Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
true tom. However since most sighted side scrolers just have better graphics and such I doubt we can do much to improve them. I guess if we stopped using legacy languages and then had things use all the cpu to play a game we could fake it but still. Right now if we got all the stuff mainstreamers got they would become to hard for us to play, I havn't even managed to win superliam yet. At 11:15 p.m. 26/03/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Kevin, I hate to say it, but that's usually the case. Far too many people associate side-scrollers with games like Super Liam or Q9 when to be honest they are not even close to what a mainstream gamer thinks of when you mention side-scroller to them. If mainstream side-scrollers were that simplistic I don't think they would have lasted as long as they have for mainstream consoles. Clear back as early as 1984 Montezuma's Revenge was far more challenging and advanced than Super Liam. You basically were in an Aztec pyramid with several chambers above, below, to the left, and right of the room you were in. There were colored keys to unlock doors, chains to climb up/down, vanishing platforms to jump on, gems hanging in the air you had to jump up and grab, etc. Then, some of the skulls bounced up and down forcing you to try and duck under them as you ran, and other skulls rolling on the ground you had to jump over. You had to use torches to light dark rooms, and certain levels were completely blacked out. So even then, by the early 180's, the mainstream games were light years ahead of something like Super Liam or Q9. Of course, as time went on they even got more advanced. There are too many changes and different things added to mainstream side-scrollers over the years to name them all, but they are still being developed, and older side-scrollers are still being offered as downloads for various consoles. However, needless to say, our perspective of what a side-scroller is happens to be very limited in scope compared to the hundreds of mainstream side-scrollers our sighted peers play, and yet most blind gamers continue to associate the term side-scroller with those few games we have. Cheers! On 3/26/2012 10:51 PM, Kevin Andrews wrote: Hi Thomas, Thanks for the pointers. Those were indeed the games I was indirectly referring to when mentioning side-scrollers. i know Philip Benefall does some of the things you mention in his game Perilous Hearts, like there is side to side stuff as well as jumping on and climbing vines, falling back down, etc. Take care! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
I'd like to disagree with the idea that mainstream side scrollers just improve their graphics. As I've played side scrollers across the past few decades, I've never stopped and thought that one was the same as another, simply with improved graphics. From the early days until now, puzzle and features of these games have continued to advance at a steady pace. I desperately feel the need to jump in to refute the statement about legacy langauges. I'm sure my statement here will be ignored by some because they see me as bias based on the current language I've been releasing games in, but I feel this is important to say. Mainstream games are superior to audio games because of content, features, and perhaps sound quality. None of those are based on the language someone uses. More times than I can count I have seen people in the community blame programming languages for the simplistic nature of their own games or for audio games in general. I firmly believe this is just an easy excuse to make... a scape goat. I totally understand why having a scape goat is a nice thing because human beings make excuses all the time, but the problem is when people actually believe the excuses. If even 1 person hears that languages X, Y, and Z are the reason audio games are behind mainstream games, and believes it, then they are going to go forward with a completely backward idea of how programming works. If the programming language can accept key strokes and output sound, then that's really all you need. The developers in this community are sitting on a huge advantage that they don't seem to understand! Audio games don't require graphics, and graphics are at least 90% of the work mainstream games have to do! The question of CPU and memory usage is completely thrown out in this community. Let me explain this in terms of Swamp, since many have played that game and compared it to mainstream shooters. Because I didn't have to do 3D graphics for Swamp I got to benefit from the huge audio-only advantage of this community. Lets count all of the strikes against it which are the kinds of things I usually see brought up in these sorts of discussions. I wrote the game using a very very old programming language, strike 1. The programming language I use is an interpreted language which slows down performance, strike 2. I'm using a depreciated version of Direct X, strike 3. The game was very sloppily thrown together making it very inefficient in many parts of the code, strike 4. The multiplayer is linking people from the entire world which introduces latency issues that no mainstream FPS would ever dare work with, a huge strike 5! The server running everything is an old 1Ghz processor computer with 320 megs of ram (due to a bad chip), running windows, and sharing the system with the Castaways server software, strike 6. The game contains dozens of human players, between hundreds to thousands of zombies, all constantly performing trigonometry based calculations for movement, aiming, collision detection, and path finding, strike 7. All of the users are experiencing performance slow downs because screen readers take a hefty told on your systems, strike 8. With the exception of some modern physics based games, I am comfortable saying that Swamp handles just as much math calculation as any mainstream first person shooter game. Keep in mind that first person shooter games are among the most processor intensive of all mainstream games. So with all of this taken into consideration, I think it's clear just how amazing the no graphics advantage is! That single advantage has completely nullified all 8 of those strikes against the game. I hope this opens a few eyes, if you'll pardon the expression. There really are no reasons to continue spreading around excuses about programming languages or methods. The only thing holding this community back are ideas. Just ideas. The most primitive languages floating around are just as capable of producing some amazing games, because you have that 1 huge advantage that the rest of the world is missing. You might as well take advantage of it. Sorry about the rant, and I hope this didn't come across as being directed at you Shaun. It just seemed like the right spot to jump in on this issue. true tom. However since most sighted side scrolers just have better graphics and such I doubt we can do much to improve them. I guess if we stopped using legacy languages and then had things use all the cpu to play a game we could fake it but still. Right now if we got all the stuff mainstreamers got they would become to hard for us to play, I havn't even managed to win superliam yet. At 11:15 p.m. 26/03/2012 -0400, you wrote: --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
I need to post a correction. I've been informed that VB6 isn't an interpreted language. I didn't realize that it uses a JIT compiler. Of course I still will use that as a strike against Swamp in my rant because I'm running the server uncompiled from within the VB6 environment, and that slows things down a lot as compared to a compiled executable. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
Hi jeremy. Thats all fine and good but its not if in the next windows or the next after that that your games don't work anymore. in 7 we have to fiddle with files to get this stuff to work and maybe 8. And if it completely dies in 9 thats it. Since most audiogames are made or rather the oldest ones were made with vb6 most games won't work sooner or later. Unless you have a vm on your system. At 10:23 a.m. 27/03/2012 -0700, you wrote: I'd like to disagree with the idea that mainstream side scrollers just improve their graphics. As I've played side scrollers across the past few decades, I've never stopped and thought that one was the same as another, simply with improved graphics. From the early days until now, puzzle and features of these games have continued to advance at a steady pace. I desperately feel the need to jump in to refute the statement about legacy langauges. I'm sure my statement here will be ignored by some because they see me as bias based on the current language I've been releasing games in, but I feel this is important to say. Mainstream games are superior to audio games because of content, features, and perhaps sound quality. None of those are based on the language someone uses. More times than I can count I have seen people in the community blame programming languages for the simplistic nature of their own games or for audio games in general. I firmly believe this is just an easy excuse to make... a scape goat. I totally understand why having a scape goat is a nice thing because human beings make excuses all the time, but the problem is when people actually believe the excuses. If even 1 person hears that languages X, Y, and Z are the reason audio games are behind mainstream games, and believes it, then they are going to go forward with a completely backward idea of how programming works. If the programming language can accept key strokes and output sound, then that's really all you need. The developers in this community are sitting on a huge advantage that they don't seem to understand! Audio games don't require graphics, and graphics are at least 90% of the work mainstream games have to do! The question of CPU and memory usage is completely thrown out in this community. Let me explain this in terms of Swamp, since many have played that game and compared it to mainstream shooters. Because I didn't have to do 3D graphics for Swamp I got to benefit from the huge audio-only advantage of this community. Lets count all of the strikes against it which are the kinds of things I usually see brought up in these sorts of discussions. I wrote the game using a very very old programming language, strike 1. The programming language I use is an interpreted language which slows down performance, strike 2. I'm using a depreciated version of Direct X, strike 3. The game was very sloppily thrown together making it very inefficient in many parts of the code, strike 4. The multiplayer is linking people from the entire world which introduces latency issues that no mainstream FPS would ever dare work with, a huge strike 5! The server running everything is an old 1Ghz processor computer with 320 megs of ram (due to a bad chip), running windows, and sharing the system with the Castaways server software, strike 6. The game contains dozens of human players, between hundreds to thousands of zombies, all constantly performing trigonometry based calculations for movement, aiming, collision detection, and path finding, strike 7. All of the users are experiencing performance slow downs because screen readers take a hefty told on your systems, strike 8. With the exception of some modern physics based games, I am comfortable saying that Swamp handles just as much math calculation as any mainstream first person shooter game. Keep in mind that first person shooter games are among the most processor intensive of all mainstream games. So with all of this taken into consideration, I think it's clear just how amazing the no graphics advantage is! That single advantage has completely nullified all 8 of those strikes against the game. I hope this opens a few eyes, if you'll pardon the expression. There really are no reasons to continue spreading around excuses about programming languages or methods. The only thing holding this community back are ideas. Just ideas. The most primitive languages floating around are just as capable of producing some amazing games, because you have that 1 huge advantage that the rest of the world is missing. You might as well take advantage of it. Sorry about the rant, and I hope this didn't come across as being directed at you Shaun. It just seemed like the right spot to jump in on this issue. true tom. However since most sighted side scrolers just have better graphics and such I doubt we can do much to improve them. I guess if we stopped using legacy languages and then had things
Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
Shaun I'm confused. Whether or not a given language will survive into the future doesn't seem to fit with this particular conversation. How does any of that affect the quality of games that people can make with those languages now? The issue is the belief that languages and computer power have been holding the blind community back from creating games with mainstream quality. Hi jeremy. Thats all fine and good but its not if in the next windows or the next after that that your games don't work anymore. in 7 we have to fiddle with files to get this stuff to work and maybe 8. And if it completely dies in 9 thats it. Since most audiogames are made or rather the oldest ones were made with vb6 most games won't work sooner or later. Unless you have a vm on your system. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
Shaun, I beg to disagree. Some of the classic side-scrollers out there don't have fantastic graphics and are still enjoyed by many people. Something like the original Donkey Kong for Atari didn't have fantastic graphics but the game play was very very challenging. Only a small handful of people actually completed the game because of the difficulty involved. Many retro gamers still play the game despite the fact it is at least 25 years old. As for the comment about legacy languages that has nothing to do with it. How good a game is depends more on the programmer not the tools and languages to write it. Yes, there may be some limitations such as game x won't run on certain platforms or that language x can't use a better API, but a well written game will always be a good game regardless of language, API, and tools. For example, Shades of Doom is probably the most well known and liked game by the audio gaming community. It was written in Visual Basic 6, uses DirectX 8, and uses all legacy software and languages. However, the fact it was written using legacy programming APIs and tools has no effect on Shades of doom being a well designed, very decent, 2d FPS similar to Doom. Cheers! On 3/27/2012 6:47 AM, shaun everiss wrote: true tom. However since most sighted side scrolers just have better graphics and such I doubt we can do much to improve them. I guess if we stopped using legacy languages and then had things use all the cpu to play a game we could fake it but still. Right now if we got all the stuff mainstreamers got they would become to hard for us to play, I havn't even managed to win superliam yet. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
What I meant, is that it doesn't matter how good a game is if it doesn't run on your box. Right now they do but sooner or later they won't. At 05:46 p.m. 27/03/2012 -0400, you wrote: Shaun, I beg to disagree. Some of the classic side-scrollers out there don't have fantastic graphics and are still enjoyed by many people. Something like the original Donkey Kong for Atari didn't have fantastic graphics but the game play was very very challenging. Only a small handful of people actually completed the game because of the difficulty involved. Many retro gamers still play the game despite the fact it is at least 25 years old. As for the comment about legacy languages that has nothing to do with it. How good a game is depends more on the programmer not the tools and languages to write it. Yes, there may be some limitations such as game x won't run on certain platforms or that language x can't use a better API, but a well written game will always be a good game regardless of language, API, and tools. For example, Shades of Doom is probably the most well known and liked game by the audio gaming community. It was written in Visual Basic 6, uses DirectX 8, and uses all legacy software and languages. However, the fact it was written using legacy programming APIs and tools has no effect on Shades of doom being a well designed, very decent, 2d FPS similar to Doom. Cheers! On 3/27/2012 6:47 AM, shaun everiss wrote: true tom. However since most sighted side scrolers just have better graphics and such I doubt we can do much to improve them. I guess if we stopped using legacy languages and then had things use all the cpu to play a game we could fake it but still. Right now if we got all the stuff mainstreamers got they would become to hard for us to play, I havn't even managed to win superliam yet. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
I understand that point Shaun, but I think it's a totally separate conversation. If we lined up all of the audio games that exist and listed ways that they fall short of mainstream games, the language used or the processing power needed would never be the reason. What I meant, is that it doesn't matter how good a game is if it doesn't run on your box. Right now they do but sooner or later they won't. At 05:46 p.m. 27/03/2012 -0400, you wrote: Shaun, --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
Hi Jeremy, I completely agree with you on all points. The language being used has absolutely nothing to do with how good or bad a game is and what features it has. There may be some technical limitations, but it has more to do with the developer not the tools. For instance, Time of Conflict, written by GMA Games, is probably the most safisticated audio strategy game ever developed. We could sit here and point out its short comings like its written in Visual Basic 6, it uses DirectX 8, and so on but none of that has any effect on weather or not Time of Conflict is a great game. Which it most certainly is. Rewriting it in C++ or any other language won't make the game any better or worse as a fun and enjoyable game. Fact of the matter is if I wanted to do it I could sit down and rewrite the game in Python 2.7 with Pygame and end up with essentually the very same game. There might be some advantages to writing it in Python such as being Mac OS and Linux compatible, but that doesn't effect how the game plays or weather or not someone gets any enjoyment out of it. For a Windows user there wouldn't be any advantage for him/her. So needless to say its not the language but the developer that makes a game good or bad. Cheers! On 3/27/2012 1:23 PM, Jeremy Kaldobsky wrote: I'd like to disagree with the idea that mainstream side scrollers just improve their graphics. As I've played side scrollers across the past few decades, I've never stopped and thought that one was the same as another, simply with improved graphics. From the early days until now, puzzle and features of these games have continued to advance at a steady pace. I desperately feel the need to jump in to refute the statement about legacy langauges. I'm sure my statement here will be ignored by some because they see me as bias based on the current language I've been releasing games in, but I feel this is important to say. Mainstream games are superior to audio games because of content, features, and perhaps sound quality. None of those are based on the language someone uses. More times than I can count I have seen people in the community blame programming languages for the simplistic nature of their own games or for audio games in general. I firmly believe this is just an easy excuse to make... a scape goat. I totally understand why having a scape goat is a nice thing because human beings make excuses all the time, but the problem is when people actually believe the excuses. If even 1 person hears that languages X, Y, and Z are the reason audio games are behind mainstream games, and believes it, then they are going to go forward with a completely backward idea of how programming works. If the programming language can accept key strokes and output sound, then that's really all you need. The developers in this community are sitting on a huge advantage that they don't seem to understand! Audio games don't require graphics, and graphics are at least 90% of the work mainstream games have to do! The question of CPU and memory usage is completely thrown out in this community. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
Thomas that's exactly the point I was trying to get across. This topic ties in very well with your Proposal for Game Developers topic, because in the end I firmly believe that the lack of ideas within the community is the reason audio games are behind mainstream ones. I'm hoping that with a bit more insight into mainstream games, audio games will get one step closer. Hi Jeremy, I completely agree with you on all points. The language being used has absolutely nothing to do with how good or bad a game is and what features it has. There may be some technical limitations, but it has more to do with the developer not the tools. For instance, Time of Conflict, written by GMA Games, is probably the most safisticated audio strategy game ever developed. We could sit here and point out its short comings like its written in Visual Basic 6, it uses DirectX 8, and so on but none of that has any effect on weather or not Time of Conflict is a great game. Which it most certainly is. Rewriting it in C++ or any other language won't make the game any better or worse as a fun and enjoyable game. Fact of the matter is if I wanted to do it I could sit down and rewrite the game in Python 2.7 with Pygame and end up with essentually the very same game. There might be some advantages to writing it in Python such as being Mac OS and Linux compatible, but that doesn't effect how the game plays or weather or not someone gets any enjoyment out of it. For a Windows user there wouldn't be any advantage for him/her. So needless to say its not the language but the developer that makes a game good or bad. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
Hello all list members, I've been considering writing a game in the future. I've done a few small and rather trivial projects with myself and a friend, but nothing too significant. I'm wondering, from the VI gaming community, what your thoughts are on a game idea. I've thrown some ideas around in my head. Basically you're in a city environment... New York or Chicago for the sake of practicality. You've got to get past stuff, perhaps gang members, careless drivers or maybe even bikers, etc. You've got to watch out for the cops, etc. You have weapons, for example a pistol, your fists, and a switchblade you can steal from someone. I'm thinking something along the lines of Grand Theft Auto, so it would have some violence and maybe that type of action. There would be various levels, and the end you have to deal with a boss-type situation. The premise of the game might be you have to give the boss money or do a kill. You're involved with a gang and therefore have to do a deed for this guy. Obviously one can tell just by reading this that this would require a lot of time and effort, and a bit of spending on my part for sounds, music, etc. Does this sound remotely interesting to anyone? I've considered a side-scroller, but in my opinion we've got an overabundance of side-scrolling games, so perhaps a 2d environment would be more suitable. Thoughts? This is no way in any stage of development right now, as I've got other things I'm preoccupied with, but I may consider this if the interest is sufficient. Thanks and take care all. -- Kevin J. Andrews Email: kevin.andrew...@gmail.com A man who never made a mistake never tried anything new.-Albert Einstein --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
I would probably play it if it was a 2d game, although I agree with you we've got quite a few side scrollers. Take care, -Michael, MTGames. -Original Message- From: Kevin Andrews Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 5:42 PM To: gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future Hello all list members, I've been considering writing a game in the future. I've done a few small and rather trivial projects with myself and a friend, but nothing too significant. I'm wondering, from the VI gaming community, what your thoughts are on a game idea. I've thrown some ideas around in my head. Basically you're in a city environment... New York or Chicago for the sake of practicality. You've got to get past stuff, perhaps gang members, careless drivers or maybe even bikers, etc. You've got to watch out for the cops, etc. You have weapons, for example a pistol, your fists, and a switchblade you can steal from someone. I'm thinking something along the lines of Grand Theft Auto, so it would have some violence and maybe that type of action. There would be various levels, and the end you have to deal with a boss-type situation. The premise of the game might be you have to give the boss money or do a kill. You're involved with a gang and therefore have to do a deed for this guy. Obviously one can tell just by reading this that this would require a lot of time and effort, and a bit of spending on my part for sounds, music, etc. Does this sound remotely interesting to anyone? I've considered a side-scroller, but in my opinion we've got an overabundance of side-scrolling games, so perhaps a 2d environment would be more suitable. Thoughts? This is no way in any stage of development right now, as I've got other things I'm preoccupied with, but I may consider this if the interest is sufficient. Thanks and take care all. -- Kevin J. Andrews Email: kevin.andrew...@gmail.com A man who never made a mistake never tried anything new.-Albert Einstein --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
Hi Kevin, What exactly do you mean by I've considered a side-scroller, but in my opinion we've got an overabundance of side-scrolling games, so perhaps a 2d environment would be more suitable? First, a properly written side-scroller is a 2d environment. It has an x axis, left to right, and a y axis, up and down. So what do you mean by a 2d game given side-scrollers are 2d to begin with? Second, is if you mean by side-scroller games like Super Liam, Q9, etc those are very poor examples of side-scrollers, and should not be representative of the style. True side-scroller games like Megaman, Castlevania, Montezuma's Revenge, etc have a vertical element as well as a horizontal element. Both the x and y axis are used for navigation as well as combat. We don't have too many true side-scrollers available in accessible form that equals mainstream games. For example, in the 1989 Batman game there are a number of thugs on the ground to beat up with punches and kicks, but there are also enemies up on walls and on telephone polls Batman can't reach. The way to take them out is by aiming Batman's batarang up into the air and knocking them down. In later stages you have to keep an eye out for enemy robots and traps that fall down from the ceiling when you pass under them. No audio side-scroller has even attempted to add this kind of combat system, and there are plenty of other thins common to mainstream side-scrollers no audio game developer has tried in audio yet. Basically, what I am saying is before you make a comment like there are too many side-scrollers I think you need to step back from what is being presented to the blind as the real deal and educate yourself to aspects of that type of game that haven't been explored. Once you forget about Super Liam, Tarzan Junior, and Q9 you'll see there really aren't that many side-scrollers. Especially, those that make use of a full 2d environment with the ability to move left/right, climb up/down, fight enemies up in the air as well as those on the ground, jump on moving platforms, and 100 other things that just haven't been tried in an audio side-scroller before. To give you a brief idea of what I mean let's talk about your game idea a moment. You say its in a major city like New York or Chicago. Well, this gives us a perfect 2d environment to work with. I can see something similar to the first stage of Ninja Turtles where you have an upper area, the street, and a lower area, the city sewers. This would give you a choice how to get from point A to point B. You can walk along the street level beating up enemy gang members, or you can descend a ladder into the sewer and avoid them. However, if you take the sewers there would be rats that you would have to avoid or kill so there would be challenges either way. That's one possibility of making use of a 2d environment. Another idea is to have an upper area, the roofs of various buildings, and a lower area, the street level. As you move along there might be enemies on the ground trying to kill you while there are snipers hiding on the tops of certain buildings. To kill them you can either add an ability to target up into the air to shoot them from sniper positions, or you add some realistic way such as ladders here and there to climb up onto the roof and then fight them on the rooftops. That's another idea that hasn't been used in an audio side-scroller before. If you have a factory or warehouse type level there could be conveyor belts that cause you to move from place to place, lifts to jump on and get carried up to higher levels, and thins like that. If you think about it and get creative here I'm pretty sure you could turn out a decent side-scroller with this game if you wanted to go that route. Its just that many blind audio game developers are just so misinformed on what is out there for the mainstream gamers that they have no real sense of comparison. So I thought I'd give you a few pointers here on mainstream side-scrollers to help let everyone know that Super Liam, Q9, etc is not the be all and end all of side-scrollers by any means. Cheers! On 3/26/2012 6:42 PM, Kevin Andrews wrote: Hello all list members, I've been considering writing a game in the future. I've done a few small and rather trivial projects with myself and a friend, but nothing too significant. I'm wondering, from the VI gaming community, what your thoughts are on a game idea. I've thrown some ideas around in my head. Basically you're in a city environment... New York or Chicago for the sake of practicality. You've got to get past stuff, perhaps gang members, careless drivers or maybe even bikers, etc. You've got to watch out for the cops, etc. You have weapons, for example a pistol, your fists, and a switchblade you can steal from someone. I'm thinking something along the lines of Grand Theft Auto, so it would have some violence and maybe that type of action. There
Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
Hi Thomas, Thanks for the pointers. Those were indeed the games I was indirectly referring to when mentioning side-scrollers. i know Philip Benefall does some of the things you mention in his game Perilous Hearts, like there is side to side stuff as well as jumping on and climbing vines, falling back down, etc. Take care! On 3/26/2012 10:32 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Kevin, What exactly do you mean by I've considered a side-scroller, but in my opinion we've got an overabundance of side-scrolling games, so perhaps a 2d environment would be more suitable? First, a properly written side-scroller is a 2d environment. It has an x axis, left to right, and a y axis, up and down. So what do you mean by a 2d game given side-scrollers are 2d to begin with? Second, is if you mean by side-scroller games like Super Liam, Q9, etc those are very poor examples of side-scrollers, and should not be representative of the style. True side-scroller games like Megaman, Castlevania, Montezuma's Revenge, etc have a vertical element as well as a horizontal element. Both the x and y axis are used for navigation as well as combat. We don't have too many true side-scrollers available in accessible form that equals mainstream games. For example, in the 1989 Batman game there are a number of thugs on the ground to beat up with punches and kicks, but there are also enemies up on walls and on telephone polls Batman can't reach. The way to take them out is by aiming Batman's batarang up into the air and knocking them down. In later stages you have to keep an eye out for enemy robots and traps that fall down from the ceiling when you pass under them. No audio side-scroller has even attempted to add this kind of combat system, and there are plenty of other thins common to mainstream side-scrollers no audio game developer has tried in audio yet. Basically, what I am saying is before you make a comment like there are too many side-scrollers I think you need to step back from what is being presented to the blind as the real deal and educate yourself to aspects of that type of game that haven't been explored. Once you forget about Super Liam, Tarzan Junior, and Q9 you'll see there really aren't that many side-scrollers. Especially, those that make use of a full 2d environment with the ability to move left/right, climb up/down, fight enemies up in the air as well as those on the ground, jump on moving platforms, and 100 other things that just haven't been tried in an audio side-scroller before. To give you a brief idea of what I mean let's talk about your game idea a moment. You say its in a major city like New York or Chicago. Well, this gives us a perfect 2d environment to work with. I can see something similar to the first stage of Ninja Turtles where you have an upper area, the street, and a lower area, the city sewers. This would give you a choice how to get from point A to point B. You can walk along the street level beating up enemy gang members, or you can descend a ladder into the sewer and avoid them. However, if you take the sewers there would be rats that you would have to avoid or kill so there would be challenges either way. That's one possibility of making use of a 2d environment. Another idea is to have an upper area, the roofs of various buildings, and a lower area, the street level. As you move along there might be enemies on the ground trying to kill you while there are snipers hiding on the tops of certain buildings. To kill them you can either add an ability to target up into the air to shoot them from sniper positions, or you add some realistic way such as ladders here and there to climb up onto the roof and then fight them on the rooftops. That's another idea that hasn't been used in an audio side-scroller before. If you have a factory or warehouse type level there could be conveyor belts that cause you to move from place to place, lifts to jump on and get carried up to higher levels, and thins like that. If you think about it and get creative here I'm pretty sure you could turn out a decent side-scroller with this game if you wanted to go that route. Its just that many blind audio game developers are just so misinformed on what is out there for the mainstream gamers that they have no real sense of comparison. So I thought I'd give you a few pointers here on mainstream side-scrollers to help let everyone know that Super Liam, Q9, etc is not the be all and end all of side-scrollers by any means. Cheers! On 3/26/2012 6:42 PM, Kevin Andrews wrote: Hello all list members, I've been considering writing a game in the future. I've done a few small and rather trivial projects with myself and a friend, but nothing too significant. I'm wondering, from the VI gaming community, what your thoughts are on a game idea. I've thrown some ideas around in my head. Basically you're in a city environment... New York or Chicago for the sake of
Re: [Audyssey] a possible game from me in the future
Hi Kevin, I hate to say it, but that's usually the case. Far too many people associate side-scrollers with games like Super Liam or Q9 when to be honest they are not even close to what a mainstream gamer thinks of when you mention side-scroller to them. If mainstream side-scrollers were that simplistic I don't think they would have lasted as long as they have for mainstream consoles. Clear back as early as 1984 Montezuma's Revenge was far more challenging and advanced than Super Liam. You basically were in an Aztec pyramid with several chambers above, below, to the left, and right of the room you were in. There were colored keys to unlock doors, chains to climb up/down, vanishing platforms to jump on, gems hanging in the air you had to jump up and grab, etc. Then, some of the skulls bounced up and down forcing you to try and duck under them as you ran, and other skulls rolling on the ground you had to jump over. You had to use torches to light dark rooms, and certain levels were completely blacked out. So even then, by the early 180's, the mainstream games were light years ahead of something like Super Liam or Q9. Of course, as time went on they even got more advanced. There are too many changes and different things added to mainstream side-scrollers over the years to name them all, but they are still being developed, and older side-scrollers are still being offered as downloads for various consoles. However, needless to say, our perspective of what a side-scroller is happens to be very limited in scope compared to the hundreds of mainstream side-scrollers our sighted peers play, and yet most blind gamers continue to associate the term side-scroller with those few games we have. Cheers! On 3/26/2012 10:51 PM, Kevin Andrews wrote: Hi Thomas, Thanks for the pointers. Those were indeed the games I was indirectly referring to when mentioning side-scrollers. i know Philip Benefall does some of the things you mention in his game Perilous Hearts, like there is side to side stuff as well as jumping on and climbing vines, falling back down, etc. Take care! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
