Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/2010 03:10 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: I can assure you that if someone goes to #gentoo-forums and tries to tell the forums team what tone should be used in that channel, we'll kindly ask the person to stop or to leave. This is one of the public and exposed channels and thus we have a tone with that in mind, but we're not going to set our tone according to the demands of a developer that is not even part of the team. I was not suggesting that tone in Gentoo was up to the discretion of any individual developer - neither myself, nor you, nor the head of infra/forums/etc. The tone in Gentoo is up to Gentoo. Fortunately we have a forum for deciding what Gentoo wants - we elect them annually. What would grant any non-member of a team the right to demand how the members of the team should act amongst themselves in their private room? Simple - the room belongs to Gentoo as a whole. You're certainly free not to listen to me, but I and others are free to point out that this isn't good for Gentoo. I certainly wouldn't take it upon myself to enforce the CofC, but I certainly would urge those responsible for governing the distro to do so. About the legal right, that isn't true. There are a few misconceptions in your statement. Even though the Foundation is the body which holds the Gentoo brand, trademarks and logo, it's not the Foundation that sets the rules for joining and be part of the Gentoo Developers Community. Furthermore, being a Gentoo developer doesn't mean you can join any team you want or that you have a right to go to any #gentoo-* channel. In case you have any doubt, I can give you a list of quite a few channels most developers don't have access to. Your statement is partially correct - obviously if I am a stockholder in Google I can't choose to just waltz onto the corporate campus and go around as I please, merely by virtue of being a shareholder. However, a shareholder of Google certainly is able to speak out about actions within the company that they feel damage it, and their elected representatives (the board) can give power to anybody (including themselves) to waltz around and put things in order. This starts with their authority to hire and fire the CEO at whim. Ultimately, if anything contains the name Gentoo and represents itself as being associated with a linux distribution, then it is using a trademark owned by the Gentoo Foundation. In the end, any use of Gentoo trademarks is completely at the discretion of the Foundation. If you insist, to address the question that access lists for #gentoo-* channels can be set by Freenode (our main IRC network), you should know that the only people Freenode will listen to regarding that are the members of the Freenode Gentoo Group Contacts. The people in that group were not chosen by the Foundation nor do they respond to it. Well, this is getting a bit silly, but they'd certainly answer to a cease and desist, or those hosting their servers certainly would. It would obviously never come to that. Go ahead and try to register #microsoft-press-releases and see if being named the official contact gets you anywhere. Also, please never forget that being part of Gentoo is a privilege and not a right. On that we certainly agree. It really wasn't my intention to suggest that somehow anybody was personally beholden to me. I really am just stating my opinion, as are you. As an example, even though I use my gentoo cloak online, you don't have any right to impose a behaviour into me in my private channel. Sure, I cannot, personally. However, Gentoo certainly can. At the very least I'd expect devs to generally conduct themselves in a manner where such things aren't necessary to even bring up. We have a loosely-knit community that is able to provide a reasonable product Gentoo Linux. Let's try to avoid killing it by wanting to impose a certain mentality or behaviour into others and let's try to respect each other and learn to live in a community. Well, the whole principle of the CofC is that it imposes behaviors on those who wish to use Gentoo media, or be Gentoo staff. That said, I really don't suggest that anybody need be heavy-handed. Nor do I suggest that my personal opinion should be the one that rules Gentoo (I would say the same regarding your opinion as well). In the end that's all we're doing - you say that infra decides what happens on #gentoo-infra, and I say that they don't (well, not ultimately - certainly I'd suggest that the trustees/council should of course delegate channel moderation to the team that uses the channel, and only intervene if necessary). What I would say is that I encourage those who are in the trustees and council to recognize the importance of this issue, and I ask that they consider that tone really does matter. We elect these bodies to speak for Gentoo, and I think that this is an issue where Gentoo could stand to be heard.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
If this thread started out at some point as being constructive, it's certainly stopped being so now. Please kill this, take some cool-off time, and come back if there is something *constructive* to be said. -- Arun Raghavan http://arunraghavan.net/ (Ford_Prefect | Gentoo) (arunsr | GNOME)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Now that's tone in Gentoo. Brilliant. And you're ugly! Hey, you're doing it yourself. You're using sarcasm (I assume you do, otherwise the positive Brilliant. doesn't fit in the context of Oh dear, these rude people said that!) I think we need to remember to tolerate each other more - there's no need to like people, we're working together on a technical/engineering problem, not a theater production. As long as it doesn't get actively hostile we can continue with a pretty large amount of friction. Read the archives of this mailing list if you want to see how much :) What I mean to say is: We're a pretty mixed and only loosely connected group of people. You can't expect everyone to get along with everyone else. So don't try to force a consensus and get everyone to play by teletubby sunshine happy happy rules. Just let us get things done in an efficient way - maybe a bit more politeness helps that, but sugarcoating everything won't. And never forget, I don't care if you're upset that I filed 35 bugs for you. Your feelings are irrelevant to the fact that there are bugs. The only thing you should do is fix things, not yell at me :) To infinity, and beyond! Patrick
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 6/19/10 8:43 AM, Patrick Lauer wrote: As long as it doesn't get actively hostile we can continue with a pretty large amount of friction. Read the archives of this mailing list if you want to see how much :) I think that is the point. Is just not being actively hostile a success? I'd say that a really friendly community is much more, and reducing friction seems to be a good goal to create such a community. Moreover, we don't just want to get along with ourselves. We want to encourage other people to join our community. We want to prevent people more sensitive to the tone (I think it's actually a good thing) from leaving. Because we lose their technical contributions as well (if that's the only thing you care about). The only thing you should do is fix things, not yell at me :) Please remember about the human side of the equation. A large portion of Gentoo is just keeping it in technically good shape. In my opinion it's the task we're doing pretty well, probably because everybody agrees this is important. What we should improve, are the human communication skills (including mine, eh). Just let us get things done in an efficient way - maybe a bit more politeness helps that, but sugarcoating everything won't. I agree. We're still a technical-focused community, but we should not forget about politeness. Paweł signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/2010 09:10 AM, Paweł Hajdan, Jr. wrote: I think that is the point. Is just not being actively hostile a success? Given our past, yes. Given the size of our project, yes. The sheer size of the project guarantees that not everybody will like everyone. They merely get along and no thread will change that fact. Maybe a developer get-together like they happen here in the German conspiracy and elsewhere will, but that's not something you can force-feed others. Moreover, we don't just want to get along with ourselves. We want to encourage other people to join our community. I want and will train people who want to scratch their personal (technical) itches in gentoo to become a developer. Joining the community, otoh, takes as much as a /join #gentoo or logging into the forums. Yes, you can do that just for fun and that's totally fine. If something prevents users from joining the community in this way, UserRel should have a look at it. Nothing new here. But all examples of tone I've seen in this lengthy thread revolve around developer (particularly infra/devrel) communications. As has been said before, the two should not be confused, as they are different problems and have different solutions. As for the latter problem, Jorge and Patrick have said all there is to say about the issue. What we should improve, are the human communication skills (including mine, eh). This is nothing we can improve. I can't magically improve anyone's communication skill (and hell, I wish someone could fix mine!). Everyone decides if that's something he or she wants or needs to work on and how. Personally, I've observed that leading by example works best here. So please join me in killing some bugs (gently) today, kthx? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 19 June 2010 09:10, Paweł Hajdan, Jr. phajdan...@gentoo.org wrote: On 6/19/10 8:43 AM, Patrick Lauer wrote: As long as it doesn't get actively hostile we can continue with a pretty large amount of friction. Read the archives of this mailing list if you want to see how much :) I think that is the point. Is just not being actively hostile a success? I'd say that a really friendly community is much more, and reducing friction seems to be a good goal to create such a community. Moreover, we don't just want to get along with ourselves. We want to encourage other people to join our community. We want to prevent people more sensitive to the tone (I think it's actually a good thing) from leaving. Because we lose their technical contributions as well (if that's the only thing you care about). This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) many people are not getting more involved and volunteering to become developers is the level of in-fighting and the ineffective way that bullies and other poisonous people are being dealt with. Does Gentoo really prefer to keep more sensitive people out instead of effectively getting rid of repeat offenders? Think about it. What kind of people would you rather have in Gentoo? Cheers, Ben
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Jorge, On 06/19/10 05:20, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: you're confusing talk and jokes between developers on a particular private room with tone between members of the global community in public mediums. It wasn't #gentoo-roughshit, it was in #gentoo-infra - the place devs go on infra matters. To the outside of Gentoo it may be a private channel, to Gentoo itself it is not (or should not be) a private channel. I can expect proper tone from an infra related channel just like from #gentoo-doc. You're also missing an important point that some channels have their own environment and so one should start by understanding it. Furthermore, pushing for change and or imposing one's view on an established channel is not a nice way to deal with the residents of that channel. Another thing you've just done and should be aware of, is that you chose to air into the public private conservations. When any Gentoo developer decides to reveal a private discussion in the core ml or some other private medium into the general public without the other parties knowledge and or consent, that developer is abusing the other members' trust. If #gentoo-infra bangs their moms the rest of the community deserves to know. I didn't mention names or anything implying specific participants to the outside. You have shown to be very attached to this topic, so much so that you've just blown this completely out of proportion. There was no foul play intended in that conservation I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. This is where I left the channel. How will I be able to tell women on LinuxTag 2010 that we do want women in Gentoo with such tone in #gentoo-infra? Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. Please watch your language, this is a public mailing-list. Denis.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:28 PM, Denis Dupeyron calc...@gentoo.org wrote: On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. Please watch your language, this is a public mailing-list. I think that now we've come full-circle, and rendered half the original goals of this thread m00t. And while I still have everyone's attention, I'd like to point out that the tone of people on a small channel restricted to devs-only; a place 90% of devs will never end up in, is not where I would start my crusade. If the participants of this discussion really want to make Gentoo a gentler and nicer place to be, I would suggest that they start with places that will actually make a difference. For example, gentoo-dev ML, gentoo-project (where this discussion should have taken place), gentoo-user, #gentoo-dev, #gentoo-soc (where a lot of our recruits come from), #gentoo, the forums, the planet, etc. No, really, flaming #gentoo-infra on the gentoo-dev mailing list is silly, useless *and* ironic (in this case). And to everyone who is getting very angry right now, please refrain[1]. 1. They might even want to read this blog post someone made in a tiny corner of the internet: http://is.gd/cVrxM -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Nirbheek, On 06/19/10 17:34, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: No, really, flaming #gentoo-infra on the gentoo-dev mailing list is silly, useless *and* ironic (in this case). It's not about the infra team, it's about communication in the #gentoo-infra channel. All of silly, useless *and* ironic could use an explaination, at least to me. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Jeremy, On 06/19/10 06:45, Jeremy Olexa wrote: On 06/18/2010 09:25 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: In #gentoo-infra snip #gentoo-infra is a private channel and you don't have to be in there. No public community members/users are in there. The tone can be anything that is acceptable to the normal inhabitants of said channel. #gentoo-infra is a channel on infra matters. The fact that it's developers only doesn't make it a private channel in a sense of tone doesn't matter. I *strongly* feel that instead of threads like this, people can, and should be, leading by example and recruiting people that show similar feelings. Leading by example doesn't work with tone. Being the politest one in group of people insulting each other will not make them change tone. As Patrick said[2], back to bug fixing and using time wisely. Fixing bugs addresses the technical layer. Again, technical is not our problem: non-technical is. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/10 08:43, Patrick Lauer wrote: Now that's tone in Gentoo. Brilliant. And you're ugly! Hey, you're doing it yourself. You're using sarcasm (I assume you do, otherwise the positive Brilliant. doesn't fit in the context of Oh dear, these rude people said that!) You got me. Replace brilliant with That's sad. So don't try to force a consensus and get everyone to play by teletubby sunshine happy happy rules. Just let us get things done in an efficient way - maybe a bit more politeness helps that, but sugarcoating everything won't. This thread has never been about making things up. And never forget, I don't care if you're upset that I filed 35 bugs for you. If you mean what you say: that's pretty insensitive. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 19-06-2010 16:15, Sebastian Pipping wrote: Jeremy, On 06/19/10 06:45, Jeremy Olexa wrote: On 06/18/2010 09:25 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: In #gentoo-infra snip #gentoo-infra is a private channel and you don't have to be in there. No public community members/users are in there. The tone can be anything that is acceptable to the normal inhabitants of said channel. #gentoo-infra is a channel on infra matters. The fact that it's developers only doesn't make it a private channel in a sense of tone doesn't matter. Sebastian, you've failed to notice an important point that others have already tried to convey to you - #gentoo-infra is the home of the Gentoo infra team. Yes, developers go there to address infra issues on Gentoo, but it is the infra team channel and not the channel of every Gentoo developer. Furthermore, the fact you consider it insulting, doesn't make it necessarily insulting. Also that tone was used between other developers who know each other very well and wasn't directed at you. You acted like you were entitled to set rules for behaviour in another team's channel. It must not surprise you if the people there weren't too pleased or impressed. As Patrick said[2], back to bug fixing and using time wisely. Fixing bugs addresses the technical layer. Again, technical is not our problem: non-technical is. That is your opinion and a perfectly reasonable one. It doesn't mean everyone shares your opinion or that everyone agrees with your proposals to address that problem. Best, Sebastian - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJMHPkoAAoJEC8ZTXQF1qEP4x8P/jks8hJoPnuI678V8asEA8Zo MGaai0HgcKaI5VMBreWKXSPW+j12ACuxlQlqDTJFsWNGWyNeE3aJLohMS0V84XxW hih/TQlC8I8r3OXo6kTE7TkjJS3zFyUxWM0TIJToAH0a9C8nCULm+iIFMs4dixue BMCjO+lJx2HL62Uf91TDuCl7PobJ1yLpFhSNtnw0WMKnxYZJN9F+ZRjnknw8GBB6 0ok/q36oCchK/E/lf5lZSSbUHrR4FiZNB/pySuLSrQmF1a3SLLwEFeC2TWywcBqr rswRrupiriVRMtWrc1DcOeOH0gH9ni4s5BvOOKSdBMLIJ3bIGrojoiSL0BD8Ml09 scb7eyGWRJfCiH9w+ppPsE/+SaBc/i4jTv1XbxNDalceAzKt8mu73I+XN/aGBbcS MKpU+JLX2WQihR8gNInZjPWDCgZfssUiubGeOIKALAQ+exQObiuFWjp3irky/Wy7 J8kxu10qJpCrinumjRzyZk5yKX3LFBdqGMi9hL0Gyb9yCzfCFwnqJ/cjv40ySamG VSFwR5y+Lkwz+xWzlMBZJuaZSnWPn26RU8svry3Dd1wVWZDYQSJMhyJAUqh95qVm p/uwCyLVahWcrfbwtNcM03NqQJPsgsLKjmuZmHRmH9yCKtNGytxnT01/+3P8fZJ7 fDPH53tF5k60tsDqFHwS =fVgn -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: On 06/19/10 17:34, Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: No, really, flaming #gentoo-infra on the gentoo-dev mailing list is silly, useless *and* ironic (in this case). It's not about the infra team, it's about communication in the #gentoo-infra channel. All of silly, useless *and* ironic could use an explaination, at least to me. * It is silly because this is an insignificant matter compared to the bigger problems. * It is useless because you're approaching this in a completely wrong way; being vehement doesn't convince anyone. * It is ironic because by flaming the people on that channel in a public manner, you are degrading the tone of this mailing list. In fact, by doing what you are doing, you are alienating people who once supported your cause, and wanted to help. You cannot cause change without widespread support. You cannot convince people of your opinions by insulting them, or repeating your arguments emphatically. I advise you to take a break to cool off and think for a while about how you are approaching this. To make someone understand your PoV, you must first understand their PoV and *empathize* with it. -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/2010 01:06 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: On 19-06-2010 16:15, Sebastian Pipping wrote: #gentoo-infra is a channel on infra matters. The fact that it's developers only doesn't make it a private channel in a sense of tone doesn't matter. you've failed to notice an important point that others have already tried to convey to you - #gentoo-infra is the home of the Gentoo infra team. Yes, developers go there to address infra issues on Gentoo, but it is the infra team channel and not the channel of every Gentoo developer. Perhaps he didn't fail to notice this point, but rather he just disagrees with it? The fact is that #gentoo-infra is part of the Gentoo linux distribution. It belongs to every Gentoo developer, or at least legally to every Gentoo foundation member. Conduct on this channel reflects on all Gentoo developers. It really does bother me that everybody is lining up to defend this kind of behavior. If the response had been - sorry, I guess the joking got out of hand I'd say, ok, well, let's try to do better but let's all move on. I don't see offensive behavior using Gentoo IDs/IRC Cloaks/media as a trivial matter. It sets the overall tone of the distro, which is what this thread is all about. I've heard several devs over the years comment that they love contributing to Gentoo, but they'd never put it on their resume. Who can blame them? I know that if I ever were hiring somebody and they pointed out that they were a Gentoo dev, I'd tend to assume that their technical knowledge was pretty good but you can be assured I'd do quite a bit of digging around to figure out if they're somebody I'd want working on my team. Unless somebody is so good that you'd be fine if they were the only person working for you, then they're not too good to pass over. Rest assured that if you hire and keep certain people, sooner or later they WILL be the only ones working for you... I don't think that most Gentoo devs behave in this way. I think a lot of people care about trying to fix this. I don't think it is asking too much for Gentoo devs to try to keep their behavior reasonably professional when using Gentoo media, or Gentoo emails/cloaks/etc. No need to start burning people at the stake for slip-ups, but let's at least try to agree that we'd like to be associated with a somewhat professional-acting distribution? Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/2010 06:54 AM, Ben de Groot wrote: This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) many people are not getting more involved and volunteering to become developers is the level of in-fighting and the ineffective way that bullies and other poisonous people are being dealt with. Does Gentoo really prefer to keep more sensitive people out instead of effectively getting rid of repeat offenders? ++ http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/30301159 http://opensourcebridge.org/sessions/216 We don't need one-strike-and-you're-out, but tone does matter. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
If #gentoo-infra bangs their moms the rest of the community deserves to know. Oh? What do you do at night with your girlfriend (or boyfriend or yourself)? The community deserves to know! You have shown to be very attached to this topic, so much so that you've just blown this completely out of proportion. There was no foul play intended in that conservation I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. This is where I left the channel. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. How will I be able to tell women on LinuxTag 2010 that we do want women in Gentoo with such tone in #gentoo-infra? You might be surprised to hear that I know more women that don't care or would laugh at such stuff (albeit possibly laughing more about the immature people stating such nonsense) than those who would be offended. Best regards, Wulf signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:54:25 +0200 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) Unfortunately, that's selecting a rather biased audience. The success of a forum depends upon the number of active posters it has. The number of active posters it has depends upon how many people need to post there to get answers to questions, and how many wrong answers have to be given before the right answer comes up. Thus, by selecting from the forums, you're picking an audience that likes talking endlessly about communities, not one that likes to answer a question once, correctly, and then change things so the question doesn't need to be answered again. Does Gentoo really prefer to keep more sensitive people out instead of effectively getting rid of repeat offenders? All bringing more sensitive people in does is cripples the distribution's ability to delivery any technical improvements, since everyone's time is wasted worrying about the whiners. And let's face it, the sort of people who moan about that kind of thing are going to find a reason to moan no matter what. Think about it. What kind of people would you rather have in Gentoo? Personally, I'd like to see Gentoo start having the kinds of people who deliver a better product, not the kinds of people who worry that using a gender-ambiguous cow as a logo might be offensive. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Ben de Groot wrote: On 19 June 2010 09:10, Paweł Hajdan, Jr.phajdan...@gentoo.org wrote: On 6/19/10 8:43 AM, Patrick Lauer wrote: As long as it doesn't get actively hostile we can continue with a pretty large amount of friction. Read the archives of this mailing list if you want to see how much :) I think that is the point. Is just not being actively hostile a success? I'd say that a really friendly community is much more, and reducing friction seems to be a good goal to create such a community. Moreover, we don't just want to get along with ourselves. We want to encourage other people to join our community. We want to prevent people more sensitive to the tone (I think it's actually a good thing) from leaving. Because we lose their technical contributions as well (if that's the only thing you care about). This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) many people are not getting more involved and volunteering to become developers is the level of in-fighting and the ineffective way that bullies and other poisonous people are being dealt with. Does Gentoo really prefer to keep more sensitive people out instead of effectively getting rid of repeat offenders? Think about it. What kind of people would you rather have in Gentoo? Cheers, Ben I would like to say this to the list and then I have no plans to say anything else. This is NOT directed at Ben either, just picked this to reply to. I would love to learn how to do some programing and help Gentoo. I been using Gentoo since the 1.4 days. I'm not a genius and I don't even claim to know a lot much less everything. Thing is, I was here several years ago when even this mailing list was basically out of control. Are things better, you dang right they are. They are hugely better. Are they where they should be, nope. A lot of progress has been made but it still is not like it should be. If I owned Gentoo and it was my pride and joy, I wouldn't tolerate some of the things that are said. Since most people here have jobs, would your boss knowingly allow some of the things said here or on private lists to continue, or would someone be looking for a job? I don't want a answer, just some to think about the question a bit. I understand that people here are volunteers too. No need to point that out. Thing is, it doesn't matter if you volunteer or not. I volunteer for a lot of things locally but I won't volunteer for Gentoo. I just happen to like the OS. I wouldn't continue to volunteer for the local things if I had to deal with some things that happen on the lists either. Again, it has improved a lot or I wouldn't be subscribed at all. My hats off to the ones that got it this far. To Sebastian, the mailing list has improved a lot and there are still occasions where things happen that shouldn't. The changes you want are going to be difficult if not impossible. Make the decision that I made, either let things get better over time then join in or if you feel like it, try to help change them slowly. If you expect this to change anytime soon, you will only disappoint yourself. I fear it will eventually lead to a lawsuit from somebody then things will change. Eventually, someone will go to far and then Gentoo will be at least partially on the hook for it and be forced to change. I'm not saying Gentoo would or should lose but the costs of the defense will force a change. Most small organizations like Gentoo can't afford but one bite out of that apple. As some have said in the past, the mailing list and such do belong to Gentoo. Therefore, Gentoo would be accountable for its part of what happens on them. The lawyers will argue that Gentoo allowed it to continue and therefore permitted it to happen. Again, may not work but Gentoo would still have to foot the bill to defend itself. My $0.02 worth for the day and that ain't much. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/10 19:50, Wulf C. Krueger wrote: If #gentoo-infra bangs their moms the rest of the community deserves to know. Oh? What do you do at night with your girlfriend (or boyfriend or yourself)? The community deserves to know! My point was about the style of communication in there, not about sex. I could have said If #gentoo-infra operates in such tone [..] alternatively. You have shown to be very attached to this topic, so much so that you've just blown this completely out of proportion. There was no foul play intended in that conservation I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. This is where I left the channel. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Or make the kitchen a place to be, right. You might be surprised to hear that I know more women that don't care or would laugh at such stuff (albeit possibly laughing more about the immature people stating such nonsense) than those who would be offended. According to my female source Lena Simon some women seem to rather laugh about such things with men around and do the opposite in female-to-female discussions. We have so few women in Gentoo that that alone makes me doubt your point. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/10 19:59, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) Unfortunately, that's selecting a rather biased audience. The success of a forum depends upon the number of active posters it has. The number of active posters it has depends upon how many people need to post there to get answers to questions, and how many wrong answers have to be given before the right answer comes up. Thus, by selecting from the forums, you're picking an audience that likes talking endlessly about communities, not one that likes to answer a question once, correctly, and then change things so the question doesn't need to be answered again. This may apply to easy and/or 99%-technical problems with a dictator around. That's not what we have here. It's two black-and-white for my taste, too. Does Gentoo really prefer to keep more sensitive people out instead of effectively getting rid of repeat offenders? All bringing more sensitive people in does is cripples the distribution's ability to delivery any technical improvements, Looking at it the other way around: with more sensitive people around, collaboration would work better potentially leading to less loss of time and energy and therefore quicker arrival of improvements. Think about it. What kind of people would you rather have in Gentoo? Personally, I'd like to see Gentoo start having the kinds of people who deliver a better product, not the kinds of people who worry that using a gender-ambiguous cow as a logo might be offensive. I don't consider that comment respectful. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 19-06-2010 17:40, Richard Freeman wrote: On 06/19/2010 01:06 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: On 19-06-2010 16:15, Sebastian Pipping wrote: #gentoo-infra is a channel on infra matters. The fact that it's developers only doesn't make it a private channel in a sense of tone doesn't matter. you've failed to notice an important point that others have already tried to convey to you - #gentoo-infra is the home of the Gentoo infra team. Yes, developers go there to address infra issues on Gentoo, but it is the infra team channel and not the channel of every Gentoo developer. Perhaps he didn't fail to notice this point, but rather he just disagrees with it? The fact is that #gentoo-infra is part of the Gentoo linux distribution. It belongs to every Gentoo developer, or at least legally to every Gentoo foundation member. Conduct on this channel reflects on all Gentoo developers. Richard, that channel is as much part of the Gentoo Linux distribution as #gentoo-kde, #gentoo-elections, #gentoo-devrel, #gentoo-forums and many others, including private channels for some teams. I can assure you that if someone goes to #gentoo-forums and tries to tell the forums team what tone should be used in that channel, we'll kindly ask the person to stop or to leave. This is one of the public and exposed channels and thus we have a tone with that in mind, but we're not going to set our tone according to the demands of a developer that is not even part of the team. I can convey similar statements about #gentoo-userrel, #gentoo-devrel, #gentoo-elections and many others. I've picked these particular channels as I'm member of these teams, have been for a while, and these are public channels that try to keep an inviting tone as they are very exposed to the community. If someone tried to go to the old userrel private channel and tell the people in the team how to behave in their backyard, they would likely get a similar response to that used in #gentoo-infra. What would grant any non-member of a team the right to demand how the members of the team should act amongst themselves in their private room? About the legal right, that isn't true. There are a few misconceptions in your statement. Even though the Foundation is the body which holds the Gentoo brand, trademarks and logo, it's not the Foundation that sets the rules for joining and be part of the Gentoo Developers Community. Furthermore, being a Gentoo developer doesn't mean you can join any team you want or that you have a right to go to any #gentoo-* channel. In case you have any doubt, I can give you a list of quite a few channels most developers don't have access to. If you insist, to address the question that access lists for #gentoo-* channels can be set by Freenode (our main IRC network), you should know that the only people Freenode will listen to regarding that are the members of the Freenode Gentoo Group Contacts. The people in that group were not chosen by the Foundation nor do they respond to it. Also, please never forget that being part of Gentoo is a privilege and not a right. It really does bother me that everybody is lining up to defend this kind of behavior. If the response had been - sorry, I guess the joking got out of hand I'd say, ok, well, let's try to do better but let's all move on. I don't see offensive behavior using Gentoo IDs/IRC Cloaks/media as a trivial matter. It sets the overall tone of the distro, which is what this thread is all about. I'm not defending your-mom jokes nor a harsh tone in Gentoo. I'm trying to explain the difference between joking amongst friends on your house and making insulting comments directed towards individual members or a global community in the public. The #gentoo channel has had a long time policy of clean language as it can be and is used by children and it's one of the channels (the one?) with greater exposure to the community. Many of the comments and jokes that are common practice and perfectly reasonable on #gentoo-dev would likely get you a warning in #gentoo. Some #gentoo-* channels impose some restrictions about valid topics for that channel. The #gentoo-ops channel topic is Discussion of #gentoo issues. The #gentoo-kde channel doesn't want PM discussions. So the appropriate tone for each channel depends of its environment. I've heard several devs over the years comment that they love contributing to Gentoo, but they'd never put it on their resume. Who can blame them? I know that if I ever were hiring somebody and they pointed out that they were a Gentoo dev, I'd tend to assume that their technical knowledge was pretty good but you can be assured I'd do quite a bit of digging around to figure out if they're somebody I'd want working on my team. Well, this is an option of every Gentoo developer. It's up to each member of the community to decide whether they want to publicize their participation in Gentoo or not. To be
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:57:03 +0200 Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: This may apply to easy and/or 99%-technical problems with a dictator around. That's not what we have here. It's two black-and-white for my taste, too. No, that's the nice thing about delivering a product based upon technical merit: most of the time, there are right answers and there are wrong answers, and careful investigation and good management can lead to it being determined which is which. All bringing more sensitive people in does is cripples the distribution's ability to delivery any technical improvements, Looking at it the other way around: with more sensitive people around, collaboration would work better potentially leading to less loss of time and energy and therefore quicker arrival of improvements. Collaboration works when good ideas get kept and bad ideas get dropped. Collaboration fails when good ideas are rejected because people don't like who came up with them or the tone in which they were presented, or when bad ideas are kept around to avoid hurting the feelings of the people who came up with those ideas. Personally, I'd like to see Gentoo start having the kinds of people who deliver a better product, not the kinds of people who worry that using a gender-ambiguous cow as a logo might be offensive. I don't consider that comment respectful. But do you consider it to be correct? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Ciaran, On 06/19/10 21:16, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: No, that's the nice thing about delivering a product based upon technical merit: most of the time, there are right answers and there are wrong answers, and careful investigation and good management can lead to it being determined which is which. I think you neglect differences in values. Say the degree of backwards-compatibility: there's no wrong nor right without values. Both sides have pros and cons. Collaboration works when good ideas get kept and bad ideas get dropped. Collaboration fails when good ideas are rejected because people don't like who came up with them If you had better tone it would be much easier to accept the good among your ideas. or the tone in which they were presented, or when bad ideas are kept around to avoid hurting the feelings of the people who came up with those ideas. Saying no politely is hard, not impossible. Personally, I'd like to see Gentoo start having the kinds of people who deliver a better product, not the kinds of people who worry that using a gender-ambiguous cow as a logo might be offensive. I don't consider that comment respectful. But do you consider it to be correct? No, I don't. I have said technical is not our main problem many times. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 19 June 2010 19:50, Wulf C. Krueger w...@mailstation.de wrote: If #gentoo-infra bangs their moms the rest of the community deserves to know. Oh? What do you do at night with your girlfriend (or boyfriend or yourself)? The community deserves to know! Take it somewhere else. We dont want this here. You have shown to be very attached to this topic, so much so that you've just blown this completely out of proportion. There was no foul play intended in that conservation I was more or less told to fuck off if I don't like the tone. This is where I left the channel. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. This is not the kind of attitude we want in Gentoo. How will I be able to tell women on LinuxTag 2010 that we do want women in Gentoo with such tone in #gentoo-infra? You might be surprised to hear that I know more women that don't care or would laugh at such stuff (albeit possibly laughing more about the immature people stating such nonsense) than those who would be offended. Sure there are such women. But we also want to extend a welcome to the other women. Cheers, Ben
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 19 June 2010 19:59, Ciaran McCreesh ciaran.mccre...@googlemail.com wrote: On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:54:25 +0200 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: This is a point that deserves more consideration. One of the top reasons (as witnessed in forum discussions) Unfortunately, that's selecting a rather biased audience. The success of a forum depends upon the number of active posters it has. The number of active posters it has depends upon how many people need to post there to get answers to questions, and how many wrong answers have to be given before the right answer comes up. Thus, by selecting from the forums, you're picking an audience that likes talking endlessly about communities, not one that likes to answer a question once, correctly, and then change things so the question doesn't need to be answered again. That is an incredibly shortsighted and cynic look at the community. Keep it off this list. Does Gentoo really prefer to keep more sensitive people out instead of effectively getting rid of repeat offenders? All bringing more sensitive people in does is cripples the distribution's ability to delivery any technical improvements, since everyone's time is wasted worrying about the whiners Not at all. Instead of wasting time on flamewars, and people getting upset and leaving because of the attacks, we'd have a bunch of people who would know how to work together in a friendly way. That speeds up the process to come to technical improvements. Once again: keep your cynic, twisted look off this list. We have no use for it. Think about it. What kind of people would you rather have in Gentoo? Personally, I'd like to see Gentoo start having the kinds of people who deliver a better product, not the kinds of people who worry that using a gender-ambiguous cow as a logo might be offensive. Once again you are derailing the conversation. Nobody brought up anything about a logo. It is about whether Gentoo wants to keep around people like you, who continually attack others, or whether it prefers to have people who want to work together in a friendlier atmosphere. A smoother cooperation is in the interest of technical improvements too. There already is a distro that works like you envision it. It's called Exherbo. You should try it, you might like it. I would suggest you spend your time and energy on that, and leave Gentoo to do things the friendlier way. Cheers, Ben
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 23:03:31 +0200 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: That is an incredibly shortsighted and cynic look at the community. Keep it off this list. I consider that remark disrespectful. By rejecting comments in such an impolite manner, and without explaining why you think the comment is incorrect, you are poisoning the development atmosphere and making Gentoo a hostile place for contributors. Not at all. Instead of wasting time on flamewars, and people getting upset and leaving because of the attacks, we'd have a bunch of people who would know how to work together in a friendly way. That speeds up the process to come to technical improvements. Once again: keep your cynic, twisted look off this list. We have no use for it. I would like to know how well that process is working when it comes to delivering EAPI 4. Or, you know... Anything else for that matter... There already is a distro that works like you envision it. It's called Exherbo. You should try it, you might like it. I would suggest you spend your time and energy on that, and leave Gentoo to do things the friendlier way. That's not very friendly of you. I take it being friendly only applies to other friendly people, and that the second anyone loses their friendliness badge all your friends have to jump on them and tell them to go away? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/10 18:20, Sebastian Pipping wrote: And never forget, I don't care if you're upset that I filed 35 bugs for you. If you mean what you say: that's pretty insensitive. But I honestly don't care how you _feel_ about a bug. There's a defect. It's a fact. The only way to change it is to work on fixing it. Feelings have nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter how polite or gentle you describe a malfunction. It is and will be a bug. There's no place for emotions when you wish to work with plain boring facts. And again, I do not care how _you_ feel about it. Actually I don't have any preference or emotional connection to most packages. All I care about is that they (1) install properly out of the box and (2) work reasonably. So if I have to file eleventy dozen bugs for packages you maintain ... your fault. Don't leave such a mess. Stop whining and fix those issues. Yeah, maybe that's insensitive. Maybe I'm a bit rude. But it'll make you focus more on doing things properly so I don't even have to bother you in the first place :) And if everyone does a good job it'll be more awesome for all of us.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/19/10 23:20, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 23:03:31 +0200 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: That is an incredibly shortsighted and cynic look at the community. Keep it off this list. I consider that remark disrespectful. By rejecting comments in such an impolite manner, and without explaining why you think the comment is incorrect, you are poisoning the development atmosphere and making Gentoo a hostile place for contributors. Eh what? Ben notices that you're overly negative, and you attack him for noticing it ... in a thread discussing politeness and all that. This is pretty hilarious, but maybe this mailinglist is not the place for wannabe standup comedians. Not at all. Instead of wasting time on flamewars, and people getting upset and leaving because of the attacks, we'd have a bunch of people who would know how to work together in a friendly way. That speeds up the process to come to technical improvements. Once again: keep your cynic, twisted look off this list. We have no use for it. I would like to know how well that process is working when it comes to delivering EAPI 4. Or, you know... Anything else for that matter... Quite well, thanks for asking. There already is a distro that works like you envision it. It's called Exherbo. You should try it, you might like it. I would suggest you spend your time and energy on that, and leave Gentoo to do things the friendlier way. That's not very friendly of you. I take it being friendly only applies to other friendly people, and that the second anyone loses their friendliness badge all your friends have to jump on them and tell them to go away? Being the insensitive person I am (as sping has pointed out quite nicely) I'd say that you've shown repeatedly that you are not interested in engaging in a proper discussion. So having some negative karma hit you shouldn't be unexpected. Now please do as Ben said and leave us amateurs with our stupid moronic stuff (as you've pointed out multiple times) to do things wrongly while you have a chance to do them right over there. kthxbai, Patrick P.S. If you find any sarcasm, irony or similar you can keep it. Maybe you can put it to good use at last.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Saturday 19 June 2010 22:03:31 Ben de Groot wrote: It is about whether Gentoo wants to keep around people [...] who continually attack others Considering the number of attacks directed towards Paludis developers (and sometimes users), and lack of corresponding punishment, I can only assume the answer is yes.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Saturday 19 June 2010 23:01:33 Patrick Lauer wrote: you're actively stepping in the way of moving fists to complain that people punch you. Stop doing that. You mean banning trolls is an invitation for you to snip the trolling and publicly accusing me of banning them on a whim? (excerpt from http://www.gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2008-03.html#e2008-03-31T20_31_17.txt) So things are starting to look quite toasty. The nice paludis people even keep the bad vibes away: [17:12:44] *** Mode #paludis +b *...@gentoo/user/FamousToaster by dleverton [17:13:11] *** Mode #paludis +b d0pamin...@* by dleverton [17:13:15] -* dleverton has kicked fragalot from #paludis (bye bye) [17:13:19] -* dleverton has kicked D0pamine from #paludis (bye bye) [17:13:35] *** Mode #paludis -o dleverton by dleverton followed by 17:19 rane i'm a gentoo developer relations project member 17:19 fragalot Hi. :) 17:20 rane and i want to inform you that if you continue to behave the way you did on #paludis, your gentoo/user cloak will be removed Behaving that way meaning joining the channel and saying Hi ? Wow, that's great. So I must really recommend to users never to go near that place as they will have firebreathing dragons on their behind within minutes. Or asking for opinions on a technical issue is a form of trolling? http://www.gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2008-05.html#e2008-05-03T22_15_54.txt There's plenty more, but I don't think it would be productive to try and track down everything.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Saturday 19 June 2010 23:05:25 Domen Kožar wrote: http://xkcd.com/386/ s/wrong/attacking me in public/ and it might be closer.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Hello. As some people seem to be interested in examples of out of the line tone in Gentoo I feel like sharing an example just happened a few minutes ago: In #gentoo-infra people are talking about banging each others moms right now. I was told this is normal in there. As I mentioned it's not funny at all I was told that it's not funny to _me_ and that I don't have to hang around there if I don't like it. Now that's tone in Gentoo. Brilliant. Good night. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 19-06-2010 02:25, Sebastian Pipping wrote: Hello. As some people seem to be interested in examples of out of the line tone in Gentoo I feel like sharing an example just happened a few minutes ago: In #gentoo-infra people are talking about banging each others moms right now. I was told this is normal in there. As I mentioned it's not funny at all I was told that it's not funny to _me_ and that I don't have to hang around there if I don't like it. Now that's tone in Gentoo. Brilliant. Sebastian, you're confusing talk and jokes between developers on a particular private room with tone between members of the global community in public mediums. You're also missing an important point that some channels have their own environment and so one should start by understanding it. Furthermore, pushing for change and or imposing one's view on an established channel is not a nice way to deal with the residents of that channel. Another thing you've just done and should be aware of, is that you chose to air into the public private conservations. When any Gentoo developer decides to reveal a private discussion in the core ml or some other private medium into the general public without the other parties knowledge and or consent, that developer is abusing the other members' trust. You have shown to be very attached to this topic, so much so that you've just blown this completely out of proportion. There was no foul play intended in that conservation nor was there any abusive tone between the involved parties. It may have sounded that way to you, but there was no doubt for the involved parties. Please consider that some of the developers in this distribution have known each other for years and have their own communication code and style. Don't be too quick judging the other people and as others have said in this thread, assume others to have the best possible intention in their messages, until proven otherwise. Good night. Good night. Sebastian - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJMHDdoAAoJEC8ZTXQF1qEPMGgQAIeYYP0TOck2ym7DSV0VU1Wg SAetkRIdztUI7qjvLqtGFD76LFiY7iiQ+rVGJgTVETLviSGRhbCq1fZIXowJMeRi dzgb47q5Qb3MUUk76cS8Feq36XNv/tAg7FaKss7CTuG1RsCWqJkgEmm9dTyuMkoO 7r9lkMmAucyEuZ4ODwlGm3xRePLwqEoU4HpsQCuS4XK0svyxRTMWeAY2xyflHGek GeX3MDSh7PI6z5UhLnz9zdFWyZu+EYkAL/Fvxtk4uxVsKFpoCfqSAXvtStwLjmnr zDCIDVsBOwK8KzQa/wexeO96sjYtF8re8smt6aC2DyATUrDgrPUjTrktJJ8b+66v 4mtpgVrz1sCe1uh7tkaVBRqBtZcBqgKuAZoxcS4CrZaabS81538k6Y7pIRSFTS6S 5C38QsS0kL96mEz/5I1aLd5LSHVyQcmKNDxi5/cvXDl0kluLnxwSDJ3tWbsrdEZb vXkKi/gpUBy6/uiA4WWD68CGIpePTktRz1Kfi14qkpwbIqGa/ZDyoeHH3PAL0ssO vTuPWtyUnn9k/ho7Isw9nARmaC5kbA9c2tIi/hCyyv8mt+iYRXEDFP1ATVvbe7CX qbPHZlEpRlb5aaJa7yeZkWyCVCBGcumX56Fi31SfUkcWDVtaJ5LYubJEbt2vVi9Q ISbZ+fAztK71XcYV3CHG =OpWC -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 19-06-2010 05:20, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: On 19-06-2010 02:25, Sebastian Pipping wrote: Hello. As some people seem to be interested in examples of out of the line tone in Gentoo I feel like sharing an example just happened a few minutes ago: In #gentoo-infra people are talking about banging each others moms right now. I was told this is normal in there. As I mentioned it's not funny at all I was told that it's not funny to _me_ and that I don't have to hang around there if I don't like it. Now that's tone in Gentoo. Brilliant. Sebastian, you're confusing talk and jokes between developers on a particular private room with tone between members of the global community in public mediums. I corroborate Jorge, I usually (or used to when there was time) hang there and #gentoo-infra is like a big family. While I agree there is sometimes a certain tone in gentoo, #gentoo-infra is for sure *not* an example. - Angelo You're also missing an important point that some channels have their own environment and so one should start by understanding it. Furthermore, pushing for change and or imposing one's view on an established channel is not a nice way to deal with the residents of that channel. Another thing you've just done and should be aware of, is that you chose to air into the public private conservations. When any Gentoo developer decides to reveal a private discussion in the core ml or some other private medium into the general public without the other parties knowledge and or consent, that developer is abusing the other members' trust. You have shown to be very attached to this topic, so much so that you've just blown this completely out of proportion. There was no foul play intended in that conservation nor was there any abusive tone between the involved parties. It may have sounded that way to you, but there was no doubt for the involved parties. Please consider that some of the developers in this distribution have known each other for years and have their own communication code and style. Don't be too quick judging the other people and as others have said in this thread, assume others to have the best possible intention in their messages, until proven otherwise. Good night. Good night. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/18/2010 09:25 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: In #gentoo-infra snip #gentoo-infra is a private channel and you don't have to be in there. No public community members/users are in there. The tone can be anything that is acceptable to the normal inhabitants of said channel. This topic is old and I haven't said anything in the thread until now because I didn't have anything to contribute and it looks like you don't either. =/ On a final note, no wonder third parties claim[1] that Gentoo Developers have an affinity for in-fighting between members. I *strongly* feel that instead of threads like this, people can, and should be, leading by example and recruiting people that show similar feelings. As Patrick said[2], back to bug fixing and using time wisely. -Jeremy [1]: http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major [2]: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_1c5e5274c6b6cfc2d3683f51c3556a15.xml
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 6/17/10 3:13 AM, Ben de Groot wrote: There was a mostly silent agreement between some teams, [...] This is very worrying. Such things should never be a silent agreement. This needs to be open and transparent. This is policy that needs to be explicit. +100 I think we should pay more attention to documenting important policies. It just happens too often when people are confused by something, and then somebody pops up and says it's obvious, see our unstated policy. This is not to be understood as an attempt to policy everything. No. I'd prefer to have less policies, but well documented and agreed on by everybody. Paweł signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:32:51 +0200 Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: I wouldn't feel to bad if Gentoo is widely recognized as the distribution with the most friendly community around in 2011. Wouldn't you rather it be recognised as the distribution with the best product? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Ciaran McCreesh ciaran.mccre...@googlemail.com wrote: On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:32:51 +0200 Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: I wouldn't feel to bad if Gentoo is widely recognized as the distribution with the most friendly community around in 2011. Wouldn't you rather it be recognised as the distribution with the best product? Wouldn't you agree that unless you're a genius who can understand the entire system upfront with just the bit of documentation out there, the support given, in this case by the community, is part of the product?
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:32:51 +0200 Sebastian Pippingsp...@gentoo.org wrote: I wouldn't feel to bad if Gentoo is widely recognized as the distribution with the most friendly community around in 2011. Wouldn't you rather it be recognised as the distribution with the best product? LOL I thought that was already the case. I just couldn't help but say that. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:58:21 +0200 Auke Booij a...@tulcod.com wrote: Wouldn't you agree that unless you're a genius who can understand the entire system upfront with just the bit of documentation out there, the support given, in this case by the community, is part of the product? No. The community is what you fall back on when the product (of which the documentation is an important part) fails. The goal of the community should be to improve the product, not to perpetuate itself. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 17-06-2010 11:51, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:32:51 +0200 Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: I wouldn't feel to bad if Gentoo is widely recognized as the distribution with the most friendly community around in 2011. Wouldn't you rather it be recognised as the distribution with the best product? When I read that, the first question that was raised on me was: - The best product for what, whom? We can't simply put all possible Gentoo applications and users in one bag. Is it really good to think on Gentoo as a product? Can we do like Apple and treat our users like crap while still making them use our product? *No!* Unless we provide locking, GNU/Linux users will always have a choice. That choice can be to join the Gentoo community, or leave it. - Angelo
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 17-06-2010 12:08, Angelo Arrifano wrote: On 17-06-2010 11:51, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:32:51 +0200 Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: I wouldn't feel to bad if Gentoo is widely recognized as the distribution with the most friendly community around in 2011. Wouldn't you rather it be recognised as the distribution with the best product? When I read that, the first question that was raised on me was: - The best product for what, whom? We can't simply put all possible Gentoo applications and users in one bag. Is it really good to think on Gentoo as a product? Can we do like Apple and treat our users like crap while still making them use our product? *No!* Unless we provide locking, GNU/Linux users will always have a choice. That choice can be to join the Gentoo community, or leave it. - Angelo I apologize for replying to self but I felt we should all remember *what is Gentoo*. Or at least what it used to be.. http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/about.xml What is Gentoo? Gentoo is a free operating system based on either Linux or FreeBSD that can be automatically optimized and customized for just about any application or need. Extreme configurability, performance and a top-notch user and developer community are all hallmarks of the Gentoo experience. (...) *Of course, Gentoo is more than just the software it provides. It is a community built around a distribution* which is driven by more than 300 developers and thousands of users. The distribution project provides the means for the users to enjoy Gentoo: documentation, infrastructure (mailinglists, site, forums ...), release engineering, software porting, quality assurance, security followup, hardening and more.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:08:05 +0200 Angelo Arrifano mik...@gentoo.org wrote: That choice can be to join the Gentoo community, or leave it. The choice can be to use Gentoo, or not use Gentoo. If using Gentoo means being required to use bugzilla, the mailing lists, forums and IRC, then Gentoo has huge scalability problems. Providing one on one support takes an awful lot of manpower; the goal should be to improve the distribution so that most people don't encounter many bugs and can get all the support they need from the documentation. Thus things like GLEP 42 news items: they're a way of avoiding having thousands of users running to get support because they don't know what to do when a large change happens. If you think the community's the important part, you'd do the opposite: you'd not provide upfront instructions, and would instead see big changes as an opportunity to persuade more users to participate in the community by trying to help each other. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 17-06-2010 12:08, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:58:21 +0200 Auke Booij a...@tulcod.com wrote: Wouldn't you agree that unless you're a genius who can understand the entire system upfront with just the bit of documentation out there, the support given, in this case by the community, is part of the product? No. The community is what you fall back on when the product (of which the documentation is an important part) fails. The goal of the community should be to improve the product, not to perpetuate itself. Sounds like we need to nuke our forums (oh wait..), nuke our IRC channels and create a direct phone line for end-user support. - Angelo
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 17-06-2010 12:17, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:08:05 +0200 Angelo Arrifano mik...@gentoo.org wrote: I had some text written here. Why did you just remove it like this? Next time, please write some kind of marker (...) to tell you did crop some text. That choice can be to join the Gentoo community, or leave it. The choice can be to use Gentoo, or not use Gentoo. If using Gentoo means being required to use bugzilla, the mailing lists, forums and IRC, then Gentoo has huge scalability problems. I believe using Gentoo means reading the handbook, read forums, bugs and learn from them.. That's what I felt when I read the Gentoo philosophy for the first time. Providing one on one support takes an awful lot of manpower; the goal should be to improve the distribution so that most people don't encounter many bugs and can get all the support they need from the documentation. Are we trying to make Gentoo some kind of ubuntu? Thus things like GLEP 42 news items: they're a way of avoiding having thousands of users running to get support because they don't know what to do when a large change happens. If you think the community's the important part, you'd do the opposite: you'd not provide upfront instructions, and would instead see big changes as an opportunity to persuade more users to participate in the community by trying to help each other. - Angelo, PS: I'm exceeding my email bulk-reply quotas for today. I don't want to flood the mailing list so I'll step back and leave other people express their opinion.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/17/10 05:24, Jeroen Roovers wrote: Well, apart from explaining technical stuff[1] as in the example above, we could obviously explain how our developers work, how much most of them get payed for doing that, inform users of our services what they can and cannot expect to get. It sounds a bit like if we explained ourselves we could continue as is instead of improving processes on our side. Maybe it would improve the whole situation a bit but it pushes away resposibility to others and it wouldn't help developer to developer conflicts either. Maybe we can still make use of that idea. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Ciaran, the mindset I hear in your mail sounds a lot more like (my understanding of) Exherbo than Gentoo. I would appreciate if you stayed on topic which is improving tone in Gentoo. Thanks. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 14:20:34 +0200 Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: On 06/17/10 05:24, Jeroen Roovers wrote: Well, apart from explaining technical stuff[1] as in the example above, we could obviously explain how our developers work, how much most of them get payed for doing that, inform users of our services what they can and cannot expect to get. It sounds a bit like if we explained ourselves we could continue as is instead of improving processes on our side. Maybe it would improve the whole situation a bit [... ] Faced with users with little bug analysis/bug reporting/problem solving skills who merely exclaim that something is wrong, there's obviously a need to explain some of the basics. I guess that's not what this thread was initially about. :) [ ...] but it pushes away resposibility to others and it wouldn't help developer to developer conflicts either. Maybe we can still make use of that idea. I didn't intend to touch upon the subject of conflicts between developers and I am not going to. What you set out to discuss was the tone developers use that might scare away new users/developers.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 6/16/10 5:33 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy. This is really sad. And the kind of people who value that often make good developers if they also have good technical skills. I have searched a few places for rules on tone, I believe one can't solve this problem by using rules. - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary? I think the initiative is on the offended person's side. If a developer is being aggressive and needlessly argumentative towards other people, that's clearly a misconduct. Similarly for aggressive users. Could it be we expect perfection from each other instead seeking to understand and complement each other? That might be a part of it. What can we do to make Gentoo a friendlier community? We need leadership. I remember very well when the leader of one of the Gentoo projects I participate in reminded me to always say thanks to people who are helping us on Bugzilla. A small thing, but wasn't he right? I believe it's the project leaders and the Council who ultimately set the tone. Paweł signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 16-06-2010 18:39, Paweł Hajdan, Jr. wrote: On 6/16/10 5:33 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy. You are not the only one hearing that. If we jump over our own fences, that will be much more visible. This is really sad. And the kind of people who value that often make good developers if they also have good technical skills. I have searched a few places for rules on tone, I believe one can't solve this problem by using rules. - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary? I think the initiative is on the offended person's side. If a developer is being aggressive and needlessly argumentative towards other people, that's clearly a misconduct. Similarly for aggressive users. Could it be we expect perfection from each other instead seeking to understand and complement each other? That might be a part of it. What can we do to make Gentoo a friendlier community? We need leadership. I remember very well when the leader of one of the Gentoo projects I participate in reminded me to always say thanks to people who are helping us on Bugzilla. A small thing, but wasn't he right? Damn right. Motivation is something that is very easy to lose. If we developers don't show users that we appreciate their contributions (even when we don't), we risk losing potential contributions in the future. I've seen some bugs [sorry no references right now] where some developers point out facts in a *very* aggressive way. Even when what they have to say is true, they will scare away people. Is this what we want? I understand there are a lot of factors that leads into a aggressive response: private life, karma, the persistence of people doing things *wrong*, etc.. we are humans after all. But if such behavior is the rule instead of the exception, then I believe something is wrong and devrel should be brought into attention. - Angelo I believe it's the project leaders and the Council who ultimately set the tone. Paweł
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/16/10 07:43, Jeroen Roovers wrote: That's a conclusion first, then a premise? Tone is not a strength of Gentoo is my own obserservation. Please be more verbose - I fail to understand the core of your question. - How come tone is so rough when we actually meant to be a friendly community? Has it always been that way? What are you referring to? forums.g.o? bugs.g.o? #gentoo? Who, where, when, what channel, thread? I have oberved this in #gentoo, in the forums and basically every thread releated to Python 3 - that topic seams to be a heat bomb. Are links to concrete threads really necessary? I'm afraid we'll be arguing about that very case and justifications for this and that sentence then. My concern are all threads together. - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary? When did you point this out to devrel? I have previously contacted DevRel with concerns about their inactivity even with cases happening. I have not asked for specific actions on the mailing list, though. I agree with antarus that it shouldn't be the job of just DevRel to demand friendly tone on communication mediums but the job of everyone involved. Being probably guilty of all of the above, I'd say it would help if the Gentoo users would file GOOD bug reports, As I understand you say that bad bug reports make it hard for you to stay friendly. Correct? Any ideas what we could do on our end to improve the situation? Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Angelo, On 06/16/10 19:07, Angelo Arrifano wrote: I've seen some bugs [sorry no references right now] where some developers point out facts in a *very* aggressive way. bug replies, yes! I remember replies like you obviously have no clue how xzz works from developer to developer on a bug (though that's a case of infighting not insulting users.) Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Pawel, On 06/16/10 18:39, Paweł Hajdan, Jr. wrote: I have searched a few places for rules on tone, I believe one can't solve this problem by using rules. any ideas what could help? We need leadership. I remember very well when the leader of one of the Gentoo projects I participate in reminded me to always say thanks to people who are helping us on Bugzilla. A small thing, but wasn't he right? Yes. Giving credit where possible comes to my mind, too. Back when I was new to Gentoo I wondered if giving credit to others is really not done in Gentoo .. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 06/16/2010 04:47 PM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: Pawel, On 06/16/10 18:39, Paweł Hajdan, Jr. wrote: I have searched a few places for rules on tone, I believe one can't solve this problem by using rules. any ideas what could help? Well, I'm all about practical ideas, but they take manpower, and I'm already pushing too much workload as it is, blah blah blah .. but .. It seems to me that it's easier to respect everyone's work once you get to know them better. So, I say, bring back developer profiles like we used to have on GMN. I know dabbott's been doing some podcasts, and those are cool. So, yah, my simple idea is just to get to know the devs. :) Steve
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 16-06-2010 16:39, Paweł Hajdan, Jr. wrote: On 6/16/10 5:33 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary? I think the initiative is on the offended person's side. If a developer is being aggressive and needlessly argumentative towards other people, that's clearly a misconduct. Similarly for aggressive users. There is a common misconception here that I feel the need to address. It was never the direct responsibility of the Developer Relations team to police the communication mediums nor was it assigned the responsibility to enforce the CoC. The enforcement of the CoC was orginally assigned to the Proctors Project. When that project ended, that responsibility was not specifically assigned to any other project. Users and developers should be aware that the Developer Relations team besides taking care of the HR side of Gentoo, including the recruitment and retirement of developers, is responsible for mediation between developers (only developers) and may take disciplinary actions when developers misbehave, usually by request of another developer or team. The responsibility of mediation between users and developers, as well as the review of abusive behaviour by users has been assigned to the User Relations team for quite a few years now. There was a mostly silent agreement between some teams, including DevRel, UserRel, Council and Trustees, that after the Proctors project was terminated, the enforcement of the CoC, including any moderation or banning actions, would fall to the UserRel team. What can we do to make Gentoo a friendlier community? We need leadership. I remember very well when the leader of one of the Gentoo projects I participate in reminded me to always say thanks to people who are helping us on Bugzilla. A small thing, but wasn't he right? I believe it's the project leaders and the Council who ultimately set the tone. Leadership can help by making people focus on goals, promoting shared views and make developers less likely to get entangled on flame wars. However, even though those with more prominent roles like project leaders and council members have an extra responsibility as their actions have greater exposure, it's critical that all members of the community realize that it's up to each and every one of us to set the tone. One of the goals of the CoC was to make it clear that every single one of us affects the tone of the community and that each of us can and should make an effort to promote a better tone that will ultimately lead to a friendlier community. Paweł - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJMGWXAAAoJEC8ZTXQF1qEPoWAQAIy3Bw7yy6TPkwhYrvEmDsyA /Yg7f4x7yDo/oB3TBQxXYtYg2ydVrI3racml6h+7BWPu1v8Qz2nwYI3MsV31TW8H 6W6UGV+stcns55B96iw2EMU3xjmrD7yeuLhHcs7BRKDhjgGutJc4Qaz1rWTnVtkA SLaCVJqt3UB4ZHUNSceOsnb2ISxln4WUdYxHvWD1LHzFjElKSznLBdV6q1HKN6Ml +kdfz44XuCs0Wpqv0OZPenXCUHwkGRmHopc1hZNCooH7bBZ6zopXEWgTX0tzR0EB O4FQ6EjCPdJQONDaGbABA4hj/mZpR36qW2AX98FywFHxEn1ery+CDWqV3IxwhOGU btzZHBzEZjr7RWKAXlLPfvHm7L/hU1oZ4xcrtxmLuSIaqP7MLbtJiHfWVO3a0qsQ osKHm3xsocyftIRhVa+4LjnefRY+R8gvLpT4L4srOBkaEFFyz0DlEZUvOLSq/l4M TAWOristt3hFW5ZfGt6Dgxt1bpYoUAC+2qeSI65NHuUynhLmJ1CpFcuOwqG1Zqsd ZXmAbq+qfOyflLbXDb/wqFBaM9yW3n2rvrBH2KuN9+lz0S8lAVz/ciHKoOZl7tx5 n53WG40pBqfrtfLEg64cxniRRzz0J9SFQwEkfc01D4yUOfFE7gZNIHrCTnFrrJ10 NyOuMZBtdnlfw8DSXCgr =lXF0 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 16-06-2010 05:03, Alec Warner wrote: On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: Could it be we expect perfection from each other instead seeking to understand and complement each other? What can we do to make Gentoo a friendlier community? I haven't seen the crazy crap on the lists that was present in 2007-2008 so I'm actually fairly happy with the current style. I'd love to throw around more compliments but I tend to compliment people by using their software and sending them patches...or making fun of them on IRC, either way. Sebastian, I understand your concern, but as Alec puts it, we have gone a long way since the 2007-2008 low regarding this type of behaviour. I'm not advocating that communication in Gentoo mediums has become perfect, but I don't see all the rudeness and lack of respect and empathy that you see, not in a global manner. There are a few cases where people could and should improve their behaviour, but let's not forget we're a technical community and so it's imho an illusion to expect us to have a hugs and kisses tone. But yes, everyone participating in Gentoo mediums should strive to be courteous, respectful and promote debates on ideas. Thanks for your interest, Sebastian [1] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/contract.xml [2] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml [3] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJMGWjYAAoJEC8ZTXQF1qEPNjcP/08Amjt1n2cAL4cxEY6/gyer QUrITGY/ZKy9RrPxHd/wxzJ6OBot/nk1oCnwwA/T1HVdIabNoZHSDAQrEwhaNiKO cA5hL/z2IeG0L8NTXjqphc2hFA0rdmkheWEuJ9vFwDf/9lMuOoYtiKOh9uvGOC3V 9d5Df+1/SpMd9/xKRj0G8ed6iLoR2qM+uhBB11MYJtdVDnD/I3E3gZlp8YXk6c/k wg11JbTVWzGySOSU4Qqx8kdEQFM82D6Wee+sw8MOb208Ol7MfU3mILguvenrW9Tt smfcxYym8Ohqtn9571C4RE1AA990DH+gCLQQ6oGh67kprpxF+/hXD0qHz3FOXPP9 ep7SSAGqyHlRa6cAZQRjA0FBXx/8m1zkKqyeQXwm+OCPemyJd9McL2nFazC01EAh JVEIjXof1F58i7Z2b8hIIOVGSuLRiBYJgAdfMmo8nT+eoPlu6iIxY5Jny/QCY6Q/ 8QrYEhr1JyXkzVSqszHwHXMdVCHyySYVCprgux7T1HcKqL4zLz7hmcjFT6wvHizH r8aPWWnmegn1nyIIznGOpIsOgcmo0dlrsBnjojdFPFZMLjOl8C83561nNWNTracF xOAsVat05L+GjY4c8tD+cEPKMKKqvcX7GYmuXIGlm+5HtsVXmf6XelUEGnuPFCCj neHxWtb7oD/hZUfw7buT =nKgk -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Jorge, On 06/17/10 02:01, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: There was a mostly silent agreement between some teams, including DevRel, UserRel, Council and Trustees, that after the Proctors project was terminated, the enforcement of the CoC, including any moderation or banning actions, would fall to the UserRel team. Why on the UserRel team? Am I missing obvious things? Leadership can help by making people focus on goals, promoting shared views and make developers less likely to get entangled on flame wars. However, even though those with more prominent roles like project leaders and council members have an extra responsibility as their actions have greater exposure, it's critical that all members of the community realize that it's up to each and every one of us to set the tone. One of the goals of the CoC was to make it clear that every single one of us affects the tone of the community and that each of us can and should make an effort to promote a better tone that will ultimately lead to a friendlier community. Well said. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
Jorge, On 06/17/10 02:14, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: Sebastian, I understand your concern, but as Alec puts it, we have gone a long way since the 2007-2008 low regarding this type of behaviour. I'm not advocating that communication in Gentoo mediums has become perfect, but I don't see all the rudeness and lack of respect and empathy that you see, not in a global manner. maybe is has been worse, maybe other projects do worse. I have been to IRC channels of other distros and went away quickly, yes. Still: I use Gentoo for about a year; during that year I have seen many cases. There are a few cases where people could and should improve their behaviour, but let's not forget we're a technical community and so it's imho an illusion to expect us to have a hugs and kisses tone. I was expecting someone to bring up hugs and kisses as you say. In my impression other technical projects do much better in that regard so it doesn't seem impossible. KDE and Xiph come to my mind: they do better. Our low number of female developers could also be an indicator for the atmosphere in here. I wouldn't feel to bad if Gentoo is widely recognized as the distribution with the most friendly community around in 2011. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 17-06-2010 00:17, Sebastian Pipping wrote: Jorge, On 06/17/10 02:01, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: There was a mostly silent agreement between some teams, including DevRel, UserRel, Council and Trustees, that after the Proctors project was terminated, the enforcement of the CoC, including any moderation or banning actions, would fall to the UserRel team. Why on the UserRel team? Am I missing obvious things? Because the CoC is about communication on Gentoo mediums and that involves our global community. One of the roles and goals of the User Relations project is to mediate between users and developers. Prior to the Proctors project and in most cases after the Proctors were dissolved, it has fall into a UserRel member to intervene on the MLs when a flame war burst and it's to UserRel that abusive behaviour in the communication channels is being reported, mostly by users, and even appeals about decisions made by moderators of other forums are being sent. - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJMGW+8AAoJEC8ZTXQF1qEPfagP/1nCDhjDs68Tn8ZbWjUrEckB +1X6/i8Py7NCFIujb8AiCxMbosoKnd76rlUrQ3mJ3eeJAInPbKakKlK32Y2OJKkZ lp716kmCeb6tI4bcgc4U4omKPJVInWPIg0zyJ3RG+8lO+KtZYUSb7gJkXFMKGRyr 811R+nZT0st7sTiHa3iNh2uZ2pm2TWVF2TzSkU6c2+D9ul+bStxxif7Q3VcZp+B/ kRTsLP6aeI3yJsxwsFGxecLHP3BiL7Ngp3K3jiSpms4aI+vbv+bRL98wob7g4UXe WnMUHt0Secj5umrliCWoMdzgfjxG7hrZ9G15Ja03cmyQid1ecuS2khHhyne3khYZ 2xABXlEc+tgK7YOcocoVgDOKzHoF79iLd1z4fKD+HHcLKLkwwtvugBEm0XNv0azP XeCmnV+3FSjS86vFKU6kYfIy5OdFLU1eVAWND1xD0gDj4QH4IKI1m2LSfSF8NgBL cTQ3sjFj3z7WZ1nCYGbUQFwIIYCj+2wP1doGyc71LMxZMU5rptZC6cUhpMR18lgS BZkQZli1aqUFCNpHvYQOjIyfWG4/R+Mx6DvT/rTyYcaV9b6jysQyNH1dbA8DWvSf Z/P7vl9jwBCgfP3CLljRfLazm8SizW0OwClSK7qt5po5poH4WHOtG5DwHxRZ3vod TaO7Fgo+4J0c7KyB7fJ3 =czZC -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On 17 June 2010 02:01, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto jmbsvice...@gentoo.org wrote: On 16-06-2010 16:39, Paweł Hajdan, Jr. wrote: On 6/16/10 5:33 AM, Sebastian Pipping wrote: - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary? I think the initiative is on the offended person's side. If a developer is being aggressive and needlessly argumentative towards other people, that's clearly a misconduct. Similarly for aggressive users. There is a common misconception here that I feel the need to address. It was never the direct responsibility of the Developer Relations team to police the communication mediums nor was it assigned the responsibility to enforce the CoC. DevRel is repsonsible for solving conflicts between developers. Apparently I am not the only one who expects DevRel to take an active role in enforcing the CoC, at least where it concerns inter-developer relations. If this is not DevRel's task, then this should be made explicit. There was a mostly silent agreement between some teams, including DevRel, UserRel, Council and Trustees, that after the Proctors project was terminated, the enforcement of the CoC, including any moderation or banning actions, would fall to the UserRel team. This is very worrying. Such things should never be a silent agreement. This needs to be open and transparent. This is policy that needs to be explicit. Cheers, Ben
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 20:14, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto jmbsvice...@gentoo.org wrote: There are a few cases where people could and should improve their behaviour, but let's not forget we're a technical community and so it's imho an illusion to expect us to have a hugs and kisses tone. But yes, everyone participating in Gentoo mediums should strive to be courteous, respectful and promote debates on ideas. I agree that we need to be courteous, respectful and promote debates on ideas, but I disagree that we have to accept subtle opposites because the topic might be touchy. I'm somewhat confused about why there can't be a team of people who moderate the mailing list. That solution seems effective for most other Internet communities. Is it a question of manpower? -- Jacob For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now — and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. Are you ready?
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 00:14:28 +0200 Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: On 06/16/10 07:43, Jeroen Roovers wrote: That's a conclusion first, then a premise? Tone is not a strength of Gentoo is my own obserservation. Please be more verbose - I fail to understand the core of your question. I was responding two the two previous (quoted) paragraphs: 1 Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo. 2 As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the 2 atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy. and the question was whether the atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy(2) equals bad tone(1), whereby the latter paragraph(the premise) serves to prove the former (the conclusion). In my humble opinion, a lack of respect or a lack of empathy is not the same as bad tone. Whereby I take bad tone to mean is communicating in a bad, possibly malicious way, like condescending or scathing in nature. I guess bad communication could result from a lack of respect, but that presupposes a history between the parties that do not show each other respect. A lack of empathy is something that really does bite us, as is already explained by Roy, with his three cause of cumulative misunderstanding. There's a language barrier, English is *not* the easiest language to bring an unmistakable point across in, and on top of that there is a problem, between people from different nations, of different sexes and of different ages. I'd say there is yet a fourth cause, which is that the Internet (that thing appearing on your computer screen) offers far fewer moral handholds than your typical brick-and-mortar environment with real people in them. I have oberved this in #gentoo, in the forums and basically every thread releated to Python 3 - that topic seams to be a heat bomb. Are links to concrete threads really necessary? I'm afraid we'll be arguing about that very case and justifications for this and that sentence then. My concern are all threads together. That's not much of an example. I agree with antarus that it shouldn't be the job of just DevRel to demand friendly tone on communication mediums but the job of everyone involved. Well, on top of that, devrel already tried that once, and I think it didn't work. As I understand you say that bad bug reports make it hard for you to stay friendly. Correct? No, it is difficult to write a good response to any bug report. If you need to write a response at all, the report is probably so bad it needs to be closed (perhaps to be reopened later). A bad bug report takes more time to wrangle than a good one, so the more bad bug reports, the longer you need to wrangle them and the less time you have to elaborate, inform, help or thank the reporters. Bad bug reports do make me hesitantly find ways to say more with less, which some reporters might find rude. It still isn't very obvious to me when I might behave badly in someone else's view, but I do respond to such concerns when they are raised (and take even more time to either defend my view or to change the Summary around or to request more specific information or output pertaining to a changed description). Any ideas what we could do on our end to improve the situation? Well, apart from explaining technical stuff[1] as in the example above, we could obviously explain how our developers work, how much most of them get payed for doing that, inform users of our services what they can and cannot expect to get. jer [1] We have a couple of pretty good guides[2][3] about using bugzilla.g.o, but I suspect bug reporters who report badly tend to be the same people who skip a three page lecture on how to report bugs. [2] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/bugzilla-howto.xml the official thing, as referred to on https://bugzilla.gentoo.org/. [3] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/bug-wranglers/index.xml the guide for bug-wranglers slash project page.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
sounds like something that should be on gentoo-project -mike
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: Hello! Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo. As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy. I have searched a few places for rules on tone, looking at the Gentoo Social Contract [1], the Code of Conduct [2] and the Philosophy of Gentoo [3]. In a way the Code of Conduct defines what good and bad behavior is. The term Acceptable behaviour may make sense as a counterpart to Unacceptable behaviour but feels like what you can get away with to me anyhow. We had enumerated bad behavior in the past and people walked the line (Ciaran is a good example; but there were others.) We had a rather open policy where DevRel had leeway to 'take necessary action' and community members cried out for abuse due to lack of transparency. We had COC enforcers that would attempt to moderate mailing list traffic. I don't think any of these were a raging success. I like the open policy one because I think it makes DevRel's job easier and the buck needs to stop somewhere. Here is a hint; if you want to stay on as a developer; don't piss of HR (or infra, or probably a number of other groups that could make your life hell.) What is surprising me: - How come tone is so rough when we actually meant to be a friendly community? Has it always been that way? I don't see the tone as tough; but you have to understand that I work with a bunch of socially inept engineers on a daily basis. People writing dumb crap in email is something that happens every day. I think a lot of the 'bad' threads people just reply to email every 5-10 minutes (I used to do this years ago...) Stop reading email that often. Reply to a thread once a day. If you need to converse in real time you can use jabber or irc or whatever. You tend to reach a logical consensus quicker over chat than over email. Avoid people you know you interact badly with. Do Not Feed The Trolls. I remember at work often I'd be dragged into a thread with one of the Ganeti guys; he would complain about how cfengine was awesome and puppet was crap. I tended to stop replying to that guy when that subject came up (he is a nice fellow; but holy lord the puppet vs cfengine debate could rage forever.) - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary? Probably because DevRel is small. If the community expects people to act a certain way I'd expect 'the community' to call people on it; not necessarily just DevRel. Could it be we expect perfection from each other instead seeking to understand and complement each other? What can we do to make Gentoo a friendlier community? I haven't seen the crazy crap on the lists that was present in 2007-2008 so I'm actually fairly happy with the current style. I'd love to throw around more compliments but I tend to compliment people by using their software and sending them patches...or making fun of them on IRC, either way. Thanks for your interest, Sebastian [1] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/contract.xml [2] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml [3] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tone in Gentoo
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:33:27 +0200 Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo. As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy. That's a conclusion first, then a premise? I have searched a few places for rules on tone, looking at the Gentoo Social Contract [1], the Code of Conduct [2] and the Philosophy of Gentoo [3]. In a way the Code of Conduct defines what good and bad behavior is. The term Acceptable behaviour may make sense as a counterpart to Unacceptable behaviour but feels like what you can get away with to me anyhow. - How come tone is so rough when we actually meant to be a friendly community? Has it always been that way? What are you referring to? forums.g.o? bugs.g.o? #gentoo? Who, where, when, what channel, thread? - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary? When did you point this out to devrel? Could it be we expect perfection from each other instead seeking to understand and complement each other? What can we do to make Gentoo a friendlier community? Being probably guilty of all of the above, I'd say it would help if the Gentoo users would file GOOD bug reports, and would know when to use forums.g.o instead, but since I don't know what you are really referring to, I decline to answer that one. :) Regards, jer
