Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 8:23 AM, Moriel Schottlender wrote: > Did this really just happen? > > Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not participating > as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle suggestion of the > cause being that they didn't feel this group is completely woman-friendly -- > and your response was to "remind us" what the point of this group is about? > Did I misunderstand your email? > > > We're all here for the same goal, but some of us experience this problem > differently than others, and some appear to have gone frustrated and annoyed > and are not participating as much as they used to. That's a problem. That's > not something we should ignore. And we should figure out why it happens > (because it seemed to have happened to more than just two arguing women) and > how to make sure it is getting better. > > > Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at least in this > mailing list, to make things a tad better for women to participate in: > > In a group about the gender gap, men should attempt to take a step back. Can we get this in the footer of every email? Or a link to: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Statement_of_purpose:_communities_including_men Then these threads can be one reply with a pointer to the link. :) -VAL > That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. But > they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so > unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should > take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound > like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or > generalizations. > > The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot > less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the > rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. > > And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like > they need to constantly defend the "reasons" for their experiences and > feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual > experience. > > > Moriel > > > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Derric Atzrott > wrote: >> >> >> Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: >> >> A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email >> >> list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started >> >> hassling them about it. >> >> SURPRISE!! >> > >> > By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading >> > this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal >> > women. >> > >> > Nemo >> >> Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this >> discussion is >> going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all >> here? >> >> From the Mailing list signup page: >> "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation >> of >> women within Wikimedia projects. >> >> Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in >> Wikipedia >> and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is >> provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to >> collectively >> address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are >> focused >> on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a >> starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of >> women >> and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, >> Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage >> you >> to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this >> regard matter to us and to the community." >> >> Thank you, >> Derric Atzrott >> >> >> ___ >> Gendergap mailing list >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > > > > > -- > No trees were harmed in the creation of this post. > But billions of electrons, photons, and electromagnetic waves were terribly > inconvenienced during its transmission! > > ___ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > -- Valerie Aurora Executive Director You can help increase the participation of women in open technology and culture! Donate today at http://adainitiative.org/donate/ ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
tar Kayden Kross, reviewing a > different film each week. > > I complained (by e-mail - no dissent allowed on the forums remember), I > was ignored, so then I tried a different tactic. I wrote to various groups > dealing with domestic violence that were based in Southwark, London (home > of the Old Vic where Spacey is the Artistic Director), asking them to lobby > Kevin Spacey at the Old Vic. I also wrote to all the e-mail addresses > within the Old Vic that I could find. It worked the other podcasts > continued but the ones by Kayden Kross stopped. > > The rules about using the website also changed, including the following > new statement:* "While using the Site or Services, you agree not to: > Transmit any content or information that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, > abusive, harassing, defamatory, libelous, vulgar, obscene, hateful, > fraudulent or otherwise objectionable content, or infringes on our or any > third party's intellectual property or other rights."* > > I have no idea how much of that (if any) was because down to what I did. I > have also no idea how rigorously the new rules were / are enforced, they > got rid of me around the same time as Kross. My account, not deleted, just > suspended where it has remained since August 2011, no explanation given and > no indication as to if / when it will be reinstated - if they read this it > will probably > > The film - *50 Shades of Grey* is set to be released on Valentine's Day > 2015, it is being made by Trigger Street Productions. > > Marie > > -- > From: ltpowers_w...@rochester.rr.com > To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 08:24:12 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale > > Wow. That's sobering. I'd like to think we don't have it that bad on > WMF sites, but maybe we do? > > > > Then there's this: > > > > "Technical solutions abound when websites and apps provide options that > take targeted users into consideration -- namely, giving us back our > ability to make boundaries. For instance, sites shouldn't let strangers > message strangers, and all sites and apps should allow users to block > others. When Quora tells people to pick interests or topics they want, it > should also tell them to pick interests or topics they don't want." > > > > Unfortunately, I don't see any way that a wiki can work with the ability > to block "strangers" from messaging each other, or allowing individual > person-to-person blocks. Works great for message boards; doesn't work on a > wiki. Does it? > > > > > > Powers &8^] > > > > > > -Original Message- > *From:* Delphine Ménard [mailto:notafi...@gmail.com] > *Sent:* 22 June 2014 19:05 > *To:* gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > *Subject:* [Gendergap] A cautionary tale > > > Hello, > I found this: > http://www.zdnet.com/quoras-misogyny-problem-a-cautionary-tale-730762/ > an interesting read. > Cheers, > Delphine > > ___ Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > > ___ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > > ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
me time as Kross. My account, not deleted, just suspended where it has remained since August 2011, no explanation given and no indication as to if / when it will be reinstated - if they read this it will probably The film - 50 Shades of Grey is set to be released on Valentine's Day 2015, it is being made by Trigger Street Productions. Marie From: ltpowers_w...@rochester.rr.com To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 08:24:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale Wow. That's sobering. I'd like to think we don't have it that bad on WMF sites, but maybe we do? Then there's this: "Technical solutions abound when websites and apps provide options that take targeted users into consideration -- namely, giving us back our ability to make boundaries. For instance, sites shouldn't let strangers message strangers, and all sites and apps should allow users to block others. When Quora tells people to pick interests or topics they want, it should also tell them to pick interests or topics they don't want." Unfortunately, I don't see any way that a wiki can work with the ability to block "strangers" from messaging each other, or allowing individual person-to-person blocks. Works great for message boards; doesn't work on a wiki. Does it? Powers &8^] -Original Message- From: Delphine Ménard [mailto:notafi...@gmail.com] Sent: 22 June 2014 19:05 To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale Hello, I found this: http://www.zdnet.com/quoras-misogyny-problem-a-cautionary-tale-730762/ an interesting read. Cheers, Delphine ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
I agree with Ryan that the wiki etiquette board was not helpful in many situations largely because people who regularly patrol the board are often people formerly brought to the board with issues about civility. While the average editor stays away from this area. So often the discussions are less productive than the average discussion on Wikipedia. Sydney On Jun 23, 2014 2:19 PM, "Ryan Kaldari" wrote: > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Derric Atzrott < > datzr...@alizeepathology.com> wrote: > >> * bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to >> got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense >> >> Would support wholeheartedly. >> > The problem with Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance was the same as the > problem with AN/I. As soon as someone took a complaint to > Wikiquette_assistance people like Baseball Bugs would make fun of them for > being too sensitive and it would basically turn into forum for criticizing > the person who complained. No one at Wikiquette_assistance took complaints > seriously, so it just ended up making things more frustrating for the > person who was being harassed. > > If we want a forum that is more effective, I think we should adopt some of > the ideas from the Teahouse. Primarily, by having the responders be vetted > volunteers that are expected to provide a minimum level of helpfulness. All > the peanut gallery responders who are just there for the lulz should be > banned. > > Ryan Kaldari > > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Derric Atzrott < > datzr...@alizeepathology.com> wrote: > >> * bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to >> got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense >> >> Would support wholeheartedly. >> >> * take complaints about harassment in general more seriously >> >> Also would support wholeheartedly. >> >> * Have a "class action" Arbitration on Sexism/Double standards so that >> discretionary sanctions could be imposed on obvious incidents >> >> Strong support. >> >> * (new one) quota of 1/3 women admins and 1/3 women arbitrators (and >> other positions?) >> >> I’m not sure this would be enforceable, but I would highly support >> encouraging more women to take up these positions. The process for >> becoming an admin or arbitrator really needs some work as well. From what >> I understand becoming an admin is hellish. People dig through everything >> you’ve ever done and call you out on anything going all the way back to the >> beginning of time. It might not actually be that way, I’ve not really >> participated in them, but if it is, that is a problem and probably a big >> deterrent to a great deal of folks. >> >> * (new one) A GenderGap wikiproject on every wiki, since it can be >> troublesome having to go all the way to >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap to contact women about what to >> do with specific issues; (wikiprojects like feminism and gender and womens >> studies more article and policy related than recruitment and problem >> solving related) >> >> Would support. Given that many people don’t ever leave their homewiki, >> and a lot of new people probably don’t even know Meta exists, this could be >> highly beneficial. >> >> The archives probably have other early suggestions by women I've >> forgotten. Now a days the only alternatives seem to be doing studies, >> counting numbers, posting mainstream media articles about what Wikipedia is >> allegedly doing and links to problematic articles. >> >> Not enough to solve the problem. >> >> Studies are useful. This particular study shows promise I think: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Women_and_Wikipedia For >> allies these sorts of things help us understand what we are actually trying >> to accomplish and metrics are useful for determining if we’ve actually made >> any progress. It is hard to quantitatively measure a culture though. This >> sort of research also publicises the problem, which is something that there >> can never be enough of I think. >> >> Maybe it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas. If no >> one else does, I’d be happy to. >> >> Thank you, >> Derric Atzrott >> >> ___ >> Gendergap mailing list >> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> >> > > ___ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > > ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Derric Atzrott < datzr...@alizeepathology.com> wrote: > * bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to > got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense > > Would support wholeheartedly. > The problem with Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance was the same as the problem with AN/I. As soon as someone took a complaint to Wikiquette_assistance people like Baseball Bugs would make fun of them for being too sensitive and it would basically turn into forum for criticizing the person who complained. No one at Wikiquette_assistance took complaints seriously, so it just ended up making things more frustrating for the person who was being harassed. If we want a forum that is more effective, I think we should adopt some of the ideas from the Teahouse. Primarily, by having the responders be vetted volunteers that are expected to provide a minimum level of helpfulness. All the peanut gallery responders who are just there for the lulz should be banned. Ryan Kaldari On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Derric Atzrott < datzr...@alizeepathology.com> wrote: > * bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to > got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense > > Would support wholeheartedly. > > * take complaints about harassment in general more seriously > > Also would support wholeheartedly. > > * Have a "class action" Arbitration on Sexism/Double standards so that > discretionary sanctions could be imposed on obvious incidents > > Strong support. > > * (new one) quota of 1/3 women admins and 1/3 women arbitrators (and other > positions?) > > I’m not sure this would be enforceable, but I would highly support > encouraging more women to take up these positions. The process for > becoming an admin or arbitrator really needs some work as well. From what > I understand becoming an admin is hellish. People dig through everything > you’ve ever done and call you out on anything going all the way back to the > beginning of time. It might not actually be that way, I’ve not really > participated in them, but if it is, that is a problem and probably a big > deterrent to a great deal of folks. > > * (new one) A GenderGap wikiproject on every wiki, since it can be > troublesome having to go all the way to > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap to contact women about what to > do with specific issues; (wikiprojects like feminism and gender and womens > studies more article and policy related than recruitment and problem > solving related) > > Would support. Given that many people don’t ever leave their homewiki, > and a lot of new people probably don’t even know Meta exists, this could be > highly beneficial. > > The archives probably have other early suggestions by women I've > forgotten. Now a days the only alternatives seem to be doing studies, > counting numbers, posting mainstream media articles about what Wikipedia is > allegedly doing and links to problematic articles. > > Not enough to solve the problem. > > Studies are useful. This particular study shows promise I think: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Women_and_Wikipedia For allies > these sorts of things help us understand what we are actually trying to > accomplish and metrics are useful for determining if we’ve actually made > any progress. It is hard to quantitatively measure a culture though. This > sort of research also publicises the problem, which is something that there > can never be enough of I think. > > Maybe it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas. If no one > else does, I’d be happy to. > > Thank you, > Derric Atzrott > > ___ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > > ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
* bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense Would support wholeheartedly. * take complaints about harassment in general more seriously Also would support wholeheartedly. * Have a "class action" Arbitration on Sexism/Double standards so that discretionary sanctions could be imposed on obvious incidents Strong support. * (new one) quota of 1/3 women admins and 1/3 women arbitrators (and other positions?) I'm not sure this would be enforceable, but I would highly support encouraging more women to take up these positions. The process for becoming an admin or arbitrator really needs some work as well. From what I understand becoming an admin is hellish. People dig through everything you've ever done and call you out on anything going all the way back to the beginning of time. It might not actually be that way, I've not really participated in them, but if it is, that is a problem and probably a big deterrent to a great deal of folks. * (new one) A GenderGap wikiproject on every wiki, since it can be troublesome having to go all the way to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap to contact women about what to do with specific issues; (wikiprojects like feminism and gender and womens studies more article and policy related than recruitment and problem solving related) Would support. Given that many people don't ever leave their homewiki, and a lot of new people probably don't even know Meta exists, this could be highly beneficial. The archives probably have other early suggestions by women I've forgotten. Now a days the only alternatives seem to be doing studies, counting numbers, posting mainstream media articles about what Wikipedia is allegedly doing and links to problematic articles. Not enough to solve the problem. Studies are useful. This particular study shows promise I think: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Women_and_Wikipedia For allies these sorts of things help us understand what we are actually trying to accomplish and metrics are useful for determining if we've actually made any progress. It is hard to quantitatively measure a culture though. This sort of research also publicises the problem, which is something that there can never be enough of I think. Maybe it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas. If no one else does, I'd be happy to. Thank you, Derric Atzrott ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
> On the popular liberal/progressive website Daily Kos, the equivalent of > downvoting, “hide rec”’ing, is meant to be used only for really offensive or > out-of-line comments. Abusing that function, i.e., by constantly doing it to > the same user or similar opinions reasonably expressed, can lead to sanctions > against your account. I wonder if it might be worth it to try to envision a system that works somewhat like a combination of Daily Kos, Slashdot, and Stack Exchange. On Stack Exchange you don’t immediately start with the ability to up or down vote things, but gain the ability very quickly if you participate in discussions. I feel as though the reputation system of Stack Exchange, combined with the way that Slashdot shows comments, and the verbiage and mannerisms of Daily Kos, might allow for a pretty robust system. Thank you, Derric Atzrott ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
>Actually, I think there's something to be said for downvoting. Not in the >reddit "i disagree" sense, but in the slashdot/ >meta filter "comments >downvoted/flagged past a certain point will be hidden/deleted" sense. It would >obviously take a >lot of work to make that work within the media wiki software >*and* the Wikimedia ethos, but it would probably save >tons of grief and >derails if the worst of the worst comments were limited by crowdsourced review. On the popular liberal/progressive website Daily Kos, the equivalent of downvoting, “hide rec”’ing, is meant to be used only for really offensive or out-of-line comments. Abusing that function, i.e., by constantly doing it to the same user or similar opinions reasonably expressed, can lead to sanctions against your account. Daniel Case___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
On 6/23/2014 11:26 AM, Risker wrote: I The focus on technology here is very important. Right now, there is no way for Wikimedians to control from whom they receive "email this user" emails, or pings through the notification system. We know that both have been, and continue to be, vectors for harassment and trolling. There's never, to my knowledge, been any consideration given to including these features. We keep being told we're going to get this wonderful new communication system called "Flow" to replace talk pages. Features that allow users to control who posts to their "page", or even to let non-admin users remove individual threads or posts from their "stream", aren't included - and I'm not sure they're even under consideration. Sorry not to mention technological issues like you mention above. Mostly my own lack of knowledge. And they do sound helpful. It's annoying when you have to go to WP:ANI to get someone to stop posting their rants to your talk page despite 2 or 3 requests! (Guys do have to put up with it too, sometimes, of course.) ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
On 6/23/2014 11:45 AM, Derric Atzrott wrote: This comment to me comes off as exactly the opposite of the sort of thing that I would want to see on this list. We are here to cooperate on reducing the gender-gap and this means that we should all work civilly together to do so. Over the last two years I have made a number of constructive suggestions to increase female participation, a few are below, plus some new ones that occur as I write: * bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense * take complaints about harassment in general more seriously * Have a "class action" Arbitration on Sexism/Double standards so that discretionary sanctions could be imposed on obvious incidents * (new one) quota of 1/3 women admins and 1/3 women arbitrators (and other positions?) * (new one) A GenderGap wikiproject on every wiki, since it can be troublesome having to go all the way to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap to contact women about what to do with specific issues; (wikiprojects like feminism and gender and womens studies more article and policy related than recruitment and problem solving related) The archives probably have other early suggestions by women I've forgotten. Now a days the only alternatives seem to be doing studies, counting numbers, posting mainstream media articles about what Wikipedia is allegedly doing and links to problematic articles. Not enough to solve the problem. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
On 6/23/2014 12:56 PM, Katherine Casey wrote: Actually, I think there's something to be said for downvoting. Not in the reddit "i disagree" sense, but in the slashdot/ meta filter "comments downvoted/flagged past a certain point will be hidden/deleted" sense. It would obviously take a lot of work to make that work within the media wiki software *and* the Wikimedia ethos, but it would probably save tons of grief and derails if the worst of the worst comments were limited by crowdsourced review. There are definitely times it's needed. Maybe if there's some review process where a non-biased moderator can look and see if it's just an opinion that's unpopular or something really worth removing. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
Actually, I think there's something to be said for downvoting. Not in the reddit "i disagree" sense, but in the slashdot/ meta filter "comments downvoted/flagged past a certain point will be hidden/deleted" sense. It would obviously take a lot of work to make that work within the media wiki software *and* the Wikimedia ethos, but it would probably save tons of grief and derails if the worst of the worst comments were limited by crowdsourced review. On Jun 23, 2014 12:47 PM, "Daniel and Elizabeth Case" < danc...@frontiernet.net> wrote: > MediaWiki's mostly impersonal interaction helps a lot here. >> > > No image avatars, no upvoting or downvoting of comments (something I don't > see the utility of on either Reddit or Quora, FTM). Maybe the features are > what we *don't* have. > > Daniel Case > > ___ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Risker wrote: > The focus on technology here is very important. Right now, there is no > way for Wikimedians to control from whom they receive "email this user" > emails, or pings through the notification system. We know that both have > been, and continue to be, vectors for harassment and trolling. There's > never, to my knowledge, been any consideration given to including these > features. We keep being told we're going to get this wonderful new > communication system called "Flow" to replace talk pages. Features that > allow users to control who posts to their "page", or even to let non-admin > users remove individual threads or posts from their "stream", aren't > included - and I'm not sure they're even under consideration. > > > Risker > > This is an area where I'd really like to see Lila help out (is she subscribed to this list?). If there is some recognition at the top that the gender gap is one of the most important, fundamental problems facing the Wikimedia projects... Then addressing it should be built into literally every feature development process, including Flow. It should be tested against female user groups, scrutinized on whether it helps address the gender gap or not, and revamped to do so if its found it doesn't. Not to put too fine a point on it, but every feature that *doesn't* address the gender gap is a missed opportunity - Flow in particular. Not exacerbating the problem isn't enough. WMF has limited resources, and is unlikely to make massively iterative attempts at rolling out such a major feature. Since it's clear that communication and interaction are at the core of the gap, any new tool in this area must make at least some progress. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
MediaWiki's mostly impersonal interaction helps a lot here. No image avatars, no upvoting or downvoting of comments (something I don't see the utility of on either Reddit or Quora, FTM). Maybe the features are what we *don't* have. Daniel Case ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
ng frustrated and don't *trust* the medium. We need to encourage those voices to come up, so we can discuss them openly, and these issues often involve very personal experiences that are very bad. Let me try to explain my point using a different topic (and I do hope I don't offend anyone with it) As a Caucasian person, I will be very careful of what judgments and comments (and tone) I put in my responses when I participate in a discussion about racism, because I am very well aware that I don't really know what it's like to live with racism against me throughout my life. In that aspect, I am very privileged, and while I want to change things very much, I know *I* won't have answers until I allow the people who experience this to feel comfortable speaking up. It should be the same in a group discussing the gender gap. Participating is important, but the voices of the ones who go through the harassment and attacks should be allowed -- and encouraged -- to be the focus of the discussion, and we should make it a point to make sure we delve into what was actually said despite the tone. Moriel > > “The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot > less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the > rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. And > who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like > they need to constantly defend the ‘reasons’ for their experiences and > feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual > experience.” > > > > Agreed. Also, for the record, Violet Blue is a great writer in my opinion. > > > > Thank you, > > Derric Atzrott > > > > *From:* gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: > gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Moriel Schottlender > *Sent:* 23 June 2014 11:23 > *To:* Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the > participation of women within Wikimedia projects. > *Subject:* Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale > > > > Did this really just happen? > > > > Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not > participating as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle > suggestion of the cause being that they didn't feel this group is > completely woman-friendly -- and your response was to "remind us" what the > point of this group is about? Did I misunderstand your email? > > > > We're all here for the same goal, but some of us experience this problem > differently than others, and some appear to have gone frustrated and > annoyed and are not participating as much as they used to. That's a > problem. That's not something we should ignore. And we should figure out > why it happens (because it seemed to have happened to more than just two > arguing women) and how to make sure it is getting better. > > > > Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at least in this > mailing list, to make things a tad better for women to participate in: > > > > In a group about the gender gap, men should attempt to take a step back. > > That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. > But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so > unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should > take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound > like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or > generalizations. > > > > The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot > less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the > rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. > > > > And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel > like they need to constantly defend the "reasons" for their experiences and > feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual > experience. > > > > > > Moriel > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Derric Atzrott < > datzr...@alizeepathology.com> wrote: > > >> Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: > >> A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email > >> list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started > >> hassling them about it. > >> SURPRISE!! > > > > By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading > > this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal > women. > > > > Nemo > > Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
ng at each > other, which is what I felt was about to happen. I was trying to diffuse a > situation that in my mind could have gotten out of hand. It appears > instead I just managed to bugger things up, for which I apologise. > > > > “That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. > But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so > unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should > take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound > like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or > generalizations.” > > > > I hope this email doesn’t fall into that sort of category. My original > email was intentionally non-confrontational, or at least that was my > intention. I may have done a poor job at the execution. > > > > “The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot > less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the > rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. And > who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like > they need to constantly defend the ‘reasons’ for their experiences and > feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual > experience.” > > > > Agreed. Also, for the record, Violet Blue is a great writer in my opinion. > > > > Thank you, > > Derric Atzrott > > > > *From:* gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: > gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Moriel Schottlender > *Sent:* 23 June 2014 11:23 > *To:* Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the > participation of women within Wikimedia projects. > *Subject:* Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale > > > > Did this really just happen? > > > > Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not > participating as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle > suggestion of the cause being that they didn't feel this group is > completely woman-friendly -- and your response was to "remind us" what the > point of this group is about? Did I misunderstand your email? > > > > We're all here for the same goal, but some of us experience this problem > differently than others, and some appear to have gone frustrated and > annoyed and are not participating as much as they used to. That's a > problem. That's not something we should ignore. And we should figure out > why it happens (because it seemed to have happened to more than just two > arguing women) and how to make sure it is getting better. > > > > Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at least in this > mailing list, to make things a tad better for women to participate in: > > > > In a group about the gender gap, men should attempt to take a step back. > > That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. > But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so > unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should > take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound > like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or > generalizations. > > > > The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot > less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the > rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. > > > > And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel > like they need to constantly defend the "reasons" for their experiences and > feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual > experience. > > > > > > Moriel > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Derric Atzrott < > datzr...@alizeepathology.com> wrote: > > >> Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: > >> A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email > >> list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started > >> hassling them about it. > >> SURPRISE!! > > > > By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading > > this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal > women. > > > > Nemo > > Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this > discussion is > going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all > here? > > From the Mailing list signup page: > "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways t
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
Moriel, I meant no offense. My reason for posting that email was that I was feeling uncomfortable with the direction that the discussion was going. I intentionally left my email non-specific in an attempt to prevent offense to anyone. I think you may have misunderstood me. “A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!” This comment to me comes off as exactly the opposite of the sort of thing that I would want to see on this list. We are here to cooperate on reducing the gender-gap and this means that we should all work civilly together to do so. This comment to me sounds very similar to some of the common things that I see men say towards or around women. I can understand the frustration that might be being felt in that comment. I would love to see more outspokenness myself even. The topic of the gender gap and the way that women are treated online, in person, and on Wikimedia is a real problem that a lot of people try to push under the rug. I think that the majority of the men on this list though are here because we recognise it is an issue and would like to do something about it. I felt that the comment was worded in such a way that it alienated the people like myself who are completely disturbed by the gender gap problem and are trying very hard to try to understand and work on fixing it. To put it another way: “but that stopped after a bunch of women joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!” wouldn’t be appropriate on-wiki, and I don’t think that this comment was appropriate here. “By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal women.” This comment also creates a hostile environment that I don’t think is conducive to unsurprisingly is not conducive to resolving the hostile environment problem. This reply reminded me of how shouting matches begin. The thread is not an argument about which gender on-list makes the place the most hostile. This comment made me just as uncomfortable as the one made before it. My intention was to remind everyone that this is a list for discussion of the gender gap and ways to fix it. It is not a list for shouting at each other, which is what I felt was about to happen. I was trying to diffuse a situation that in my mind could have gotten out of hand. It appears instead I just managed to bugger things up, for which I apologise. “That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or generalizations.” I hope this email doesn’t fall into that sort of category. My original email was intentionally non-confrontational, or at least that was my intention. I may have done a poor job at the execution. “The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like they need to constantly defend the ‘reasons’ for their experiences and feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual experience.” Agreed. Also, for the record, Violet Blue is a great writer in my opinion. Thank you, Derric Atzrott From: gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Moriel Schottlender Sent: 23 June 2014 11:23 To: Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects. Subject: Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale Did this really just happen? Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not participating as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle suggestion of the cause being that they didn't feel this group is completely woman-friendly -- and your response was to "remind us" what the point of this group is about? Did I misunderstand your email? We're all here for the same goal, but some of us experience this problem differently than others, and some appear to have gone frustrated and annoyed and are not participating as much as they used to. That's a problem. That's not something we should ignore. And we should figure out why it happens (because it seemed to have happened to more than just two arguing women) and how to make sure it is getting better. Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
I'm sorry Derric, but I think the topic of this thread is the notion that many men, including those in administrator roles (e.g. list moderators) simply don't even recognize misogyny, and don't recognize the importance of providing systems by which women (and others, for that matter) can easily limit the ability of people who have caused them problems from continuing to communicate with them. The focus on technology here is very important. Right now, there is no way for Wikimedians to control from whom they receive "email this user" emails, or pings through the notification system. We know that both have been, and continue to be, vectors for harassment and trolling. There's never, to my knowledge, been any consideration given to including these features. We keep being told we're going to get this wonderful new communication system called "Flow" to replace talk pages. Features that allow users to control who posts to their "page", or even to let non-admin users remove individual threads or posts from their "stream", aren't included - and I'm not sure they're even under consideration. And I'm going to be honest - I've seen more people blocked for "homophobic" comments than "misogynistic" ones. Nemo, your "Hm, we've discussed that author before... oh well." is really unhelpful and dismissive - and is pretty much exactly the kind of statement that Violet Blue is talking about in her article. It comes across as "She wrote something I didn't agree with in the past, so there's no reason to ever pay attention to her again". I am really hoping you didn't intend that. And Carol has a point. There are now more men posting to this thread than there are women. And most of you have missed the point entirely. Heaven help us from those who see themselves as our saviours. Risker On 23 June 2014 09:57, Derric Atzrott wrote: > >> Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: > >> A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email > >> list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started > >> hassling them about it. > >> SURPRISE!! > > > > By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading > > this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal > women. > > > > Nemo > > Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this > discussion is > going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all > here? > > From the Mailing list signup page: > "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation > of > women within Wikimedia projects. > > Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in > Wikipedia > and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is > provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to > collectively > address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are focused > on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a > starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of > women > and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, > Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage > you > to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this > regard matter to us and to the community." > > Thank you, > Derric Atzrott > > > ___ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
Did this really just happen? Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not participating as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle suggestion of the cause being that they didn't feel this group is completely woman-friendly -- and your response was to "remind us" what the point of this group is about? Did I misunderstand your email? We're all here for the same goal, but some of us experience this problem differently than others, and some appear to have gone frustrated and annoyed and are not participating as much as they used to. That's a problem. That's not something we should ignore. And we should figure out why it happens (because it seemed to have happened to more than just two arguing women) and how to make sure it is getting better. Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at least in this mailing list, to make things a tad better for women to participate in: In a group about the gender gap, men should attempt to take a step back. That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or generalizations. The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like they need to constantly defend the "reasons" for their experiences and feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual experience. Moriel On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Derric Atzrott < datzr...@alizeepathology.com> wrote: > >> Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: > >> A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email > >> list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started > >> hassling them about it. > >> SURPRISE!! > > > > By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading > > this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal > women. > > > > Nemo > > Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this > discussion is > going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all > here? > > From the Mailing list signup page: > "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation > of > women within Wikimedia projects. > > Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in > Wikipedia > and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is > provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to > collectively > address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are focused > on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a > starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of > women > and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, > Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage > you > to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this > regard matter to us and to the community." > > Thank you, > Derric Atzrott > > > ___ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > -- No trees were harmed in the creation of this post. But billions of electrons, photons, and electromagnetic waves were terribly inconvenienced during its transmission! ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
>> Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: >> A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email >> list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started >> hassling them about it. >> SURPRISE!! > > By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading > this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal women. > > Nemo Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this discussion is going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all here? From the Mailing list signup page: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects. Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in Wikipedia and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to collectively address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are focused on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of women and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage you to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this regard matter to us and to the community." Thank you, Derric Atzrott ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
Hm, we've discussed that author before... oh well. What I found that could be of use for us: «giving us back our ability to make boundaries [...] shouldn't let strangers message strangers, and all sites and apps should allow users to block others. [...] A block should be across all site functions». I think we're already ok in that regard. «Most guys don't think about being sized up for sexual value as the first thing anyone judges about them everywhere they go» is an argument that always makes me think but it's at least hetero-centric (on Wikimedia projects the balance might be on the opposite side, who knows). MediaWiki's mostly impersonal interaction helps a lot here. Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!! By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal women. Nemo ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
Wow. That's sobering. I'd like to think we don't have it that bad on WMF sites, but maybe we do? Then there's this: "Technical solutions abound when websites and apps provide options that take targeted users into consideration -- namely, giving us back our ability to make boundaries. For instance, sites shouldn't let strangers message strangers, and all sites and apps should allow users to block others. When Quora tells people to pick interests or topics they want, it should also tell them to pick interests or topics they don't want." Unfortunately, I don't see any way that a wiki can work with the ability to block "strangers" from messaging each other, or allowing individual person-to-person blocks. Works great for message boards; doesn't work on a wiki. Does it? Powers &8^] -Original Message- From: Delphine Ménard [mailto:notafi...@gmail.com] Sent: 22 June 2014 19:05 To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale Hello, I found this: http://www.zdnet.com/quoras-misogyny-problem-a-cautionary-tale-730762/ an interesting read. Cheers, Delphine ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
On 6/22/2014 7:04 PM, Delphine Ménard wrote: Hello, I found this: http://www.zdnet.com/quoras-misogyny-problem-a-cautionary-tale-730762/ an interesting read. Cheers, Delphine Thanks for this. I wasn't even aware of this site. There goes the theory that making editors register with their real names - or at least having to give them to admins should they act up obnoxiously - might solve the problem. Quote from articles: " Sites that care can educate their admins and mods about online harassment, on detecting racist and sexist language, on conflict resolution and conflict diffusion, target and non-target status, and backhanded attacks (aka "poisoning the well")." That WOULD be a real good start. But women have to demand it. It's really all about the willingness to raise a fuss. Some small groupings in wikipeida do it and thereby not only have bad actions/words/ideas removed post haste, but enjoy undue tolerance for their making exaggerated or trumped up claims of bigotry in order to get their way in articles with only occasional consequences. However, hint that there's something called "sexism" involved in various situations and one is ignored, scorned for making false charges, or told they just can't handle it or are obnoxious and should just leave Wikipedia. A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!! Can you hear a pin dropping? CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
