Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Hi, im sorry about creating a flamewar. But their are a view points that disturb me really: - The same installtion (networkless!) possibilites should be offered to the people who install via the shell (the oldschool an most often used way i believe), the ncurses-installer and the gtk-installer. I personally think a real Stage-3 would be the best, but it would be also good enough to have the possiblity to use the so called voodoo-scripts. We are Gentoo, not Windows, let us the Shell, Please don't play the role of the Force and the Clickadventure-Community. There is often not only one right way, regluary their are more. One on the Shell, NCURSES, QT, GTK and something between that over a totally other subset of librarys and programs ;-) The best way to solve problems, is a clear communication over officall channels like the gwn. - Just because a developer thinks it is good, it isn't good. Just because a User think it is good, it isn't good. If there are to less testers/volunters - here I'am! I will do what I can in my possiblities for Gentoo and the Community. Give me the the link to the next release, I will take a look on it. - Gentoo isn't User-Centric. Gentoo isn't Developer-Centric. Gentoo is used by a lot of users, because the love the system behind the CFLAGS/USEFLAGS and PORTS. Gentoo is used by a lot of developers, because the love the system behind the CFLAGS/USEFLAGS and PORTS, it is perfect for Coders. A lot of Users become also Developers. Your User, who try to become sb. who move sth. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Thu, 2006-10-12 at 20:06 +0200, Peter Weber wrote: - The same installtion (networkless!) possibilites should be offered to the people who install via the shell (the oldschool an most often used way i believe), the ncurses-installer and the gtk-installer. I personally think a real Stage-3 would be the best, but it would be also good enough to have the possiblity to use the so called voodoo-scripts. I'm going to repeat myself exactly once more, then I'm flagging this entire thread to /dev/null. I'm not interested in supporting anything other than what we currently support. I'm not interested in spending any more of my *volunteer* time supporting an installation method that I consider antiquated and bug-ridden. I am sick of wasting *my* time supporting the countless bugs from the old networkless capabilities. No amount of discussion will change this. If you want to change my mind, you are more than welcome to initiate negotiations on my compensation for not only building the required media, but also supporting it. You are also free to build the media and support it yourself. If you're unwilling to either pay me to do this, or do it yourself, then I simply don't care. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Do not top post, is rude. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting Peter Weber wrote: You seem to think that the discussion is around you, and your work :-) It is about Gentoo, please keep this in mind. Nobody says YOU have to make the work, or that you are doing sth. wrong. You could do the job, but you don't must do anything/everything alone. You want that Gentoo needs a internet-connection, and their should be now way to install Gentoo without access to the web? He wants people quit annoying him about frivolous things. Sorry, but simply: No. I'am complet againt this! I select OSS, because I want independence (from the web in this special chase). I accept your position, but I don't agree. His position: I won't do it, do yourself or pay. On Question: Is their a howto, a script or a offical guidline how you or other gentoo-devs build the Universal-Disc's, what must be included an so on? http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/catalyst/ Regards. -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Roy Bamford wrote: Dropping support for x86 i686 is a debate we need to have some time I suppose, its a question of when. There is clearly only a few users, besides myself using systems that old, since there were very few forums posts about the original 2006.1 x86 media not workign on P1 and AMD k6 based systems. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is using a pentium mmx as a router, so you better think twice about it :P -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 developer -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Simon Stelling wrote: Roy Bamford wrote: Dropping support for x86 i686 is a debate we need to have some time I suppose, its a question of when. There is clearly only a few users, besides myself using systems that old, since there were very few forums posts about the original 2006.1 x86 media not workign on P1 and AMD k6 based systems. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is using a pentium mmx as a router, so you better think twice about it :P But when was the last time you reinstalled it? :) -- Andrew Gaffneyhttp://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Installer Project Today's lesson in political correctness: Go asphyxiate on a phallus -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
The point is that if you build Gentoo to be developer-friendly rather than user-friendly, Gentoo will be replaced by something else. User-centric design is why Gentoo is/was different from everything else. Take away choices that people want and you take the Gentoo philosophy out of Gentoo itself. Kari Hazzard On Monday 09 October 2006 5:45 pm, Donnie Berkholz wrote: That's only true if you assume Gentoo developers are in this for the users and not for themselves and their own personal satisfaction. Thanks, Donnie -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Monday 09 October 2006 6:30 pm, Alec Warner wrote: I concur with Donnie here; Gentoo exists not because of Users, but because of (a subset of active) Developers. It isn't a statement that is meant to trash users (because you are quite helpful in many instances). But the naive thought that Gentoo revolves around users iswell, naive. Gentoo was here before there were thousands of users, in the unlikely event that you all switch distros, Gentoo will probably still be here. It will not, however, have anywhere near as many developers, nor will it have more than a fraction of the resources now available to it. Users are the reason people sponsor Gentoo, users are the reason people know Gentoo exists, whether you realise it or not. To make another argument; if I go buy a RHEL3 box set and then complain because the liveCD doesn't have some key programs (lets say cryptsetup-luks statically compiled so I can boot off of a USB key and encrypt my / partition), is the onus on them to release a new CD just for me? Hell I'm a paying customer! But they don't care. Well, that's simply bad customer service. Don't constrict your support organ because someone else's support organ operates poorly. That doesn't help anyone, not users, not devs. In any event, when was the decision made to kill the Universal LiveCD for x86 and replace it with the installer? I'd like to read the discussion. Kari Hazzard -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 23:30 -0400, Kari Hazzard wrote: User-centric design is why Gentoo is/was different from everything else. Take away choices that people want and you take the Gentoo philosophy out of Gentoo itself. If the design was in any way user-centric, then that was a side-effect of the design being developer-centric. The choices are all about enabling development and developers. The Gentoo philosophy is about empowerment -- we provide a platform for you to do what you want with it. That's our only promise, all the rest is just gravy. Rel. Eng. and others do what they do because, at its root, that's what they *want* to do -- that's how they exercise their own empowerment. Feel free to join in the fray and exercise your own :) Thanks, -- Seemant Kulleen Developer, Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On 10/10/06, Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the design was in any way user-centric, then that was a side-effect of the design being developer-centric. The choices are all about enabling development and developers. The Gentoo philosophy is about empowerment -- we provide a platform for you to do what you want with it. That's our only promise, all the rest is just gravy. Rel. Eng. and others do what they do because, at its root, that's what they *want* to do -- that's how they exercise their own empowerment. Feel free to join in the fray and exercise your own :) Or, to put it another way ... ... One aspect of the Gentoo Way(tm) is this: if you don't like how part of Gentoo works, the thing to do is to volunteer to become a developer, and work from the inside to change it. Best regards, Stu -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Kari Hazzard wrote: [Mon Oct 09 2006, 10:30:40PM CDT] User-centric design is why Gentoo is/was different from everything else. Take away choices that people want and you take the Gentoo philosophy out of Gentoo itself. Heh. You might want to read drobbins' Making the distribution articles (see http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml) sometime. Many of the original design decisions were intended to facilitate a very small number of developers in assembling and maintaining a sizeable meta-distribution. I think many of those decisions were quite inspired, but user-centric is a bit much, I think. All that said, we're not really trying to make things vastly harder on people. Many of the complaining e-mails I've read in this thread have complained without any specifics. If instead they were to say I'm wondering how I'll do 'blah' w/ the new CD, could somebody let me know the best way to do this, I suspect that everybody would be happier. -g2boojum- -- Grant Goodyear Gentoo Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76 pgpc4H0PoXf44.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Not going to happen. I'm many things, but a software developer is not one of them. I generally prefer to work on things like design and user psychology than actually being involved in the coding of it. You don't want me producing code for the project, trust me on that one. -- Kari Hazzard On Tuesday 10 October 2006 10:28 am, Seemant Kulleen wrote: If the design was in any way user-centric, then that was a side-effect of the design being developer-centric. The choices are all about enabling development and developers. The Gentoo philosophy is about empowerment -- we provide a platform for you to do what you want with it. That's our only promise, all the rest is just gravy. Rel. Eng. and others do what they do because, at its root, that's what they *want* to do -- that's how they exercise their own empowerment. Feel free to join in the fray and exercise your own :) Thanks, -- Seemant Kulleen Developer, Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Tuesday 10 October 2006 03:45, Kari Hazzard wrote: On Monday 09 October 2006 6:30 pm, Alec Warner wrote: I concur with Donnie here; Gentoo exists not because of Users, but because of (a subset of active) Developers. It isn't a statement that is meant to trash users (because you are quite helpful in many instances). But the naive thought that Gentoo revolves around users iswell, naive. Gentoo was here before there were thousands of users, in the unlikely event that you all switch distros, Gentoo will probably still be here. It will not, however, have anywhere near as many developers, nor will it have more than a fraction of the resources now available to it. Users are the reason people sponsor Gentoo, users are the reason people know Gentoo exists, whether you realise it or not. You miss the point entirely. Unpaid software authors do it because they want to use the software themselves. Those authors that publish their source generally do so because they see it as an overall waste of time for the proverbial wheel to be reinvented by others. I'd say they also do it because they are happy in the thought that 9 times out of 10 they'll find some other author has published source to achieve a new goal of their own saving them from having to reinvent the wheel themselves. So how does this fit in with sponsors and volumnuous resources? Well, it doesn't. But then, it was never meant to. So called end users that don't give back to the project (giving resources is a way of giving back, by the way) make of more than 99% of those that utilize the resources provided by sponsors. Sponsoring is essentially payed advertising that wasn't done with dollars (or yen, etc) and has a generally high risk return. If referring to the sponsor a dev program, it's still a similar give-take scenario. It either falls into the above scenario (that is, a lesser funded dev needs highly supported hardware to continue his regular work, gets it and blogs about it) or it falls into the category of poorly supported hardware - or both categories. In the case of the latter category, the dev is likely just looking for the learning experience when taking the hardware and building up support for it. It's all about win-win situations. I don't know what the original post was about. I only read this one because I concur with Donnie here caught my eye. But whatever was being asked for in the original post (I'm assuming that this sub-thread started with somebody asking for something?), would the dev get anything back for satisfying the request other than a less stressful time perusing their inbox? To make another argument; if I go buy a RHEL3 box set and then complain because the liveCD doesn't have some key programs (lets say cryptsetup-luks statically compiled so I can boot off of a USB key and encrypt my / partition), is the onus on them to release a new CD just for me? Hell I'm a paying customer! But they don't care. Well, that's simply bad customer service. Don't constrict your support organ because someone else's support organ operates poorly. That doesn't help anyone, not users, not devs. The initial premise for Alec's argument above is just wrong as when you go out and buy a RHEL3 box set you're not actually buying the software contained within. What you're buying is a set of installation CDs and an X month/year support contract. When you purchase Gentoo CDs, you're buying a set of installation CDs only. When you're downloading Gentoo, you're not purchasing anything. I'll try to answer your response to his invalid point, though. Whichever product you buy, the licenses for the software contained therein almost never place any requirements on the licenser, rather only on the licensee. This is true even when it comes to Microsoft, Apple, etc. If you actually go and read most of the commercial licenses, it boils down to This software is provided AS IS - except that you can't make copies, resell, use on more than one computer or by more than one person, etc. In any event, when was the decision made to kill the Universal LiveCD for x86 and replace it with the installer? I'd like to read the discussion. I have a feeling the discussion took place about 18 months ago on -core, but I'm not sure as to the answer to this. -- Jason Stubbs -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Tuesday 10 October 2006 03:45, Kari Hazzard wrote: stuff/ After writing the last response, another thought came to mind that I figured I should post - and should probably be set out in a user's guide to posting on dev mailing lists. I had the thought that users likely feel that it's okay to repeatedly post arguments for their point of view because they often see developers doing it. There is a very obvious parallel between users and developers in these threads in that both are lazy and thus want things done their own way in order to make their lives easier. The important difference is that (usually :/) at least some of the developers of each point of view are willing to implement the whole lot themselves. What they are arguing about is how much effort they see will be needed in the long term. Even in the case where a developer with a conflicting point of view is not willing to do the work now, the developer will argue for the point of view as they can see themselves having to redo it later on anyway. In the open source world, the driving theme is that there is often something good enough to not require reinventing the wheel but, in the end, if you want a job done right, you've got to do it yourself. -- Jason Stubbs -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 19:50 -0400, Caleb Cushing wrote: from the ones that are on the mirrors. so what is the hangup? I doubt it's storage space and bandwidth. Uhh... it *is* storage space. In fact, the space usage on our donated mirrors is one of the primary motivators to have us decrease our space requirements, especially as things seem to be increasing in size all on their own every release. Not only that, but there's also the time required to build things and test them. The Universal CD has always been the one thing that was the hardest to get tested. With the amount and quality of testing that we're receiving, we simply have to cut certain things. No amount of complaining will change this. The only thing that will change it is for us to get more *quality* testers. We had 35+ Release Testers for 2006.1, of which, about 7 were providing quality feedback. I don't know if the rest even tested anything. What it all boils down to is would you rather have a wide range of shoddy release materials that may or may not work between different releases, but supports all of the insane combinations of things you would want to do, or would you rather have a few high quality release materials that are well-tested? Release Engineering has decided that higher quality media is better than lots of diverse low-quality media, and nobody is going to convince us otherwise. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 23:30 -0400, Kari Hazzard wrote: The point is that if you build Gentoo to be developer-friendly rather than user-friendly, Gentoo will be replaced by something else. User-centric design is why Gentoo is/was different from everything else. Take away choices that people want and you take the Gentoo philosophy out of Gentoo itself. However, all developers are users first. If you have an itch to scratch that the current development team isn't meeting, then get involved. There are lots of ways to do that. Regards, Paul -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 23:30 -0400, Kari Hazzard wrote: The point is that if you build Gentoo to be developer-friendly rather than user-friendly, Gentoo will be replaced by something else. ...and? You seem to think that Gentoo being developer-friendly would be a change in the current way we do things. User-centric design is why Gentoo is/was different from everything else. Take away choices that people want and you take the Gentoo philosophy out of Gentoo itself. I can tell you that in the three years that I've been a developer, not once have I done user-centric design. I have always done what I think is the best way to do something. I am not alone, I know. It's pretty simple. We design a system that *we* want to use. If others benefit from it, then great. Apparently, this works pretty well since we have thousands upon thousands of users. On Monday 09 October 2006 5:45 pm, Donnie Berkholz wrote: That's only true if you assume Gentoo developers are in this for the users and not for themselves and their own personal satisfaction. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Tue, Oct 10, 2006 at 10:40:01AM -0400, Kari Hazzard wrote: Not going to happen. I'm many things, but a software developer is not one of them. I generally prefer to work on things like design and user psychology than actually being involved in the coding of it. You don't want me producing code for the project, trust me on that one. Perhaps get involved in userrel then? Plenty of ways to get involved without necessarily producing code directly -- Jon Portnoy avenj/irc.freenode.net -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Dominique Michel wrote: When an user or a potential user read it and want to do a networkless install, it will just use the Live CD install, and just get in trouble. It is even worse when many Linux magazines will have this CD. And you cannot argue at it is just to use catalyst or to burn a CD from a stage 3, when the doc say a bootable CD that contains everything you need to get Gentoo Linux up and running. That statement is still true. I have done 3 networkless installations for this release, without a problem. I used the installer. Using it you get your box up and running fast and convenient, so what exactly is the problem? It's not like you can't get Gentoo running without a network connection anymore. -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 developer -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Hello, I am very glad to here that a complet networkless install via a stage3 on the dvd without the installer would be possible again! But why you write always something about the distfiles? Are there users who want this? I really don't know. I personally, think in the same way like you! It is unecessary, because we got every week new ebuilds und useflags, if someone would a total customized system he need to load alle sources (stage1 or save it on the hdd before installation). But to include the sources need simply too much space. I also think it it enough to deliver only one stage3 (i686 on the x86-disk, x86-64 on amd64-disk...). Greetz On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 08:47 -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 10:38 +0200, Simon Stelling wrote: Dominique Michel wrote: When an user or a potential user read it and want to do a networkless install, it will just use the Live CD install, and just get in trouble. It is even worse when many Linux magazines will have this CD. And you cannot argue at it is just to use catalyst or to burn a CD from a stage 3, when the doc say a bootable CD that contains everything you need to get Gentoo Linux up and running. That statement is still true. I have done 3 networkless installations for this release, without a problem. I used the installer. Using it you get your box up and running fast and convenient, so what exactly is the problem? It's not like you can't get Gentoo running without a network connection anymore. The problem is that it is a change, and our users resist changes. While I appreciate the input from our users, I have no intentions on going backwards to what we had before. I was planning on adding more content to the LiveDVD images next time around, such as more packages, and likely the stage3 tarball. Whether I include any distfiles or not is still up in the air, mostly due to the massive number of bugs that were caused every single release due to people using the provided distfiles/packages incorrectly. We simply don't have enough manpower to test every single possible combination of USE and packages during the release cycle and our calls for testing usually go mostly unanswered. We saw a definite increase in the number of developers helping with testing this past release, but we still need more. At any rate, the next release will allow a user to *very* easily to networkless installs *without* requiring them use the installer itself. I will have this documented by that time, so there's no need to fret over it. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On 2006.10.09 19:42, Peter Weber wrote: [snip] But to include the sources need simply too much space. I also think it it enough to deliver only one stage3 (i686 on the x86-disk, x86-64 on amd64-disk...). Greetz [snip] Peter, Such a disk will not support P1s and AMD k6 CPUs (or older). Is anyone still using Gentoo on anything older ? Dropping support for x86 i686 is a debate we need to have some time I suppose, its a question of when. There is clearly only a few users, besides myself using systems that old, since there were very few forums posts about the original 2006.1 x86 media not workign on P1 and AMD k6 based systems. Regards, Roy Bamford (neddyseagoon) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Thursday 05 October 2006 10:48 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote: What about *our* choice to not waste time building things we don't want? So what about those of us who DO want that? Forcing us into an installer is more constricting and gives us less freedom--That's not the Gentoo way. If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy. - Daniel Robbins See, what *you* seem to be missing is that we're trying to provide a better environment for our users. The LiveCD is *not* just an installation medium anymore. It is a full-fledged Gentoo environment. It can be used for showcasing Gentoo, as well as system recovery *and* installation. There's a thing called self-reference criteria. It's anathema in marketing. If you think you know what is best for your users, you will all of your users and thus most of your employees. Your users know what is best for them, *not* you, as you are not a user (whether you have it installed on your desktop notwithstanding you are *not* a user). If your users still want a Universal LiveCD, then the onus is on Gentoo to provide one. -- Kari Hazzard -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Kari Hazzard wrote: There's a thing called self-reference criteria. It's anathema in marketing. If you think you know what is best for your users, you will all of your users and thus most of your employees. Your users know what is best for them, *not* you, as you are not a user (whether you have it installed on your desktop notwithstanding you are *not* a user). If your users still want a Universal LiveCD, then the onus is on Gentoo to provide one. That's only true if you assume Gentoo developers are in this for the users and not for themselves and their own personal satisfaction. Thanks, Donnie signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 20:42 +0200, Peter Weber wrote: Hello, I am very glad to here that a complet networkless install via a stage3 on the dvd without the installer would be possible again! I never said that. At any rate, the next release will allow a user to *very* easily to networkless installs *without* requiring them use the installer itself. I will have this documented by that time, so there's no need to fret over it. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 07:40 -0400, Kari Hazzard wrote: On Thursday 05 October 2006 10:48 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote: What about *our* choice to not waste time building things we don't want? So what about those of us who DO want that? Forcing us into an installer is more constricting and gives us less freedom--That's not the Gentoo way. Start building... If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy. - Daniel Robbins That's nice. Nobody is forcing you to use the Installer. Nobody is forcing you to even use Gentoo release media to do your installations. Your point here is a complete non-point. You're completely welcome to take the minimal CD, a stage3 tarball, and wget and build your own Universal CD. You're also more than welcome to fire up catalyst and build a Universal CD yourself. What you are *not* welcome to do is try to tell me how I'm going to spend the time that I volunteer to Gentoo. Now, if you would like to hire me to build a Universal CD, then contact me and we can discuss my compensation. Otherwise, I have more important things (to me) to spend my time doing. See, what *you* seem to be missing is that we're trying to provide a better environment for our users. The LiveCD is *not* just an installation medium anymore. It is a full-fledged Gentoo environment. It can be used for showcasing Gentoo, as well as system recovery *and* installation. There's a thing called self-reference criteria. It's anathema in marketing. If you think you know what is best for your users, you will all of your users and thus most of your employees. Your users know what is best for them, *not* you, as you are not a user (whether you have it installed on your desktop notwithstanding you are *not* a user). If your users still want a Universal LiveCD, then the onus is on Gentoo to provide one. I'm sorry, but I'm calling bullshit on this one. Release Engineering has a constant problem of not having enough help. Now some people want to try to tell us that we need to do more work just because they don't like a little change. Well guess what, never going to happen. It's pretty simple. So long as we have limited resources, we're going to spend our limited time on what *we* want to spend time doing. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 07:40:53 -0400 Kari Hazzard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the | tool is working against, rather than for, the user. That doesn't mean that the user is using the right tool. If you're trying to nail something to a wall, complaining because your bicycle can't do it doesn't mean the bicycle is somehow defective. -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org Web : http://ciaranm.org/ as-needed is broken : http://ciaranm.org/show_post.pl?post_id=13 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
You've wrote sth. about more content and a stage3 on the LiveDVD, or not?! On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 17:50 -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 20:42 +0200, Peter Weber wrote: Hello, I am very glad to here that a complet networkless install via a stage3 on the dvd without the installer would be possible again! I never said that. At any rate, the next release will allow a user to *very* easily to networkless installs *without* requiring them use the installer itself. I will have this documented by that time, so there's no need to fret over it. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
It was only a suggestion, not a decision. Of course, there are only a little number of this early systems. i686 would be really nice, i386 would be nice, too ;-) On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 20:45 +0100, Roy Bamford wrote: On 2006.10.09 19:42, Peter Weber wrote: [snip] But to include the sources need simply too much space. I also think it it enough to deliver only one stage3 (i686 on the x86-disk, x86-64 on amd64-disk...). Greetz [snip] Peter, Such a disk will not support P1s and AMD k6 CPUs (or older). Is anyone still using Gentoo on anything older ? Dropping support for x86 i686 is a debate we need to have some time I suppose, its a question of when. There is clearly only a few users, besides myself using systems that old, since there were very few forums posts about the original 2006.1 x86 media not workign on P1 and AMD k6 based systems. Regards, Roy Bamford (neddyseagoon) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Kari Hazzard wrote: On Thursday 05 October 2006 10:48 am, Chris Gianelloni wrote: What about *our* choice to not waste time building things we don't want? So what about those of us who DO want that? Forcing us into an installer is more constricting and gives us less freedom--That's not the Gentoo way. If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy. - Daniel Robbins While I like that quote; I think we are a long way from the times when it applied to what Gentoo was. Gentoo is at it's core a metadistribution; it is *those* tools to which I believe Daniel is speaking of in that statement. Obviously I can't make a liveCD that will satisfy everyone; there is no point in trying to do so. However I can give you a tree and catalyst and all the parts you need to build your own. That is what we call enabling and is really what I think his whole point was. See, what *you* seem to be missing is that we're trying to provide a better environment for our users. The LiveCD is *not* just an installation medium anymore. It is a full-fledged Gentoo environment. It can be used for showcasing Gentoo, as well as system recovery *and* installation. There's a thing called self-reference criteria. It's anathema in marketing. If you think you know what is best for your users, you will all of your users and thus most of your employees. Your users know what is best for them, *not* you, as you are not a user (whether you have it installed on your desktop notwithstanding you are *not* a user). If your users still want a Universal LiveCD, then the onus is on Gentoo to provide one. I concur with Donnie here; Gentoo exists not because of Users, but because of (a subset of active) Developers. It isn't a statement that is meant to trash users (because you are quite helpful in many instances). But the naive thought that Gentoo revolves around users iswell, naive. Gentoo was here before there were thousands of users, in the unlikely event that you all switch distros, Gentoo will probably still be here. We try to incorporate feedback from users because we are trying to make our work coincide with that feedback. Sometimes this is possible; many times it is not possible. Generally more Users = larger pool of Devs, and more Devs = more cool stuff going on here. To make another argument; if I go buy a RHEL3 box set and then complain because the liveCD doesn't have some key programs (lets say cryptsetup-luks statically compiled so I can boot off of a USB key and encrypt my / partition), is the onus on them to release a new CD just for me? Hell I'm a paying customer! But they don't care. And you aren't even required to pay for Gentoo at all! So why do you expect more? -Alec -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
I would like to state my opinion on this... debate. the installer for me... is inadequate it does not allow for nearly enough customization. I generally keep my boot partitions at 32 MB why? because I don't need anymore space than that( I have never even used half that much). I optomize my ext3 partions using tune2fs as well. I also have a seperate partition for portage and distfiles. also not supported. fortunately my network works. however I would prefer myself not to have to dowload tarballs which seem to only be updated on the next release anyway. I am hoping that one day that the GLI will support full customization, but I won't complain as long as I can get stage3 tarballs. as far as older than i686 I do have 1 or 2 i586s that I have gentoo on. I would like to see a generic tarball kept around for anything older than i686. because gentoo is one of the few distributions I've been able to get working on older systems. It would be really sad to see such support go. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:11:47 -0400 Caleb Cushing [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I would like to state my opinion on this... debate. the installer for | me... is inadequate it does not allow for nearly enough customization. Then don't use the installer. -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org Web : http://ciaranm.org/ as-needed is broken : http://ciaranm.org/show_post.pl?post_id=13 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
umm... I don't that was the point (that it can't work for everyone). However it would be nice if I didn't have to download a tarball. I see the point in why it's hard with distfiles but how hard would it be to add tarballs and limited distfiles. to a minimal cd) and make it universal and put it up for download? maybe and make a note in the handbook distfiles are not supported or some such. I really don't understand why this is so difficult? the tarballs wouldn't be changing from the ones that are on the mirrors. so what is the hangup? I doubt it's storage space and bandwidth. (btw I've built livecds using catalyst) On 10/9/06, Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 19:11:47 -0400 Caleb Cushing [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I would like to state my opinion on this... debate. the installer for | me... is inadequate it does not allow for nearly enough customization. Then don't use the installer. -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org Web : http://ciaranm.org/ as-needed is broken : http://ciaranm.org/show_post.pl?post_id=13 -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Steev Klimaszewski wrote: No... but didn't one download and burn that CD that is being used for the _networkless_ install? One could also download the stage needed, slap it on a usb key, and viola! Of course, the other option, is to use that crazy installer option Networkless - I could be wrong, but I do believe that is the option I would choose. (Actually I did this just the other day because of the issues I am having at home with my networking. And it worked splendidly on a P2 366 - so kudos to the releng team) The thing is, they guy does not want to use the installer. I don't remember there being a way to just extract the stages/packages manually either. At this point though I think using the installer is reasonable enough. Paul -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 09:39 +0200, Paul de Vrieze wrote: Steev Klimaszewski wrote: No... but didn't one download and burn that CD that is being used for the _networkless_ install? One could also download the stage needed, slap it on a usb key, and viola! Of course, the other option, is to use that crazy installer option Networkless - I could be wrong, but I do believe that is the option I would choose. (Actually I did this just the other day because of the issues I am having at home with my networking. And it worked splendidly on a P2 366 - so kudos to the releng team) The thing is, they guy does not want to use the installer. I don't remember there being a way to just extract the stages/packages manually either. OK. I *said* that I was writing a document on this, but people seem to just want to keep on postulating and talking about complete inaccuracies. Yes, you can install using portions of the installer from the command line (not ncurses). Unfortunately, one component necessary for a complete install from the command line (installing a kernel) was not added until after 2006.1 shipped, so you cannot do a completely networkless install with only the LiveCD/LiveDVD. At this point though I think using the installer is reasonable enough. I would agree there. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Thu, Oct 05, 2006 at 03:32:41PM -0500, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: [:snip:] Stop being stupid please, you're only making fun of yourself. I guess I don't have to explain you how useful a URL is to a _networkless_ installation, do I? No... but didn't one download and burn that CD that is being used for the _networkless_ install? One could also download the stage needed, actually, at least here in Italy many people buy Linux magazines only to have the latest distros, since the percentage of population not reached by *DSL lines is still quite high -- (sign :name Stelian Ionescu :aka fe[nl]ix :quote Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.) pgpkZIRwO2Zbg.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Hello, since Gentoo started its Gentoopix LiveCD I really miss a CD for networkless-installation. I don't know why the stage3 is missing, because just some people need a full Gnome-Desktop for the installation :-( A year ago I could choose between a Minimal-CD for network-installation, or a Universal-CD for offline-installation (independence) network-installation. Nowadays I need to load a Gentoopix with a lot of really unnecessary Gnome-Stuff, and even don't get a real Stage3, just a bunch of Voodoo-Scripts. First Question: Where is here the Choice_Of_Gentoo and why are we breaking with our tradition of shell-installing? I would be better to offer a real Universal-CD or to creat a bootloader-script, which gives the users the possibility to start X11/GTK-Installer if they want this, not without a question. Second Question: Will there be a new Universal-CD (or a DVD) with a real Stage3 for networkless-installion? I think, a gentoo-user should be able to choose between the shell, ncurses- and a gtk-installer. And any of this groups should have the same possibilites to install. Greetz -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Peter Weber wrote: Hello, since Gentoo started its Gentoopix LiveCD I really miss a CD for networkless-installation. I don't know why the stage3 is missing, because just some people need a full Gnome-Desktop for the installation :-( Oh noes, we even have a whole special handbook version [1] for networkless installs, but you didn't bother to check even, right? [1] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/2006.1/index.xml Sigh. :( -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
You don't unterstand me, sorry. There is no Universal-CD, a User must to download the LiveCD which forces he/she to use the Ncurses/X11-Installer, because there is no Stage3-Tarball. The missing Stage3 is the real problem. On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 16:27 +0200, Jakub Moc wrote: Peter Weber wrote: Hello, since Gentoo started its Gentoopix LiveCD I really miss a CD for networkless-installation. I don't know why the stage3 is missing, because just some people need a full Gnome-Desktop for the installation :-( Oh noes, we even have a whole special handbook version [1] for networkless installs, but you didn't bother to check even, right? [1] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/2006.1/index.xml Sigh. :( -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 15:52 +0200, Peter Weber wrote: First Question: Where is here the Choice_Of_Gentoo and why are we breaking with our tradition of shell-installing? I love this argument. What about *our* choice to not waste time building things we don't want? I would be better to offer a real Universal-CD or to creat a bootloader-script, which gives the users the possibility to start X11/GTK-Installer if they want this, not without a question. Umm... nox works just fine. See, what *you* seem to be missing is that we're trying to provide a better environment for our users. The LiveCD is *not* just an installation medium anymore. It is a full-fledged Gentoo environment. It can be used for showcasing Gentoo, as well as system recovery *and* installation. Second Question: Will there be a new Universal-CD (or a DVD) with a real Stage3 for networkless-installion? No. I do plan on putting the stage3 on the next LiveDVD, but without the necessary distfiles, it won't do much good for doing a completely networkless installation. The simple truth is that there were way too many bug reports each release about missing distfiles and other such problems that made it not worth the time required to maintain for us. I think, a gentoo-user should be able to choose between the shell, ncurses- and a gtk-installer. And any of this groups should have the same possibilites to install. I've actually been writing a document on how to use the installer scripts from the command line (without running the installer itself) to perform an install. At any rate, there's *nothing* stopping someone *else* from building their own Universal CD. If you need it, build it. People seem to think that choice means forcing developers to do what *I* want them to do with *their* volunteered time. It doesn't. We release our code under the GPL. We release our release-building tool. We release our spec files for that tool. Anyone is capable of running a few scripts to do exactly what we've done to build their own Gentoo release. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Peter Weber wrote: You don't unterstand me, sorry. There is no Universal-CD, a User must to download the LiveCD which forces he/she to use the Ncurses/X11-Installer, because there is no Stage3-Tarball. OH RLY? Maybe just read the options you can pass to bootloader to get CLI? The missing Stage3 is the real problem. Apparently... http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/x86/2006.1/stages/stage3-i686-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/amd64/2006.1/stages/stage3-amd64-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc32/stages/stage3-ppc-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-32ul-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-64ul-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc32/stages/stage3-sparc-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc64/stages/stage3-sparc64-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ia64/2006.1/stages/stage3-ia64-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/alpha/2006.1/stages/stage3-alpha-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa2.0/stage3-hppa2.0-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa1.1/stage3-hppa1.1-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips3/stage3-mips3-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips4/stage3-mips4-2006.1.tar.bz2 -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 10:48 -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote: Second Question: Will there be a new Universal-CD (or a DVD) with a real Stage3 for networkless-installion? No. I do plan on putting the stage3 on the next LiveDVD, but without the necessary distfiles, it won't do much good for doing a completely networkless installation. I've actually been writing a document on how to use the installer scripts from the command line (without running the installer itself) to perform an install. More is not necessary. Thanks. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
On 10/5/06, Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Weber wrote: You don't unterstand me, sorry. There is no Universal-CD, a User must to download the LiveCD which forces he/she to use the Ncurses/X11-Installer, because there is no Stage3-Tarball. OH RLY? Maybe just read the options you can pass to bootloader to get CLI? The missing Stage3 is the real problem. Apparently... http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/x86/2006.1/stages/stage3-i686-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/amd64/2006.1/stages/stage3-amd64-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc32/stages/stage3-ppc-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-32ul-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-64ul-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc32/stages/stage3-sparc-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc64/stages/stage3-sparc64-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ia64/2006.1/stages/stage3-ia64-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/alpha/2006.1/stages/stage3-alpha-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa2.0/stage3-hppa2.0-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa1.1/stage3-hppa1.1-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips3/stage3-mips3-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips4/stage3-mips4-2006.1.tar.bz2 None of which are that helpful for a networkless install :/ -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Dan Meltzer wrote: None of which are that helpful for a networkless install :/ Funny, I can still do networkless install with those just fine by fetching the distfiles tarballs before install - hint: emerge -[fF] Plus nothing stops you from creating your own customized media using our release tools, as already said. You can still install Gentoo from stage1 if you really wish, it's just not something that we want to support any more. You can do lots of other things, like stage4 stuff. I don't see how are we discriminating anyone; we just choose what we can support and what we don't wish/can't support any more with the limited manpower available. -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users
Simon Stelling wrote: Jakub Moc wrote: The missing Stage3 is the real problem. Apparently... http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/x86/2006.1/stages/stage3-i686-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/amd64/2006.1/stages/stage3-amd64-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc32/stages/stage3-ppc-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-32ul-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ppc/2006.1/ppc64/stages/stage3-ppc64-64ul-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc32/stages/stage3-sparc-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/sparc/2006.1/sparc64/stages/stage3-sparc64-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/ia64/2006.1/stages/stage3-ia64-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/alpha/2006.1/stages/stage3-alpha-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa2.0/stage3-hppa2.0-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/hppa/2006.1/stages/hppa1.1/stage3-hppa1.1-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips3/stage3-mips3-2006.1.tar.bz2 http://gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/mips/2006.1/stages/mips4/stage3-mips4-2006.1.tar.bz2 Stop being stupid please, you're only making fun of yourself. I guess I don't have to explain you how useful a URL is to a _networkless_ installation, do I? No... but didn't one download and burn that CD that is being used for the _networkless_ install? One could also download the stage needed, slap it on a usb key, and viola! Of course, the other option, is to use that crazy installer option Networkless - I could be wrong, but I do believe that is the option I would choose. (Actually I did this just the other day because of the issues I am having at home with my networking. And it worked splendidly on a P2 366 - so kudos to the releng team) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
