Re: Mentor capactity of the incubator

[Gunnar Tapper]

I don't know if I have the status to help but the will is there.


Thanks,
Gunnar
 Original message From: Justin Mclean 
 Date: 9/16/18  2:18 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: 
general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Mentor capactity of the incubator 
Hi,

We have a large number of IPMC members (280+). I wondering if any IPMC members 
could indicate if they have any capacity/free cycles and a willingness for 
mentoring projects. It looks like we are going to have a number of inactive 
mentors step down in the near future and we may end up with some podlings only 
having one or two mentors. Three mentors seems to the the number that works 
best.

Of course I understand it may have to be the right sort of project, but I’m 
just trying the gauge the current mentor capacity of the incubator, so if you 
think you could be a mentor if the right project came along then please 
indicate it here.

For IPMC members who are unable to be a mentor I’m curious to know what the 
reasons are, I’m sure that “not having the time" is probably the number one 
reason, but are is there any thing else stopping member (in particular first 
time ones) from coming forward and volunteering?

The mentor capacity we have may in the future have an impact on if and how 
often we accept new podlings. I'd hate to turn away podlings, but if we can’t 
effectively mentor them I’m not sure what else we can do. anyone have any ideas?

For myself currently I could only realistically mentor one more project.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Poddlings length of time in the incubator

[Gunnar Tapper]

Hi,

What's the main cause of a lengthy incubation period? Possibilities:


   1. Not understanding the Apache processes? This is teachable in most
   cases. Shouldn't take two years in most cases, especially if mentors guide
   the project through the release process.
   2. Contributors joining the project? Perhaps a bit of a "fashion issue"
   where people join the perceived cool projects. The hardest part here is to
   ensure independence from a single company.

Gut feel, I suspect that #2 is a lot harder than #1. It'd be interesting to
analyze contribution growth for the project that sit/sat in incubation for
a long time and then ask whether contribution growth is possible and
whether it's the only obstacle to graduation.

Stated in a different way: if there's little interest in a project's
technology but it does everything it can to attract contributors, then is
popularity a measure of whether a project is ready for graduation?

Thanks,

Gunnar

   1. Something else?


On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 8:18 AM Pierre Smits  wrote:

> I believe this kind of questioning will lead nowhere. Before a proposal for
> incubation is being accepted any statement made regarding this will be like
> wishful thinking or (explicitly) vague,  and after acceptance the reports
> will be more indicative about progress (and therefore making a given
> initial indication null and void) of community growth and adherence to ASF
> guidelines, policies and standards.
>
>
>
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM 
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OEM - The OFBiz Extensions Marketplace1
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> 1 not affiliated to (and not endorsed by) the OFBiz project
>
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 12:30 AM, Justin Mclean 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > > FWIW, for the DLab proposal [1], we added a voluntary incubation period
> > max of 2 years, essentially saying we didn’t want to become a resource
> > drain. I haven’t checked to see if any other projects have done this.
> >
> > Nice idea. I think we shovel add to the template “How long do you think
> > you'll spend in incubation” to the proposal template - what do others
> > think? At least they sets some expectations even if it’s not binding.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Justin
>


-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [VOTE] Graduate the Apache Trafodion Project from Incubator to a TLP

[Gunnar Tapper]

tribution at no charge to the public,
> >
> > related to a webscale SQL-on-Hadoop solution enabling transactional or
> >
> > operational workloads.
> >
> >
> > NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management Committee
> >
> > (PMC), to be known as the "Apache Trafodion Project", be and hereby is
> >
> > established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it further
> >
> >
> > RESOLVED, that the Apache Trafodion Project be and hereby is responsible
> >
> > for the creation and maintenance of software related to a webscale
> >
> > SQL-on-Hadoop solution enabling transactional or operational workloads;
> >
> > and be it further
> >
> >
> > RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Apache Trafodion" be and
> >
> > hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at the
> >
> > direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the Apache Trafodion
> >
> > Project, and to have primary responsibility for management of the
> >
> > projects within the scope of responsibility of the Apache Trafodion
> >
> > Project; and be it further
> >
> >
> > RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and hereby are
> >
> > appointed to serve as the initial members of the Apache Trafodion
> >
> > Project:
> >
> >
> >  * Amanda K Moran <ama...@apache.org>
> >
> >  * Dave Birdsall  <dbirds...@apache.org>
> >
> >  * Gunnar Tapper  <gtap...@apache.org>
> >
> >  * Ming Liu   <lium...@apache.org>
> >
> >  * Pierre Smits   <pierresm...@apache.org>
> >
> >  * Roberta Marton <rmar...@apache.org>
> >
> >  * Selva Govindarajan <se...@apache.org>
> >
> >  * Steve Varnau   <svar...@apache.org>
> >
> >  * Suresh Subbiah <sure...@apache.org>
> >
> >
> > NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Pierre Smits be appointed
> >
> > to the office of Vice President, Apache Trafodion, to serve in
> >
> > accordance with and subject to the direction of the Board of Directors
> >
> > and the Bylaws of the Foundation until death, resignation, retirement,
> >
> > removal or disqualification, or until a successor is appointed; and be
> >
> > it further
> >
> >
> > RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Trafodion PMC be and hereby is tasked
> >
> > with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open
> >
> > development and increased participation in the Apache Trafodion Project;
> >
> > and be it further
> >
> >
> > RESOLVED, that the Apache Trafodion Project be and hereby is tasked with
> >
> > the migration and rationalization of the Apache Incubator Trafodion
> >
> > podling; and be it further
> >
> >
> > RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache Incubator
> >
> > Trafodion podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator PMC are hereafter
> >
> > discharged.
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
> >
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] Resolution to graduate the incubating Apache Trafodion Project

[Gunnar Tapper]

+1 (non-binding)

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 3:32 PM, Pierre Smits <pierre.sm...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The community of the incubating Apache Trafodion Project has discussed and
> voted on graduating from incubating. Following instructions from the
> graduation guide, this thread is for discussion.
>
> The thread of the community discussion can be found here: [DISCUSSION]
> Graduation of The (incubating) Apache Trafodion Project
> <https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/8e00251a72a5e3f667fbcfc319c021
> 3ad86ff21839e98e0ae68520e3@%3Cdev.trafodion.apache.org%3E>
>
> The thread of the community vote can be found here: [VOTE] Graduate from
> Incubator and become a top-level project
> <https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/86fc81f780840d5392b161572281f8
> 03a1585d398d7820b26be9a255@%3Cdev.trafodion.apache.org%3E>
> ,
> and the call of the result here: [RESULT][VOTE] Graduate from Incubator and
> become a top-level project
> <https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/9438b5d92667e7c4a2a58356bcd912
> 56302cf98fe212909fefb8e76f@%3Cdev.trafodion.apache.org%3E>
>
>
> *The proposed resolution of the (incubating) Apache Trafodion Project:*
>
> Establish the Apache Trafodion Project
>
> WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best interests of
> the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's purpose to establish
> a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance
> of open-source software, for distribution at no charge to the public,
> related to Apache Trafodion is a webscale SQL-on-Hadoop solution
> enabling transactional or operational workloads on Hadoop. Trafodion
> builds on the scalability, elasticity, and flexibility of Hadoop.
> Trafodion extends Hadoop to provide guaranteed transactional integrity,
> enabling new kinds of big data applications to run on Hadoop.
>
> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management Committee
> (PMC), to be known as the "Apache Trafodion Project", be and hereby is
> established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that the Apache Trafodion Project be and hereby is responsible
> for the creation and maintenance of software related to Apache Trafodion
> is a webscale SQL-on-Hadoop solution enabling transactional or
> operational workloads on Hadoop. Trafodion builds on the scalability,
> elasticity, and flexibility of Hadoop. Trafodion extends Hadoop to
> provide guaranteed transactional integrity, enabling new kinds of big
> data applications to run on Hadoop; and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Apache Trafodion" be and
> hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at the
> direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the Apache Trafodion
> Project, and to have primary responsibility for management of the
> projects within the scope of responsibility of the Apache Trafodion
> Project; and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and hereby are
> appointed to serve as the initial members of the Apache Trafodion
> Project:
>
>  * Amanda K Moran <ama...@apache.org>
>  * Dave Birdsall  <dbirds...@apache.org>
>  * Gunnar Tapper  <gtap...@apache.org>
>  * Ming Liu   <lium...@apache.org>
>  * Pierre Smits   <pierresm...@apache.org>
>  * Roberta Marton <rmar...@apache.org>
>  * Selva Govindarajan <se...@apache.org>
>  * Steve Varnau   <svar...@apache.org>
>  * Suresh Subbiah <sure...@apache.org>
>
> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Pierre Smits be appointed
> to the office of Vice President, Apache Trafodion, to serve in
> accordance with and subject to the direction of the Board of Directors
> and the Bylaws of the Foundation until death, resignation, retirement,
> removal or disqualification, or until a successor is appointed; and be
> it further
>
> RESOLVED, that the Apache Trafodion Project be and hereby is tasked with
> the migration and rationalization of the Apache Incubator Trafodion
> podling; and be it further
>
> RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache Incubator
> Trafodion podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator PMC are hereafter
> discharged.
>
>
>
> Please provide your feedback on this proposed graduation resolution by the
> Trafodion community below. We are hoping to reach a consensus here before
> we start a recommendation vote.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OEM - The OFBiz Extensions Marketplace1
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> 1 not affiliated to (and not endorsed by) the OFBiz project
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: Affiliation vs. individual

[Gunnar Tapper]

Hi Dave:

I think this situation is covered in paragraph 4 of the ICLA:
https://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.pdf

This doesn't mean that the individual or the company necessary want the
company name involved. I don't know if it's a large problem but it's a bit
of a contradiction to operate as an individual just to involve your
employer in some of the ASF processes.

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Dave Birdsall <dave.birds...@esgyn.com>
wrote:

> Hi Gunnar,
>
> Just a question: Many employers in their employment contracts specify that
> any software work done by employees, even off hours, is the property of the
> company. I'm wondering if such situations place a requirement on a private
> donor to clear outside contributions with their employer?
>
> Dave
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gunnar Tapper [mailto:tapper.gun...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 11:07 AM
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Affiliation vs. individual
>
> Hi,
>
> I've discussed this with a few individuals but would like to raise the
> discussion with a larger group.
>
> Situation
>
> As contributors to the ASF, we represents ourselves as individuals. Some
> of us contribute to projects as part of our employment, some of us donate
> our time privately.
>
> Discussion
>
> You the individual is asked to share your employer when going through
> processes such as graduation. I get the reason: to ensure diversity in the
> project.
>
> However, some of us are donating our private time and may therefore want
> to represent ourselves as a private donor rather than involve our employeer
> in the discussion.
>
> [Disclosure: I work for a company that is unlikely to have an issue with
> my involvement with ASF projects outside what my company cares for.]
>
> Proposal
>
> Anyone that chooses to do so can use "private donation" instead of the
> employer when representing affiliation.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Affiliation vs. individual

[Gunnar Tapper]

Hi,

I've discussed this with a few individuals but would like to raise the
discussion with a larger group.

Situation

As contributors to the ASF, we represents ourselves as individuals. Some of
us contribute to projects as part of our employment, some of us donate our
time privately.

Discussion

You the individual is asked to share your employer when going through
processes such as graduation. I get the reason: to ensure diversity in the
project.

However, some of us are donating our private time and may therefore want to
represent ourselves as a private donor rather than involve our employeer in
the discussion.

[Disclosure: I work for a company that is unlikely to have an issue with my
involvement with ASF projects outside what my company cares for.]

Proposal

Anyone that chooses to do so can use "private donation" instead of the
employer when representing affiliation.

Thoughts?

-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] Documentation

[Gunnar Tapper]

Hi Jonathon,

Thanks for the great information! I'll definitely look into supporting ePub
and Mobi formats as well as thinking through if the process can be
improved.

As for multi-book, I fell in love with it back when using FrameMaker. A
word processor supporting emacs commands can never be wrong. :)

Thanks,

Gunnar



On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 12:45 PM, toki <toki.kant...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/11/2016 04:09, Gunnar Tapper wrote:
>
> > For documentation, I couldn't find an easy way to do multi-chapter books,
>
> If AOo is meant, use Master Documents.
> There are a couple of use cases  (^1 ), where Master Documents don't
> work. In those instances, virtually every solution will fail. (^2)
>
> > but I also have people that prefer to review/read documents on
> Kindle-style devices. PDF helps with that.
>
> Most eBook readers, and smart phones do not handle PDFs very well. For
> those, either ePub or Mobi work much better.
>
> > But overall, my main motivation is to get others to write:
>
> Writing good documentation is a long, arduous process. It involves
> explaining the various options, including when and how to use them.
> Options that the individual writing the documentation might not be aware
> of.
>
> Taking a trivial example:
> * Export PDF;
> * Export as PDF;
> * Print (to PDF);
> * Print (as PDF);
> * Send Email as PDF;
> Five options, each of which creates a slightly different PDF.
> Easy to explain, with blatantly obvious differences.
>
> For a slightly harder example to explain, look at ligatures in English,
> using the Latin Writing System. Yes, it works, but the results are much
> better when both CTL and Asian text support is turned on.
>
> For something that is not only not obvious, but incredibly difficult to
> track down, the presence or absence of metadata in the fonts that are
> used, affects whether or not AOo utilizes the font correctly. (That you
> paid US$10,000 for the typeface, does not mean that the metadata is
> either present, or accurate. Nor does the fact that the typeface was
> gratis, mean that the metadata is either absent, or inaccurate.)
>
> > make it easy to do the right thing.
>
> This is where a defined work flow process is vital.
>
> For various reasons, the workflow used back when Sun was running OOo,
> weren't acceptable here (Apache Foundation running AOo).
>
> So what happens is that would-be documentation creators sink, due to a
> lack of either clear guidelines, or a pre-defined workflow process.
>
>
> ^1: The most commonly encountered such use case, is when different
> audiences have to get different content, but that content differs by
> anything between a word, to three or four paragraphs.
>
> ^2: For the most commonly encountered use case, LeanPub offers the only
> easy to implement solution that works. The issue with that solution, is
> that one's content is no longer confidential, which is the usual reason
> for having slightly different content for different audiences.
>
> jonathon
>
>


-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper]

Hi Jeff,

I guess you misunderstood what I am raising for discussion. I'm not arguing
against e-mail lists. I prefer them or we'd not have this discussion,
right? As a matter of fact, my projects at my previous employer adopted an
"everything happens on e-mail" to deal with timezone differences and hive
mind building. So, no need to convince me on the benefit of the technology
and why.

What I AM pointing to is that I'm experiencing groups that aren't
comfortable with interacting using e-mail quoting language and slowness as
barriers. Let's accept that as a fact for the sake of discussion. Do we
ignore that class of community because they're not operating the right way
or do we find ways to interact/lower barriers/whatever makes sense?

Again, this is a generic discussion, not a project-specific discussion.

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@apache.org> wrote:

>
> > On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the mailing
> lists." As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to learn
> how to operate per the Apache Way and to build communities. We even include
> statistics about mailing list engagement as an indicator of community
> building.
> >
>
> Gunnar, I’m going to give you a big -1 to this.
>
> Unless you can come up with a better global way to A) communicate across a
> medium that everyone uses daily B) archive to search and come back to, I am
> in full disagreement.  Since I have been with Apache (about 14 years), I
> have yet to find a better medium than the lists, and its always been a
> known fact that ultimately, any non-mail list discussions that result in
> some form of a decision are brought to the mail lists for global discussion.
>
> Our mail lists are indexed by Google and others.  Its easy to find what
> one looks for.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> > The struggle I'm referring is that we're seeing a reluctance to
> participate in the main Apache communication methods: email. Clearly, we
> can try to get statistics from the different forums you and I have
> mentioned but that's really just collecting data points.
> >
> > How can you help? Well, how to we get more people from China (or other
> companies) to engage with the mailing lists or vice versa? I'm imagining
> jumping on the QQ group and must admit to be very apprehensive on doing so.
> It's not an easy thing to get over.
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 7:16 AM, Luke Han <luke...@gmail.com  luke...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > Hi Gunnar,
> >
> > > Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when
> there's
> > > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > > invisible to the rest of us.
> >
> >  I think maybe I'm not bring message so clearly, let me try again:
> >  Such account is not a GROUP, it's something like twitter account
> which
> > has 20k followers where the author sharing experiences, samples and
> > anything else...to help to educate users, help to grow up local
> > communities. I have to say, such account helped a lot for ASF projects'
> > adoption in China. Back to QQ group, something like Google Group which
> > everybody could create in seconds.
> >
> >  Is that Trafodion QQ group created and managed by Trafodion PMC or
> > someone else? Did your PMCs make decision over there, or just users who
> > asking questions over there? If "it's invisible to the rest of us" means
> > decision has been made by your PMCs in QQ group but not in mailing
> > list...that's really problem and you have to raise to PPMC/IPMC.
> >
> >  But if it's about user group, there are many local communities
> > everywhere for sure using different languages, in Chinese, in Spanish, in
> > Japanese...could we know everything from there? For example, did Hadoop
> > report include activities from Hortonworks/Cloudera hosted forum, twitter
> > accounts or Facebook pages "like" number or any other online
> forums/groups?
> > They are really user communities too.
> >
> >   I just shared my experience with you in last reply about how we
> > handle that...hope it could help you to understand what you could do. And
> > also brought some facts how user communities formed, operated and what we
> > have did. And brought some data from different Apache projects, obviously
> > it's not "an Apache-wide issue that needs to be addressed".
> >
> >   I'

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper]

Hi Luke,

I'm sorry you feel that it was inappropriate to start a discussion about
expanded community building in reaction the the RocketMQ proposal,
especially since my intent was to help the proposed incubator based on what
I've seen with the Trafodion project, which has a strong Chinese
contribution.

As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the mailing
lists." As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to learn
how to operate per the Apache Way and to build communities. We even include
statistics about mailing list engagement as an indicator of community
building.

The struggle I'm referring is that we're seeing a reluctance to participate
in the main Apache communication methods: email. Clearly, we can try to get
statistics from the different forums you and I have mentioned but that's
really just collecting data points.

How can you help? Well, how to we get more people from China (or other
companies) to engage with the mailing lists or vice versa? I'm imagining
jumping on the QQ group and must admit to be very apprehensive on doing so.
It's not an easy thing to get over.

Gunnar

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 7:16 AM, Luke Han <luke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Gunnar,
>
> > Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when
> there's
> > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > invisible to the rest of us.
>
>  I think maybe I'm not bring message so clearly, let me try again:
>  Such account is not a GROUP, it's something like twitter account which
> has 20k followers where the author sharing experiences, samples and
> anything else...to help to educate users, help to grow up local
> communities. I have to say, such account helped a lot for ASF projects'
> adoption in China. Back to QQ group, something like Google Group which
> everybody could create in seconds.
>
>  Is that Trafodion QQ group created and managed by Trafodion PMC or
> someone else? Did your PMCs make decision over there, or just users who
> asking questions over there? If "it's invisible to the rest of us" means
> decision has been made by your PMCs in QQ group but not in mailing
> list...that's really problem and you have to raise to PPMC/IPMC.
>
>  But if it's about user group, there are many local communities
> everywhere for sure using different languages, in Chinese, in Spanish, in
> Japanese...could we know everything from there? For example, did Hadoop
> report include activities from Hortonworks/Cloudera hosted forum, twitter
> accounts or Facebook pages "like" number or any other online forums/groups?
> They are really user communities too.
>
>   I just shared my experience with you in last reply about how we
> handle that...hope it could help you to understand what you could do. And
> also brought some facts how user communities formed, operated and what we
> have did. And brought some data from different Apache projects, obviously
> it's not "an Apache-wide issue that needs to be addressed".
>
>   I'm not argue with you about "Which language is better" or "mailing
> list vs QQ/Google Group", I just want to help you to figure the root cause
> of your original "struggle" problem.
>
>   But I'm not very agree with you raised such discussion after a new
> incubator project proposal (and just changed the subject name)...looks like
> we are really not friendly to new comers especially from a different, non
> native English speaking (actually most of talent engineers are well
> educated with English in China) and different culture world...the team is
> so "scary" and asked us many times like "will they cancel the vote? do they
> really welcome our project?..." when they saw this thread?
>
>   And, let's focus on your really issue, maybe we could help you:)
>
>   Thanks.
>
> Luke
>
>
>
> Best Regards!
> -
>
> Luke Han
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Luke:
> >
> > This question was originally asked on the incubator list. The members
> list
> > was added somewhere on the line.
> >
> > Part of the incubator challenge is to show community growth. In the
> past, a
> > good metric seems to have been to check interaction on the mailing lists;
> > for example, on the user list.
> >
> > As you note, China changes this equation forming communities on QQ,
> WeChat,
> > and other places I'm probably not aware of. This means that there can be
> a
> > thriving user community that the PMC may or may not be awa

Re: [DISCUSS] Documentation

[Gunnar Tapper]

Hi Stain,

I used different wiki technologies for documentation in a previous project.
One of the large blockers was that it was very hard to deal with versioned
documentation, especially when dealing with many different manuals. To me,
wikis work well for documentation targetted to developers that are on the
bleeding edge and simply need the latest. They don't work well for end
users that live a few releases back. (I do wish Confluence would allow raw
edit mode and WYSIWYG as it did in the past.)

I wrote the webpage in markdown because it supports raw HTML -- much better
for table handling. But, I would really have preferred to use Wordpress
since it's just superior for managing web pages... couldn't figure out how
to do that though.

For documentation, I couldn't find an easy way to do multi-chapter books,
which is why asciidoc was chosen. This is important when you have reference
manuals that hit 600-700 pages or so. Intra-document link handling gets
tricky too at that size, too.

Table handling is quite tricky in asciidoc too, especially because the PDF
converter didn't/doesn't support a lot of the different cell formats. (I
haven't looked lately.) Like you, I do like the end result with a web page
but I also have people that prefer to review/read documents on Kindle-style
devices. PDF helps with that.

But overall, my main motivation is to get others to write: make it easy to
do the right thing.

The project seems to have operated under the assumption that you can't use
tools as AOO. This discussion has helped correct that misunderstanding.
Now, we can decide on what's best moving forward.

Thanks for your help,

Gunnar

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Stian Soiland-Reyes <st...@apache.org>
wrote:

> I guess primarily the answer is that your project should discuss this and
> use whatever they are comfortable with; the incubator is not forcing any
> technology. I would say that you should avoid proprietary formats (e.g.
> .docx) so that anyone can contribute.
>
> I think for developers Markdown (which is similar to AsciiDoc) edited in
> git is reasonable simple to get into, as you can generally just write text
> and then augment with !ore advanced syntax.
>
> Pull Requests via GitHub is then quite easy as the web editor has previews.
> Local editors like Atom also have live previews.
>
> The fact that it is not WYSIWYG makes it much harder to deviate from the
> common style, while a WYSIWYG-editor to me has too much freedom, documents
> would easily have all kinds of fonts and styles dancing about as different
> users edit it, unless you impose strict usage of the Heading levels etc
> rather than hitting the Bold and font size buttons.
>
> But it is obviously a barrier for non-developers to contribute, although it
> can be used by example.
>
> Like AsciiDoc, Markdown is a textual format so it is very git friendly,
> unlike the Zip archives from OO which would just give you a generic binary
> merge conflict; you would then solve it using Document Compare which is
> possible in OO, but much smoother in Microsoft Word.
>
> Apologies to OO devs, but using OpenOffice for documentation sounds to me
> like yesterday's approach, where the end target is a static PDF to print
> with blurry screenshots (shrunk to fit on A4), rather than a series of
> hyperlinked web-pages that can be continually updated and improved.
>
> So to me a wiki is often a good sweet spot for documentation, allowing
> easier editing and encouraged hyperlinked and use of images and associated
> example files. At ASF we have a Confluence install at
> https://cwiki.apache.org/ which I think has a fairly good WYSIWYG editor
> with sufficient freedoms and guidance; and the fact that it allows
> structuring pages hierarchically is a massive plus for documentation.
>
> On 11 Nov 2016 7:46 am, "Gunnar Tapper" <tapper.gun...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Related to the muti-lingual issue but also separate since it has to do
> with
> > tools. This might be the wrong list to so please feel free to redirect.
> >
> > I've created a lot of documentation for Trafodion using Asciidoc, which
> > allows the project to include the documentation with the source. It's OK
> > but also complicated when wanting to provide PDF versions of the manuals
> > due to font issues and other things.
> >
> > Talking with other contributors, there's a clear preference to use Apache
> > OpenOffice for documentation. Beyond usability (and therefore more
> > willingness to document), it also makes translation easier.
> >
> > Has anyone used OpenOffice for documentation before? If so, how is it
> > handled with source control etc? (OpenOffice files are really zip
> archives
> > with multiple files in them.)
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

[Gunnar Tapper]

Hi Woonsan,

Yes, for the user@ list. At least up to a point where inline translation is
working well and common. :)

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Woonsan Ko <woon...@apache.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Copy/paste into a Translator, which detected the language automatically:
> In
> > practice, the question of the language to use from a list of diffusion is
> > specious. English it the lingua franca of the 21st century.
> >
> > Du kan göra precis samma sak med ett minoritetsspråk som svenska. Språk
> är
> > inte längre ett hinder.
> >
> > Take a look at how the Minecraft generation (I'm blessed with one)
> > operates. They have no issues to jump onto servers that use languages
> they
> > don't understand and then communicate using Translators. It's pretty
> > awesome. Real-time translators are coming. See Skype Translator for an
> > example.
> >
> > So, I'd argue that lingua franca is already becoming a thing of the past
> as
> > people get more comfortable with the idea of using them in everyday life.
> > Heck, just take a look at how people interact on Facebook these days --
> the
> > translate function is extremely cool.
> >
> > You can view language as a barrier to community building or you can use
> > technology to remove the barrier.
> >
> > Based on this discussion, I am going to add a new section to the main
> > project page that discusses communication in different languages
> > encouraging people to write questions in the own language if they're not
> > comfortable with English -- I rather have the question than no
> interaction.
> >
> > I'll tell them that the community uses translator software when needed
> and
> > that responses is likely to be in English so that they can translate back
> > as needed. A smalll first step but an important one.
>
> I guess you mean that in the user@ lists. That should be fine in my
> understanding from the discussions here and there.
> But as Shane and others pointed out, dev@ lists should be using
> English or Globish-like for good reasons. I would encourage committers
> to do so.
>
> Just my two cents,
>
> Woonsan
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <elecha...@gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> En pratique, la question de la langue à utiliser sur une liste de
> >> diffusion est spécieuse. L'anglais est la Lingua Franca du 21ème siècle.
> >>
> >>
> >> And if you haven't understood what I wrote in my native language, which
> >> is understood by around 500 million people around the globe, I guess you
> >> get my implicit point ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >> More seriously, it's not about how good are developpers in english :
> >> many of the Apache developpers are not english native speakers, and we
> >> do many mistakes. That does not matter too much : nobody will blame
> >> anyone for that. At some point, code is not in english, but in C, Java,
> >> Scala, etc... If you work as an IT person, you already have to face
> >> english in almost all the technical documents found on internet. Take
> >> the RFCs for instance : have thay all been translated to chinese ?
> >>
> >>
> >> But the most important thing : we are all about community. It's pretty
> >> hard to build it if you split it in 2, or more, because there is a
> >> language issue. It's going to be hard to communicate between a split
> >> community, way harder than using a very basic english...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Le 11/11/16 à 07:45, Reynold Xin a écrit :
> >> > Adding members@
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> >> >> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> >> >> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> >> >> English?
> >> >>
> >> >> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> >> English
> >> >> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> >> >> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> when
> >> it
> >> >&

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

[Gunnar Tapper]

" to
> >>> describe like
> >>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
> >>> others...
> >>> that's not right way.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> >>> contributing to
> >>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> >>> involved
> >>> in many
> >>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> >>>
> >>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
> >>> mailing
> >>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
> >>>
> >>> Project |  Emails|   Topics|   Participants
> >>> HBase |   610  |406  |   100
> >>> Spark   |   412  |88   |   124
> >>> Kylin |   294  |144  |   61
> >>> CarbonData |   852  |250  |   116
> >>> HAWQ  |   284  |109  |   57
> >>> Trafodion  |   87   |20   |   25
> >>>
> >>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
> >>> could check
> >>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
> >>>
> >>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
> >>> access
> >>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> speakers,
> >>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
> Way.
> >>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> >>> community, and try
> >>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> patience
> >>> for
> >>> those new comers.
> >>>
> >>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> journey,
> >>> our experience
> >>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> >>> challenges...through
> >>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
> many
> >>> potential projects
> >>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> >>>
> >>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> >>> Trafodion
> >>> community"
> >>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
> >>> PMC
> >>> know
> >>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
> >>> session recordings and
> >>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> >>> discussion
> >>> if necessary:-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> >>>>
> >>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
> from
> >>>> China.
> >>>>
> >>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
> >>> active
> >>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
> >>>> Chinese.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not
> to
> >>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions
> etc
> >>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> >>>>
> >>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
> >>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
> >>> China
> >>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues
> like
> >>>> this.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> Gunnar
> >>>>
> >>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <ross.gard...@microsoft.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
> >>> years
> >>>> ag

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper]

Hi,

I don't have any solutions, hence the discussion. If people show up on the
mailing lists, you see them and can do whatever makes sense. That's not the
issue.

Like Ted, I believe the friendly approach is the way to go. We're using
China as an example due to scale but I've seen language-specific user
groups in every endeavour through my career. I've presented in my native
language (Swedish) to Scandinavians as well as in English all over.
Sometimes, people in the audience have translated. Point is, you figure it
out if there's a will. Now, it's a lot simpler because of the translation
technology so I'd error on the side of inclusion whenever possible.

Anyway, I intend to work with the Chinese folks that interact with the
Tafodion project in English to figure out how we can bridge language
barriers better. Hopefully, we'll figure something out that can be reused
by other projects down the line. If not, at least we tried.

BTW, the QQ group I'm referring to is named "Geode/Trafodion Elite Group"
(group ID 176011868) from what I'm being told. Can't beat that. :)

Thanks,

Gunnar



On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Ted Dunning <ted.dunn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I actually take a different tack on that.
>
> I answer questions everywhere and provide a pointer for other fora for
> followups. It gives a friendlier feeling, improves searchability and still
> encourages the mailing lists.
>
> My experience is that simply not answering and pushing the OP to the lists
> has a low success rate.
>
> Another approach is to post the answer on the mailing lists and put a link
> to that thread  on the non-Apache site. That's a bit friendlier, but I
> don't think it is as good.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@savoirtech.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I’m not sure that changes anything… that has been the nature of this
> since
> > the beginning.
> >
> > For Apache… most happens on the mailing lists for very obvious reasons.
> > Doing things outside tand not bringing them to the lists is frowned upon
> > because it leaves the rest of the community in the dark.
> >
> > You see the challenges… they were explicitly discussed in this thread.
> > English is unfortunately/fortunately the adaptor of communication to the
> > world.  Thats not “western arrogance”.  Its a fact.  Someone has to be
> the
> > mediator and english it is.
> >
> > If a community wants to extend across borders and get more non-localized
> > input, then english will likely be the need.  If a project/PMC does not,
> > care, then utilize your language de-jour with the understanding of the
> > consequences.
> >
> > I don’t really see a solution beyond that.  I guess if you have an area
> > where the devs discuss in another language and someone wants to translate
> > it to english and bring it to the lists so others can be a part of it, I
> > assume that would work.  But that seems like a lot of work to me.  Do you
> > have a better solution?
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > A few things...
> > >
> > > 1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates
> > outside of "everything happens on mailing lists."
> > > 2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those
> > communities.
> > > 3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to
> > encourage this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide
> > community since they are a huge source of potential committers.
> > > 4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English
> > translators seem to work fine but not vice versa.
> > >
> > > So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building.
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <
> > jgenen...@savoirtech.com <mailto:jgenen...@savoirtech.com>> wrote:
> > > and you got your answer…. what changes?
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:tapper.gun...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a
> > question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using
> > Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are
> > part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for
> opinions
> > expressed by indiv

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper]

A few things...

1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates outside
of "everything happens on mailing lists."
2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those
communities.
3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to encourage
this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide community
since they are a huge source of potential committers.
4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English
translators seem to work fine but not vice versa.

So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building.

Gunnar

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@savoirtech.com>
wrote:

> and you got your answer…. what changes?
>
> Jeff
>
>
> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a
> question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using
> Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are
> part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions
> expressed by individuals.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@apache.org
> <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org>> wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org  r...@apache.org>> wrote:
> > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it
> is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance.
> Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap)
> are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active
> users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
> >
> > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs
> reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose
> country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
> >
> > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as
> I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my
> statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my
> argument was most *definitely* defensible.
> >
> > I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say
> that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to
> use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that
> the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
> >
> > For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on
> ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such
> as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are
> in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your
> tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there
> are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
> define on who your want your audience to be.
> >
> > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance”
> because our main language is an international one.  But it’s not going to
> change your situation or position.
> >
> > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice,
> then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.
> What responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the
> members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If
> this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
> attempting to answer you.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@apache.org
> <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org  jgenen...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
> your users to be and how you want your product adopted

Re: [DISCUSS] Documentation

[Gunnar Tapper]

Thanks Shane.

I started my career with (MUCH OLDER) markup languages in text editors
where you had special tags for change bars etc.

I agree that source control help diffs for developer while word processors
provide easy ways to show diffs to the user. Wearing my UX hat, I optimize
for users and making it easy for people to document, spell check, grammar
check, translate, etc. Different strokes for different folks.

It wasn't straight forward to figure out how to set up a system for
asciidoc with PDF but that's been done. But, as mentioned, I see an
unwillingness to help contribute, especially from people with tech writing
skills.

I will ask the dev community what they do with AOO, if at all. Thanks for
the pointer.

Gunnar

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 2:51 AM, Shane Curcuru <a...@shanecurcuru.org> wrote:

> Bertrand Delacretaz wrote on 11/11/16 9:37 AM:
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> ...Talking with other contributors, there's a clear preference to use
> Apache
> >> OpenOffice for documentation
> >
> > *for some people*, right? I think many of us are big fans of creating
> > documentation using structured text in version control repositories.
>
> Yes, using AOO is very hard on version control, since it's normally
> stored as a blob not a diff.
>
> There are many different structured documentation tools in various
> projects at Apache, and both PDFBox, Cocoon, and Forrest (and probably
> others) can be used to translate various kinds of structured docs
> (asciitext, markdown, xml, whatever) into PDFs for reading if desired.
>
> From the peanut gallery, I'd suggest researching some of the other doc
> tools in use at Apache projects - perhaps ask on
> d...@community.apache.org as well for ideas.  But in the end, the
> decision is up to whoever's actually writing the docs *for that
> project*.  If your contributors really will prefer AOO over other tools,
> then use that.
>
> - Shane
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper]

Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a
question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using
Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are
part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions
expressed by individuals.

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender  wrote:

>
> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin  wrote:
> > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it
> is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance.
> Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap)
> are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active
> users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
>
> The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs
> reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose
> country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
>
> I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as I
> stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my
> statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my
> argument was most *definitely* defensible.
>
> I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say
> that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to
> use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that
> the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
>
> For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on ActiveMQ,
> and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such as
> RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are in
> Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your
> tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there
> are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
> define on who your want your audience to be.
>
> You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance”
> because our main language is an international one.  But it’s not going to
> change your situation or position.
>
> I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice, then
> getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.  What
> responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the
> members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If
> this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
> attempting to answer you.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender  > wrote:
> > I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> >
> > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when
> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> >
> > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> interested in why.
> >
> > Just my usual .02.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber > wrote:
> > >
> > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was 

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper]

> WeChat Official Account ("official account' is WeChat's product, something
> like channel/blog...) who has 20,000 subscribers. And it's just one of such
> accounts...
>
> Then my question is are PPMCs willing to engage them?
>
> Why Chinese?
> To engage the biggest developer community of the world, no matter where's
> project coming from.
>
>
>
>
>
> Best Regards!
> -
>
> Luke Han
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other lists?
> I
> > was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and to get
> > help. The support side if you will.
> >
> > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means to
> > communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it.
> So, I
> > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
> > that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe
> that
> > was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than
> shut
> > it down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> >
> > As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users aren't
> > comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help identify
> > what would work for those users.
> >
> > I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate
> > discussion thread on that topic.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> >> international language, not because its the most used in the world.
> Thus
> >> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I
> think
> >> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross
> borders
> >> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell
> you
> >> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> >> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> >> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the
> discussion
> >> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you
> want
> >> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> >>
> >> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
> >> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
> >> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
> when
> >> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> >> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In
> the
> >> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC
> or,
> >> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> >> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> >>
> >> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> >> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> >> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> >> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> >> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe
> that
> >> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I
> think
> >> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> >> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> >> interested in why.
> >>
> >> Just my usual .02.
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >>
> >> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <t...@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> about
> >> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> >> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> >> >
> >> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
> >> happened" didn't mention the language.
> >> >
> >> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would
> non
> >> Chinese speaking people follow development

Re: [DISCUSS] Documentation

[Gunnar Tapper]

For people in this particular incubator. ;)

On Nov 11, 2016 2:37 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bdelacre...@apache.org>
wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...Talking with other contributors, there's a clear preference to use
> Apache
> > OpenOffice for documentation
>
> *for some people*, right? I think many of us are big fans of creating
> documentation using structured text in version control repositories.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

[DISCUSS] Documentation

[Gunnar Tapper]

Hi,

Related to the muti-lingual issue but also separate since it has to do with
tools. This might be the wrong list to so please feel free to redirect.

I've created a lot of documentation for Trafodion using Asciidoc, which
allows the project to include the documentation with the source. It's OK
but also complicated when wanting to provide PDF versions of the manuals
due to font issues and other things.

Talking with other contributors, there's a clear preference to use Apache
OpenOffice for documentation. Beyond usability (and therefore more
willingness to document), it also makes translation easier.

Has anyone used OpenOffice for documentation before? If so, how is it
handled with source control etc? (OpenOffice files are really zip archives
with multiple files in them.)

Thoughts?

-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper]

 Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> according
> > > to Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <luke...@apache.org
> <mailto:luke...@apache.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Gunnar,
> > >>
> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
> > >> real,
> > >> but just
> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions
> from
> > >> China,
> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> > >>
> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
> LABEL
> > >> for such
> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
> "issue" to
> > >> describe like
> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
> > >> others...
> > >> that's not right way.
> > >>
> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> > >> contributing to
> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> > >> involved
> > >> in many
> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> > >>
> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
> > >> mailing
> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org <http://lists.apache.org/> [1]:
> > >>
> > >> Project |  Emails|   Topics|   Participants
> > >> HBase |   610  |406  |   100
> > >> Spark   |   412  |88   |   124
> > >> Kylin |   294  |144  |   61
> > >> CarbonData |   852  |250  |   116
> > >> HAWQ  |   284  |109  |   57
> > >> Trafodion  |   87   |20   |   25
> > >>
> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
> > >> could check
> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
> list.
> > >>
> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way
> to
> > >> access
> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> speakers,
> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
> Way.
> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> > >> community, and try
> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> patience
> > >> for
> > >> those new comers.
> > >>
> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> journey,
> > >> our experience
> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> > >> challenges...through
> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
> many
> > >> potential projects
> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> > >>
> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> > >> Trafodion
> > >> community"
> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> Trafodion
> > >> PMC
> > >> know
> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
> > >> session recordings and
> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> > >> discussion
> > >> if necessary:-)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>  <
> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> tapper.gun...@gmail.com <mailto:tapper.gun...@gmail.com>>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Hi,
> > >> >
> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> > >> >
> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
> from
> > >> > China.
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper]

In Trafodion, I and others have simply used Google Translate (doesn't have
to be that tool, just what was handy) for Chinese-to-English. It wasn't a
big deal on the English side. But, the dialog stopped there so I don't know
whether it was because the translation back doesn't work or something else.

Maybe it would be a good idea to provide some guidance in different
languages to suggest to use translation tools and reassurance that the
community is very open to communication via translate tools?

Gunnar



On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:45 PM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org> wrote:

> Adding members@
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> > English?
> >
> > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English
> > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when
> it
> > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
> lower
> > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English
> > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> >
> > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> exclude
> > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> native
> > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> according
> > to Wikipedia.
> >
> > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <luke...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Gunnar,
> >>
> >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
> >> real,
> >> but just
> >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
> >> China,
> >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> >>
> >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
> LABEL
> >> for such
> >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of "issue"
> to
> >> describe like
> >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
> >> others...
> >> that's not right way.
> >>
> >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> >> contributing to
> >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> >> involved
> >> in many
> >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> >>
> >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
> >> mailing
> >> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
> >>
> >> Project |  Emails|   Topics|   Participants
> >> HBase |   610  |406  |   100
> >> Spark   |   412  |88   |   124
> >> Kylin |   294  |144  |   61
> >> CarbonData |   852  |250  |   116
> >> HAWQ  |   284  |109  |   57
> >> Trafodion  |   87   |20   |   25
> >>
> >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
> >> could check
> >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
> >>
> >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
> >> access
> >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English speakers,
> >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache Way.
> >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> >> community, and try
> >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> patience
> >> for
> >> those new comers.
> >>
> >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> journey,
> >> our experience
> >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> >> challenges...through
> >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping many
> >> potential projects
> >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> >>
> >> I would like suggest to change th

[DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper]

Hi,

Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.

Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution from
China.

One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that active
on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in Chinese.

I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not to
see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions etc
via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.

I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in China
can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues like
this.

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler"  wrote:

Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of years
ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source beyond
English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip to
China.

RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to. We
discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved with
this proposal.

I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will need
to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need to
understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation and as
individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met some of
the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the project
can succeed.

Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.

Ross

---
Twitter: @rgardler


From: Bruce Snyder 
Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal

Hi John,

Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for constructive
feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project using
your suggestions.

First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von Gosling,
there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the history was
erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu went
awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also gives
further explanation of the project history in a response below. Indeed,
this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with git),
but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve and
grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?

Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is
the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good mentors,
regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest in
helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in continuing
to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years experience
at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is an
inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay for
the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project and
people to the ASF.

Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good suggestions
for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal. Even
if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving forward.
I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you mentioned
as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ code
base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with his
thoughts:

Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two questions
specifically:

- How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities to
build cross platform clients?
- How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
persistence stores?


Bruce

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament 
wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik 
> wrote:
>
> > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned about:
> >https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%

Re: Notes on branding

[Gunnar Tapper]

Changes made to the trafodion website:

1. Moved disclaimer text to about section rather than in footer.
2. Added disclaimer to latest version of documentation.
3. Linked incubator logo to incubator.apache.org

With this, I hope that the trafodion website matches all desired branding
policies for an incubator project? http://trafodion.incubator.apache.org

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> OK, I'll fix that when I get a chance.
>
> On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton <
> dennis.hamil...@acm.org> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, it would be great were the Apache Incubator image
>> linked to something better than http://trafodion.apache.org [;<).
>>
>> As a general observation, the fine print mentioning of Incubator would
>> also serve folks better if there was a link as part of the Incubator
>> mention.
>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org in both cases seems good enough.
>>
>> No voting required.
>>
>>  - Dennis
>>
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: Ted Dunning [mailto:ted.dunn...@gmail.com]
>> > Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2016 00:05
>> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
>> > Subject: Re: Notes on branding
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 8:55 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > FYI, "Apache Trafodion" is part of the logo. I'm not putting the
>> > project
>> > > through another round of voting on that one. :)
>> > >
>> >
>> > Wouldn't suggest that either.
>> >
>> > What I was noting was that the text above the log and the text in the
>> > logo
>> > were kind of redundant.
>> >
>> > I sympathize with not wanting to make low priority changes. This was
>> > just a
>> > note.
>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: Notes on branding

[Gunnar Tapper]

OK, I'll fix that when I get a chance.

On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamil...@acm.org
> wrote:

> On the other hand, it would be great were the Apache Incubator image
> linked to something better than http://trafodion.apache.org [;<).
>
> As a general observation, the fine print mentioning of Incubator would
> also serve folks better if there was a link as part of the Incubator
> mention.
>
> http://incubator.apache.org in both cases seems good enough.
>
> No voting required.
>
>  - Dennis
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ted Dunning [mailto:ted.dunn...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2016 00:05
> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Notes on branding
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 8:55 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > FYI, "Apache Trafodion" is part of the logo. I'm not putting the
> > project
> > > through another round of voting on that one. :)
> > >
> >
> > Wouldn't suggest that either.
> >
> > What I was noting was that the text above the log and the text in the
> > logo
> > were kind of redundant.
> >
> > I sympathize with not wanting to make low priority changes. This was
> > just a
> > note.
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: Notes on branding

[Gunnar Tapper]

Thanks Ted.

FYI, "Apache Trafodion" is part of the logo. I'm not putting the project
through another round of voting on that one. :)

It strikes me that the left (or right) part of a project's web site menu
could contain "Apache Incubator Project" as a standard. Such an approach
wouldn't impede website design much while making the status of the project
very clear.

Honestly, I don't want to spend a lot more time of the website itself given
that the technology is quite limited. (The project wanted a Maven-based
website so I did what I could.) It would have been another matter if I
could have use Wordpress with a good theme or something like that. :)

Gunnar

On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Ted Dunning <ted.dunn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Gunnar,
>
> Think that page looks pretty good (not referring to the standards, just
> looking at the page).
>
> Having the word incubator near the logo might be slightly nicer, but that
> isn't such a big deal since you have that on the project name just above
> the logo and you have the Incubator logo in the banner as well.
>
> You guys nailed the spirit part of the policy.
>
> As a design note, you have the project name in the upper left hand corner
> twice. You might be able to merge those (preserving the "Incubating", of
> course) to save some real estate and make your image case more forcefully.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 3:44 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Let me offer up a concrete example since I struggle with the issue of
> > branding: http://trafodion.apache.org/documentation.html
> >
> > I chose the following approach based on input from out mentor Stack:
> >
> > - Added (incubator) to the menu bar
> > - Added the incubator logo on the top of the page
> > - Placed the disclaimer on the bottom of the page
> >
> > I did you placeholders in the documentation for things like mailing list,
> > project names, and cross-documentation links to make renaming a matter of
> > updating pom.xml files and rebuilding.
> >
> > However, I did NOT put incubator disclaimers or even an incubator status
> in
> > the documentation simply because it felt like over communication of
> > incubator status. As you'll see, the Apache license language is included
> in
> > PDF and web-book formats but not the incubator disclaimer. I don't know
> > whether I made the right choice. If I didn't, then I'd think that the
> > guidance should state that web pages and documentation should include
> BOTH
> > the ASL text and the incubator-disclaimer text.
> >
> > I hope this helps with the discussion.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Mike Jumper <mike.jum...@guac-dev.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Marvin Humphrey <
> mar...@rectangular.com
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Greg Chase <g...@gregchase.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The branding guidelines do not address feedback such as "logo in
> > > footer"
> > > > or
> > > > > "disclaimer is buried deep or below the fold".
> > > >
> > > > Incubation disclaimers are intended to be substantive.  They are not
> > CYA
> > > > legal
> > > > boilerplate that can be are buried in fine print. The intent is to
> > > > communicate
> > > > (effectively!) to consumers that a project is incubating. That way,
> > > people
> > > > will know that certain caveats apply:
> > > >
> > > > Apache Foo is an effort undergoing incubation at The Apache
> > Software
> > > > Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the Apache Incubator.  Incubation
> is
> > > > required of all newly accepted projects until a further review
> > > > indicates
> > > > that the infrastructure, communications, and decision making
> > process
> > > > have
> > > > stabilized in a manner consistent with other successful ASF
> > projects.
> > > > While incubation status is not necessarily a reflection of the
> > > > completeness or stability of the code, it does indicate that the
> > > > project
> > > > has yet to be fully endorsed by the ASF.
> > > >
> > > > What would be best is if podlings just understood that intent, and as
> > and
> > > > took
> > > > it upon themselves to ensure that their incubating status was
> > > communicated
> > > > effectively -- in websites, in release announcements, etc.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Can you cite, as an example, an incubating project's website where you
> > > would consider the incubating status effectively communicated, and the
> > > disclaimer not buried?
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> >
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: Notes on branding

[Gunnar Tapper]

On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 5:39 PM, John D. Ament  wrote:

> Some notes, but again only my opinion.
>
> <3
>
> My only nit pick with the disclaimer placement is that its even below your
> normal footer.  The more appropriate place is the about section on the home
> page.  My interpretation is that this needs to be on your website and in
> your documentation.  Not on every page.
>
> OK. I can move the text to the About section on the front page and remove
it from the footer.

>
> >
> > I did you placeholders in the documentation for things like mailing list,
> > project names, and cross-documentation links to make renaming a matter of
> > updating pom.xml files and rebuilding.
> >
> > However, I did NOT put incubator disclaimers or even an incubator status
> in
> > the documentation simply because it felt like over communication of
> > incubator status. As you'll see, the Apache license language is included
> in
> > PDF and web-book formats but not the incubator disclaimer. I don't know
> > whether I made the right choice. If I didn't, then I'd think that the
> > guidance should state that web pages and documentation should include
> BOTH
> > the ASL text and the incubator-disclaimer text.
> >
>
> Inclusion in the documentation is required.  But see my note above.  We're
> not asking you to inundate the users with it (from my POV).  I would put it
> in an intro section if it were up to me.
>
> What's the preference? The disclaimer before or after the ASL text in
documentation? Do I need to have the disclaimer on wiki pages that provide
documentation, too? For example:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Trafodion+Contributor+Guide

If both are required, then I'd suggest that a single ASL+disclaimer
statement with guidance is provided.

Also, I'd like to point out that graduation now means that the project has
to go hunt for every place it mentions incubation to pull out the
disclaimer.

It's seems to me that the easier approach is to redirect $
project-name.apache.org to $project-name.incubator.apache.org and do
something similar for the wiki. That way, the incubation status is quite
clear.


>

>

Re: Notes on branding

[Gunnar Tapper]

Let me offer up a concrete example since I struggle with the issue of
branding: http://trafodion.apache.org/documentation.html

I chose the following approach based on input from out mentor Stack:

- Added (incubator) to the menu bar
- Added the incubator logo on the top of the page
- Placed the disclaimer on the bottom of the page

I did you placeholders in the documentation for things like mailing list,
project names, and cross-documentation links to make renaming a matter of
updating pom.xml files and rebuilding.

However, I did NOT put incubator disclaimers or even an incubator status in
the documentation simply because it felt like over communication of
incubator status. As you'll see, the Apache license language is included in
PDF and web-book formats but not the incubator disclaimer. I don't know
whether I made the right choice. If I didn't, then I'd think that the
guidance should state that web pages and documentation should include BOTH
the ASL text and the incubator-disclaimer text.

I hope this helps with the discussion.

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Mike Jumper 
wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Marvin Humphrey 
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Greg Chase  wrote:
> >
> > > The branding guidelines do not address feedback such as "logo in
> footer"
> > or
> > > "disclaimer is buried deep or below the fold".
> >
> > Incubation disclaimers are intended to be substantive.  They are not CYA
> > legal
> > boilerplate that can be are buried in fine print. The intent is to
> > communicate
> > (effectively!) to consumers that a project is incubating. That way,
> people
> > will know that certain caveats apply:
> >
> > Apache Foo is an effort undergoing incubation at The Apache Software
> > Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the Apache Incubator.  Incubation is
> > required of all newly accepted projects until a further review
> > indicates
> > that the infrastructure, communications, and decision making process
> > have
> > stabilized in a manner consistent with other successful ASF projects.
> > While incubation status is not necessarily a reflection of the
> > completeness or stability of the code, it does indicate that the
> > project
> > has yet to be fully endorsed by the ASF.
> >
> > What would be best is if podlings just understood that intent, and as and
> > took
> > it upon themselves to ensure that their incubating status was
> communicated
> > effectively -- in websites, in release announcements, etc.
> >
> >
> Can you cite, as an example, an incubating project's website where you
> would consider the incubating status effectively communicated, and the
> disclaimer not buried?
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*