Re: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Howard M. Lewis Ship]

Marc Fluery is (or, at least, comes across as) a jerk with some good ideas.
Unlike most folks who have used Tapestry, he didn't ask for clarifications
or make suggestions or enter into a dialog ... he made demands.  When I
asked that he actually participate, he dropped off the list. He's definately
more of a hacker, really doesn't like the basic discipline of declaring
things before using them, type safety, etc.

I don't always javadoc accessor methods without side effects.  I don't
javadoc methods in implementations that are fully described in the
interface's javadoc.  If you look at the online Javadoc, not the code
comments, it's pretty darn complete.  I have a weak memory, so I always
comment as I go (or even comment first).

I wouldn't call the site ugly, and the docs *are* online, as HTML, PDF,
JavaDoc ... even the code coverage report (which includes source code).
There's a "Documentation" tab on the main frame.

I haven't worked for Primix in over a year.  Primix doesn't exist, they got
bought out by a bigger fish, BurntSand.  I believe they mostly do Windows
stuff, with some ATG thrown in.

- Original Message -
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 10:53 AM
Subject: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta


> So Tapestry seems to have attracted a healthy following and the
> attention of such notables as Marc Fleury (Whom I think is a technically
> proficient and thoroughly decent okay guy...and he likes altoids more
> than I do):
>
>
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1165034&forum_id=7644
>
> There is even potential synergy with another Jakarta project ;-):
>
>
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1142661&forum_id=7644
>
> Oh and they already use stuff from jakarta-commons (as opposed to
> apache-commons which is confusing ;-) )
>
> The project is pretty active:
>
> http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/index.php?report=months&group_id=4754
>
> There is the inevitable book deal that seems to be all the rage these
> days:
>
> http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html
>
> Hey I think I know that Christian Hall guy from somewhere ;-):
>
> http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html
>
> I like the code okay, it has Javadoc...  There are some methods that
> probably should be javadoc'd but aren't
>
>
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/tapestry/Tapestry/framework/s
rc/net/sf/tapestry/AbstractPage.java?rev=1.8&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-m
arkup
>
> Their website is ugly and doesn't have their docs directly online:
>
> tapestry.sourceforge.net
>
> Notes:
>
> 1. I didn't actually try and run it, i just looked at all the available
> online information.. (Sorry, don't have time to run it, I'm assuming
> user testimony is enough)
>
> Concerns:
>
> Tapestry started out as Primix foundation..  Is Howard still employed by
> Primix... would he still be working on it if he was no longer?
>
> Tapestry appears to have decent documentation...  Do we allow that
> around here? ;-)
>
> My biggest concern is they want to start following the "Apache way"
> after moving here.  In my opinion they have enough contributors, etc.
> I'd like to see them start voting and the such first, then reevaluate
> once they've been doing it a few months.  They might also want to
> investigate a home at JBoss if Apache doesn't work out.  I know those
> guys are expanding.
>
> All in all, as much as I don't really care for PULL methods...  This
> seems to be a healthy community, it seems to be reasonably well in line
> with Jakarta, and I think it would be a good fit.
>
> So for whats its worth +0 from me, and +1 if they start following the
> voting rules/etc in advance then move here.
>
> If they do that I will volunteer to help them out with bringing them
> into the fold and all, although I'm not a member.
>
> -Andy
>
> On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 09:35, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about growing
the
> > community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.
Everything
> > is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the ultimate
> > decision, preferably agreeing with it.
> >
> > I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't really
get
> > started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The
framework
> > does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so there
> > hasn't been a ne

Re: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 12:45, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> Marc Fluery is (or, at least, comes across as) a jerk with some good ideas.
> Unlike most folks who have used Tapestry, he didn't ask for clarifications
> or make suggestions or enter into a dialog ... he made demands.  When I
> asked that he actually participate, he dropped off the list. He's definately
> more of a hacker, really doesn't like the basic discipline of declaring
> things before using them, type safety, etc.
> 

;-)  I noted that as a positive.. . Yes, Marc lacks that little part of
the brain that prevents him from saying things that may offend others
(from what I observed), I also have this problem in some ways ;-).  I've
met him in person though, he's a nice guy and very bright.  He has a
certain charm about him that is hard to describe (abrasive yet...fun?). 

Other people I know also have issues, Andy Hunt (of pragmatic programmer
fame) recently put Object Oriented Programming on trial.  He also thinks
strong types are BS and that in fact Java isn't even actually strongly
typed (just enough to be annoying).  (I don't agree with him...just
stating this is a movement of some subscription)

Anyhow, I noted Marc's attention as a positive.  The fact that he looked
at it, whether or not he was good bad or indifferent, the fact that
notable people look at your project is a good thing..  It means you have
a good chance at building a healthy community..  (Via generating enough
attention) 

> I don't always javadoc accessor methods without side effects.  I don't
> javadoc methods in implementations that are fully described in the
> interface's javadoc.  If you look at the online Javadoc, not the code
> comments, it's pretty darn complete.  I have a weak memory, so I always
> comment as I go (or even comment first).
> 

Oh I didn't realize that.  I said most of the Javadoc was very
complete.  I just noticed some places where it wasn't. .  Documentation
isn't real big on Apache..  Its a ME thing..  (I don't get a binding
vote so it doesn't really matter what I think other than influencing any
like minded people)

> I wouldn't call the site ugly, and the docs *are* online, as HTML, PDF,
> JavaDoc ... even the code coverage report (which includes source code).
> There's a "Documentation" tab on the main frame.
> 

Sorry to insult you, I was just being silly when I called the site
ugly.  It actually uses colors that I can't really see (partially
colorblind) so I claim to hate those colors (certain shades of blue,
purple, etc all look black to me or are indistinguishable). 

Ha!  Sorry I missed it.  

> I haven't worked for Primix in over a year.  Primix doesn't exist, they got
> bought out by a bigger fish, BurntSand.  I believe they mostly do Windows
> stuff, with some ATG thrown in.
> 

Cool!  This is a positive.  What would be negative is if you said "yes I
work for them and will always work for them, but I'd abandon Tapestry to
the wolves if I didn't"...  

Just note... the process of becoming an Apache project is very very
painful (presently).  So don't get too discouraged.  I think Tapestry is
the most promising project I've seen proposed.  Unfortunately, there is
a random factor of politics that will come to play.

Again my biggest concern is your assertion that you should adopt the
voting rules, etc. after joining.  My opinion is that you should adopt
them, get them working.  It has worked the other way I believe, but just
my personal opinion.

-andy

> ----- Original Message -
> From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 10:53 AM
> Subject: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> 
> > So Tapestry seems to have attracted a healthy following and the
> > attention of such notables as Marc Fleury (Whom I think is a technically
> > proficient and thoroughly decent okay guy...and he likes altoids more
> > than I do):
> >
> >
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1165034&forum_id=7644
> >
> > There is even potential synergy with another Jakarta project ;-):
> >
> >
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1142661&forum_id=7644
> >
> > Oh and they already use stuff from jakarta-commons (as opposed to
> > apache-commons which is confusing ;-) )
> >
> > The project is pretty active:
> >
> > http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/index.php?report=months&group_id=4754
> >
> > There is the inevitable book deal that seems to be all the rage these
> > days:
> >
> > http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wik

Re: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Peter Donald]

On Thu, 1 Jan 1970 09:59, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Again my biggest concern is your assertion that you should adopt the
> voting rules, etc. after joining.  My opinion is that you should adopt
> them, get them working.  

+1

-- 
Cheers,

Peter Donald
Duct tape is like the force.  It has a light side, and a dark side, and
it binds the universe together ...
-- Carl Zwanzig 


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Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

So Tapestry seems to have attracted a healthy following and the
attention of such notables as Marc Fleury (Whom I think is a technically
proficient and thoroughly decent okay guy...and he likes altoids more
than I do): 

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1165034&forum_id=7644

There is even potential synergy with another Jakarta project ;-):

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1142661&forum_id=7644

Oh and they already use stuff from jakarta-commons (as opposed to
apache-commons which is confusing ;-) )

The project is pretty active:

http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/index.php?report=months&group_id=4754

There is the inevitable book deal that seems to be all the rage these
days:

http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html

Hey I think I know that Christian Hall guy from somewhere ;-):

http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html

I like the code okay, it has Javadoc...  There are some methods that
probably should be javadoc'd but aren't

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/tapestry/Tapestry/framework/src/net/sf/tapestry/AbstractPage.java?rev=1.8&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup

Their website is ugly and doesn't have their docs directly online:

tapestry.sourceforge.net

Notes:

1. I didn't actually try and run it, i just looked at all the available
online information.. (Sorry, don't have time to run it, I'm assuming
user testimony is enough)

Concerns:

Tapestry started out as Primix foundation..  Is Howard still employed by
Primix... would he still be working on it if he was no longer?

Tapestry appears to have decent documentation...  Do we allow that
around here? ;-)

My biggest concern is they want to start following the "Apache way"
after moving here.  In my opinion they have enough contributors, etc. 
I'd like to see them start voting and the such first, then reevaluate
once they've been doing it a few months.  They might also want to
investigate a home at JBoss if Apache doesn't work out.  I know those
guys are expanding.

All in all, as much as I don't really care for PULL methods...  This
seems to be a healthy community, it seems to be reasonably well in line
with Jakarta, and I think it would be a good fit.

So for whats its worth +0 from me, and +1 if they start following the
voting rules/etc in advance then move here.

If they do that I will volunteer to help them out with bringing them
into the fold and all, although I'm not a member.

-Andy

On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 09:35, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about growing the
> community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.  Everything
> is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the ultimate
> decision, preferably agreeing with it.
> 
> I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't really get
> started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The framework
> does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so there
> hasn't been a need to get involved.  A move to Jakarta will *force* a few
> people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other wise, by the
> rules, nothing will actually happen.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> 
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.
> Without
> > a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to ultimately
> > decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.
> 
> Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you come to
> Apache
> but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this model IMHO.
> It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache.
> 
> --
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter Donald
> --
>  Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence...
> --
> 
> 
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