Re: [gentoo-dev] Viability of other SCM/version control systems for big repo's
On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 21:23 +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:17:56 +0100 Patrick Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I've only tried svn with the cvs2svn script. | Importing with history took ~8h on a 500Mhz box (which surprised me | because I had heard it takes days). Doing checkouts caused about the | same load as cvs, but I have no data points on multi-user behaviour. The interesting part isn't really how long it takes to convert things or how long it takes to do a checkout, since they're in effect one time costs. Yes, but generating a realistic workload isn't trivial.If we had cvs logs to replay we might get some good data. I'm guessing we have at least a hundred full tree updates and a thousand commits for every full checkout... Provide us with a script to generate partial updates/commits and I think many people will just run it for fun ... Maybe the nice Infra dudes could provide cvs snapshots for testing? Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] glep 42 (news) round six
On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 09:57 -0500, Philip Webb wrote: You are encouraged to reply to this thread saying I agree with ciaranm that repository IDs should not be allowed to contain spaces. No problem at all there (smile): spaces in names are A Bad Thing for Unix, as they conflict with the basic format of the command-line were introduced by M$ (Mac ?) to make things easier for idiots. So you're saying long filenames were invented by Microsoft for Windows 95? ;-) As long as programmers don't assume that filenames won't have spaces I don't see the problem The proper procedure for Unix-type systems is to use an underline symbol. Which standard says that, and how silly is that? We're past the 80s, there's no reason to limit filenames to alphanumeric (as I think with the same reasoning you'd forbid unicode ...) Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (I can kill you with my brain) Does your brain really contain that many viruses ... ? Only because it runs Windows ;-) -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
[gentoo-dev] Optimizing performance
Hi all, I was wondering if there are any sane ways to optimize the performance of a Gentoo system. Overoptimization (the well known -O9 -fomgomg CFLAGS etc.) tends to make things unstable, which is of course not what we want. The easy way out would be buying faster hardware, but that is usually not an option ;-) So ... what can be done to get the stable maximum out of your hardware? In my experience (x86 centric - do other arches have different problems?) the following is stable, but not necessarily the optimum: - don't overtweak CFLAGS. -O2 -march=$your_cpu_family seems to be on average the best, -O3 is often slower and can cause bugs - don't do anything with ASFLAGS, LDFLAGS. This causes weird random breakage (e.g. LDFLAGS=-O1 causes prelink to fail with absurd errors) and doesn't give a noticeable performance boost - check that all IDE disks use DMA mode, otherwise they are limited to ~16M/s with a huge CPU usage penalty. Sometimes (application-specific) increasing the readahead with hdparm gives a huge throughput boost. - kernel tweaks like preempt may increase the responsiveness of the system, but often reduce throughput and may have unexpected sideeffects like random audio stutter as well as random kernel crashes ;-) - kernel tweaks like setting swappiness or using a different I/O scheduler (CFQ, deadline) should help, but I'm not aware of any real benchmarks except microbenchmarks (can create 1M files 10% faster! - yes, but how does it behave with a normal workload?) - using a smarter filesystem can dramatically improve performance at the potential cost of reliability. As data on FS reliability is hard to find from unbiased sources this becomes a religious issue ... migrating from ext3 to reiserfs makes emerge sync extremely much faster, but is reiserfs sustainable? Are there any application-specific tweaks (e.g. use the prefork MPM with apache2)? What is known to break things, what has usually beneficial behaviour? Are there any useful benchmarks that show the performance difference between different settings? Thanks for your input, Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Optimizing performance
On Thu, 2005-12-15 at 14:43 +0100, Francesco Riosa wrote: having more than one disk or a lot of memory add very interesting addition, read raid 0 (stripe) or tmpfs for working data that does'nt need a backup fex: $PORTIR, /var/tmp ... tmpfs has miserable performance when larger than RAM iirc - you'd need 5G for openoffice :-) I've found that preemption with the new standard 250Hz of the kernel is suitable for mostly needs, however no server here has preemption enabled ;-) My system still manages to run a DVD at a load of ~8, so from my point of view that is not a problem (2Ghz Athlon ... one of the faster machines I'd say as many people still use ~500Mhz) What causes more problems are packages that become slow on update - e.g. gtk+ 2.8 is _really_ slow (takes a few seconds to redraw apps that took 1sec with 2.6 ... :-( ) what is a normal workload ? Define it and creating tests should not be so difficult, then there are apps that can help to profiling, thinking at bootchart, sysproof, memproof, valgrind ... strace I guess then you'd have to split into server / desktop / ... reiserfs is sustainable, at least for 99.999% of uses, last reiserfs bug on very high load (and with degraded raid5) is dated 4 years ago here. However upstream is going to the route of reiser4, much more complex, and much more unstable, latest problems where in 2.6.14, additionally no devs in gentoo are (will?) support it the patch for grub it's still not in place I think. reiser4 is new and untested, I'd keep away from it until it has shown its reliability. Also in my (limited) testing it is relatively slow (about the same speed as reiser3) Are there any application-specific tweaks (e.g. use the prefork MPM with apache2)? What is known to break things, what has usually beneficial behaviour? Are there any useful benchmarks that show the performance difference between different settings? is'n there ab [1] for apache testing ? Yes, but that's apache specific and is quite hard to use correctly. (but very nice for slashdotting simulation ;-) ) Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Misquoted in the GWN
On Mon, 2005-11-28 at 17:54 +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 10:48:01 +0100 Henrik Brix Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | A friend of mine just alerted me to the fact, that I am featured in | this weeks Gentoo Weekly News. Odd, I thought, noone had asked me | anything regarding the GWN... Not the first time this has happened... Not the first time that people whine. Meh. | I suggest that in the future, all developers who are directly quoted | in the GWN are contacted prior to posting the quotes. I realize that | this will put a bit more work load on the GWN authors, but it should | be as simple as sending a mail with the relevant section quoted for | the developer to accept. Also, why not bring back the post to -core requirement? Make it a rule that it can't be labelled as an official Gentoo publication unless it gets some review... Why not bring back the the GWN is a community thing and YOU can also contribute!!! mentality? That Ulrich and I have made some suboptimal decisions in the past is a fact, but why aren't there more contributors to the GWN so that we two aren't single points of failure? /me returns to lurking in some dark caves -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 12:14 +, kang wrote: Now people can also use NCSA Mosaic. It's valid as long as you can run it. But a browser with vulns, unsupported by the vendor, with a broken CSS, I think you do not have to support it. Well of course, if you like it just do it ;) Hmmm.. I think we should only support standard HTML/XHTML/CSS. No need to add fixes for known-broken browsers I guess. (And no old cruft where avoidable) Oh btw, *great* progress on the design. Yess, it's getting somewhere. - The bottom boxes are uneven in size, it looks a bit strange. Also i still wonder about this whole concept, as its not the first place you look for links. I'll take an example: I'd have expected those in a nice collapsed menu on top with annoying mouseOver expansion (I hate that because if you move your mouse across the page you have one expanded menu hiding whatever is below) Like this they are out of sight and on smaller screens not directly visible without scrolling. http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml I am in 1024x768 and I don't see the boxes if I don't scroll. I don't think you acn reduce every page so that you see them without scrolling. Unfortunately I dont see any good solution. The common solution is a menu on the left side, but then it gets tricky with expanding/collapsing and keeping the whole menu visible. Maybe it'll stay this way. I would put more than 2 news items on the front page then, even if it also hides the boxes a bit on 800x600 or 1024, because it doesnt give much info to have 2 items per news page ;) I guess that's part of it being a prototype and all that ;-) Some usability issues: The top right textlinks are too dark and quite small. They aren't easily readable and don't present themselves as clickable items (especially with the dotted line below them they look like random text) The manage / customize / optimize / interact boxes on the startpage don't give any useful information (all those links are available in the unreadable text above and in the nice boxes at the bottom. Also their format looks like GoogleAds to me, so I mentally filed them away as more ads. As they don't appear anywhere else on the website I'd just remove them. Another (minor) inconsistency is that on the startpage the date stamp on the left shifts the text to the right, but all other subpages have the text left-aligned. That is unexpected, I'd like all pages to behave consistently. This also includes the infinity logo that's only in one place (why have it at all then?) Apart from that I like the spartan look. Keep up the good work! Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Interactive emerge
On Mon, 2005-10-03 at 19:39 +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 23:15:37 +0900 Georgi Georgiev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Does it seem like it is time for RESTRICT=interactive. Such ebuilds | would refuse to emerge if stdout is not a tty. If only there was | use-flag based RESTRICT... No, because then that would encourage even more people to abuse the system and write incorrect ebuilds. IMHO this could be enforced by some policy (don't use RESTRICT=interactive unless you really need it and some_group has given you the ok)... No, it shouldn't. interactive ebuilds make remote updating very time-consuming (you have to check wether it wants you to interact with i or not yet) and are usually not needed - just ask the user to run ebuild foo config (or whatever does thw job) manually. -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resolution - GTK Useflag Situation
On Sun, 2005-09-18 at 17:10 -0500, Albert Hopkins wrote: I have a different solution that should, no doubt, satisfy both sides: We fork Gentoo. Create a new distro, called GenOne. That has been done, it has become sentient and applied for developer status. You can reach it at [EMAIL PROTECTED] ;-) This distro will include only older wares such as GTK1, Kernel 2.4, libc5, XFree86, devfs, a.out binaries, DES passwords, etc. It will be just as good as Gentoo, but catered to old-timers and and those who prefer to reminisce about the good ol' days. So ... it'll be like Red Hat, only without the Hat? ;-) Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] first council meeting
On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 22:34 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: There is a difference between using package.mask and ~arch for ebuilds. The use of ~arch denotes an ebuild requires testing. The use of package.mask denotes that the application or library itself is deemed unstable. | Second: a) and b) doesn't match what's going on with large parts of | the tree Good time for package maintainers to start following policy properly, eh? Good time for policy to be adapted to match reality ;-) -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Bug 80905
On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 17:01 +0300, Ivan Yosifov wrote: On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 14:52 +0100, Daniel Drake wrote: are running vesafb-tng and have =1GB RAM then try turning off vesafb-tng Why ? Because of known bugs I'd guess? -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council meeting, Thursday 15th, 1900 UTC
On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 21:04 +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: Added by Grant Goodyear : glep40: Standardizing arch keywording across all archs Added by Brian Harring : glep33: Eclass Restructure/Redesign glep37: Virtuals Deprecation I'd like to see the following items added: glep 15: script repository (working prototype has existed for some time) QA: Preventing tree breakage and improving quality GLEP31 (The UTF-8 Glep) would be dependant on a QA team that can actually fix things and should be resurrected from its frozen state. Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council meeting, Thursday 15th, 1900 UTC
On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 15:53 -0500, Grant Goodyear wrote: Patrick Lauer wrote: [Mon Sep 12 2005, 03:08:53PM CDT] I'd like to see the following items added: glep 15: script repository (working prototype has existed for some time) I'm not quite sure what you're adding. GLEP 15 was approved quite some time ago. All that remains is to finish up the implementation. or rather move it from gentooexperimental.org to official gentoo infrastructure (?) QA: Preventing tree breakage and improving quality GLEP31 (The UTF-8 Glep) would be dependant on a QA team that can actually fix things and should be resurrected from its frozen state. Huh? Why should Mr_Bones_ need to go around fixing broken encodings? He just has to break the legs of the offending devs Would be better if (1) it wasn't Mr_Bones alone and (2) there was an agreed on policy so that (if needed) repeat offenders can be sanctioned (e.g. by flipping their commit bit) that of course needs some backing from the general dev population and devrel, also the policies should be properly defined so that noone can weasel out by invoking it's always been like this I hope I'm not alone in my quest for higher QA standards :-) wkr, Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] crap use flags in the profiles
On Mon, 2005-08-29 at 11:59 -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote: As I understood it, they were implemented to reduce the amount of work necessary in maintaining them. As it was back then, it required changes to an extremely large number of profiles every time a change was made to the default USE flags. Just a crazy idea - why not create a package containing some profiles? You can use the default profile, and if you want a different profile, emerge portage-profiles or whatever it is called and use that. I guess I've missed something obvious here? I honestly don't think it would be a good idea to forget the lessons of the past and start bloating the profiles with tons of desktop and server profiles, among anything else people would want. After all, as soon as we did a desktop profile, then we would have requests for gnome and kde sub-profiles. which are not much work if kde = desktop -gtk -gnome +kde As I stated earlier, it's easier to not provide *any* than to try to provide all of the ones that will inevitably be requested as soon as we start adding them. Or provide them in an extra ebuild that throws lots of warnings so that any users that don't read the warnings can be RESOLVED WONTFIXed? -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Bugzilla handling for maintainer-wanted things
On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 19:42 -0400, Nathan L. Adams wrote: [snip] What I see with Gentoo is this 'cathedral' being built where only those folks who have been 'approved' or 'blessed' as being l33t enough are allowed to review the code and actually cause a positive change when some bug is found. So you want to give every user who asks for it full CVS access? Uhm ... If you believe Chris Gianelloni's argument, then only those blessed developers who are also blessed by a particular group within Gentoo are allowed. Eventually the meritocracy degrades into a popularity contest. Nonsense. Every person that shows dedication and some basic skills can become developer If you want to argue for the fun of it, go debian yourself ;-) What I want is for Gentoo to be more of a 'bazaar' where anyone with a good idea gets listened to and anyone with a good patch gets their name in the credits Isn't that already what is done? Every good patch/bugfix will be assimilated if it does something useful in an understandable way ... Yes this is a volanteer distribution. That's a blessing, not a curse! That means that you DON'T HAVE DEADLINES. You can take the time to do it right instead of just 'code it up, test it once, and pray it really works'. Yes, so please shut up and let us do our thing ;-) wkr, Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] USE flags groups
On Thu, 2005-07-21 at 18:13 -0300, Herbert Fischer wrote: I see that the USE flags list is very big today but I don't know if it's growing too fast. So, I may think that someday Gentoo will need some mechanism to facilitate USE flags configuration. http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0029.html What do you think? There are still some problems in the handling of negatives, but the idea has been discussed a lot. Personally I'd really love to have such a feature ... USE=@multimedia @kde instead of searching 36 different flags ... hth, Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-embedded] Interactive command
On Thu, 2005-07-14 at 01:13 -0400, Kristian Benoit wrote: What I want is emerge busybox uclibc vanilla-sources nano. Should unpack only the 3 first packages, show me busybox menuconfig, uclibc menuconfig and vanilla-sources menuconfig and only then perform the rest of the installation as usual (without re-unpacking the 3 packages). I really really hope that you want this to be a totally optional feature that is never ever enabled by default. When I run emerge -uD world on a server I don't accept any ebuild waiting for interactive input. For stagebuilding and other activities this behaviour is also unacceptable. And save the configs for futur use. So if my configs does not fit my need, re-emerging busybox with USE=savedconfig should get me the busybox menuconfig back using the previously configured .config. Patch the ebuilds with your .config But anyway, the question is not whether the idea is good or not, but how to get a menuconfig that works within ebuild.sh (called from spawn in portage_exec ... called from the user with ebuild or emerge)? *shudder* I hope this stays limited to your overlay. wkr, Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Software patents
On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 06:13 +0100, twofourtysix wrote: Mostly, I was hoping that all those people who seem more than happy to advocate something with *words* would be prepared to back them up with *actions*. I think it's a shame that Gentoo is prepared to encourage people to pester their politicians whilst simultaneously refusing to spend a few minutes practising what it preaches. Ok ... let's remove all software that might violate a european patent. As some people stated, the kernel will go. As far as I know glibc and gcc will be removed too. All programs using sockets could potentially be an abuse, so no network for you. No progress bars. Etc. etc. I think skel.ebuild will be among the few survivors - 30.000 patents don't leave much space for non-violating software, especially once you realize that many of those patents are for trivial ideas (which are unpatentable) Or in other words: Stop using Free Software since it's theft ;-) wkr, Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] app-admin/mbr.. what to do...
On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 01:41 +0900, Chris White wrote: I just saw a bug report flow by for app-admin/mbr and looked for maintainers. I found this: ChangeLog: 1 manson, 1 woodchip from jeeves. Now, I think those people are retired, or I need to get out more (or both). So what to do with said package. It looks pretty old and this user wants it bumped so... I'd do it but I have no solid test method and I really don't like putting out packages without one. I think this problem is not limited to this package. Maybe someone with some scripting skillz could create a list of all orphaned packages? (no metadata.xml, no active maintainer, ...) If anyone is interested, the bug number is here: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96254 Otherwise we should do something about the fate of this package. Either drop it or find a maintainer I guess. Always a drag to see packages getting dropped, but if noone maintains them there's not much that can be done. Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] app-admin/mbr.. what to do...
On Thu, 2005-06-16 at 11:13 +0200, Diego 'Flameeyes' Petten wrote: On Thursday 16 June 2005 10:53, Patrick Lauer wrote: Maybe someone with some scripting skillz could create a list of all orphaned packages? (no metadata.xml, no active maintainer, ...) I've learned with first-person experience that no metadata doesn't means that a package is orphaned... ok, but it's still a bug So maybe it's better said to developers: if you maintain something *please* add a metadata, or update it, so that who looks at bugs know who to ask to. For that we should have a list of all affected packages I think. Always a drag to see packages getting dropped, but if noone maintains them there's not much that can be done. Well maybe we can have a way to define latest portage version for removed package (a tag on cvs?) so that someone can prepare a weekly tarball of removed packages waiting for new maintainers or so on. you mean a repository of removed ebuilds? I don't know if that is a good idea, but it sure has some uses. But if I'm not mistaken files can be resurrected from cvs, so they are not lost, only less accessible. Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] chriswhite herd(?) status update
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 20:24 +0200, Andrej Kacian wrote: On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:49:28 +0900 Chris White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on a minor note, I was thinking of maybe a somewhat small comprehensive list of major problems and ways to solve them. I know we do have bugzilla, but bugzilla is kind of full of noise (look at all them bugs!). Therefore, I think a small page with major stuff like Oh my god, my stuff doesn't compile or It can't find my library! would help. Ways of solving it would also be nice. I was thinking of having the page archive things that are 1 month old and everything else is front page. Let me know what the thoughts are on that. Ok, that's it... That's a good idea, something like topic on #gentoo, but in form of a website (and perhaps a RSS feed?) I like the idea. Questions: - do we want that? - who will take care of it? wkr, Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
[gentoo-dev] Requests for status updates
Hi all, the last global status update was in January when most top-level projects posted a short overview of their progress and their rough roadmap to the -dev mailinglist. I'd like to ask all top-level projects (and all subprojects that want to) to present a short overview of what happened since January and how their roadmap looks at the moment. thanks, Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo metastructure reform poll is open
On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:22 +0100, Paul Waring wrote: On 6/8/05, Daniel Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Polls are open for the metastructure reform vote. All Gentoo developers are eligible to vote. Any particular reason why Gentoo users are not allowed to have a say? Because, if everything goes well, they won't even notice? hth, Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo metastructure reform poll is open
On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 08:59 -0700, Jim Northrup wrote: might I suggest not kicking #gentoo-dev visitors who ask for voice to speak to the devs without a 'rtfm go get a gentoo job' smokescreen ? I hope this was only a misunderstanding / miscommunication. #g-dev is already quite crowded and not a support channel like #gentoo. So voice is only given when you can convince a dev that you have a serious problem that can't be fixed by some RTFM'ing or the other support channels (#gentoo, #gentoo-bugs, ...) If your problem is easy, #gentoo or RTFM works much better. btw, hijacking a thread is also not nice. Please start a new thread when you wish to discuss a different problem and don't hijack another thread for that ... hth, Patrick (bonsaikitten) -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: New category proposal
On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 23:58 +0100, Stroller wrote:
On May 11, 2005, at 8:10 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
* Unique ID strings for packages, zynot style. Messy as hell though,
DEPEND=foo/bar {12379812AD7382164BD87678652438FC65E43A2} doesn't have
the same kind of ring to it...
Maybe I'm just a messy person, but I really like this.
So does Microsoft. The registry has many entries where 128bit (?)
object-IDs are used. Very interesting to debug.
It prevents upstream naming collisions
But reduces readability for humans to zero. We don't want that.
opens multiple categories per package
completely. Mr Harring will hate it,
At least you haven't tried to optimize it all by using XML ...
but the rest of us will use
`esearch -o %p\n | grep -e category -e keyword`.
*head explodes*
No.
As much as I like the idea of a better portage, a binary obfuscation
won't help. It might make portage more resilient to one kind of problem,
but forget debugging then.
Patrick
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