Re: [Audyssey] Thoughts on Vista and 7: was Re: challenge fordevelopers, post xp windows
Well, as I said, I'm not fully knowlegeable on the OS, and there might be things I'm just not getting. Also, I'm using JFW 11, and I can neither afford nor am I willing to go for an upgrade. My son's computer, which has Windows 7, uses NVDA. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . Crazy Ken - Original Message - From: Jacob Kruger ja...@blindza.co.za To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Thoughts on Vista and 7: was Re: challenge fordevelopers, post xp windows Will just say, funny enough, a while ago had a relatively decent spec dell laptop that was initially running windows XP on, but when then upgraded it to windows7, it firstly booted up in around half the time, but, also actually responded better under windows7 - hardware compatibility? Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Ken The PionEar kenwdow...@me.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 7:57 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Thoughts on Vista and 7: was Re: challenge for developers, post xp windows I definitely don't have look and feel issues when it comes to Windows 7, since I like trying new things. It's purely an issue of response time for me. If I hit a key and it takes a brand spankin' new computer a quarter of a second for Jaws to respond, there is an issue. That same computer just a few months down the road is even worse. I've worked with both my wife's laptop and my son's desktop, both using windows 7, and I'm not impressed. I used to have Vista on my desktop, and other than a lot of buggy behavior it wasn't too bad, but it wasn't like XP. I didn't feel it was stable or responsive. One of its best features was its accessible games. I enjoyed playing Purble Place with my son. Also, I can admit to some ignorance of how to optimize it for speed. I'm sure all the fancy animations and graphics were on, for example. I can't say one way or another as regards to Windows 8 except that i'm itching to try it just to see what it's like. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . Crazy Ken - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi Dallas, Agreed. It is sort of amusing because as you said Microsoft has stuck with the XP look and feel for so long that users forgot what it was like to go from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 or from Windows 98 to XP. Both offered major changes in the user interface and I don't remember people screaming quite as loudly or as fanatically as they are over Windows 7 and Windows8. However, what I think they need is a point of comparison. As you pointed out is that other operating systems haven't stood still or been quite as static as Windows has been for the last ten or so years. The Linux graphical desktop environments like Gnome have constantly been updating and evolving little by little until we have something completely different from what we had ten ore more years ago. Today Gnome 3.8 is as different from Gnome 2.8 as Windows 8 is from XP, but that change was gradual rather than over night. There was some grumbling on the Orca list when Gnome whent from Gnome 2.32 to 3.0, but those were mainly over access issues rather than the UI changes. This might sound a bit harsh,but I think Windows users are a bit spoiled by the fact Microsoft chose to keep their user interface as long as they have. Apple, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, and pretty much anybody who is anyone has been changing their user interfaces from version to version and Microsoft just chose to hit their customers all at once rather than ease them into it the way other software companies have. On 5/1/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: It's kind of ironic. Apple in a lot of ways, invented what we now know as windows. Microsoft actually use the ideas that apple used originally. Mind you, Apple didn't invent it either really. They technically got it from Xerox. LOL. So blame Xerox. The interesting thing about this, is that people are complaining about how different windows 8 is to Windows 7 and earlier. Because Microsoft didn't change very much in Windows for so long, So the change now has come as somewhat of a shock to some people. Especially those that have been using windows for some time. Of course, Apple has been
Re: [Audyssey] Thoughts on Vista and 7: was Re: challenge fordevelopers, post xp windows
Ok, reminds that it was either jaws 11, or jaws 12 that specifically needed to be used with windows7 to make it really viable as well - biggest issue there was that jaws would keep on seeing that you'd changed hardware, when you hadn't...smile Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Ken The PionEar kenwdow...@me.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 8:29 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Thoughts on Vista and 7: was Re: challenge fordevelopers, post xp windows Well, as I said, I'm not fully knowlegeable on the OS, and there might be things I'm just not getting. Also, I'm using JFW 11, and I can neither afford nor am I willing to go for an upgrade. My son's computer, which has Windows 7, uses NVDA. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . Crazy Ken - Original Message - From: Jacob Kruger ja...@blindza.co.za To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Thoughts on Vista and 7: was Re: challenge fordevelopers, post xp windows Will just say, funny enough, a while ago had a relatively decent spec dell laptop that was initially running windows XP on, but when then upgraded it to windows7, it firstly booted up in around half the time, but, also actually responded better under windows7 - hardware compatibility? Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Ken The PionEar kenwdow...@me.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 7:57 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Thoughts on Vista and 7: was Re: challenge for developers, post xp windows I definitely don't have look and feel issues when it comes to Windows 7, since I like trying new things. It's purely an issue of response time for me. If I hit a key and it takes a brand spankin' new computer a quarter of a second for Jaws to respond, there is an issue. That same computer just a few months down the road is even worse. I've worked with both my wife's laptop and my son's desktop, both using windows 7, and I'm not impressed. I used to have Vista on my desktop, and other than a lot of buggy behavior it wasn't too bad, but it wasn't like XP. I didn't feel it was stable or responsive. One of its best features was its accessible games. I enjoyed playing Purble Place with my son. Also, I can admit to some ignorance of how to optimize it for speed. I'm sure all the fancy animations and graphics were on, for example. I can't say one way or another as regards to Windows 8 except that i'm itching to try it just to see what it's like. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . Crazy Ken - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi Dallas, Agreed. It is sort of amusing because as you said Microsoft has stuck with the XP look and feel for so long that users forgot what it was like to go from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 or from Windows 98 to XP. Both offered major changes in the user interface and I don't remember people screaming quite as loudly or as fanatically as they are over Windows 7 and Windows8. However, what I think they need is a point of comparison. As you pointed out is that other operating systems haven't stood still or been quite as static as Windows has been for the last ten or so years. The Linux graphical desktop environments like Gnome have constantly been updating and evolving little by little until we have something completely different from what we had ten ore more years ago. Today Gnome 3.8 is as different from Gnome 2.8 as Windows 8 is from XP, but that change was gradual rather than over night. There was some grumbling on the Orca list when Gnome whent from Gnome 2.32 to 3.0, but those were mainly over access issues rather than the UI changes. This might sound a bit harsh,but I think Windows users are a bit spoiled by the fact Microsoft chose to keep their user interface as long as they have. Apple, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, and pretty much anybody who is anyone has been changing their user interfaces from version to version and Microsoft just chose to hit their customers all at once rather than ease them into it the way other software companies have. On 5/1/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com
Re: [Audyssey] Thoughts on Vista and 7: was Re: challenge fordevelopers, post xp windows
Hi. This is only one reason why I switch to NVDA, because of the fact that I could not upgrade from my old version of Jaws. It was simply getting worse and worse, with me on one version, and every six months to 12 months, a new version comes out with new abilities, and guess what! I can't use them. This is why I gave up on Jaws, in terms of a home user Situation. I can have versions of NVDA, as up-to-date, as yesterday's code. LOL. I understand however, that there are people that don't want to change, from Jaws, but Berin mind, that a lot of your Windows 7 problems, may in fact have been Jaws, not Windows 7. Even when I change from windows XP, to Windows 7, I had a fact bought a completely new Windows 7 laptop, and put Jaws on it, and guess what. It ran slower. And mind you, the laptop I bought with Windows 7 on it, was our whole lot more powerful than my XP machine ever was. It had three times the RAM, and at least two times the processor power. But as soon as I got rid of Jaws, and used NVDA completely, it ran as fast, as three of my old XP machines put together. LOL. Personally, I think that if Freedom scientific stripped jaws down, and redesigned it for more modern systems, much like Microsoft has done with windows 8 and it's background code, I'd guess that Jaws would be a whole lot better, and more responsive. I think a lot of the problem with Jaws, is that it hasn't been stripped down, and a lot of code has simply built up with buggy versions, on top of buggy versions. So now you have too much that's conflicting, and causing problems. Much like windows used to do. But now that Microsoft has redesigned windows 8 from the ground up, and stripped out a lot of old code, and rubbish that was no longer needed, it runs like a dream. Regards: Dallas On 02/05/2013, at 16:29, Ken The PionEar kenwdow...@me.com wrote: Well, as I said, I'm not fully knowlegeable on the OS, and there might be things I'm just not getting. Also, I'm using JFW 11, and I can neither afford nor am I willing to go for an upgrade. My son's computer, which has Windows 7, uses NVDA. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . Crazy Ken - Original Message - From: Jacob Kruger ja...@blindza.co.za To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Thoughts on Vista and 7: was Re: challenge fordevelopers, post xp windows Will just say, funny enough, a while ago had a relatively decent spec dell laptop that was initially running windows XP on, but when then upgraded it to windows7, it firstly booted up in around half the time, but, also actually responded better under windows7 - hardware compatibility? Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Ken The PionEar kenwdow...@me.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 7:57 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Thoughts on Vista and 7: was Re: challenge for developers, post xp windows I definitely don't have look and feel issues when it comes to Windows 7, since I like trying new things. It's purely an issue of response time for me. If I hit a key and it takes a brand spankin' new computer a quarter of a second for Jaws to respond, there is an issue. That same computer just a few months down the road is even worse. I've worked with both my wife's laptop and my son's desktop, both using windows 7, and I'm not impressed. I used to have Vista on my desktop, and other than a lot of buggy behavior it wasn't too bad, but it wasn't like XP. I didn't feel it was stable or responsive. One of its best features was its accessible games. I enjoyed playing Purble Place with my son. Also, I can admit to some ignorance of how to optimize it for speed. I'm sure all the fancy animations and graphics were on, for example. I can't say one way or another as regards to Windows 8 except that i'm itching to try it just to see what it's like. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . Crazy Ken - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] challenge for developers, post xp windows Hi Dallas, Agreed. It is sort of amusing because as you said Microsoft has stuck with the XP look and feel for so long that users forgot what it was like to go from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 or from Windows 98 to XP.
Re: [Audyssey] Thoughts on Vista and 7: was Re: challenge fordevelopers, post xp windows
Hi Dallas, Not only that but the way Jaws does things aren't exactly the best way to handle them. Take for instance the way it handles keyboard commands. Jaws sets a low-level keyboard hook that intercepts keyboard events, taking it away from the application and the operating system, filters them through Jaws and passes them back to the application or OS if it finds its not a Jaws command. Its very slow and inefficient, and I am certain this is a very big reason Jaws users find something like Windows 7 seems unresponsive. The reason is they have this very resource intensive TSR application called Jaws intercepting each and every single keyboard command, filtering through Jaws, and that causes a performance lag. Now, NVDA has a totally different way of handling that issue. NVDA simply polls the operating system and receives keyboard events the same as any other application. As a result if you press control+o in Notepad the command is immediately dispatched to Notepad rather than being routed through your screen reader first, and I've noticed that everything is more responsive using NVDA. Plus as you pointed out Jaws now has a bunch of old garbage that has probably been there since 1.0 that is no longer strictly necessary. Jaws has video intercept drivers which considering UI Automation .for WPF type applications really has no use under Windows 7/Windows 8 any more. So that and plenty of other things need to be removed and the screen reader really could use some house cleaning so to speak. Cheers! On 5/2/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. This is only one reason why I switch to NVDA, because of the fact that I could not upgrade from my old version of Jaws. It was simply getting worse and worse, with me on one version, and every six months to 12 months, a new version comes out with new abilities, and guess what! I can't use them. This is why I gave up on Jaws, in terms of a home user Situation. I can have versions of NVDA, as up-to-date, as yesterday's code. LOL. I understand however, that there are people that don't want to change, from Jaws, but Berin mind, that a lot of your Windows 7 problems, may in fact have been Jaws, not Windows 7. Even when I change from windows XP, to Windows 7, I had a fact bought a completely new Windows 7 laptop, and put Jaws on it, and guess what. It ran slower. And mind you, the laptop I bought with Windows 7 on it, was our whole lot more powerful than my XP machine ever was. It had three times the RAM, and at least two times the processor power. But as soon as I got rid of Jaws, and used NVDA completely, it ran as fast, as three of my old XP machines put together. LOL. Personally, I think that if Freedom scientific stripped jaws down, and redesigned it for more modern systems, much like Microsoft has done with windows 8 and it's background code, I'd guess that Jaws would be a whole lot better, and more responsive. I think a lot of the problem with Jaws, is that it hasn't been stripped down, and a lot of code has simply built up with buggy versions, on top of buggy versions. So now you have too much that's conflicting, and causing problems. Much like windows used to do. But now that Microsoft has redesigned windows 8 from the ground up, and stripped out a lot of old code, and rubbish that was no longer needed, it runs like a dream. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Thoughts on Vista and 7: was Re: challenge fordevelopers, post xp windows
Yes, exactly. Not the most efficient way to do things, and like you said, probably one of the reasons why jaws does not access Windows 7 or windows 8 as fast as it should. But unfortunately, like Microsoft's own business model, jaws has not been stripped down and redesigned for too long. Thankfully, Microsoft decided to do so, in Windows 8. Regards: Dallas On 03/05/2013, at 1:13, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dallas, Not only that but the way Jaws does things aren't exactly the best way to handle them. Take for instance the way it handles keyboard commands. Jaws sets a low-level keyboard hook that intercepts keyboard events, taking it away from the application and the operating system, filters them through Jaws and passes them back to the application or OS if it finds its not a Jaws command. Its very slow and inefficient, and I am certain this is a very big reason Jaws users find something like Windows 7 seems unresponsive. The reason is they have this very resource intensive TSR application called Jaws intercepting each and every single keyboard command, filtering through Jaws, and that causes a performance lag. Now, NVDA has a totally different way of handling that issue. NVDA simply polls the operating system and receives keyboard events the same as any other application. As a result if you press control+o in Notepad the command is immediately dispatched to Notepad rather than being routed through your screen reader first, and I've noticed that everything is more responsive using NVDA. Plus as you pointed out Jaws now has a bunch of old garbage that has probably been there since 1.0 that is no longer strictly necessary. Jaws has video intercept drivers which considering UI Automation .for WPF type applications really has no use under Windows 7/Windows 8 any more. So that and plenty of other things need to be removed and the screen reader really could use some house cleaning so to speak. Cheers! On 5/2/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. This is only one reason why I switch to NVDA, because of the fact that I could not upgrade from my old version of Jaws. It was simply getting worse and worse, with me on one version, and every six months to 12 months, a new version comes out with new abilities, and guess what! I can't use them. This is why I gave up on Jaws, in terms of a home user Situation. I can have versions of NVDA, as up-to-date, as yesterday's code. LOL. I understand however, that there are people that don't want to change, from Jaws, but Berin mind, that a lot of your Windows 7 problems, may in fact have been Jaws, not Windows 7. Even when I change from windows XP, to Windows 7, I had a fact bought a completely new Windows 7 laptop, and put Jaws on it, and guess what. It ran slower. And mind you, the laptop I bought with Windows 7 on it, was our whole lot more powerful than my XP machine ever was. It had three times the RAM, and at least two times the processor power. But as soon as I got rid of Jaws, and used NVDA completely, it ran as fast, as three of my old XP machines put together. LOL. Personally, I think that if Freedom scientific stripped jaws down, and redesigned it for more modern systems, much like Microsoft has done with windows 8 and it's background code, I'd guess that Jaws would be a whole lot better, and more responsive. I think a lot of the problem with Jaws, is that it hasn't been stripped down, and a lot of code has simply built up with buggy versions, on top of buggy versions. So now you have too much that's conflicting, and causing problems. Much like windows used to do. But now that Microsoft has redesigned windows 8 from the ground up, and stripped out a lot of old code, and rubbish that was no longer needed, it runs like a dream. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Thoughts on Vista and 7: was Re: challenge fordevelopers, post xp windows
well till I started using nvda I realised how much others dolphin, gwmicro jaws and the rest had relied on mostly their stuff and not what was there. Bar a few external libraries and modules nvda gets most of its info from everything thats installed in the os. Ok a few things that need intercepters and vertual mode don't work like smuglers 4 and 5 and maybe a few other apps but if its web based or has a link to ms controls it will attempt to read it. 99% of all apps work. Even some custom controls it will attempt to read. so you can use eudora 7 with it, not that well but you can. At 03:13 AM 5/3/2013, you wrote: Hi Dallas, Not only that but the way Jaws does things aren't exactly the best way to handle them. Take for instance the way it handles keyboard commands. Jaws sets a low-level keyboard hook that intercepts keyboard events, taking it away from the application and the operating system, filters them through Jaws and passes them back to the application or OS if it finds its not a Jaws command. Its very slow and inefficient, and I am certain this is a very big reason Jaws users find something like Windows 7 seems unresponsive. The reason is they have this very resource intensive TSR application called Jaws intercepting each and every single keyboard command, filtering through Jaws, and that causes a performance lag. Now, NVDA has a totally different way of handling that issue. NVDA simply polls the operating system and receives keyboard events the same as any other application. As a result if you press control+o in Notepad the command is immediately dispatched to Notepad rather than being routed through your screen reader first, and I've noticed that everything is more responsive using NVDA. Plus as you pointed out Jaws now has a bunch of old garbage that has probably been there since 1.0 that is no longer strictly necessary. Jaws has video intercept drivers which considering UI Automation .for WPF type applications really has no use under Windows 7/Windows 8 any more. So that and plenty of other things need to be removed and the screen reader really could use some house cleaning so to speak. Cheers! On 5/2/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. This is only one reason why I switch to NVDA, because of the fact that I could not upgrade from my old version of Jaws. It was simply getting worse and worse, with me on one version, and every six months to 12 months, a new version comes out with new abilities, and guess what! I can't use them. This is why I gave up on Jaws, in terms of a home user Situation. I can have versions of NVDA, as up-to-date, as yesterday's code. LOL. I understand however, that there are people that don't want to change, from Jaws, but Berin mind, that a lot of your Windows 7 problems, may in fact have been Jaws, not Windows 7. Even when I change from windows XP, to Windows 7, I had a fact bought a completely new Windows 7 laptop, and put Jaws on it, and guess what. It ran slower. And mind you, the laptop I bought with Windows 7 on it, was our whole lot more powerful than my XP machine ever was. It had three times the RAM, and at least two times the processor power. But as soon as I got rid of Jaws, and used NVDA completely, it ran as fast, as three of my old XP machines put together. LOL. Personally, I think that if Freedom scientific stripped jaws down, and redesigned it for more modern systems, much like Microsoft has done with windows 8 and it's background code, I'd guess that Jaws would be a whole lot better, and more responsive. I think a lot of the problem with Jaws, is that it hasn't been stripped down, and a lot of code has simply built up with buggy versions, on top of buggy versions. So now you have too much that's conflicting, and causing problems. Much like windows used to do. But now that Microsoft has redesigned windows 8 from the ground up, and stripped out a lot of old code, and rubbish that was no longer needed, it runs like a dream. Regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
