Re: iCloud vs. G4
I agree with Douglas. PPC outperformed x86 architecture in the 'real world' for well after the introduction of dual-core Intel based macs (which are also now no longer going to be supported by Apple ;) However, Windows 7 will run on them just fine, stopping them from becoming doorstops. The original poster assumed that my post indicated that I had not used Intel macs, however, nothing could be further than the truth. Apple didn't go to Intel because users wanted it after spending years and millions of dollars on smashing the Megahertz myththey went to Intel because IBM couldn't manufacture the new CPU's quickly enough to fill orders for high-end PPC macs. Ironic, but true. When the decision was made to go with Intel, part of the contract with Intel was that Apple would, in return for guaranteed numbers of CPU's, stop supporting rival manufacturers silicone - and that was the end of PPC. It was a legal obligation. Intel are cutthroat, they didn't get in the market position they're in without viciously defending their territory from the likes of AMD, Cyrix, IBM, etc. - Original Message - From: Douglas Mencken dougmenc...@gmail.com To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 4:25:39 PM Subject: Re: iCloud vs. G4 At that time, Apple had iPod, had iPhone. Now *they* are Apple's market. Macs are only decimals of a single percent in their profit. So it was okay to go everybody is using side, against think different. Because *Apple doesn't care for Macs anymore*. Just a tradition. I bet they would abandon Mac Pros and Xserve in upcoming years. (some wikipedia quotation) If you are with macs for, say, at least 7 years, as you said, then you should know. Pentium IV 4GHz vs 2xdual-core (quad') G5 970MP 2.5GHz. Megahertz myth. And then even x86 Window® systems were started to ship with single/dual-core 1.6GHz x86 CPUs. I see a gargantuan amount of engineering that went into keeping those space heaters for all x86 systems since 2006-7. Don't you see them? No more single cooler on power supply. Now it is a lot of coolers everywhere. NO THEY WOULDN'T. Have you actually USED any Intel-based macs, head to head against a PPC system? Even the first MacBooks crushed the previous top-end Powerbooks, let along the iBooks they allegedly replaced. I'm using x86 system (i7 quad core) on work. And it is slower (everywhere: browsing web, watching movies) than my G5 dual 2.3GHz made back in late 2005. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
Bruce, as an IT professional, I would have thought that you'd be aware of 'real world' testing vs. benchmarks. I could write a benchmarking app that runs better on Intel, hence would give better results, than PPC, or vice versa. Benchmarking on clock makes no sense with a reduced instruction set... - Original Message - From: Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:14:06 PM Subject: Re: iCloud vs. G4 I'm using x86 system (i7 quad core) on work. And it is slower (everywhere: browsing web, watching movies) than my G5 dual 2.3GHz made back in late 2005. ORLY? Actual benchmarking begs to differ: http://browse.geekbench.ca/mac-benchmark/ -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
On Apr 17, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote: Yes, on the one hand those old G4 Powerbooks were (and still are, I have a 15 one) wonderful, useful machines. If they meet your needs, they're great tools. On the other hand, they were THE primary reason that Apple was forced to move to Intel; they needed a powerful, energy-efficient laptop platform for their software, they were getting killed in that market segment, and neither Motorola or IBM were able to deliver. Yes, Motorola/Freescale IBM did take way too long to come up with a processor that could compete with the new Intel CPU's and I don't blame Apple for making the switch to Intel processors. The Intel CPU's are head and shoulders above anything else that is practical to use in any personal computer desktop, or laptop. But I am one of the crazy few that still believe in PPC and have gone so far as to purchase the first and only personal computer that contains a PA Semi PA6T 1682M dual core 1.8GHz PPC CPU in it. Yep, that is the company that Apple purchased and then almost immediately shut down, but before they did, PA Semi produced an unknown number of these PA6T 1682M processors which were used in some military applications and which a company called A-Eon and Varisys purchased to put into a brand new motherboard design, which was created solely for the purpose of running AmigaOS4.1.5. The computer is called an AmigaOne X1000. The rumors that Amiga was dead are greatly exaggerated. This PA6T could have been a very nice step up from the last 1.67GHz G4's, for the next PowerBook, had Apple not made the switch to Intel chips, but it was too little and too late, as the Intel Core2Duo at the same clock speed was still (as far as I know) a more powerful CPU than the PA6T, which is slower still than the newer i3, i5, i7 CPU's, so Apple definitely made the right choice. That does not mean that PPC computers are useless and it is a shame that Apple did not support their PPC computers at least another 2 to 5 years or so, as people should not have been forced to upgrade so quickly, when there computers are working perfectly for most tasks still. I use my G4 PowerBook as my main computer for all email and Internet browsing, as well as many other programs and games. I probably use it 4 to 6 hours a day, every day (mostly because I am partially disabled and confined to my bed). I know that Apple could have supported PPC models for a lot longer than they did and I strongly dislike the way they dropped support as soon as they did. In my mind it was disrespectful to their customers and I understand why many Apple customers might be very upset with Apple for their decisions. I am one of them, and it has made me consider switching to Linux. David W. Morris aka AmigaDave Dual booting MacOSX10.5.8 MorphOS2.7 on my dual 1.42GHz G4 PowerMac MacOSX10.5.8 MorphOS3.0 beta on 15 17 1.67GHz G4 PowerBook's, plus MacOSX10.5.8 Ubuntu10.10 PPC on my dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
Bruce, as an IT professional, I would have thought that you'd be aware of 'real world' testing vs. benchmarks. I could write a benchmarking app that runs better on Intel, hence would give better results, than PPC, or vice versa. Benchmarking on clock makes no sense with a reduced instruction set. Only Nixon could go to China, so here goes. The age of the technical supremacy of the PowerPC as a general purpose computing chip is gone. PowerPC retains important design wins in the embedded space, particularly cars, high-end service CPUs and game consoles, but the Amiga is pretty much the last stand of the PPC as a desktop platform (and yes, I have my pennies saved for an X1000 also). Intel has put big dollars into making x86 and x86_64 performant, and it shows. Although the same old disgusting ISA is slathered on top, internally the Core microarchitecture is nothing like, say, horrid designs such as NetBurst. General-purpose CPUs are their core business in a way that no PowerPC manufacturers' ever was. As was previously mentioned, Motorola was mostly interested in the embedded space, and IBM in big iron. These have very different design requirements than GP CPUs. In terms of comparison, the G5 remained competitive with, though ultimately marginally inferior to, the first generation Core machines (the G4 never was, although with large L2 cache it could get closer). When Core 2 Duo came out, all but the quad were outclassed, and now the G5 is probably half or less as performant as the current generation of i5/i7. But we expect that, because the G5 is a 2004 design. It was built to compete against Pentium 4. As far as PowerPC nowadays, the only high-performance PPCs are IBM's big iron POWER series. I personally own a POWER6, and as a workstation, it is loud and noisy and hot, just like the G5 was (because the G5 was just a POWER4 with AltiVec bolted on), but it is a great server as a dual-core 4.2GHz system and it is very very fast. It also cost me close to $10,000. That's no recipe for a home computer, and even the cooler-running POWER7 is still no easily tamed deskside tower. Consoles are built for good power for the money. Even the Wii U (POWER7 derivative, it is believed) is still in terms of CPU grunt likely to be slower than a Core CPU, but it can be made cheaply, IBM offers custom tweaks, AltiVec is a very good SIMD technology, and it's good enough. But it doesn't compare with contemporary designs either. This is all said as someone who loves PowerPC ISA. I despise x86 ISA, though mostly because I think it's ugly compared to load/store designs or my favourite CPU, the MOS 6502. But Intel, love them or hate them, has invested billions of dollars in getting the hippo to dance, and it shows. It's not something IBM, as the current standard bearer of high performance POWER, is interested in anymore. Mind you, I do think that most Power Mac software is criminally badly optimized, something I'm working on specifically for TenFourFox. G5 optimization in particular is a lost art, and important because later POWER designs share some of the same quirks. But this is still playing at the margins, and while the PA6T is a great chip, it is no match for the G5 and a 2GHz G4 will beat it. One note about Geekbench: this is actually a pretty good benchmark, not merely a clock-speed comparison. You *could* argue underoptimization for the PPC, and gcc is not a great PowerPC compiler, but Apple's gcc changes have at least made it competitive. IBM xlC is the PPC master, but it is non-standard, has a spotty track record on OS X, and a license costs about $1300. So I could see a criticism made for marginal differences, but not for the large scale differentials that you see now. Do I still think Power Macs are useful? Damn straight, which is why I'm typing this message on an iBook G4, and I use an iMac G4 and a quad G5 at home. But I don't suffer illusions about their performance. They just happen to do what I want, and they are still fast enough. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- It's a big old goofy world. -- John Prine -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
At 1:02 PM + 4/18/2012, antique...@comcast.net wrote: When the decision was made to go with Intel, part of the contract with Intel was that Apple would, in return for guaranteed numbers of CPU's, stop supporting rival manufacturers silicone I think this thread has jumped the shark. It's gone from simple email problem, which was quickly resolved, to a rehash of the overly rehashed ancient ppc vs x86 argument, and now to silicone. I have no idea what polymerized siloxanes has to do with a processor architecture argument. Silicones are more apropos to breast implants than SOI chips... Can we end this thread now, please. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
Unbelievable! I have just about had it with Apple's policies of trying to make their hardware obsolete while it is still perfectly capable. I too use a pair of 1.67GHz G4 PowerBook's (15-inch 17-inch models) daily for all of my email and Web browsing needs. Luckily for me I stopped using my .me/.mac account and which I almost considered as a replacement to my 20+ year old Earthlink.net email account my relatively new gmail account. I am very glad I did not choose to give up any of my other email accounts (specially the one I have had for about 20+ years). I am really sorry to hear about your problems, and I can't think of any way to resolve it, unless you could perhaps buy the cheapest new or used Intel MacMini that could download your email and if there would be some way that it could sync to your G4 PowerBook, even if you had to use some kind of third party file syncing utility program, if Apple's Sync can't do what you want. This would be a big inconvenience, specially when traveling, but MacMini's are easy to take with you and I believe that all of the Intel MacMini's came with wireless networking built-in. Good luck, someone here will probably have a better answer for you than mine. For my part, I think you are definitely sending your message to the right group, as this group is for all G3 through G5 computer questions or comments. David W. Morris aka AmigaDave Dual booting MacOSX10.5.8 MorphOS2.7 on my dual 1.42GHz G4 PowerMac, MacOSX10.5.8 MorphOS3.0 beta on 15 17 1.67GHz G4 PowerBook's, plus MacOSX10.5.8 Ubuntu10.10 PPC on my dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac. On Apr 16, 2012, at 8:20 PM, oneoftheharts wrote: I don't post very often and when I do I seem to be told that I posted to the wrong group. Maybe if this is the case again, someone can kindly direct me to the right list. FYI, I've been around since the Quadlist helped me with my Centris 610... For those who don't have a .mac account and wonder what is the problem, after June 30, these accounts will only work on newer iPhones/ iPads/iPods, Macs that run Lion, and PCs that run Windows Vista or Windows 7. I have a G4 Powerbook. I had to upgrade my phone so I got an iPhone, and it now syncs to the iCloud. But I want to continue to access my email from my computer (imagine that). Has anyone with a G4 been able to sync their .mac email account since this change began to occur? Supposedly we have to convert by June 30, but as of April 9 I have gotten this prompt: The .Mac server “mail.mac.com” rejected the password for user (my username)... and I can't log in. I can't log in from Mail and I can't log in from the .me/.mac links (web-based) either. They are forcing me to either buy a newer computer or give up my .mac email address that I've had since the first day they were available. Incidentally, my login info still works from my iPhone, such as when I DL iTunes, apps, etc. I've chatted with technical support, and they say there's no way... Thanks so much for your help, Claire Hart -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
At 9:36 AM -0700 4/17/2012, David W. Morris wrote: Unbelievable! I have just about had it with Apple's policies of trying to make their hardware obsolete while it is still perfectly capable. Yes, it's a grand catastrophe that Apple spent a bazillion quatloos to build a whole new facility to support their new iCloud service. The OP's difficulty was with Apple's mail service. As Kris pointed out - the mail service works just fine, the OP simply need to update their settings. What's the big deal? - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
All because of a setting they dont trust people to make themselves. I love Apple products but cant justify buying into planned obsolescence. Since they killed ppc and put profit above quality, I've done my best to get back at the man.still using my g4, and my iPhone is hacked so I don't have to be on a ridiculous plan Apple gets a kickback for Sent from my iPhone On Apr 17, 2012, at 12:36 PM, David W. Morris bbh...@gmail.com wrote: Unbelievable! I have just about had it with Apple's policies of trying to make their hardware obsolete while it is still perfectly capable. I too use a pair of 1.67GHz G4 PowerBook's (15-inch 17-inch models) daily for all of my email and Web browsing needs. Luckily for me I stopped using my .me/.mac account and which I almost considered as a replacement to my 20+ year old Earthlink.net email account my relatively new gmail account. I am very glad I did not choose to give up any of my other email accounts (specially the one I have had for about 20+ years). I am really sorry to hear about your problems, and I can't think of any way to resolve it, unless you could perhaps buy the cheapest new or used Intel MacMini that could download your email and if there would be some way that it could sync to your G4 PowerBook, even if you had to use some kind of third party file syncing utility program, if Apple's Sync can't do what you want. This would be a big inconvenience, specially when traveling, but MacMini's are easy to take with you and I believe that all of the Intel MacMini's came with wireless networking built-in. Good luck, someone here will probably have a better answer for you than mine. For my part, I think you are definitely sending your message to the right group, as this group is for all G3 through G5 computer questions or comments. David W. Morris aka AmigaDave Dual booting MacOSX10.5.8 MorphOS2.7 on my dual 1.42GHz G4 PowerMac, MacOSX10.5.8 MorphOS3.0 beta on 15 17 1.67GHz G4 PowerBook's, plus MacOSX10.5.8 Ubuntu10.10 PPC on my dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac. On Apr 16, 2012, at 8:20 PM, oneoftheharts wrote: I don't post very often and when I do I seem to be told that I posted to the wrong group. Maybe if this is the case again, someone can kindly direct me to the right list. FYI, I've been around since the Quadlist helped me with my Centris 610... For those who don't have a .mac account and wonder what is the problem, after June 30, these accounts will only work on newer iPhones/ iPads/iPods, Macs that run Lion, and PCs that run Windows Vista or Windows 7. I have a G4 Powerbook. I had to upgrade my phone so I got an iPhone, and it now syncs to the iCloud. But I want to continue to access my email from my computer (imagine that). Has anyone with a G4 been able to sync their .mac email account since this change began to occur? Supposedly we have to convert by June 30, but as of April 9 I have gotten this prompt: The .Mac server “mail.mac.com” rejected the password for user (my username)... and I can't log in. I can't log in from Mail and I can't log in from the .me/.mac links (web-based) either. They are forcing me to either buy a newer computer or give up my .mac email address that I've had since the first day they were available. Incidentally, my login info still works from my iPhone, such as when I DL iTunes, apps, etc. I've chatted with technical support, and they say there's no way... Thanks so much for your help, Claire Hart -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
On Apr 17, 2012, at 10:04 AM, Dan wrote: What's the big deal? People want all the cool new toys on their nearly 7-year old Powerbooks with a processor that dates from four or five generations ago, which was obsoleted on the spot less than 6 months later by the advent of the 15 MacBook pro, which outperformed it in every aspect. Even if you could magically get the source code for OS X 10.7 and compile it for PPC and run it on the G4 powerbook, it would be akin to trying to run Windows 95 on a 386/25 with 4 megs of RAM. (officially Win95's low-end specs...one time we had one laying about and installed it for sg. took 30-45 minutes to boot up, and we thought the hard drive would simply explode from overwork. We never did try to do anything more functional than starting Notepad and typing...slowly, oh so very slooowly Hello World!) It would be like when I ran Pagemaker 4 or 5 on my Mac Plus (this was back in 92/93-ish), and I called it 'Tai Chi computing' Move slowly, deliberately and allow plenty of time for the computer to catch up. Yes, on the one hand those old G4 Powerbooks were (and still are, I have a 15 one) wonderful, useful machines. If they meet your needs, they're great tools. On the other hand, they were THE primary reason that Apple was forced to move to Intel; they needed a powerful, energy-efficient laptop platform for their software, they were getting killed in that market segment, and neither Motorola or IBM were able to deliver. Finally, on the gripping hand, Apple IS in the business of selling hardware; OS X and the software universe around it is WHY people buy Macs. My 15 G4 is a double hand-me-down system. And I haven't hardly used it in several months, since I got my 17 MacBook Pro, and when I do use it, boy howdy does it show it's age. Most of the time you can get a lot of years out of your purchase, but sometimes change bites you in the ass. Welcome to the ongoing wave of change, hang on to your surfboard. There's a reason that G4 and G5 systems are selling for pennies on the dollar. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
On Apr 17, 2012, at 10:46 AM, Darryl wrote: Since they killed ppc and put profit above quality, Oh puleeeze. Look at the service history of the G5 iMac versus even the first-gen Intel one, it's no contest. I've seen almost no repair issues at all with any of the modern intel Macs we've got in our hands, even the first Macbooks with the alleged handrest problems (which I never saw in person). I've seen only two that wasn't a hard drive failure, one keyboard failure and the dead display on my 17 MacBook pro (which was purchased with the dead display, and repaired by me) As for the dumb PPC is better argument, that, too doesn't hold up. As I noted, nether Motorola or IBM were able or interested in producing high-performance, low power CPU's for the laptop market, or anything for Apple, actually. Intel on the other hand was VERY happy to work with Apple, the ONLY computer company that Intel doesn't have to subsidize (That Intel Inside sticker means that Intel is paying the manufacturer a bit of their marketing costs for every computer going out with that sticker.). The folks at Apple were also smart enough to look past the hype about AMD, and see that what Intel was showing them would kick AMD's butt all over the place; which they have. Finally, if you look at the actual constant dollars, Macs have NEVER, EVER been cheaper. At the time the PPC came out, RISC systems were clearly superior to CISC systems like Intel's CPU's. Had either Motorola or IBM been at all interested in maintaining a presence in the general purpose computer CPU market, the story would likely be considerably different. But they weren't. Motorola's primary market for the PPC wasn't remotely computers like the Mac, but embedded systems: cars, refrigerators, washing machines, industrial control systems. IBM's focus was on making high power CPU's for their CPUS. INtel rapidly adopted RISC-like features into their designs, and continued to improve them, focusing particularly on making high-perfomance CPUS for the laptop market. Apple teamed up with a company whose main line of business was aligned with Apple's for a change. I am confident that Apple would be nowhere near where they are today, if they existed AT ALL, without their switch to Intel, and the odds on the 'no longer existing at all' were by far the better ones. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
Since they killed ppc and put profit above quality, Oh puleeeze. Look at the service history of the G5 iMac versus even the first-gen Intel one, it's no contest. Hang on. I do have first-generation 17 iMac G5. It works well. Worked for 7 years, in 24/7 mode. As for the dumb PPC is better argument, that, too doesn't hold up. PPC is better is obviously incorrect. Better than that? The correct statement is PPC is different. As I noted, nether Motorola or IBM were able or interested in producing high-performance, low power CPU's for the laptop market, or anything for Apple, actually. Apple neither. They just wanted Microsoft® Windows® support on desktop and notebook market, as many and many users requested it. Native Windows® support. I also have a cool^Wgreat link for you: http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/10/5486.ars I am confident that Apple would be nowhere near where they are today, if they existed AT ALL, without their switch to Intel, and the odds on the 'no longer existing at all' were by far the better ones. Without switching to Intel at least in servers (Xserve) and hi-end desktop systems (Mac Pro), Apple would have been acting much more nicely to the Mac community, to the PowerPC community, to the Think different community. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
On Apr 17, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Douglas Mencken wrote: Since they killed ppc and put profit above quality, Oh puleeeze. Look at the service history of the G5 iMac versus even the first-gen Intel one, it's no contest. Hang on. I do have first-generation 17 iMac G5. It works well. Worked for 7 years, in 24/7 mode. As for the dumb PPC is better argument, that, too doesn't hold up. PPC is better is obviously incorrect. Better than that? The correct statement is PPC is different. As I noted, nether Motorola or IBM were able or interested in producing high-performance, low power CPU's for the laptop market, or anything for Apple, actually. Apple neither. They just wanted Microsoft® Windows® support on desktop and notebook market, as many and many users requested it. Native Windows® support. I was around at the time, performance was very MUCH on Apple's mind because nearly every review of any new Powerbook was 'well, still no G5 powerbook and cheaper Wintel laptops are much faster, longer battery life, etc. Apple, was losing their place rapidly/ I also have a cool^Wgreat link for you: http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/10/5486.ars Here I have some cool facts for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_970#PowerPC_970MP PowerPC 970MP IBM announced the PowerPC 970MP, code-named Antares, on 7 July 2005 at the Power Everywhere forum in Tokyo. The 970MP is a dual-core derivative of the 970FX with clock speeds between 1.2 and 2.5 GHz, and a maximum power usage of 75 W at 1.8 GHz and 100 W at 2.0 GHz. Each core has 1 MB of L2 cache, twice that of the 970FX. Like the 970FX, this chip was produced at the 90 nm process. When one of the cores is idle, it will enter a doze state and shut down.[5] The 970MP also includes partitioning and virtualization features.[6][7] The PowerPC 970MP replaced the PowerPC 970FX in Apple's high-end Power Mac G5 computers, while the iMac G5 and the legacy PCI-X Power Mac G5 continued to use the PowerPC 970FX processor. The PowerPC 970MP is used in IBM's JS21 blade modules and IBM Intellistation POWER 185 workstation. Due to high power requirements IBM has chosen to discontinue parts running faster than 2.0 GHz. [edit]PowerPC 970GX The PowerPC 970GX is a cancelled single-core version of PowerPC 970MP. It featured a 1 MB L2 cache and would have been available in frequencies of 1.2 to 3 GHz. Power dissipation would have been 16 W at 1.6 GHz, and 85 W at 3 GHz. It was to be fabricated in the same 90 nm fabrication process as the 970MP.[8] See Jobs, S Real artists ship Compare this to : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonah_(microprocessor) The original Core Duo used 31 watts max for a dual core processor at 2ghz. The IBM 970gx would have had to have been a dual CPU design to match the Core Duo, which would have probably put it at 45-50 watts. So no, the Ars article is not correct, at least in the implication that IBM in fact intended to produce truly low-power laptop-capable CPUS in the G5 line. These were indeed LOWER power than previous designs but for FSM sake those WERE the CPUS put into the last gen G5's. Have you ever been into a G5? Seen the gargantuan amount of engineering that went into keeping those space heaters cool? I am confident that Apple would be nowhere near where they are today, if they existed AT ALL, without their switch to Intel, and the odds on the 'no longer existing at all' were by far the better ones. Without switching to Intel at least in servers (Xserve) and hi-end desktop systems (Mac Pro), Apple would have been acting much more nicely to the Mac community, to the PowerPC community, to the Think different community. NO THEY WOULDN'T. Have you actually USED any Intel-based macs, head to head against a PPC system? Even the first MacBooks crushed the previous top-end Powerbooks, let along the iBooks they allegedly replaced. I was there, I've used both, extensively, even running that bodged version of 10.4 the Macbooks were head and shoulders above the performance of the Powerbooks, and with the advent of 10.5 and later 10.6 they were even better. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote: On Apr 17, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Douglas Mencken wrote: Since they killed ppc and put profit above quality, Oh puleeeze. Look at the service history of the G5 iMac versus even the first-gen Intel one, it's no contest. I was around at the time, performance was very MUCH on Apple's mind because nearly every review of any new Powerbook was 'well, still no G5 powerbook and cheaper Wintel laptops are much faster, longer battery life, etc. Apple, was losing their place rapidly/ At that time, Apple had iPod, had iPhone. Now *they* are Apple's market. Macs are only decimals of a single percent in their profit. So it was okay to go everybody is using side, against think different. Because *Apple doesn't care for Macs anymore*. Just a tradition. I bet they would abandon Mac Pros and Xserve in upcoming years. (some wikipedia quotation) If you are with macs for, say, at least 7 years, as you said, then you should know. Pentium IV 4GHz vs 2xdual-core (quad') G5 970MP 2.5GHz. Megahertz myth. And then even x86 Window® systems were started to ship with single/dual-core 1.6GHz x86 CPUs. These were indeed LOWER power than previous designs but for FSM sake those WERE the CPUS put into the last gen G5's. Have you ever been into a G5? Seen the gargantuan amount of engineering that went into keeping those space heaters cool? I see a gargantuan amount of engineering that went into keeping those space heaters for all x86 systems since 2006-7. Don't you see them? No more single cooler on power supply. Now it is a lot of coolers everywhere. NO THEY WOULDN'T. Have you actually USED any Intel-based macs, head to head against a PPC system? Even the first MacBooks crushed the previous top-end Powerbooks, let along the iBooks they allegedly replaced. I'm using x86 system (i7 quad core) on work. And it is slower (everywhere: browsing web, watching movies) than my G5 dual 2.3GHz made back in late 2005. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
But Bruce Johnson, please, let's stop that. If you want to talk more about PPC-vs-x86, mail me private. Okay? -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
On Apr 17, 2012, at 1:25 PM, Douglas Mencken wrote: On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote: On Apr 17, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Douglas Mencken wrote: Since they killed ppc and put profit above quality, Oh puleeeze. Look at the service history of the G5 iMac versus even the first-gen Intel one, it's no contest. I was around at the time, performance was very MUCH on Apple's mind because nearly every review of any new Powerbook was 'well, still no G5 powerbook and cheaper Wintel laptops are much faster, longer battery life, etc. Apple, was losing their place rapidly/ At that time, Apple had iPod, had iPhone. Now *they* are Apple's market. Macs are only decimals of a single percent in their profit. Actually, per their own reports. The quarter including the Holiday 2011, they sold 37 million iPhones, 15 million iPads, 15.4 million iPods and 5.2 million Macs. The iPhone goes for about $400, the iPad about $600, the iPod (which includes the shuffle, classic, nano and touch) lets say $250, Macs average around $1200. Per their quarterly report last January, last quarter (their biggest, the holiday one) Apple made 46.3 billion gross sales, with a profit of 13.06 billion, a 28% profit margin. http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/01/24Apple-Reports-First-Quarter-Results.html Using those rough prices and numbers apple made (again, very roughly) $4.1 b on iPhones $2.6 b on iPads $2.2 b on Macs $1.1 b on iPods This comes to 10 billion, leaving 3.6 billion profit for everything else they sell, like iTunes stuff and software. This means the %profit breakdown per platform is: 30% iPhone 19% iPad 16% Macs 8% iPods Hardly 'decimals of a single percent' So it was okay to go everybody is using side, against think different. Because *Apple doesn't care for Macs anymore*. Just a tradition. I bet they would abandon Mac Pros and Xserve in upcoming years. The XServe is now the Mac Pro, and maybe they will. Depends on how well they sell. OTOH they're selling enough MacBook Airs to make the rest of the industry invent a new category to compete...the ultrabooks...that Apple is still crushing them in. (some wikipedia quotation) If you are with macs for, say, at least 7 years, as you said, then you should know. Pentium IV 4GHz vs 2xdual-core (quad') G5 970MP 2.5GHz. Megahertz myth. And then even x86 Window® systems were started to ship with single/dual-core 1.6GHz x86 CPUs. WHile I'm sure that's an answer to some question, it's not germane to the discussion at hand. No Mac laptop used either a Pentium 4 OR a G5. Again, in 2005 when the switch to Intel was announced, laptops were and increasingly larger portion of the total computer sales and the trend was accelerating. There is no doubt that the PPC out-performed Intel's offerings in the early 00's. The questions is: has anyone done so SINCE 2005 and Intel's introduction of their new, post-'pentium' lines. The answer both in the Apple market and the larger computing market is a fairly resounding 'No!'. These were indeed LOWER power than previous designs but for FSM sake those WERE the CPUS put into the last gen G5's. Have you ever been into a G5? Seen the gargantuan amount of engineering that went into keeping those space heaters cool? I see a gargantuan amount of engineering that went into keeping those space heaters for all x86 systems since 2006-7. Don't you see them? No more single cooler on power supply. Now it is a lot of coolers everywhere. I've yet to see a standard business PC (as opposed to some gamerz overclocked rig) that required liquid cooling. NO THEY WOULDN'T. Have you actually USED any Intel-based macs, head to head against a PPC system? Even the first MacBooks crushed the previous top-end Powerbooks, let along the iBooks they allegedly replaced. I'm using x86 system (i7 quad core) on work. And it is slower (everywhere: browsing web, watching movies) than my G5 dual 2.3GHz made back in late 2005. ORLY? Actual benchmarking begs to differ: http://browse.geekbench.ca/mac-benchmark/ -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
A couple of years ago I was rendering a small HD video on my Macbook Pro. Out of curiosity I tried it on a MDD sporting dual 1.33 mhz processors with 2 mb cache 2gb RAM and a large SATA hard drive. Under OSX it's was faster than any Powerbook ever made. The MBP and MDD ran the same OS and software. On the old MBP it took just under 2 hours but on the G4 it took over 48 hours. I'll bet my currant MBP would do it under an hour. I likely still have the file in my backup. Maybe I'll try it on the new quad core MBP my friend got last week. See if her's will do it in under half an hour. I'd be saddened if Apple dropped the Mac Pro but wouldn't be surprised. I likely know more than a hundred people with MBPs but maybe 2 with Mac Pros and those aren't new ones -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
iCloud vs. G4
I don't post very often and when I do I seem to be told that I posted to the wrong group. Maybe if this is the case again, someone can kindly direct me to the right list. FYI, I've been around since the Quadlist helped me with my Centris 610... For those who don't have a .mac account and wonder what is the problem, after June 30, these accounts will only work on newer iPhones/ iPads/iPods, Macs that run Lion, and PCs that run Windows Vista or Windows 7. I have a G4 Powerbook. I had to upgrade my phone so I got an iPhone, and it now syncs to the iCloud. But I want to continue to access my email from my computer (imagine that). Has anyone with a G4 been able to sync their .mac email account since this change began to occur? Supposedly we have to convert by June 30, but as of April 9 I have gotten this prompt: The .Mac server “mail.mac.com” rejected the password for user (my username)... and I can't log in. I can't log in from Mail and I can't log in from the .me/.mac links (web-based) either. They are forcing me to either buy a newer computer or give up my .mac email address that I've had since the first day they were available. Incidentally, my login info still works from my iPhone, such as when I DL iTunes, apps, etc. I've chatted with technical support, and they say there's no way... Thanks so much for your help, Claire Hart -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
On Apr 16, 2012, at 10:20 PM, oneoftheharts wrote: I don't post very often and when I do I seem to be told that I posted to the wrong group. Maybe if this is the case again, someone can kindly direct me to the right list. FYI, I've been around since the Quadlist helped me with my Centris 610... For those who don't have a .mac account and wonder what is the problem, after June 30, these accounts will only work on newer iPhones/ iPads/iPods, Macs that run Lion, and PCs that run Windows Vista or Windows 7. I have a G4 Powerbook. I had to upgrade my phone so I got an iPhone, and it now syncs to the iCloud. But I want to continue to access my email from my computer (imagine that). Has anyone with a G4 been able to sync their .mac email account since this change began to occur? Supposedly we have to convert by June 30, but as of April 9 I have gotten this prompt: The .Mac server “mail.mac.com” rejected the password for user (my username)... and I can't log in. I can't log in from Mail and I can't log in from the .me/.mac links (web-based) either. They are forcing me to either buy a newer computer or give up my .mac email address that I've had since the first day they were available. Incidentally, my login info still works from my iPhone, such as when I DL iTunes, apps, etc. I've chatted with technical support, and they say there's no way... Thanks so much for your help, Claire Hart Just another example of Apple throwing folks under the bus even though their devices have a lot of life left in 'em. In fact I can remember a couple of email services started by Apple and after a couple of years they were discontinued. Specifically, I don't have a good suggestion but can offer some solace that a friend who has been a Mac guy is in the same boat as you and he has much newer equipment. Good luck... JT -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: iCloud vs. G4
I'm not totally familiar with this since I've never used .Mac, MobileMe, or iCloud. While it's certain that there will never be any iCloud software for older PPC Macs similar to the iCloud control panel and application integration available with Lion 10.7, I think your current problem with email is simply a settings problem within OS X Mail.app. It appears the email settings of MobileMe (.Mac .Me) accounts have been changed for the migration to iCloud and that perhaps by manually entering the new correct email settings within OS X Mail.app you will be able to access your email directly from Mail.app on your PPC Mac? Here are the correct settings: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4864 I would guess that one or more of your current settings are wrong for iCloud. If this fails, you still can get your email on a PPC Mac. Other PPC users have reported that you can go to the iCloud website (iCloud.com) on any PPC Mac and login with your Apple password and connect to any of the iCloud services including email. There are 3rd-party PPC software solutions such as SOHO Organizer that will sync iCloud Contacts, Calenders, Photos, etc. on PPC Macs running 10.5.8, so this may be an option. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
