Re: Incubator release task force
Hi, For people interested in working on this, the ongoing Bloodhound release vote has triggered some good discussion that would be great to capture somehow. BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Jukka Zitting jukka.zitt...@gmail.com wrote: ...I'd like to start fixing this by forming a release task force of a handful of volunteers who are ready to invest an hour or two per week to work onb) migrating /dist/incubator to svnpubsub by the end of this year... I'm interested in helping with that but I'd suggest starting from scratch on new docs in svnpubsub, in order to create a minimal set of docs that's understandable and maintainable. We'd keep the current docs around as the old docs and refer to them less and less and the new, smaller ones take shape. I'll discuss that in a separate thread. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 5:18 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Jukka Zitting jukka.zitt...@gmail.com wrote: ...I'd like to start fixing this by forming a release task force of a handful of volunteers who are ready to invest an hour or two per week to work onb) migrating /dist/incubator to svnpubsub by the end of this year... I'm interested in helping with that but I'd suggest starting from scratch on new docs in svnpubsub, in order to create a minimal set of docs that's understandable and maintainable. We'd keep the current docs around as the old docs and refer to them less and less and the new, smaller ones take shape. I'll discuss that in a separate thread. I'm in on this. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
Jukka Zitting wrote on Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 10:38:56 +0300: The existing Incubator release guide [1] is a noble effort, but I think it went wrong in trying to explain everything (even the table of contents is TL;DR, and parts of the page are already outdated) instead of just pointing to more authoritative information under http:://www.apache.org/dev/ and fixing/clarifying that documentation in-place where needed. Actually www.apache.org/dev/ has FOUR releas*.html pages... and I assume 3.5 of them are out of date. That's less than ideal. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
Hi, On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 1:44 AM, Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm sure I speak for Marvin when I say I would love to participate on a task force dedicated to producing such documentation, but I am also weary about writing about a whole bunch of hypotheticals that nobody (other than Roy) has a really good handle on anyway. That's a key reasons for why I think it would be a good idea for the task force to spend time looking at actual release candidates and helping podlings with the release process. If there's an issue that isn't clearly documented, then fix that, otherwise just point to existing docs on the matter. The existing Incubator release guide [1] is a noble effort, but I think it went wrong in trying to explain everything (even the table of contents is TL;DR, and parts of the page are already outdated) instead of just pointing to more authoritative information under http:://www.apache.org/dev/ and fixing/clarifying that documentation in-place where needed. I'm of course happy for volunteers to contribute in any ways they prefer, but as general guidance I'd be vary about the idea that simply writing more documentation, especially without a firm rooting in concrete problems, will help solve the issue. [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/releasemanagement.html BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
From a mobile device - forgive errors and terseness On Jul 26, 2012 11:07 PM, Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk To: general@incubator.apache.org Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:37 PM Subject: Re: Incubator release task force Marvin, While I (think I) can understand your concern (that it should be the mentors who are reviewing releases, not yet another group), I'd suggest that Jukka's approach might be a way to get there. Not for me- it is the podling's PPMC that needs to vet them properly, and we need to ensure that people who do a good job at that are suitably empowered to cast binding votes on release candidates. I can see why podlings will be challenged for IPMC votes the first time thru, but by the third release they should have enough IPMC participation in their podling that the thought of coming to general@ and begging for votes won't ever occur to them. +1 I can think of at least one case where we pushed a PPMC forward so he could help other podlings. I've seen at least four releases benefit from this move. We need to do it more, and I hope this task-force will start to role that social structure into the docs (e.g. encourage successful release managers to ask for IPMC membership). The reasons why we don't do this have nothing to do with the release process or its documentation- it's just social norms colliding from different areas of the ASF. The incubator release process is, at the moment, pretty fraught, and I suspect there are only a handful of people who really get it. I would It sucks for the same old tired rationale behind excluding competent peer reviewers from the halls of power here. Some of us think this is a core failing of the IPMC, others disagree. If Jukka can satisfy the anti-progressives and bring in more people willing to do a competent job of reviewing candidates simply because these people are trying to review other-podling candidates, more power to him. Again I will say that this is slightly missing the point about *competent* review versus a casual glance at licensing issues that someone unskilled in a codebase might AT-BEST provide. posit that one outcome of Jukka's suggestion is a simplified release process, which is likely to be understandable to a larger number of mentors, meaning you address your core issue. The release process *is* simple but laborious- it's supposed to be that way. But if you've done one successful release iterating on those learnings is considerably easier than trying to do it from scratch with just our bloated process docs. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Incubator release task force
Hi, The Incubator ships about half a dozen releases each month on average, but our release process is notoriously lengthy, fraught with problems, and badly documented. If this was any other project, we'd have had a well-oiled release process in place already years ago. Much of our extra release overhead can of course be attributed to the high release manager turnaround (ideally nobody would make more than one or at most a few incubating releases) and the different requirements (source layout, build process, packaging style, distribution channels, etc.) of different podlings. However, there's much that we could do that so far hasn't been done or has been sidetracked. For example, our current release guide [1] is the result of quite a bit of work, but without a clear vision accompanied with a process of incremental improvements it's become a mess that few people read, let alone understand. I'd like to start fixing this by forming a release task force of a handful of volunteers who are ready to invest an hour or two per week to work on a) helping podlings get their releases out, b) migrating /dist/incubator to svnpubsub by the end of this year as requested by infra, c) improving related documentation, and d) proposing updates to the Incubator release policy if needed to streamline the process. In concrete terms I'd like the task force to 1) be the first port of call for podlings who're failing to get enough +1s from their mentors and 2) to contribute a short updates (one sentence to one paragraph) on their progress for inclusion in the monthly Incubator board reports. Anyone interested? [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/releasemanagement.html BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
I like the idea, but I suggest to do it in a different way: Why not to have volunteers who are already mentoring different podlings with different sizes of both number of people and the size of code base, these mentors then volunteer: 1- Update the release process docs 2- Report their their experience Which is exactly what you said but the only change IMO is about who should volunteer On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Jukka Zitting jukka.zitt...@gmail.comwrote: Hi, The Incubator ships about half a dozen releases each month on average, but our release process is notoriously lengthy, fraught with problems, and badly documented. If this was any other project, we'd have had a well-oiled release process in place already years ago. Much of our extra release overhead can of course be attributed to the high release manager turnaround (ideally nobody would make more than one or at most a few incubating releases) and the different requirements (source layout, build process, packaging style, distribution channels, etc.) of different podlings. However, there's much that we could do that so far hasn't been done or has been sidetracked. For example, our current release guide [1] is the result of quite a bit of work, but without a clear vision accompanied with a process of incremental improvements it's become a mess that few people read, let alone understand. I'd like to start fixing this by forming a release task force of a handful of volunteers who are ready to invest an hour or two per week to work on a) helping podlings get their releases out, b) migrating /dist/incubator to svnpubsub by the end of this year as requested by infra, c) improving related documentation, and d) proposing updates to the Incubator release policy if needed to streamline the process. In concrete terms I'd like the task force to 1) be the first port of call for podlings who're failing to get enough +1s from their mentors and 2) to contribute a short updates (one sentence to one paragraph) on their progress for inclusion in the monthly Incubator board reports. Anyone interested? [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/releasemanagement.html BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Thanks - Mohammad Nour Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving - Albert Einstein
Re: Incubator release task force
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Jukka Zitting jukka.zitt...@gmail.com wrote: For example, our current release guide [1] is the result of quite a bit of work, but without a clear vision accompanied with a process of incremental improvements it's become a mess that few people read, let alone understand. I am interested in this task. In concrete terms I'd like the task force to 1) be the first port of call for podlings who're failing to get enough +1s from their mentors Please exclude me from this group[1]. Marvin Humphrey [1] I believe the approach is misguided, but don't wish to rehash the arguments, thereby delaying potential incremental progress on other fronts. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
Ditto. From: Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com To: general@incubator.apache.org Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 11:48 AM Subject: Re: Incubator release task force On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Jukka Zitting jukka.zitt...@gmail.com wrote: For example, our current release guide [1] is the result of quite a bit of work, but without a clear vision accompanied with a process of incremental improvements it's become a mess that few people read, let alone understand. I am interested in this task. In concrete terms I'd like the task force to 1) be the first port of call for podlings who're failing to get enough +1s from their mentors Please exclude me from this group[1]. Marvin Humphrey [1] I believe the approach is misguided, but don't wish to rehash the arguments, thereby delaying potential incremental progress on other fronts. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
As someone who is currently attempting to go through their first release, I am not really in the category of someone who could be in such a taskforce. However, I am very interested in seeing an improvement in the release documentation. I would certainly consider looking back over my recent experience to potentially offer suggestions for updating the documentation. It might not be a task that other first time release managers would want to add to their workload but, if this kind of contribution is seen as valuable, I would hope that it would not hurt to ask. Cheers, Gary On 07/26/2012 03:10 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote: Hi, The Incubator ships about half a dozen releases each month on average, but our release process is notoriously lengthy, fraught with problems, and badly documented. If this was any other project, we'd have had a well-oiled release process in place already years ago. Much of our extra release overhead can of course be attributed to the high release manager turnaround (ideally nobody would make more than one or at most a few incubating releases) and the different requirements (source layout, build process, packaging style, distribution channels, etc.) of different podlings. However, there's much that we could do that so far hasn't been done or has been sidetracked. For example, our current release guide [1] is the result of quite a bit of work, but without a clear vision accompanied with a process of incremental improvements it's become a mess that few people read, let alone understand. I'd like to start fixing this by forming a release task force of a handful of volunteers who are ready to invest an hour or two per week to work on a) helping podlings get their releases out, b) migrating /dist/incubator to svnpubsub by the end of this year as requested by infra, c) improving related documentation, and d) proposing updates to the Incubator release policy if needed to streamline the process. In concrete terms I'd like the task force to 1) be the first port of call for podlings who're failing to get enough +1s from their mentors and 2) to contribute a short updates (one sentence to one paragraph) on their progress for inclusion in the monthly Incubator board reports. Anyone interested? [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/releasemanagement.html BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
Great idea. For those interested in helping the documentation side of this you might find the task oriented documenation that the Rave project developed during incubation useful. This has already been successfully adopted by at least two other podlings. Of course it is project and build tool specific but as a template for other projects to adopt and adapt it may be useful. http://rave.apache.org/release-management.html On 26 July 2012 15:10, Jukka Zitting jukka.zitt...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, The Incubator ships about half a dozen releases each month on average, but our release process is notoriously lengthy, fraught with problems, and badly documented. If this was any other project, we'd have had a well-oiled release process in place already years ago. Much of our extra release overhead can of course be attributed to the high release manager turnaround (ideally nobody would make more than one or at most a few incubating releases) and the different requirements (source layout, build process, packaging style, distribution channels, etc.) of different podlings. However, there's much that we could do that so far hasn't been done or has been sidetracked. For example, our current release guide [1] is the result of quite a bit of work, but without a clear vision accompanied with a process of incremental improvements it's become a mess that few people read, let alone understand. I'd like to start fixing this by forming a release task force of a handful of volunteers who are ready to invest an hour or two per week to work on a) helping podlings get their releases out, b) migrating /dist/incubator to svnpubsub by the end of this year as requested by infra, c) improving related documentation, and d) proposing updates to the Incubator release policy if needed to streamline the process. In concrete terms I'd like the task force to 1) be the first port of call for podlings who're failing to get enough +1s from their mentors and 2) to contribute a short updates (one sentence to one paragraph) on their progress for inclusion in the monthly Incubator board reports. Anyone interested? [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/releasemanagement.html BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Ross Gardler (@rgardler) Programme Leader (Open Development) OpenDirective http://opendirective.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
Hi Gary... On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Gary Martin gary.mar...@wandisco.comwrote: As someone who is currently attempting to go through their first release, I am not really in the category of someone who could be in such a taskforce. However, I am very interested in seeing an improvement in the release documentation. I would certainly consider looking back over my recent experience to potentially offer suggestions for updating the documentation. It might not be a task that other first time release managers would want to add to their workload but, if this kind of contribution is seen as valuable, I would hope that it would not hurt to ask. Actually I believe you added another aspect that might not be covered by what Jukka suggested, which is people consuming information from such documentation and their feedback how much it is comprehensible and readable, so for sure such feedback would be great. Thanks for your suggestions :) Cheers, Gary On 07/26/2012 03:10 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote: Hi, The Incubator ships about half a dozen releases each month on average, but our release process is notoriously lengthy, fraught with problems, and badly documented. If this was any other project, we'd have had a well-oiled release process in place already years ago. Much of our extra release overhead can of course be attributed to the high release manager turnaround (ideally nobody would make more than one or at most a few incubating releases) and the different requirements (source layout, build process, packaging style, distribution channels, etc.) of different podlings. However, there's much that we could do that so far hasn't been done or has been sidetracked. For example, our current release guide [1] is the result of quite a bit of work, but without a clear vision accompanied with a process of incremental improvements it's become a mess that few people read, let alone understand. I'd like to start fixing this by forming a release task force of a handful of volunteers who are ready to invest an hour or two per week to work on a) helping podlings get their releases out, b) migrating /dist/incubator to svnpubsub by the end of this year as requested by infra, c) improving related documentation, and d) proposing updates to the Incubator release policy if needed to streamline the process. In concrete terms I'd like the task force to 1) be the first port of call for podlings who're failing to get enough +1s from their mentors and 2) to contribute a short updates (one sentence to one paragraph) on their progress for inclusion in the monthly Incubator board reports. Anyone interested? [1] http://incubator.apache.org/**guides/releasemanagement.htmlhttp://incubator.apache.org/guides/releasemanagement.html BR, Jukka Zitting --**--**- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.**apache.orggeneral-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.**orggeneral-h...@incubator.apache.org --**--**- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.**apache.orggeneral-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.**orggeneral-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Thanks - Mohammad Nour Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving - Albert Einstein
Re: Incubator release task force
Marvin, While I (think I) can understand your concern (that it should be the mentors who are reviewing releases, not yet another group), I'd suggest that Jukka's approach might be a way to get there. The incubator release process is, at the moment, pretty fraught, and I suspect there are only a handful of people who really get it. I would posit that one outcome of Jukka's suggestion is a simplified release process, which is likely to be understandable to a larger number of mentors, meaning you address your core issue. Just a thought. Upayavira On Thu, Jul 26, 2012, at 04:48 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Jukka Zitting jukka.zitt...@gmail.com wrote: For example, our current release guide [1] is the result of quite a bit of work, but without a clear vision accompanied with a process of incremental improvements it's become a mess that few people read, let alone understand. I am interested in this task. In concrete terms I'd like the task force to 1) be the first port of call for podlings who're failing to get enough +1s from their mentors Please exclude me from this group[1]. Marvin Humphrey [1] I believe the approach is misguided, but don't wish to rehash the arguments, thereby delaying potential incremental progress on other fronts. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: Marvin, While I (think I) can understand your concern (that it should be the mentors who are reviewing releases, not yet another group), I'd suggest that Jukka's approach might be a way to get there. The incubator release process is, at the moment, pretty fraught, and I suspect there are only a handful of people who really get it. I would posit that one outcome of Jukka's suggestion is a simplified release process, which is likely to be understandable to a larger number of mentors, meaning you address your core issue. It seems to me that the goal of this effort is to make it easier for podlings to produce appropriate releases, regardless of who reviews them. Just a thought. Upayavira On Thu, Jul 26, 2012, at 04:48 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Jukka Zitting jukka.zitt...@gmail.com wrote: For example, our current release guide [1] is the result of quite a bit of work, but without a clear vision accompanied with a process of incremental improvements it's become a mess that few people read, let alone understand. I am interested in this task. In concrete terms I'd like the task force to 1) be the first port of call for podlings who're failing to get enough +1s from their mentors Please exclude me from this group[1]. Marvin Humphrey [1] I believe the approach is misguided, but don't wish to rehash the arguments, thereby delaying potential incremental progress on other fronts. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
From: Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk To: general@incubator.apache.org Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:37 PM Subject: Re: Incubator release task force Marvin, While I (think I) can understand your concern (that it should be the mentors who are reviewing releases, not yet another group), I'd suggest that Jukka's approach might be a way to get there. Not for me- it is the podling's PPMC that needs to vet them properly, and we need to ensure that people who do a good job at that are suitably empowered to cast binding votes on release candidates. I can see why podlings will be challenged for IPMC votes the first time thru, but by the third release they should have enough IPMC participation in their podling that the thought of coming to general@ and begging for votes won't ever occur to them. The reasons why we don't do this have nothing to do with the release process or its documentation- it's just social norms colliding from different areas of the ASF. The incubator release process is, at the moment, pretty fraught, and I suspect there are only a handful of people who really get it. I would It sucks for the same old tired rationale behind excluding competent peer reviewers from the halls of power here. Some of us think this is a core failing of the IPMC, others disagree. If Jukka can satisfy the anti-progressives and bring in more people willing to do a competent job of reviewing candidates simply because these people are trying to review other-podling candidates, more power to him. Again I will say that this is slightly missing the point about *competent* review versus a casual glance at licensing issues that someone unskilled in a codebase might AT-BEST provide. posit that one outcome of Jukka's suggestion is a simplified release process, which is likely to be understandable to a larger number of mentors, meaning you address your core issue. The release process *is* simple but laborious- it's supposed to be that way. But if you've done one successful release iterating on those learnings is considerably easier than trying to do it from scratch with just our bloated process docs. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
On Jul 26, 2012, at 3:07 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote: From: Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk To: general@incubator.apache.org Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:37 PM Subject: Re: Incubator release task force Marvin, While I (think I) can understand your concern (that it should be the mentors who are reviewing releases, not yet another group), I'd suggest that Jukka's approach might be a way to get there. Not for me- it is the podling's PPMC that needs to vet them properly, and we need to ensure that people who do a good job at that are suitably empowered to cast binding votes on release candidates. I can see why podlings will be challenged for IPMC votes the first time thru, but by the third release they should have enough IPMC participation in their podling that the thought of coming to general@ and begging for votes won't ever occur to them. The reasons why we don't do this have nothing to do with the release process or its documentation- it's just social norms colliding from different areas of the ASF. The incubator release process is, at the moment, pretty fraught, and I suspect there are only a handful of people who really get it. I would It sucks for the same old tired rationale behind excluding competent peer reviewers from the halls of power here. Some of us think this is a core failing of the IPMC, others disagree. If Jukka can satisfy the anti-progressives and bring in more people willing to do a competent job of reviewing candidates simply because these people are trying to review other-podling candidates, more power to him. Again I will say that this is slightly missing the point about *competent* review versus a casual glance at licensing issues that someone unskilled in a codebase might AT-BEST provide. posit that one outcome of Jukka's suggestion is a simplified release process, which is likely to be understandable to a larger number of mentors, meaning you address your core issue. The release process *is* simple but laborious- it's supposed to be that way. But if you've done one successful release iterating on those learnings is considerably easier than trying to do it from scratch with just our bloated process docs. I think that the problem is navigating the documentation. Most IP and packaging questions have specific circumstances. It should be possible to look for answers using this data. As a mentor I would really like to be able to point to either a decision tree or matrix for how to include, produce and consume binary artifacts, build dependencies, and source license categories in svn, source releases, and unofficial binary artifacts. Podlings can then lookup the answer according to the circumstance. The answer can reference the bloated docs for the reasoning. To avoid creating meta-bloat these trees and matrices would need to be kept to an absolute minimum with broad categories. Regards, Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
- Original Message - From: Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net To: general@incubator.apache.org Cc: Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:33 PM Subject: Re: Incubator release task force On Jul 26, 2012, at 3:07 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote: From: Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk To: general@incubator.apache.org Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:37 PM Subject: Re: Incubator release task force Marvin, While I (think I) can understand your concern (that it should be the mentors who are reviewing releases, not yet another group), I'd suggest that Jukka's approach might be a way to get there. Not for me- it is the podling's PPMC that needs to vet them properly, and we need to ensure that people who do a good job at that are suitably empowered to cast binding votes on release candidates. I can see why podlings will be challenged for IPMC votes the first time thru, but by the third release they should have enough IPMC participation in their podling that the thought of coming to general@ and begging for votes won't ever occur to them. The reasons why we don't do this have nothing to do with the release process or its documentation- it's just social norms colliding from different areas of the ASF. The incubator release process is, at the moment, pretty fraught, and I suspect there are only a handful of people who really get it. I would It sucks for the same old tired rationale behind excluding competent peer reviewers from the halls of power here. Some of us think this is a core failing of the IPMC, others disagree. If Jukka can satisfy the anti-progressives and bring in more people willing to do a competent job of reviewing candidates simply because these people are trying to review other-podling candidates, more power to him. Again I will say that this is slightly missing the point about *competent* review versus a casual glance at licensing issues that someone unskilled in a codebase might AT-BEST provide. posit that one outcome of Jukka's suggestion is a simplified release process, which is likely to be understandable to a larger number of mentors, meaning you address your core issue. The release process *is* simple but laborious- it's supposed to be that way. But if you've done one successful release iterating on those learnings is considerably easier than trying to do it from scratch with just our bloated process docs. I think that the problem is navigating the documentation. Most IP and packaging questions have specific circumstances. It should be possible to look for answers using this data. As a mentor I would really like to be able to point to either a decision tree or matrix for how to include, produce and consume binary artifacts, build dependencies, and source license categories in svn, source releases, and unofficial binary artifacts. I'm sure I speak for Marvin when I say I would love to participate on a task force dedicated to producing such documentation, but I am also weary about writing about a whole bunch of hypotheticals that nobody (other than Roy) has a really good handle on anyway. Yes, it's far easier for podlings to repeat what some existing project has done than to recognize their situation as belonging to an abstract category we have addressed somehow here. I worry about arming the people who fuss about such stuff as if it were critical to address everything in *this* release instead of simply accepting a promise to fix certain things in the next. Podlings can then lookup the answer according to the circumstance. The answer can reference the bloated docs for the reasoning. To avoid creating meta-bloat these trees and matrices would need to be kept to an absolute minimum with broad categories. Regards, Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Incubator release task force
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 9:49 AM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: For those interested in helping the documentation side of this you might find the task oriented documenation that the Rave project developed during incubation useful. This has already been successfully adopted by at least two other podlings. Of course it is project and build tool specific but as a template for other projects to adopt and adapt it may be useful. http://rave.apache.org/release-management.html Thanks, Ross. Nearly every TLP documents and automates their release process eventually, and I think it makes sense for us to encourage podlings to tackle that task early on. The smoother the release process, the easier it is for other podling contributors to take a turn as release manager, which is a good way to integrate people. I would be up for distilling out the portions of that document which are universally applicable. Alternatively, we can simply link to the page where it is now, along with some other examples. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
