Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Sorry, forgot to answer this... Of course, PR and social things are important, so yes, if you can help in those, you are welcome! Monday, June 8, 2015, 10:15:38 AM, Pierre Smits wrote: Hi All, Building a community requires more than just contributors who focus on code. But also committers regarding project and product promotions (website, wiki, social media, etc).. As as contributor of the other kind I have experience in promoting both the project itself and its works I am willing to help out to get to a healthy and diverse and growing community. I am a PMC member of the Apache Directory project and a year long contributor of the Apache OFBiz project. Best regards, Pierre -- View this message in context: http://apache-incubator-general.996316.n3.nabble.com/DISCUSS-Freemarker-Incubation-proposal-tp43872p44062.html Sent from the Apache Incubator - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Wow, thank you so much to all of you for the great feedback you have provided about this proposal and specifically about the community concerns (thank you Martin for raising this topic, it was good to address this here after it was briefly discussed at Apache Barcamp@Austin), license, releases: we have received super valuable information that will help a lot the Freemarker community. I will prepare the email to start the vote by tomorrow. Jacopo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Hi, On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 9:11 PM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: A simple question regarding the SGA... at the bottom there's List of software and other intellectual property covered by this agreement:. I wonder if we should have Freemarker under that,... The best by far is to prepare archives of the code that's being donated, at a public URL, and include the sha1 or other digests of those archives in that software grant list. This makes it absolutely clear what is being donated. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
A simple question regarding the SGA... at the bottom there's List of software and other intellectual property covered by this agreement:. I wonder if we should have Freemarker under that, or something like: Freemarker (including the engine itself, also the Docgen and Site modules) Because, the Freemarker project contains multiple projects technically: Docgen (generates HTML from XDocBook), Site (generates Web site from some XML-s), and the engine itself (freemarker.jar). Only the last is released to the Maven Central Repo. When people say Freemarker, they usually just mean the last artifact (the engine). So I thought the SGA is ambiguous if we just say Freemarker. -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Wednesday, June 3, 2015, 2:11:29 AM, John D. Ament wrote: On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 8:07 PM Ralph Goers ralph.go...@dslextreme.com wrote: IMO, once the source code is migrated to the ASF you should not do any more releases outside the ASF. I would attempt to clear up as many IP issues as you can before entering but I believe several projects have resolved their IP issues while in the incubator. In the worst case some code may need to be rewritten. Agreed, considering the contributor list on the code base is small (5 contributors) with the bulk of it from you, it shouldn't be an issue. You'll want to check w/ your eventual mentors - Contributors/committers have ICLAs. - SGA passing ownership to the ASF - A thorough review of the code base validating things like headers, proper ownership are all transferred. It's one of the easier things to do, but typically neglected. John Ralph On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: But before that... a question. Let's say the voting has a positive result. Can we still do Freemarker releases outside ASF (with the current owners and source code repository) after that? For how long? My concern is that when we are already in the incubator, we can't release from it as far as ASF finds that there are unsettled IP issues. Like if someone finds out that an SGL is needed from X who we haven't seen in the last 15 years, that can take a while, which is OK, but until that I can't do releases (and in general I can't be sure what will happen with the work committed). Is it possible to only enter incubation when there are no known blockers that would make releases impossible? Or how does it work? -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Thursday, May 28, 2015, 4:11:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: ...PS: who should start the vote?.. In general that's the role of the podling's champion. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Hi All, Building a community requires more than just contributors who focus on code. But also committers regarding project and product promotions (website, wiki, social media, etc).. As as contributor of the other kind I have experience in promoting both the project itself and its works I am willing to help out to get to a healthy and diverse and growing community. I am a PMC member of the Apache Directory project and a year long contributor of the Apache OFBiz project. Best regards, Pierre -- View this message in context: http://apache-incubator-general.996316.n3.nabble.com/DISCUSS-Freemarker-Incubation-proposal-tp43872p44062.html Sent from the Apache Incubator - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
On 6/2/15 8:02 PM, Ralph Goers wrote: I would proceed with the plan that the project will succeed in graduating. +1. Focus on the positive, and finding new community contributors. Trying to incubate while regularly talking about well, if we don't make it, we're going to leave and do X is not a welcoming feeling. Usually project names stay with the ASF. I am not sure what the policy would be for a project that failed to graduate. I would suspect the project could keep it after leaving. However, if the project fails to graduate the likelihood of it succeeding anywhere would be minimal. The ASF owns all trademarks on behalf of our project communities. For top level projects (TLPs), the intent is to keep all trademarks: as a non-profit public charity, we have a duty to try to keep the reputation of top level projects for the public good. For Incubating projects, we explicitly note that they are *not* top level projects, so the policy is different than for TLPs. If a podling community fails to graduate, but is acting in good faith, the ASF would be happy to arrange any trademark transfers back to the original owners. We have had case(s) in the past where project donors with notable trademarks asked for an explicit clause confirming the return of the trademarks if Incubation fails, which we accepted, so that's OK. In terms of the code, given that any code under SGA or developed during incubation will be under the Apache license, of course the previous team (or anyone else) is welcome to fork at any point. - Shane Ralph On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: That's certainly won't be a problem in reality, as Jacopo said. What I'm curious about is if what happens if Freemarker gets into the Incubator but then sadly later fails to graduate, so then it has to continue outside ASF, probably with the earlier owners. I guess then we will have to fork the work done during incubation (or can that be given back with some kind of SLG?), which is messy (complicates the license permanently, right?), but doable. But we will need to get the product name back too! Is that promised formally somewhere, or how does that go? Well, let's hope no such thing will happen, but still, I should know this. -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Thursday, May 28, 2015, 11:39:17 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Hi, On Thursday, May 28, 2015, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: ...Should we move to the next step (that I think is starting a vote)?... I think so, with two comments: Having just two committers is very small but that can hopefully be solved during incubation. The proposal does not mention how the Freemarker name/trademark donation will be handled, if the copyright owners also own the name that won't be a problem. And anyway that can be solved during incubation, but if you can make sure before entering incubation that the name can be donated that's easier. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: Thursday, June 4, 2015, 3:30:56 PM, Martin van den Bemt wrote: ...(at least from before 2005 up to 2008 and according to Geir at least from 2000/2001). The 2 names constantly popping up in these threads are Jonathan Revusky and Daniel Dekany... ...I'm much older, means, I can just ignore things that I don't agree with and go on I have absolutely no context to lean one way or the other, but if something actually happened back in 2005-2008 it's safe to assume that people might have changed in the meantime. And incubation is a good way to figure out how people behave, before graduating a project. IOW, based on Daniel's answers the things that Martin mentions don't look to me as obstacles for entering incubation. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Thanks for the clarification! So this also means that if the mentors can't find a problem now, then it's unlikely that we can't do a releases from the incubator because of some new IP issues cropping up. Good news. Thursday, June 4, 2015, 9:16:45 AM, David Nalley wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: Wednesday, June 3, 2015, 5:29:40 PM, Ralph Goers wrote: As soon as it can be done. The question is, why would you want to wait? I thought, maybe, after being voted in, but before actual incubation starts, the legal guys at ASF start looking at the project. Or something like that. Anyway, then I guess we just try to pile up as many SGA-s as possible, and only then try voting, as it was suggested. Generally speaking here's the order: Incubation vote concludes successfully 1. Migration of 'infrastructure' (source code repo, mailing lists, perhaps bug trackers) 2. Focus begins on resolving IP issues (this work is done by the project, and overseen by the mentors) in order to prepare for a release. 3. First release occurs . incubation continues. The legal affairs committee is generally not going to interact with a project unless a mentor or the project makes a request that requires them to. There is a relatively straightforward process for getting software grants dealt with. Going back to your earlier question - occasionally a project will make a release or perhaps even two under the old 'home' - but all of that energy is divergent from building up your new community and figuring out your way around the ASF. --David -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Thursday, June 4, 2015, 3:30:56 PM, Martin van den Bemt wrote: As we are community over code and I haven't read anything about the history we have with Freemarker, it is probably now the time to mention it. The first response on this proposal was Huh? They want to come to Apache ? Which was also the reacting of Jonathan... but as he is inactive for very long time, he agreed to not stand in the way. Especially if FM will be an Apache project, it's very very unlikely that he will want to be active again, if that's what you are worried about. The Freemarker community was a fan of trolling the Apache Velocity mailinglists Most of the Freemarker community doesn't even know about this matter... (at least from before 2005 up to 2008 and according to Geir at least from 2000/2001). The 2 names constantly popping up in these threads are Jonathan Revusky and Daniel Dekany. Even though Daniel uses a lot friendlier words, had some useful discussions on the Velocity lists and disapproved of the strong wording Jonathan uses, he was agreeing with the general message expressed in those mails and *active* in these useless threads and even replying to mails Jonathan send. I don't know, I guess he was right. Apart from fan trolling. Or, I don't remember if I have agreed on something dangerous. Anyway, I'm much older, means, I can just ignore things that I don't agree with and go on. A vital skill at working places. So : - Since Jonathan is the main author of the code, does he agree to the move to Apache ? (as we like to have voluntary code donations) Yes, he will sign. - I would be -1 on him becoming a committer at Apache at this time, if he would turn up. It would need some kind of proof to show that behaviour has improved. His message were exactly the kind of communication that make people run away from projects and we need of code of conduct for. - Daniel - what has changed ? [1] Since you are listed as a committer, it would be nice to know you will not become a toxic member of the Apache community, but a constructive. Mvgr, Martin [1] http://markmail.org/message/mx7bpfd4sflm6yee (the whole thread is typical for the trolling) , more examples simply by searching Jonathan and Daniel's name on the velocity lists. 2015-05-21 15:23 GMT+02:00 Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com: Hi all, my name is Jacopo Cappellato, I am an ASF member and the PMC chair of Apache OFBiz. As the proposal's champion, I would like to open up a discussion thread on the proposal for Freemarker to join ASF as an incubating project. The proposal is available here: https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal I would like to thank the co-authors Dániel Dékány, David Jones and Jean-Frederic Clere. Thanks in advance for your time! Jacopo Cappellato - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: Wednesday, June 3, 2015, 5:29:40 PM, Ralph Goers wrote: As soon as it can be done. The question is, why would you want to wait? I thought, maybe, after being voted in, but before actual incubation starts, the legal guys at ASF start looking at the project. Or something like that. Anyway, then I guess we just try to pile up as many SGA-s as possible, and only then try voting, as it was suggested. Generally speaking here's the order: Incubation vote concludes successfully 1. Migration of 'infrastructure' (source code repo, mailing lists, perhaps bug trackers) 2. Focus begins on resolving IP issues (this work is done by the project, and overseen by the mentors) in order to prepare for a release. 3. First release occurs . incubation continues. The legal affairs committee is generally not going to interact with a project unless a mentor or the project makes a request that requires them to. There is a relatively straightforward process for getting software grants dealt with. Going back to your earlier question - occasionally a project will make a release or perhaps even two under the old 'home' - but all of that energy is divergent from building up your new community and figuring out your way around the ASF. --David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 9:16 AM, David Nalley da...@gnsa.us wrote: ...occasionally a project will make a release or perhaps even two under the old 'home' .. I was going to say that - Wicket is a good example of a project that joined with a well-established community and processes, where it made sense to make a few more releases outside of the ASF during incubation. As long as those releases are not confused with Apache releases that's fine, but as David says the podling should be focused on actually moving to Apache. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
As we are community over code and I haven't read anything about the history we have with Freemarker, it is probably now the time to mention it. The first response on this proposal was Huh? They want to come to Apache ? The Freemarker community was a fan of trolling the Apache Velocity mailinglists (at least from before 2005 up to 2008 and according to Geir at least from 2000/2001). The 2 names constantly popping up in these threads are Jonathan Revusky and Daniel Dekany. Even though Daniel uses a lot friendlier words, had some useful discussions on the Velocity lists and disapproved of the strong wording Jonathan uses, he was agreeing with the general message expressed in those mails and *active* in these useless threads and even replying to mails Jonathan send. So : - Since Jonathan is the main author of the code, does he agree to the move to Apache ? (as we like to have voluntary code donations) - I would be -1 on him becoming a committer at Apache at this time, if he would turn up. It would need some kind of proof to show that behaviour has improved. His message were exactly the kind of communication that make people run away from projects and we need of code of conduct for. - Daniel - what has changed ? [1] Since you are listed as a committer, it would be nice to know you will not become a toxic member of the Apache community, but a constructive. Mvgr, Martin [1] http://markmail.org/message/mx7bpfd4sflm6yee (the whole thread is typical for the trolling) , more examples simply by searching Jonathan and Daniel's name on the velocity lists. 2015-05-21 15:23 GMT+02:00 Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com: Hi all, my name is Jacopo Cappellato, I am an ASF member and the PMC chair of Apache OFBiz. As the proposal's champion, I would like to open up a discussion thread on the proposal for Freemarker to join ASF as an incubating project. The proposal is available here: https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal I would like to thank the co-authors Dániel Dékány, David Jones and Jean-Frederic Clere. Thanks in advance for your time! Jacopo Cappellato - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
So then I suppose my question can be reduced to: After the voting has concluded with positive result (for entering incubation), when must we migrate the source code to ASF? -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Wednesday, June 3, 2015, 2:05:57 AM, Ralph Goers wrote: IMO, once the source code is migrated to the ASF you should not do any more releases outside the ASF. I would attempt to clear up as many IP issues as you can before entering but I believe several projects have resolved their IP issues while in the incubator. In the worst case some code may need to be rewritten. Ralph On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: But before that... a question. Let's say the voting has a positive result. Can we still do Freemarker releases outside ASF (with the current owners and source code repository) after that? For how long? My concern is that when we are already in the incubator, we can't release from it as far as ASF finds that there are unsettled IP issues. Like if someone finds out that an SGL is needed from X who we haven't seen in the last 15 years, that can take a while, which is OK, but until that I can't do releases (and in general I can't be sure what will happen with the work committed). Is it possible to only enter incubation when there are no known blockers that would make releases impossible? Or how does it work? -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Thursday, May 28, 2015, 4:11:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: ...PS: who should start the vote?.. In general that's the role of the podling's champion. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
As soon as it can be done. The question is, why would you want to wait? The point is, you don’t want to get approval for the project and then have everyone lose interest because there is no code to work on. Ralph On Jun 3, 2015, at 12:01 AM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: So then I suppose my question can be reduced to: After the voting has concluded with positive result (for entering incubation), when must we migrate the source code to ASF? -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Wednesday, June 3, 2015, 2:05:57 AM, Ralph Goers wrote: IMO, once the source code is migrated to the ASF you should not do any more releases outside the ASF. I would attempt to clear up as many IP issues as you can before entering but I believe several projects have resolved their IP issues while in the incubator. In the worst case some code may need to be rewritten. Ralph On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: But before that... a question. Let's say the voting has a positive result. Can we still do Freemarker releases outside ASF (with the current owners and source code repository) after that? For how long? My concern is that when we are already in the incubator, we can't release from it as far as ASF finds that there are unsettled IP issues. Like if someone finds out that an SGL is needed from X who we haven't seen in the last 15 years, that can take a while, which is OK, but until that I can't do releases (and in general I can't be sure what will happen with the work committed). Is it possible to only enter incubation when there are no known blockers that would make releases impossible? Or how does it work? -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Thursday, May 28, 2015, 4:11:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: ...PS: who should start the vote?.. In general that's the role of the podling's champion. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
That's certainly won't be a problem in reality, as Jacopo said. What I'm curious about is if what happens if Freemarker gets into the Incubator but then sadly later fails to graduate, so then it has to continue outside ASF, probably with the earlier owners. I guess then we will have to fork the work done during incubation (or can that be given back with some kind of SLG?), which is messy (complicates the license permanently, right?), but doable. But we will need to get the product name back too! Is that promised formally somewhere, or how does that go? Well, let's hope no such thing will happen, but still, I should know this. -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Thursday, May 28, 2015, 11:39:17 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Hi, On Thursday, May 28, 2015, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: ...Should we move to the next step (that I think is starting a vote)?... I think so, with two comments: Having just two committers is very small but that can hopefully be solved during incubation. The proposal does not mention how the Freemarker name/trademark donation will be handled, if the copyright owners also own the name that won't be a problem. And anyway that can be solved during incubation, but if you can make sure before entering incubation that the name can be donated that's easier. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 8:07 PM Ralph Goers ralph.go...@dslextreme.com wrote: IMO, once the source code is migrated to the ASF you should not do any more releases outside the ASF. I would attempt to clear up as many IP issues as you can before entering but I believe several projects have resolved their IP issues while in the incubator. In the worst case some code may need to be rewritten. Agreed, considering the contributor list on the code base is small (5 contributors) with the bulk of it from you, it shouldn't be an issue. You'll want to check w/ your eventual mentors - Contributors/committers have ICLAs. - SGA passing ownership to the ASF - A thorough review of the code base validating things like headers, proper ownership are all transferred. It's one of the easier things to do, but typically neglected. John Ralph On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: But before that... a question. Let's say the voting has a positive result. Can we still do Freemarker releases outside ASF (with the current owners and source code repository) after that? For how long? My concern is that when we are already in the incubator, we can't release from it as far as ASF finds that there are unsettled IP issues. Like if someone finds out that an SGL is needed from X who we haven't seen in the last 15 years, that can take a while, which is OK, but until that I can't do releases (and in general I can't be sure what will happen with the work committed). Is it possible to only enter incubation when there are no known blockers that would make releases impossible? Or how does it work? -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Thursday, May 28, 2015, 4:11:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: ...PS: who should start the vote?.. In general that's the role of the podling's champion. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
I would proceed with the plan that the project will succeed in graduating. Usually project names stay with the ASF. I am not sure what the policy would be for a project that failed to graduate. I would suspect the project could keep it after leaving. However, if the project fails to graduate the likelihood of it succeeding anywhere would be minimal. Ralph On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: That's certainly won't be a problem in reality, as Jacopo said. What I'm curious about is if what happens if Freemarker gets into the Incubator but then sadly later fails to graduate, so then it has to continue outside ASF, probably with the earlier owners. I guess then we will have to fork the work done during incubation (or can that be given back with some kind of SLG?), which is messy (complicates the license permanently, right?), but doable. But we will need to get the product name back too! Is that promised formally somewhere, or how does that go? Well, let's hope no such thing will happen, but still, I should know this. -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Thursday, May 28, 2015, 11:39:17 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Hi, On Thursday, May 28, 2015, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: ...Should we move to the next step (that I think is starting a vote)?... I think so, with two comments: Having just two committers is very small but that can hopefully be solved during incubation. The proposal does not mention how the Freemarker name/trademark donation will be handled, if the copyright owners also own the name that won't be a problem. And anyway that can be solved during incubation, but if you can make sure before entering incubation that the name can be donated that's easier. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
IMO, once the source code is migrated to the ASF you should not do any more releases outside the ASF. I would attempt to clear up as many IP issues as you can before entering but I believe several projects have resolved their IP issues while in the incubator. In the worst case some code may need to be rewritten. Ralph On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:54 PM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: But before that... a question. Let's say the voting has a positive result. Can we still do Freemarker releases outside ASF (with the current owners and source code repository) after that? For how long? My concern is that when we are already in the incubator, we can't release from it as far as ASF finds that there are unsettled IP issues. Like if someone finds out that an SGL is needed from X who we haven't seen in the last 15 years, that can take a while, which is OK, but until that I can't do releases (and in general I can't be sure what will happen with the work committed). Is it possible to only enter incubation when there are no known blockers that would make releases impossible? Or how does it work? -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Thursday, May 28, 2015, 4:11:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: ...PS: who should start the vote?.. In general that's the role of the podling's champion. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
But before that... a question. Let's say the voting has a positive result. Can we still do Freemarker releases outside ASF (with the current owners and source code repository) after that? For how long? My concern is that when we are already in the incubator, we can't release from it as far as ASF finds that there are unsettled IP issues. Like if someone finds out that an SGL is needed from X who we haven't seen in the last 15 years, that can take a while, which is OK, but until that I can't do releases (and in general I can't be sure what will happen with the work committed). Is it possible to only enter incubation when there are no known blockers that would make releases impossible? Or how does it work? -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Thursday, May 28, 2015, 4:11:49 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: ...PS: who should start the vote?.. In general that's the role of the podling's champion. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
On 5/21/15 10:29 AM, John D. Ament wrote: Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total contributors. https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be interested in joining the proposal? Hi Folks, My name is Woonsan Ko. I recently contributed a small feature (JSTL function support in freemarker) to the project, so my name was there. I'm really happy with this move to Apache incubation, and I'd like to help this as a committer if possible. I'm working at Hippo (http://www.onehippo.com), an open source Web CMS company, and we Hippo have been integrating with Freemarker as our default delivery tier templating engine. [1] So our customers have been using Freemarker as the default templating option on top of our product for long time as well. You can take a look at our forum [2] to see how heavily they're using it with our product. So we Hippo have supported the users with this great template engine! I personally have experiences with integrating Spring MVC Framework for our delivery-tier product (and portlet bridges long time ago). I can also help with CodeMirror template support for Freemarker. I'd like to contribute these areas as well as documentation, testing, etc. Kind regards, Woonsan [1] http://www.onehippo.org/library/concepts/web-application/hst-freemarker-support.html [2] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/hippo-community/freemarker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
That's great, and of course you are in as far as I'm concerned! (In Freemarker, I mean... as we aren't in the Incubator yet.) I plan to assemble a list of TODO-s, and especially, trying to identify pieces that contributors could pick up easily. Also, more eyes who just try to spot problems in the commits is highly welcome. (Regarding what concretely you (or other Hippo developers) wish to contribute, let's continue on freemarker-devel, as these are OT there.) -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Monday, June 1, 2015, 5:15:35 PM, Woonsan Ko wrote: On 5/21/15 10:29 AM, John D. Ament wrote: Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total contributors. https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be interested in joining the proposal? Hi Folks, My name is Woonsan Ko. I recently contributed a small feature (JSTL function support in freemarker) to the project, so my name was there. I'm really happy with this move to Apache incubation, and I'd like to help this as a committer if possible. I'm working at Hippo (http://www.onehippo.com), an open source Web CMS company, and we Hippo have been integrating with Freemarker as our default delivery tier templating engine. [1] So our customers have been using Freemarker as the default templating option on top of our product for long time as well. You can take a look at our forum [2] to see how heavily they're using it with our product. So we Hippo have supported the users with this great template engine! I personally have experiences with integrating Spring MVC Framework for our delivery-tier product (and portlet bridges long time ago). I can also help with CodeMirror template support for Freemarker. I'd like to contribute these areas as well as documentation, testing, etc. Kind regards, Woonsan [1] http://www.onehippo.org/library/concepts/web-application/hst-freemarker-support.html [2] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/hippo-community/freemarker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Ok, I have updated the proposal to include the feedback received (there is a new paragraph about the relationship with Velocity, Commons and I have added Ralph and Sergio as mentors). Thanks to all of you. Any other feedback? Should we move to the next step (that I think is starting a vote)? Cheers, Jacopo On May 26, 2015, at 8:17 AM, Ralph Goers ralph.go...@dslextreme.com wrote: While that is certainly a valid option, I would think that would be a topic for determine how to exit the incubator. Ralph On May 22, 2015, at 11:13 AM, Siegfried Goeschl siegfried.goes...@it20one.com wrote: Hi Daniel, regarding “lower bar for project sexiness and buzzwordyness” - another options would be using an existing ASF umbrella project, e.g. Apache Commons. There you find a lot “unsexy but heavily used stuff” … ;-) Cheers, Siegfried Goeschl On 22 May 2015, at 19:31, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: Technically (i.e., in source code), I don't think Velocity and Freemarker can share much. It seems that they kind of share fate though. Apparently, everyone has something more important to contribute to. And that's fine, I say, because what put these template engines into the spotlight 15(?) years ago was Web MVC, and legacy JSP's deficiencies to server that paradigm. It was a hot topic back then. But nowadays, just like in the case of Velocity (apparently), finding guys who want to hack this project for free after coding all day at the workplace, and instead of being with their families and all that, is, well... challenging. And it seems companies don't care to invest either by putting paid developers on it. (Certainly the same companies wouldn't be too happy if Freemarker is suddenly EOL-ed, though.) I guess there's some kind lower bar in project sexiness and buzzwordyness under which life just stops when it comes to contributions. Those same properties aren't needed for the project being heavily used though. So that's where we stand. But does it mean these projects should die? I don't think so. Does it mean that these projects are not for Apache? I don't know that, you tell me! Surely I don't want FM to go into incubation if failure is the most probable outcome. Can the requirements for getting out from incubation successfully be quantified? For the kind of project like this? -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Friday, May 22, 2015, 2:44:03 AM, Ralph Goers wrote: I used to use Apache Velocity. However, it hasn’t had a release since 2010 and the overall project activity has been minimal for years. As a consequence of that, and a feature that was missing, I recently switched to using Freemarker for some templating work I needed to do. The only reason I mention Velocity is I am wondering what relationship these two projects should have, if any. I am also concerned that if interest in development of Freemarker is decreasing is it going to suffer the same fate? I guess what I am wondering is if there is some way these two communities and/or technologies could combine? FWIW, I’d be happy to mentor this project. If I had the time I know I’d want to commit, but that has been in extremely short supply of late. Ralph On May 21, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. 4 Mentors is a good number, though! It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal addresses this issue at length. https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the Apache Way governance model and being part of the ASF (together with other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring new life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and improvements of the Freemarker codebase. I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at incubating. The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a large user base and wide adoption. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Hi, On Thursday, May 28, 2015, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: ...Should we move to the next step (that I think is starting a vote)?... I think so, with two comments: Having just two committers is very small but that can hopefully be solved during incubation. The proposal does not mention how the Freemarker name/trademark donation will be handled, if the copyright owners also own the name that won't be a problem. And anyway that can be solved during incubation, but if you can make sure before entering incubation that the name can be donated that's easier. -Bertrand
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Hi, On May 28, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thursday, May 28, 2015, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: ...Should we move to the next step (that I think is starting a vote)?... I think so, with two comments: Having just two committers is very small but that can hopefully be solved during incubation. Indeed this will be the main challenge that this project will have to tackle during incubation! The proposal does not mention how the Freemarker name/trademark donation will be handled, if the copyright owners also own the name that won't be a problem. And anyway that can be solved during incubation, but if you can make sure before entering incubation that the name can be donated that's easier. I think this is the case and the process of requesting/filing the SLG to the three owners has been already initiated. Thank you, Bertrand. PS: who should start the vote? I guess someone already in the IPMC (we have 3 mentors that are already in it). -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Hi, On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: ...PS: who should start the vote?.. In general that's the role of the podling's champion. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
While that is certainly a valid option, I would think that would be a topic for determine how to exit the incubator. Ralph On May 22, 2015, at 11:13 AM, Siegfried Goeschl siegfried.goes...@it20one.com wrote: Hi Daniel, regarding “lower bar for project sexiness and buzzwordyness” - another options would be using an existing ASF umbrella project, e.g. Apache Commons. There you find a lot “unsexy but heavily used stuff” … ;-) Cheers, Siegfried Goeschl On 22 May 2015, at 19:31, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: Technically (i.e., in source code), I don't think Velocity and Freemarker can share much. It seems that they kind of share fate though. Apparently, everyone has something more important to contribute to. And that's fine, I say, because what put these template engines into the spotlight 15(?) years ago was Web MVC, and legacy JSP's deficiencies to server that paradigm. It was a hot topic back then. But nowadays, just like in the case of Velocity (apparently), finding guys who want to hack this project for free after coding all day at the workplace, and instead of being with their families and all that, is, well... challenging. And it seems companies don't care to invest either by putting paid developers on it. (Certainly the same companies wouldn't be too happy if Freemarker is suddenly EOL-ed, though.) I guess there's some kind lower bar in project sexiness and buzzwordyness under which life just stops when it comes to contributions. Those same properties aren't needed for the project being heavily used though. So that's where we stand. But does it mean these projects should die? I don't think so. Does it mean that these projects are not for Apache? I don't know that, you tell me! Surely I don't want FM to go into incubation if failure is the most probable outcome. Can the requirements for getting out from incubation successfully be quantified? For the kind of project like this? -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Friday, May 22, 2015, 2:44:03 AM, Ralph Goers wrote: I used to use Apache Velocity. However, it hasn’t had a release since 2010 and the overall project activity has been minimal for years. As a consequence of that, and a feature that was missing, I recently switched to using Freemarker for some templating work I needed to do. The only reason I mention Velocity is I am wondering what relationship these two projects should have, if any. I am also concerned that if interest in development of Freemarker is decreasing is it going to suffer the same fate? I guess what I am wondering is if there is some way these two communities and/or technologies could combine? FWIW, I’d be happy to mentor this project. If I had the time I know I’d want to commit, but that has been in extremely short supply of late. Ralph On May 21, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. 4 Mentors is a good number, though! It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal addresses this issue at length. https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the Apache Way governance model and being part of the ASF (together with other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring new life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and improvements of the Freemarker codebase. I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at incubating. The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a large user base and wide adoption. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Hi Daniel, regarding “lower bar for project sexiness and buzzwordyness” - another options would be using an existing ASF umbrella project, e.g. Apache Commons. There you find a lot “unsexy but heavily used stuff” … ;-) Cheers, Siegfried Goeschl On 22 May 2015, at 19:31, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: Technically (i.e., in source code), I don't think Velocity and Freemarker can share much. It seems that they kind of share fate though. Apparently, everyone has something more important to contribute to. And that's fine, I say, because what put these template engines into the spotlight 15(?) years ago was Web MVC, and legacy JSP's deficiencies to server that paradigm. It was a hot topic back then. But nowadays, just like in the case of Velocity (apparently), finding guys who want to hack this project for free after coding all day at the workplace, and instead of being with their families and all that, is, well... challenging. And it seems companies don't care to invest either by putting paid developers on it. (Certainly the same companies wouldn't be too happy if Freemarker is suddenly EOL-ed, though.) I guess there's some kind lower bar in project sexiness and buzzwordyness under which life just stops when it comes to contributions. Those same properties aren't needed for the project being heavily used though. So that's where we stand. But does it mean these projects should die? I don't think so. Does it mean that these projects are not for Apache? I don't know that, you tell me! Surely I don't want FM to go into incubation if failure is the most probable outcome. Can the requirements for getting out from incubation successfully be quantified? For the kind of project like this? -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Friday, May 22, 2015, 2:44:03 AM, Ralph Goers wrote: I used to use Apache Velocity. However, it hasn’t had a release since 2010 and the overall project activity has been minimal for years. As a consequence of that, and a feature that was missing, I recently switched to using Freemarker for some templating work I needed to do. The only reason I mention Velocity is I am wondering what relationship these two projects should have, if any. I am also concerned that if interest in development of Freemarker is decreasing is it going to suffer the same fate? I guess what I am wondering is if there is some way these two communities and/or technologies could combine? FWIW, I’d be happy to mentor this project. If I had the time I know I’d want to commit, but that has been in extremely short supply of late. Ralph On May 21, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. 4 Mentors is a good number, though! It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal addresses this issue at length. https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the Apache Way governance model and being part of the ASF (together with other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring new life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and improvements of the Freemarker codebase. I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at incubating. The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a large user base and wide adoption. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Yes, I recently needed a lightweight templating engine (a single jar with no dependencies). I considered Freemarker, but rejected it. A freemarker-lite module would have hit the spot. Templating may not be sexy anymore, but it is useful for a wide variety of tasks, and it's not going away. Julian On May 22, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Ted Dunning ted.dunn...@gmail.com wrote: As an interesting aside, increasing the scope of Freemarker might improve sexiness. Consider extending to be a Scala templating engine. Or some similar small effort that ropes in a new community. On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: Some misc comments on the great feedback we have received so far (thanks to all for your help and interest): * Sergio, Ralph, we are happy to have you as mentors of Freemarker. I have edited the proposal document to include you in the mentors group; five mentors is plenty, so we should be good under this aspect. Jacques, you offered to mentor in another thread; thanks but for mentoring it's required to be a member of the IPMC or of the ASF * I agree with Bertrand and Ted that it will be mandatory for this project to build a larger community: in fact we are aware about this and are determined to work hard to grow an healthy (even if small) community, if we will be accepted in the Incubator; some good ideas have been proposed in this thread by John and Chris about how to do this and we will discuss other ideas as well * Julian and Ralph mentioned Velocity as a somewhat similar project; it is definitely true that there are similarities in scope (they are both Java template engines) but we don't think that merging them would be a good fit because there are big differences in the architecture, codebase, philosophy and history; as you have suggested we are going to include a sentence that explains the relationship with Velocity in our proposal Regards, Jacopo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
It's kind of OT, but Freemarker *is* a single jar with no dependencies. (All the dependencies are optional. Like if you don't use it with Servlets, it wont look for Serlvet classes.) Saturday, May 23, 2015, 1:17:47 AM, Julian Hyde wrote: Yes, I recently needed a lightweight templating engine (a single jar with no dependencies). I considered Freemarker, but rejected it. A freemarker-lite module would have hit the spot. Templating may not be sexy anymore, but it is useful for a wide variety of tasks, and it's not going away. Julian On May 22, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Ted Dunning ted.dunn...@gmail.com wrote: As an interesting aside, increasing the scope of Freemarker might improve sexiness. Consider extending to be a Scala templating engine. Or some similar small effort that ropes in a new community. On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: Some misc comments on the great feedback we have received so far (thanks to all for your help and interest): * Sergio, Ralph, we are happy to have you as mentors of Freemarker. I have edited the proposal document to include you in the mentors group; five mentors is plenty, so we should be good under this aspect. Jacques, you offered to mentor in another thread; thanks but for mentoring it's required to be a member of the IPMC or of the ASF * I agree with Bertrand and Ted that it will be mandatory for this project to build a larger community: in fact we are aware about this and are determined to work hard to grow an healthy (even if small) community, if we will be accepted in the Incubator; some good ideas have been proposed in this thread by John and Chris about how to do this and we will discuss other ideas as well * Julian and Ralph mentioned Velocity as a somewhat similar project; it is definitely true that there are similarities in scope (they are both Java template engines) but we don't think that merging them would be a good fit because there are big differences in the architecture, codebase, philosophy and history; as you have suggested we are going to include a sentence that explains the relationship with Velocity in our proposal Regards, Jacopo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
That's a good point. And these are also the things that are good fits for new committers (as opposed to evolving the core). With similar logic I'm looking for people who want to focus on improving Spring MVC integration for example. Or even Sturts integration (last time I saw it, it made no justice for FM). Now it might sounds like a chicken-egg problem (if *I* don't do it, there will be no committers, etc.), but of course I try to stick to core development in the little time I find for Freemarker. So finding contributors for these kind of extension and tooling stuff is one thing I hope for in this process. Saturday, May 23, 2015, 1:04:57 AM, Ted Dunning wrote: As an interesting aside, increasing the scope of Freemarker might improve sexiness. Consider extending to be a Scala templating engine. Or some similar small effort that ropes in a new community. On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: Some misc comments on the great feedback we have received so far (thanks to all for your help and interest): * Sergio, Ralph, we are happy to have you as mentors of Freemarker. I have edited the proposal document to include you in the mentors group; five mentors is plenty, so we should be good under this aspect. Jacques, you offered to mentor in another thread; thanks but for mentoring it's required to be a member of the IPMC or of the ASF * I agree with Bertrand and Ted that it will be mandatory for this project to build a larger community: in fact we are aware about this and are determined to work hard to grow an healthy (even if small) community, if we will be accepted in the Incubator; some good ideas have been proposed in this thread by John and Chris about how to do this and we will discuss other ideas as well * Julian and Ralph mentioned Velocity as a somewhat similar project; it is definitely true that there are similarities in scope (they are both Java template engines) but we don't think that merging them would be a good fit because there are big differences in the architecture, codebase, philosophy and history; as you have suggested we are going to include a sentence that explains the relationship with Velocity in our proposal Regards, Jacopo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
As an interesting aside, increasing the scope of Freemarker might improve sexiness. Consider extending to be a Scala templating engine. Or some similar small effort that ropes in a new community. On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: Some misc comments on the great feedback we have received so far (thanks to all for your help and interest): * Sergio, Ralph, we are happy to have you as mentors of Freemarker. I have edited the proposal document to include you in the mentors group; five mentors is plenty, so we should be good under this aspect. Jacques, you offered to mentor in another thread; thanks but for mentoring it's required to be a member of the IPMC or of the ASF * I agree with Bertrand and Ted that it will be mandatory for this project to build a larger community: in fact we are aware about this and are determined to work hard to grow an healthy (even if small) community, if we will be accepted in the Incubator; some good ideas have been proposed in this thread by John and Chris about how to do this and we will discuss other ideas as well * Julian and Ralph mentioned Velocity as a somewhat similar project; it is definitely true that there are similarities in scope (they are both Java template engines) but we don't think that merging them would be a good fit because there are big differences in the architecture, codebase, philosophy and history; as you have suggested we are going to include a sentence that explains the relationship with Velocity in our proposal Regards, Jacopo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Or rather Apache Groovy :-) 2015-05-23 1:04 GMT+02:00 Ted Dunning ted.dunn...@gmail.com: As an interesting aside, increasing the scope of Freemarker might improve sexiness. Consider extending to be a Scala templating engine. Or some similar small effort that ropes in a new community. On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: Some misc comments on the great feedback we have received so far (thanks to all for your help and interest): * Sergio, Ralph, we are happy to have you as mentors of Freemarker. I have edited the proposal document to include you in the mentors group; five mentors is plenty, so we should be good under this aspect. Jacques, you offered to mentor in another thread; thanks but for mentoring it's required to be a member of the IPMC or of the ASF * I agree with Bertrand and Ted that it will be mandatory for this project to build a larger community: in fact we are aware about this and are determined to work hard to grow an healthy (even if small) community, if we will be accepted in the Incubator; some good ideas have been proposed in this thread by John and Chris about how to do this and we will discuss other ideas as well * Julian and Ralph mentioned Velocity as a somewhat similar project; it is definitely true that there are similarities in scope (they are both Java template engines) but we don't think that merging them would be a good fit because there are big differences in the architecture, codebase, philosophy and history; as you have suggested we are going to include a sentence that explains the relationship with Velocity in our proposal Regards, Jacopo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Guillaume Laforge Groovy Project Manager Product Ninja Advocate at Restlet http://restlet.com Blog: http://glaforge.appspot.com/ Social: @glaforge http://twitter.com/glaforge / Google+ https://plus.google.com/u/0/114130972232398734985/posts
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Some misc comments on the great feedback we have received so far (thanks to all for your help and interest): * Sergio, Ralph, we are happy to have you as mentors of Freemarker. I have edited the proposal document to include you in the mentors group; five mentors is plenty, so we should be good under this aspect. Jacques, you offered to mentor in another thread; thanks but for mentoring it's required to be a member of the IPMC or of the ASF * I agree with Bertrand and Ted that it will be mandatory for this project to build a larger community: in fact we are aware about this and are determined to work hard to grow an healthy (even if small) community, if we will be accepted in the Incubator; some good ideas have been proposed in this thread by John and Chris about how to do this and we will discuss other ideas as well * Julian and Ralph mentioned Velocity as a somewhat similar project; it is definitely true that there are similarities in scope (they are both Java template engines) but we don't think that merging them would be a good fit because there are big differences in the architecture, codebase, philosophy and history; as you have suggested we are going to include a sentence that explains the relationship with Velocity in our proposal Regards, Jacopo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
On May 22, 2015, at 7:31 PM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: Can the requirements for getting out from incubation successfully be quantified? For the kind of project like this? I think that what Ted was referring to, when he mentioned the voting requirements, is that a top level project, in order to operate properly and being able to publish releases, needs at least 3 positive votes from its PMC members. Freemarker will definitely need to build a group of committers and PMC membesr and in my opinion the Incubator is the right place to be to build an healthy, even if small, community. And this is probably the only real challenge, and an exciting one, that this project will have to face in order to successfully graduate out of incubation. Regards, Jacopo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Technically (i.e., in source code), I don't think Velocity and Freemarker can share much. It seems that they kind of share fate though. Apparently, everyone has something more important to contribute to. And that's fine, I say, because what put these template engines into the spotlight 15(?) years ago was Web MVC, and legacy JSP's deficiencies to server that paradigm. It was a hot topic back then. But nowadays, just like in the case of Velocity (apparently), finding guys who want to hack this project for free after coding all day at the workplace, and instead of being with their families and all that, is, well... challenging. And it seems companies don't care to invest either by putting paid developers on it. (Certainly the same companies wouldn't be too happy if Freemarker is suddenly EOL-ed, though.) I guess there's some kind lower bar in project sexiness and buzzwordyness under which life just stops when it comes to contributions. Those same properties aren't needed for the project being heavily used though. So that's where we stand. But does it mean these projects should die? I don't think so. Does it mean that these projects are not for Apache? I don't know that, you tell me! Surely I don't want FM to go into incubation if failure is the most probable outcome. Can the requirements for getting out from incubation successfully be quantified? For the kind of project like this? -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Friday, May 22, 2015, 2:44:03 AM, Ralph Goers wrote: I used to use Apache Velocity. However, it hasn’t had a release since 2010 and the overall project activity has been minimal for years. As a consequence of that, and a feature that was missing, I recently switched to using Freemarker for some templating work I needed to do. The only reason I mention Velocity is I am wondering what relationship these two projects should have, if any. I am also concerned that if interest in development of Freemarker is decreasing is it going to suffer the same fate? I guess what I am wondering is if there is some way these two communities and/or technologies could combine? FWIW, I’d be happy to mentor this project. If I had the time I know I’d want to commit, but that has been in extremely short supply of late. Ralph On May 21, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. 4 Mentors is a good number, though! It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal addresses this issue at length. https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the Apache Way governance model and being part of the ASF (together with other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring new life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and improvements of the Freemarker codebase. I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at incubating. The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a large user base and wide adoption. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
As a very satisfied Freemarker user, I'm excited to see this proposal! I agree with the feedback that it would be helpful to have more committers. Marmotta mentioned that they use it, so I wonder if you could draw some interest from members of that community to join as initial committers. Are there other Apache projects that already use Freemarker? --Chris Nauroth On 5/21/15, 9:44 AM, jler...@apache.org jler...@apache.org wrote: Le 21/05/2015 16:29, John D. Ament a écrit : On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:11 AM Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total contributors. https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be interested in joining the proposal? Actually the project is currently at SourceForge as you can see at http://freemarker.org/ and the team is there https://sourceforge.net/p/freemarker/wiki/Home/ I guess some members at least will be interested... Jacques PS: maybe a duplicate, I used my non a.o address on another email, sorry for the noise in case -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
The guys who you see on sf.net or GitHub with commit rights has moved on to do different things, except me and one other guy who is mostly a Web designer professionally. That's one of the reasons why I though that I give it a shot, and see if being an ASF project makes the project more visible/appealing for contributors. I don't know what the experience with that is. Sometimes we get a patch from someone BTW, but that doesn't make the sender a committer of course. Finding people who will work on Freemarker for a longer time seems to be a tricky business, despite that the user base is big. Well, MVC template engines is not the hot topic nowadays, but they are still heavily used. Anyway, I will ping some earlier contributors then. Regarding the other question, yes, there are ASF projects who build on FreeMarker, like OFBiz for example. (And then of course Struts supports it next to JSP and Velocity.) -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Thursday, May 21, 2015, 8:03:03 PM, Chris Nauroth wrote: As a very satisfied Freemarker user, I'm excited to see this proposal! I agree with the feedback that it would be helpful to have more committers. Marmotta mentioned that they use it, so I wonder if you could draw some interest from members of that community to join as initial committers. Are there other Apache projects that already use Freemarker? --Chris Nauroth On 5/21/15, 9:44 AM, jler...@apache.org jler...@apache.org wrote: Le 21/05/2015 16:29, John D. Ament a écrit : On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:11 AM Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total contributors. https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be interested in joining the proposal? Actually the project is currently at SourceForge as you can see at http://freemarker.org/ and the team is there https://sourceforge.net/p/freemarker/wiki/Home/ I guess some members at least will be interested... Jacques PS: maybe a duplicate, I used my non a.o address on another email, sorry for the noise in case -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
I am another happy user of Freemarker. Calcite, Drill and Phoenix all use it as a pre-processor, to stitch together SQL grammar files. It’s worth reading http://freemarker.org/whoWeAre.html. It gives a sense of how the Freemarker community has self-governed and evolved over its long history, and also their diligence in addressing IP issues. I think it indicates their suitability as an Apache project. I think the Relationships with Other Apache Products” section should note that Freemarker has a similar purpose to Velocity. Not that similarity with an existing project would prevent acceptance into Apache. Julian On May 21, 2015, at 11:44 AM, Daniel Dekany ddek...@freemail.hu wrote: The guys who you see on sf.net or GitHub with commit rights has moved on to do different things, except me and one other guy who is mostly a Web designer professionally. That's one of the reasons why I though that I give it a shot, and see if being an ASF project makes the project more visible/appealing for contributors. I don't know what the experience with that is. Sometimes we get a patch from someone BTW, but that doesn't make the sender a committer of course. Finding people who will work on Freemarker for a longer time seems to be a tricky business, despite that the user base is big. Well, MVC template engines is not the hot topic nowadays, but they are still heavily used. Anyway, I will ping some earlier contributors then. Regarding the other question, yes, there are ASF projects who build on FreeMarker, like OFBiz for example. (And then of course Struts supports it next to JSP and Velocity.) -- Thanks, Daniel Dekany Thursday, May 21, 2015, 8:03:03 PM, Chris Nauroth wrote: As a very satisfied Freemarker user, I'm excited to see this proposal! I agree with the feedback that it would be helpful to have more committers. Marmotta mentioned that they use it, so I wonder if you could draw some interest from members of that community to join as initial committers. Are there other Apache projects that already use Freemarker? --Chris Nauroth On 5/21/15, 9:44 AM, jler...@apache.org jler...@apache.org wrote: Le 21/05/2015 16:29, John D. Ament a écrit : On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:11 AM Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total contributors. https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be interested in joining the proposal? Actually the project is currently at SourceForge as you can see at http://freemarker.org/ and the team is there https://sourceforge.net/p/freemarker/wiki/Home/ I guess some members at least will be interested... Jacques PS: maybe a duplicate, I used my non a.o address on another email, sorry for the noise in case -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:11 AM Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total contributors. https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be interested in joining the proposal? -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
In Marmotta we extended Freemarker to be able to use LDPath expressions inside the template language. So good to see the project moving in ASF :-) If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member). Cheers, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Jacopo Cappellato jacopo.cappell...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, my name is Jacopo Cappellato, I am an ASF member and the PMC chair of Apache OFBiz. As the proposal's champion, I would like to open up a discussion thread on the proposal for Freemarker to join ASF as an incubating project. The proposal is available here: https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal I would like to thank the co-authors Dániel Dékány, David Jones and Jean-Frederic Clere. Thanks in advance for your time! Jacopo Cappellato - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Sergio Fernández Partner Technology Manager Redlink GmbH m: +43 6602747925 e: sergio.fernan...@redlink.co w: http://redlink.co
[DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Hi all, my name is Jacopo Cappellato, I am an ASF member and the PMC chair of Apache OFBiz. As the proposal's champion, I would like to open up a discussion thread on the proposal for Freemarker to join ASF as an incubating project. The proposal is available here: https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal I would like to thank the co-authors Dániel Dékány, David Jones and Jean-Frederic Clere. Thanks in advance for your time! Jacopo Cappellato - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. 4 Mentors is a good number, though! It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal addresses this issue at length. https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the Apache Way governance model and being part of the ASF (together with other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring new life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and improvements of the Freemarker codebase. I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at incubating. The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a large user base and wide adoption. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
I used to use Apache Velocity. However, it hasn’t had a release since 2010 and the overall project activity has been minimal for years. As a consequence of that, and a feature that was missing, I recently switched to using Freemarker for some templating work I needed to do. The only reason I mention Velocity is I am wondering what relationship these two projects should have, if any. I am also concerned that if interest in development of Freemarker is decreasing is it going to suffer the same fate? I guess what I am wondering is if there is some way these two communities and/or technologies could combine? FWIW, I’d be happy to mentor this project. If I had the time I know I’d want to commit, but that has been in extremely short supply of late. Ralph On May 21, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. 4 Mentors is a good number, though! It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal addresses this issue at length. https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the Apache Way governance model and being part of the ASF (together with other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring new life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and improvements of the Freemarker codebase. I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at incubating. The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a large user base and wide adoption. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Incubation is a fine idea here. I think that the project is at high risk of not making it to top-level because of the voting requirements, but if the committer and PMC can be built, it should be a fine (quiet) project. And it should never be viewed as a failure or even a problem for a project to leave incubation in some other direction than as a top-level project. Apache is right for some and not for others. On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Ralph Goers ralph.go...@dslextreme.com wrote: I used to use Apache Velocity. However, it hasn’t had a release since 2010 and the overall project activity has been minimal for years. As a consequence of that, and a feature that was missing, I recently switched to using Freemarker for some templating work I needed to do. The only reason I mention Velocity is I am wondering what relationship these two projects should have, if any. I am also concerned that if interest in development of Freemarker is decreasing is it going to suffer the same fate? I guess what I am wondering is if there is some way these two communities and/or technologies could combine? FWIW, I’d be happy to mentor this project. If I had the time I know I’d want to commit, but that has been in extremely short supply of late. Ralph On May 21, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. 4 Mentors is a good number, though! It's true that there aren't many initial committers, but the proposal addresses this issue at length. https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal#Known_Risks While it continues to have a large user base, the active developer community has become rather small at this point, and we think that the Apache Way governance model and being part of the ASF (together with other projects that are already using Freemarker) would help to bring new life and energy to the project to better support the maintenance and improvements of the Freemarker codebase. I think this is a reasonable plan and definitely worth a shot at incubating. The Incubator has a mixed history with podlings that start small, but Freemarker has an advantage over many of those because it begins with a large user base and wide adoption. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Le 21/05/2015 16:29, John D. Ament a écrit : On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:11 AM Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total contributors. https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be interested in joining the proposal? Actually the project is currently at SourceForge as you can see at http://freemarker.org/ and the team is there https://sourceforge.net/p/freemarker/wiki/Home/ I guess some members at least will be interested... Jacques PS: maybe a duplicate, I used my non a.o address on another email, sorry for the noise in case -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Freemarker Incubation proposal
Le 21/05/2015 16:29, John D. Ament a écrit : On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:11 AM Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Sergio Fernández wik...@apache.org wrote: ...If you'd need any other mentor, I'm happy to help there (I'm Incubator PMC and ASF Member)... Currently I see three mentors and two committers at https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FreemarkerProposal, I'm not involved in that podling but it looks to me that additional committers might be more useful than more mentors. From looking at their graphs, on github, they have 5 total contributors. https://github.com/freemarker/freemarker/graphs/contributors I'm wondering - would the others who aren't on the proposal be interested in joining the proposal? Actually the project is currently at SourceForge https://sourceforge.net/p/freemarker/wiki/Home/ as you see following http://freemarker.org/ Jacques -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
