes, higher bit density leads to less than permanent 
storage. Good old 7 track 256 BPI tapes had a good reputation. In 
spite of the better magnetic materials, group-encoded tape records 
with their auto correcting error codes just got worse and worse in 
terms of long term storage.

As for optical disks the little pits are smaller for higher density 
DVDs than for CD-ROMs. I should be expected that smaller pits will be 
more subject to damage than bigger ones. But an important part of the 
safety is the material in which the pits are formed. For one-at-a 
-time burning with a solid state laser the pits are formed in a thin 
optical layer on the "back" side of the transparent blank that is the 
plastic disk.  Commercially "pressed" disks are formed in the plastic 
itself by forming against a master that is made with a recorder that 
is much more pricey than a home unit. Pressed disks are expected to 
have a lot better archival performance.

Now a question:  Is anyone offering the performance of pressed 
CD-ROMS for a fee that would be reasonable for a dozen copies?

One day we may have holographic recording using three dimensions of 
the optical medium. Meanwhile. . .

Hammer chisel and stone remain the best.
-- 

--> From the U S of A, the only socialist country that refuses to admit it. <--

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Dan

At 1:34 PM -0500 1/5/2009, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote:
>
>Old 40 and 60 GB tape cartridges

LOL  Guess I'm dating myself.  When I think of mag tape, I think of 
9track - 800 or 1600 or 6250bpi reels, not carts.

I have some mylar paper tape, from the 70s and 80s.  No data degradation there!

- Dan.
-- 
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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Wallace Adrian D'Alessio

On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:13 PM, aussieshepsrock
 wrote:

> Query! - As someone who has definitely experienced the loss of data in
> hd failure, optical disc failure/damage, floppy/zip failure, and video
> tape decay. I wonder how something as fragile as 'Tapes' can be
> advocated over high grade opticals for my application. A 'corporate'
> structure and funding can create a viability for corporate data
> storage on tapes, but it seems quite expensive and effort intensive to
> keep the tapes viable and quite actively replacing tapes over time.
> This isn't Liberty Mutual Insurance with billions on the line and the
> millions to support the project! It's just us - the ward family - and
> large segments of our family are barely middle class and none are rich
> financially :-). Myself, I'm coping with multiple illnesses and only
> made a few thousand dollars last year! :-)
>
>

__

I understand your dilemma but assure you tapes kept away from EMF
damage in a rather stable environment are still considered to outlast
CD/DVDs which undergo their own kinds of material deterioration.

Old  40 and 60 GB tape cartridges and the drive to use them are in a
backroom somewhere as forgotten technology waiting to be given away to
someone. I am not saying this is best for you but the old stuff is out
there, hardly used in many cases and still viable. They were designed
for long term archiving from the start. No one much cared about that
with CDs as they are so convenient.

Keeping disks in controlled environments is important too. especially
regarding sunlight.
>

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread Dan

At 10:13 AM -0800 1/5/2009, aussieshepsrock wrote:
>I wanted to 'expand' on how I'm handling this family photo archive 
>project.  :-)
[snip - lots of details]

Sounds like a good, well thought out plan to me.

>Query! - As someone who has definitely experienced the loss of data in
>hd failure, optical disc failure/damage, floppy/zip failure, and video
>tape decay. I wonder how something as fragile as 'Tapes' can be
>advocated over high grade opticals for my application.

Magnetic media is actually less fragile than burned media.  heh. 
I've got tapes and floppies that were written in the 80s, that still 
read just fine.

Tapes/etc store data as magnetic patterns that don't degrade / fade much.

Burned media stores data as "pits" in the substraight, under the 
outer plastic coating.  Over time, oxygen leeches through the 
plastic, and forms rust (oxide), which fill the "pits", creating read 
errors.

Tapes/etc can be "cleaned", then read with stronger-field heads. 
Burned media - only the outer plastic can be cleaned - the pits are 
permanently filled in, so the data is gone.

- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread aussieshepsrock

Hello All, Thanks for your input!
   I wanted to 'expand' on how I'm handling this family photo archive
project.  :-)
I AM COMMITTED TO DOING THE SCANNING AND ORGANIZING OF FILES O-N-C-E
DOING IT R-I-G-H-T AND NOT HAVING TO REPEAT THE W-O-R-K FOR THESE
PARTICULAR PHOTOGRAPHS!
My work motto is ' Do it Right, Do it Right the First Time, And Not Do
It Over!"

My Goal is to finish this project with a 'product' that is something a
Photographer (like me) many years in the future will have the 'data'
to do anything he wants to do with any particular image. Equally
important, I want the 'data' to be a genealogical and historical
treasure trove to whoever goes through the image files and associated
'data'.  I'm not doing any 'genealogical' work per se, but am going to
work to 'tag' the images with as much names, dates, and event info as
I can glean for each image.

A) The Original Photographs will NOT Be Discarded! Very little beats
having the originals, but I am mostly left with cheap color prints
from the 70's and 80's at this point and the underlying chemistry of
how these were made defines them as NON-Archival. The HUGE quantities
of black and whites (the Good Stuff) is either buried at the landfill
or burned at the County Incinerator. Sigh.
B) The Scans them selves will be at deep resolutions and a good bit
depth. With nominal adjustments and editing to keep the image files
'true' and without forced color or contrast changes. This minimizes my
workload and keeps from having 'image data' lost through the
'restoration' process.
C) I'll be using TIFF file format because it turnes out that it is an
industry norm for long term digital image storage.
D) The Names and Date info for each image will be stored integral to
the image file itself. This way each image stands on it's own as a
seperate file and if 'say' half the files on a disc become unreadable,
it has no material effect on retrieving all the info important to the
other half of the files.
E) I'll be practicing a defense in depth strategy for storing the
files:
--- Two copies of the data set will be disperesed to a geographically
diverse group of relatives and in good numbers (My Dad is one of 10
kids!).
--- The Dispered Copies will be One set of discs for 'use' and one
will be for 'storage'. The 'Storage' set will hopefully be in a nice
container that wil give a high likelyhood of the discs in their cases
will stay vertical and be kept stress free. I'm shooting for a really
elegant storage container - custom wood box ? - that shouts "I'm
important - Take Good Care Of Me!"  I'm leaning toward jpeg's on the
'for use' discs to maximize the convenience. Nothing firm on that
front has been decided yet.
--- My personal copies of the 'storage set' will be multiple and on
diverse media including Optical and HD.
F) I am 'Planning' to use a Scheduled Media RollOver Process to keep
the data safe for many many years. I'm hoping to be doing the process
every 5 yrs with media I can count on for 10yrs. Maybe it's something
I'll do every year, every other year.

Query! - As someone who has definitely experienced the loss of data in
hd failure, optical disc failure/damage, floppy/zip failure, and video
tape decay. I wonder how something as fragile as 'Tapes' can be
advocated over high grade opticals for my application. A 'corporate'
structure and funding can create a viability for corporate data
storage on tapes, but it seems quite expensive and effort intensive to
keep the tapes viable and quite actively replacing tapes over time.
This isn't Liberty Mutual Insurance with billions on the line and the
millions to support the project! It's just us - the ward family - and
large segments of our family are barely middle class and none are rich
financially :-). Myself, I'm coping with multiple illnesses and only
made a few thousand dollars last year! :-)

To Everybody, I'm doing this scan project because of how important
Photographs and Images are to me. I am in my soul a very caring,
creative, and intensely visual person who has bonded those qualities
to the art and science of photography.  I am doing this to Protect my
Dad's Families visual heritage and to disperse it to family members
spread from Michigan, to Kansas, to Florida, to California.

Richard


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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-05 Thread John Musbach

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 8:54 PM, aussieshepsrock
 wrote:
>
> Hello,
>   I'm setting up to archive family photo's for posterity but am
> getting conflicting info on Media Choices and on going between CDR or
> DVDR. I'm also not quite sure where to look for scientifically valid
> evaluations and reccomendations. My google searches and readings seem
> to be a mix of single source data sets (ie: personal experience!),
> press releases, 'flame wars', and esoteric descriptions of theories,
> methodologies, and technologies. I HAD been sold on using very high
> grade Media made with Gold for it's supposed 'Archival' nature and
> with CD because they were engineered (supposedly) for extravagent
> fault tolerance and ability to retrieve 'all' of one's data while
> DVD's were (supposedly) engineered so error's and missing data have
> minimal impact on the playing of video. ie: with frames a-b-c-d
> playing and frame c's data is missing the video stream calmly marches
> on the frame d. (Simplistic descripions I know, but I think fairly
> accurate).

NEVER use CD-Rs or DVD-Rs for archival, you need something like tape
media for sufficient archival integrity



-- 
Best Regards,

John Musbach

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-04 Thread Dan

At 5:54 PM -0800 1/4/2009, aussieshepsrock wrote:
>
>I'm setting up to archive family photo's for posterity

Wonderful project!  Great fun, to be able to ship DVDs to relatives etc.

But please - retain the original photos.

1) They'll always outlast the digital media.

2) As scanner technologies develop, you might want to rescan things 
at a higher resolution and better color qualities later.

Wrt scanning resolution...  Don't short yourself.  It's nice to have 
some low-res versions to email around, or put on web pages.  But for 
high-quality printing, you'll need 'em to be double the resolution of 
your printer.  What's double?  Good question - the printers of 
tomorrow will be very high res!

>but am getting conflicting info on Media Choices and on going 
>between CDR or DVDR.

The difference in longevity between CD and DVD media is nil.

>I'm also not quite sure where to look for scientifically valid 
>evaluations and reccomendations.

Google on terms like "NIST care for disc".  NIST has published a 
number of guides.

IMO, there are NO truly valid evaluations.  They're all done by 
abusing the media in some way then extrapolating.  And the numbers, 
at least in my experience, just don't even come close to reality.

>I am not looking for '10' year durability, just serious 
>confidence in making it 10-15years before revisiting this data for a 
>'media' or technology roll over.

10 to 15 years is simply too long for burned digital media.  To be 
honest, all the "scientific" data notwithstanding, I think you're 
lucky to get 5.  If you have a professional quality burner, using 
high-quality authoring media... maybe you can do more than 5, maybe. 
And that's before taking into account media format obsolescence. 
\\insert rant about my own and my client's hair-thinning experiences 
of trying to read discs only a few years old\\

To retain data on burned media for up to five years -- I currently 
tell my clients to burn it AT LEAST three times.  The clients that 
are serious about data retention retain printouts, archival photos, 
negatives, burned media, AND hard drives.

>seen multiple references to the inherent dangers magnetic tapes face 
>over the long term.

Mag tapes have NEVER been recommended for archival storage, but for a 
long time they were the only cost effective media available.  In 
fact, even to this day, there are companies that charge the big bucks 
for tape storage.  Sealed, temperature and humidity controlled 
vaults.  Every n days, they spin the tape up and clean it.  And every 
year or so, they move the data to a new tape.  LOL  They're starting 
to offer that service for CDs and DVDs now too.

FWIW,
- Dan.
-- 
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-04 Thread Wallace Adrian D'Alessio

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 9:29 PM, aussieshepsrock
 wrote:
>
> HiYa Wallace,
>   Wikipedia was my first stop and while the entries I found were
> informative, they were for the most part more frightening than
> definitive about my choices. I've also seen multiple references to the
> inherent dangers magnetic tapes face over the long term. I also do not
> have access to 'corporate standard' equipment or budgets that would
> allow for the avoidance of technological obsolescence let alone
> Magnetic field avoidance. I also see that CD sized optically read
> media seems to have a nice leg up on tape drives when it comes to the
> breadth and depth of their adoption and implementation. The DVD
> standards mandated CD Reading and Blue Ray mandated DVD and CD
> reading. I think the breadth of CD and DVD libraries in use around the
> world can 'help' keep them alive for quite some time as long as
> optical discs of that size remain in use as the technological advances
> come and go.
>
> I am planning a 'defense in depth' strategy by deploying well made
> copies of the data to be held by numerous aunts, uncles, cousins, and
> siblings across the united states. A 'horrific' person married into
> the family and actively destroyed the vast majority of my Grandmothers
> extensive photo and memorabilia collections. I want no person and
> disaster to be able to do that to this family again.
>


Actually the tape formats in use 10 to 20 years ago can be found
cheaply. Along with used tapes. they still work. However some of the
drives may require SCSI.  A stable place in an attic might suffice for
storage barring fire.

I'm don't know what the material life of CDs / DVDs is projected as
these days but have read of re-recording strategies.

I wouldn't count on optical drives being any more long lived
technologically than other formats that have passed into antiquity in
my lifetime.But someone somehow will be able to transcribe them.

I know the felling regarding memories in photos. A vindictive Ex is
all it takes to destroy a lot of good memories for a family.

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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-04 Thread aussieshepsrock

HiYa Wallace,
   Wikipedia was my first stop and while the entries I found were
informative, they were for the most part more frightening than
definitive about my choices. I've also seen multiple references to the
inherent dangers magnetic tapes face over the long term. I also do not
have access to 'corporate standard' equipment or budgets that would
allow for the avoidance of technological obsolescence let alone
Magnetic field avoidance. I also see that CD sized optically read
media seems to have a nice leg up on tape drives when it comes to the
breadth and depth of their adoption and implementation. The DVD
standards mandated CD Reading and Blue Ray mandated DVD and CD
reading. I think the breadth of CD and DVD libraries in use around the
world can 'help' keep them alive for quite some time as long as
optical discs of that size remain in use as the technological advances
come and go.

I am planning a 'defense in depth' strategy by deploying well made
copies of the data to be held by numerous aunts, uncles, cousins, and
siblings across the united states. A 'horrific' person married into
the family and actively destroyed the vast majority of my Grandmothers
extensive photo and memorabilia collections. I want no person and
disaster to be able to do that to this family again.

Richard

On Jan 4, 9:04 pm, "Wallace Adrian D'Alessio" 
wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 8:54 PM, aussieshepsrock
>
>
>
>  wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >   I'm setting up to archive family photo's for posterity but am
> > getting conflicting info on Media Choices and on going between CDR or
> > DVDR. I'm also not quite sure where to look for scientifically valid
> > evaluations and reccomendations. My google searches and readings seem
> > to be a mix of single source data sets (ie: personal experience!),
> > press releases, 'flame wars', and esoteric descriptions of theories,
> > methodologies, and technologies. I HAD been sold on using very high
> > grade Media made with Gold for it's supposed 'Archival' nature and
> > with CD because they were engineered (supposedly) for extravagent
> > fault tolerance and ability to retrieve 'all' of one's data while
> > DVD's were (supposedly) engineered so error's and missing data have
> > minimal impact on the playing of video. ie: with frames a-b-c-d
> > playing and frame c's data is missing the video stream calmly marches
> > on the frame d. (Simplistic descripions I know, but I think fairly
> > accurate).
>
> > I'm quite lost and am looking for a 'good' reference source!
>
> > I am not looking for '10' year durability, just serious confidence
> > in making it 10-15years before revisiting this data for a 'media' or
> > technology roll over.
>
> > Richard
> > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
>
> Info like that would probably be on wikipedia.
>
> An article  ( I unfortunately cam't recall where. CPU magazine maybe)
> about a year ago stll claimed that for museum and industrial archiving
> tape is still considered the " GOLD " standard. Providing of course
> magnetic fields can be avoided.
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Re: Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-04 Thread Wallace Adrian D'Alessio

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 8:54 PM, aussieshepsrock
 wrote:
>
> Hello,
>   I'm setting up to archive family photo's for posterity but am
> getting conflicting info on Media Choices and on going between CDR or
> DVDR. I'm also not quite sure where to look for scientifically valid
> evaluations and reccomendations. My google searches and readings seem
> to be a mix of single source data sets (ie: personal experience!),
> press releases, 'flame wars', and esoteric descriptions of theories,
> methodologies, and technologies. I HAD been sold on using very high
> grade Media made with Gold for it's supposed 'Archival' nature and
> with CD because they were engineered (supposedly) for extravagent
> fault tolerance and ability to retrieve 'all' of one's data while
> DVD's were (supposedly) engineered so error's and missing data have
> minimal impact on the playing of video. ie: with frames a-b-c-d
> playing and frame c's data is missing the video stream calmly marches
> on the frame d. (Simplistic descripions I know, but I think fairly
> accurate).
>
> I'm quite lost and am looking for a 'good' reference source!
>
> I am not looking for '10' year durability, just serious confidence
> in making it 10-15years before revisiting this data for a 'media' or
> technology roll over.
>
> Richard
> --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
>

Info like that would probably be on wikipedia.

An article  ( I unfortunately cam't recall where. CPU magazine maybe)
about a year ago stll claimed that for museum and industrial archiving
tape is still considered the " GOLD " standard. Providing of course
magnetic fields can be avoided.

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Where do I learn about long lasting cdr's or dvdr's ????

2009-01-04 Thread aussieshepsrock

Hello,
   I'm setting up to archive family photo's for posterity but am
getting conflicting info on Media Choices and on going between CDR or
DVDR. I'm also not quite sure where to look for scientifically valid
evaluations and reccomendations. My google searches and readings seem
to be a mix of single source data sets (ie: personal experience!),
press releases, 'flame wars', and esoteric descriptions of theories,
methodologies, and technologies. I HAD been sold on using very high
grade Media made with Gold for it's supposed 'Archival' nature and
with CD because they were engineered (supposedly) for extravagent
fault tolerance and ability to retrieve 'all' of one's data while
DVD's were (supposedly) engineered so error's and missing data have
minimal impact on the playing of video. ie: with frames a-b-c-d
playing and frame c's data is missing the video stream calmly marches
on the frame d. (Simplistic descripions I know, but I think fairly
accurate).

I'm quite lost and am looking for a 'good' reference source!

I am not looking for '10' year durability, just serious confidence
in making it 10-15years before revisiting this data for a 'media' or
technology roll over.

Richard
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