Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Chris Gianelloni wrote: I have no plans on releasing *any* kind of nightly *anything* so long as Release Engineering still gets minimal testing from only a *tiny* subset of our developer pool when we are basically *begging* for it. I've been wondering about why I don't think I've ever seen an announcement of a release candidate on DistroWatch for example. With the current participation level, I just don't see it as possible. Remember, we switched from quarterly to bi-annual releases for a reason. We simply didn't have the man power, CPU power, nor time to do vigorous enough testing in the much more shortened time frame. I'm going to be asking for Release Testers again once I return, and if last year's turn out was any indicator (50+ people volunteering, about 5 actually helping *at all*), the chances of a project such as nightly builds ever taking off is well beyond our means at this time. Well, I hope this year's turn out will be better, cause I'm planning on using 2007.0 as a starting point. I will continue to test 2007.0 to see if at least it boots on my hardware :) Patrick(DrEeevil) has kindly offered use of his servers at http://gentooexperimental.org/ and has expressed interest in stage3's as have some other people earlier in this thread. My plan is to start off with amd64 install cd only to keep work load down. This will include an amd64 stage3. Probably there will be stage3's for x86 and maybe another architecture, I think Patrick mentioned PPC, unless they turn out to be too much trouble. I'm hoping to do something between weekly and monthly releases. It would be great if I could have at least one other person to do this with me and maybe some release engineering support for when I have a silly question. Marijn -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF7EoKp/VmCx0OL2wRAn3eAJ9cOIoiMBE8sHJ08hCV6S/5OcLiMgCbB33l +hNgc9kvoTSuFc78mG4lyxo= =CLhv -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
On Mon, 2007-03-05 at 17:49 +0100, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Chris Gianelloni wrote: I have no plans on releasing *any* kind of nightly *anything* so long as Release Engineering still gets minimal testing from only a *tiny* subset of our developer pool when we are basically *begging* for it. I've been wondering about why I don't think I've ever seen an announcement of a release candidate on DistroWatch for example. Well, the fact that we don't *have* release candidates probably plays something into it. ;] With the current participation level, I just don't see it as possible. Remember, we switched from quarterly to bi-annual releases for a reason. We simply didn't have the man power, CPU power, nor time to do vigorous enough testing in the much more shortened time frame. I'm going to be asking for Release Testers again once I return, and if last year's turn out was any indicator (50+ people volunteering, about 5 actually helping *at all*), the chances of a project such as nightly builds ever taking off is well beyond our means at this time. Well, I hope this year's turn out will be better, cause I'm planning on using 2007.0 as a starting point. I will continue to test 2007.0 to see if at least it boots on my hardware :) Patrick(DrEeevil) has kindly offered use of his servers at http://gentooexperimental.org/ and has expressed interest in stage3's as have some other people earlier in this thread. My plan is to start off with amd64 install cd only to keep work load down. This will include an amd64 stage3. Probably there will be stage3's for x86 and maybe another architecture, I think Patrick mentioned PPC, unless they turn out to be too much trouble. I'm hoping to do something between weekly and monthly releases. Do *not* make them even *appear* to be anything related to Release Engineering. We don't want to support anything more than we currently do. What does this mean? It means that if you insist on doing your own version of some kind of nightly/weekly/monthly/etc that you're entirely on your own. Like I have said before, Release Engineering currently does weekly stage builds on several architectures (Alpha/AMD64/PPC/x86) for QA purposes. We simply don't release those stages because we have exactly 0 intentions on ever supporting them. It would be great if I could have at least one other person to do this with me and maybe some release engineering support for when I have a silly question. Silly question, sure. However, my answer to you is going to be use the same scripts Release Engineering does on this. As I said, we have automated stages being built, we just don't test them thoroughly enough to be comfortable giving them to our users under *any* circumstances. If you're willing to put in the work to create the stages, ensuring you have some kind of mirror space for them, and plan on supporting them yourself, then more power to you. You definitely won't hear me complain about it. However, as soon as your work starts impacting mine, such as when I start getting a bunch of bogus bug reports on the non-release stages, you're going to get quite a bit of complaining from me. The *last* thing that we need is some half-assed non-working stages out there in the wild, with users using them, then complaining to us, thereby *increasing* our workload. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
Denis Dupeyron wrote: On 3/3/07, Daniel Robbins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right now, installing Gentoo is a chore, and the many wonderful choices of Gentoo end up making the install rather complicated. So I definitely support ideas to help make our installation process better/streamlined and less confusing. There are a lot of easy little things that could be done. What do you think of a simplified handbook ? One that presents a lot fewer choices to the user, in order to be less confusing. I don't mean replacing the current handbook which is one great piece of work, but writing a Gentoo in 10 easy steps kind of guide. One of us may even have written one already. If not, I'm willing to write or help writing one if that's considered a good idea. Next time, read the documentation first. http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml We've several quickstart/faq-type guides, and an alternate installation howto. Man, I wish more developers would read the documentation, or at least bother to get a general idea of what we have. There are some good resources to be found with even minimal searching. Anyway, re-writing the handbooks for multiple releases? Oh, hell no. It's an incredible amount of work even with several GDP devs helping out to get it ready for each point release, let alone when most of the team is inactive, busy with real life, or otherwise unavailable. Doing it nightly, weekly, or even monthly? That ain't gonna work. And don't talk about completely unsupported, so no need to write docs. The main purpose here seems to be for hardware functionality, and that changes from release to release. From trivial things like s/dobladecenter/doslowusb to major things like new boot parameters and RAID modules, to say nothing of how networking and baselayout change. It's irresponsible to say to users, Here, download this if you want to, but you have to figure out how the heck it works, because we're not telling, nyah nyah! Users: WTF no docs? Gentoo sux! YOU sux! So from the standpoint of the most active GDP member who'd have to write the HBs 200 hours a week to keep up, it ain't gonna work too well. :) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
On 3/3/07, Denis Dupeyron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do you think of a simplified handbook ? One that presents a lot fewer choices to the user, in order to be less confusing. YES, it's needed. The handbook didn't turn out quite as I expected it to. It should document a typical installation process with small links to alternate approaches and options that a user might opt to follow. And it should be one (web) page. In my opinion. -Daniel -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
On Sat, 3 Mar 2007 01:34:36 -0700 Daniel Robbins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/3/07, Denis Dupeyron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do you think of a simplified handbook ? One that presents a lot fewer choices to the user, in order to be less confusing. YES, it's needed. The handbook didn't turn out quite as I expected it to. It should document a typical installation process with small links to alternate approaches and options that a user might opt to follow. I asked for this approach back when the handbook was first created. It was rejected by the docs team for being too complicated to maintain. Following Sven's (I think...) suggestion, I instead ported the quick install guide (which is one page, and doesn't go off on lots of weird tangents) to the archs upon which I was working at the time. -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org Web : http://ciaranm.org/ Paludis, the secure package manager : http://paludis.pioto.org/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
On 3/3/07, Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I asked for this approach back when the handbook was first created. It was rejected by the docs team for being too complicated to maintain. Following Sven's (I think...) suggestion, I instead ported the quick install guide (which is one page, and doesn't go off on lots of weird tangents) to the archs upon which I was working at the time. Yes, that was my request and I was told that this was the plan of attack, but the end result looked nothing like this. Just to be clear, I think the *official* documentation should be simple, with a linear path and non-intrusive links for non-standard stuff, and should fit on a single (Web) page. I don't think that a quick install guide solves the problem. (I know *you're* not saying it does, just pointing it out...) The official documentation should be incredibly efficient to use, eliminating the need for a quick install guide. -Daniel -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
Daniel Robbins wrote: Yes, that was my request and I was told that this was the plan of attack, but the end result looked nothing like this. Just to be clear, I think the *official* documentation should be simple, with a linear path and non-intrusive links for non-standard stuff, and should fit on a single (Web) page. I don't think that a quick install guide solves the problem. (I know *you're* not saying it does, just pointing it out...) The official documentation should be incredibly efficient to use, eliminating the need for a quick install guide. I wholy agree on this point, yet I see a tiny problem. If you scrap all the different paths in the handbook by keeping only one standard path, I'd say about 50% of the whole thing is arch dependant : - partitioning (i've never used anything other than x86/amd64) - kernel setup - bootloader Common stuff: - stage setup - rsync, emerge system/world - network setup - additional utilities (such as cron, syslog) Although I really would like to see a shorter guide, I think there are a few issues (like these, but maybe others?) to layout first. Ideas, comments ? Rémi PS, my 50% figure may not be very accurate :) don't feel offended if i'm way off -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
Daniel Robbins wrote: And it should be one (web) page. http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1 -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
I think that would be a more useful default view of the docs, but still doesn't quite get it perfect. Here is what I think would be ideal: One shorter Web page covering the installation process, with links to supplemental information that is currently cluttering everything up. I don't need to read a page about all the different options I have when installing Gentoo, or see a complete list of boot options. That's supplemental info. If I need that I can click on the link. What I don't like is having to click on links to get to the next step of the process. All key steps should be covered tersely on a single page. Make sense? Maybe the solution is as simple as making the quick install guide the default doc and pepper it with links into the handbook for additional information. I think that could require relatively little work and do the trick. -Daniel On 3/3/07, Simon Stelling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Daniel Robbins wrote: And it should be one (web) page. http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1 -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Robbins wrote: I think that would be a more useful default view of the docs, but still doesn't quite get it perfect. Here is what I think would be ideal: One shorter Web page covering the installation process, with links to supplemental information that is currently cluttering everything up. I don't need to read a page about all the different options I have when installing Gentoo, or see a complete list of boot options. That's supplemental info. If I need that I can click on the link. What I don't like is having to click on links to get to the next step of the process. All key steps should be covered tersely on a single page. Make sense? [SNIP] -Daniel It sure makes sense ! You mean a web page with options per choise pointing to a section when that choise is made (consolidate existing install installs) example : Select the arch do you want to install gentoo on : [X]x86 []arm []x86_64 - -- go to url of handbook for x86 Select a iso: [X]base []full - -- go to url where mirrors can be selected for x86 and an explenation how to write the iso You selected x86-base-iso. Select which stage you want to start the installation : []stage1 []stage2 [X]stage3 - -- go to url of handbook for stage3_install etc etc .. That way you have en entire tree of diffirent ways to install but not the clutter of the other options because every select you do excludes sections of unneeded other install_documents. Kind of preventing the cluttering by _choise_. Maybe it's a daft implementation of your proposal ? My 0,5 cents Blokkie -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF6VeoR6N46HXxiJERArEtAJ4l7HGBBzLCXA8piA9KShaS0xMuHQCghUHQ 6gJC0j5X21VetOZPOvAp3qM= =87eH -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
On 3/3/07, Josh Saddler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Next time, read the documentation first. http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml We've several quickstart/faq-type guides, and an alternate installation howto. Man, I wish more developers would read the documentation, or at least bother to get a general idea of what we have. There are some good resources to be found with even minimal searching. I did read the documentation. My point was that in addition to the (very good) documentation we already have, there was a place for something simpler to use for the beginner. And I was offering my help. Your reaction makes me want to back off. Denis. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
Thibaut Fernagut wrote: It sure makes sense ! You mean a web page with options per choise pointing to a section when that choise is made (consolidate existing install installs) example : Select the arch do you want to install gentoo on : [X]x86 []arm []x86_64 -- go to url of handbook for x86 Select a iso: [X]base []full -- go to url where mirrors can be selected for x86 and an explenation how to write the iso You selected x86-base-iso. Select which stage you want to start the installation : []stage1 []stage2 [X]stage3 -- go to url of handbook for stage3_install I'm not sure how will it look from the maintenance POV. If you want to have such a documentation, why don't you talk to the documentation team and/or try to implement it yourself? If you can maintain an up-to-date guide with reasonable low manpower, you can use it as an argument that our approach really works and is worth the effort. As a sidenote, most of those choices you've mentioned either don't exist at all now (stage selection) or have no real effect at the installation process (ISO selection). That way you have en entire tree of diffirent ways to install but not the clutter of the other options because every select you do excludes sections of unneeded other install_documents. Kind of preventing the cluttering by _choise_. You should read our x86 quickinstall guide [1], if you already haven't done so. If it still doesn't suit your needs, it would be best to continue this dicsussion at the gentoo-doc mailing list. And please remember that sometimes it's easier and more readable to inculde an extra sentence for a step that some people might have done earlier than to include myriad of options to choose from. [1] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-quickinstall.xml Cheers, -jkt -- cd /local/pub more beer /dev/mouth -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
On Sat, 2007-03-03 at 02:50 -0500, Chris Gianelloni wrote: [snip] Remember, we switched from quarterly to bi-annual releases for a reason. FYI. This archived copy was from 2004 http://staff.osuosl.org/~cshields/gentoosurvey/#doc_chap8 We may wish to consider rerunning this survey annually to see where we stand. We simply didn't have the man power, CPU power, nor time to do vigorous enough testing in the much more shortened time frame. I'm going to be asking for Release Testers again once I return, and if last year's turn out was any indicator (50+ people volunteering, about 5 actually helping *at all*), the chances of a project such as nightly builds ever taking off is well beyond our means at this time. -- Ned Ludd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
On 3/1/07, Cory Visi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With Gentoo, once you are up and running, releases become very unimportant. What do you think? That's true, but ever wonder why so many people expend so much effort to have easy-to-use installers? It turns out that if installation is a pain, many fewer people actually end up using your software. Gentoo is more than just Portage. Now, maybe people in Linux land have been too obsessed with having a super-friendly installer - but it needs to be friendly-enough (and compatible-enough) and it might be a good idea to take a fresh look at how to streamline the Gentoo install experience. Right now, installing Gentoo is a chore, and the many wonderful choices of Gentoo end up making the install rather complicated. So I definitely support ideas to help make our installation process better/streamlined and less confusing. There are a lot of easy little things that could be done. -Daniel -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
On 3/3/07, Daniel Robbins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right now, installing Gentoo is a chore, and the many wonderful choices of Gentoo end up making the install rather complicated. So I definitely support ideas to help make our installation process better/streamlined and less confusing. There are a lot of easy little things that could be done. What do you think of a simplified handbook ? One that presents a lot fewer choices to the user, in order to be less confusing. I don't mean replacing the current handbook which is one great piece of work, but writing a Gentoo in 10 easy steps kind of guide. One of us may even have written one already. If not, I'm willing to write or help writing one if that's considered a good idea. Denis. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
On Sat, 2007-03-03 at 08:21 +0100, Denis Dupeyron wrote: What do you think of a simplified handbook ? One that presents a lot fewer choices to the user, in order to be less confusing. I don't mean replacing the current handbook which is one great piece of work, but writing a Gentoo in 10 easy steps kind of guide. One of us may even have written one already. If not, I'm willing to write or help writing one if that's considered a good idea. http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-quickinstall.xml I'm not chiming in on the rest of the thread right now, since I am about to head on a plane and won't be available for a bit, but to put it simply, I have no plans on releasing *any* kind of nightly *anything* so long as Release Engineering still gets minimal testing from only a *tiny* subset of our developer pool when we are basically *begging* for it. I'm not expecting the level of required testing to diminish just because we do more builds, and in fact I expect it to increase. With the current participation level, I just don't see it as possible. Remember, we switched from quarterly to bi-annual releases for a reason. We simply didn't have the man power, CPU power, nor time to do vigorous enough testing in the much more shortened time frame. I'm going to be asking for Release Testers again once I return, and if last year's turn out was any indicator (50+ people volunteering, about 5 actually helping *at all*), the chances of a project such as nightly builds ever taking off is well beyond our means at this time. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote: I was wondering what is keeping us from releasing a minimal install cd more often than we do now. Isn't almost everything needed for it already in the stable tree and thus tested? And if so isn't it possible to fully automate generation of these cd's? Time and sanity. Sure, it can be built pretty quickly, but there's a bit of testing that needs to go into it before it can be released to the mirrors. Release time is hectic enough, and you want us (releng) to do it more often than bi-annually? Also, what's the point? Everything you use to install from the minimal is fetched from the internet. The only thing that an updated minimal would give us is a slightly more hardware support during the install. -- Andrew Gaffneyhttp://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Installer Project -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 11:49:25AM +0100, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote: I was wondering what is keeping us from releasing a minimal install cd more often than we do now. Isn't almost everything needed for it already in the stable tree and thus tested? And if so isn't it possible to fully automate generation of these cd's? As agaffney points out, it's more that our actual CD releases are intended to be well tested. While we could do daily builds of the install CD, you really would not gain much beyond minor hardware fixes. As opposed to minimal CDs, I would see weekly builds of stage3 tarballs to be much more useful. -- Robin Hugh Johnson Gentoo Linux Developer E-Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85 pgp8FWo5U2bIF.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
Hello everybody :) I'd like to argue about this problem, since my point of view slightly differs about this problem. I think that releasing installation media more often would make sense, more than in the case of stages. I wrote a small article a few weeks ago, about the Small Gentoo LiveCD (1). In just a few days, it has become one of the most read articles of my site. People really often encounter problems with recent hardware, and I must confess that I had sometimes to bring them to alternative LiveCDs (2), because Gentoo minimal lacked such hw support. One way could be to automate LiveCD generation, as Debian or Ubuntu do with their weekly /nightly builds, but not to provide support on it. Maybe we could have two kinds of releases : experimental releases, automatically generated, and official releases ? About the stages, I think things are well as they already are. Upgrading to latest gentoo release isn't really a big problem, when you have the hardware support (emerge --sync ; emerge system -e solves this problem most of the time ?). Regards, Hubert. (1) https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-505165.html (2) http://www.sysresccd.org/ -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Andrew Gaffney wrote: Also, what's the point? Everything you use to install from the minimal is fetched from the internet. The only thing that an updated minimal would give us is a slightly more hardware support during the install. This slightly more hardware support is almost always what new boxen need. Of course people can install Gentoo from another more up to date other distro, but wouldn't it be better if that were optional and not mandatory? That if people have new hardware which is not supported by their own distro, that they can pop in the latest gentoo cd and know that if there is any distro whose install cd supports their hardware, that gentoo will too? There would also be many more chances to fix things, since these images would be relatiely short lived. Since each image would be more similar than the previous one than our current 6 months apart releases are to eachother, testing could be spread out more. And our users would get more chances to help us test. Releng might not have to take a snapshot and try to stable it a la debian. Instead all developers could work together to fix bugs in stable found by users testing the install cd. Marijn -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF5t+5p/VmCx0OL2wRAnoBAJ93c8wOmeVYVtDuLwVO5Qwly9sNogCfbPON 7Leo1TTCqecCdo3sFJ0huRY= =tcD4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
I personnally would like to see stage tarballs updated more frequently if an arch receives a major update in system, like gcc or glibc, even if this is only an r patch because these are a pain to install, and by update I mean something new goes stable. Such releases are infrequent, but make it painful when doing a new install because you know that you have to rebuild world from the start. On 3/1/07, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Andrew Gaffney wrote: Also, what's the point? Everything you use to install from the minimal is fetched from the internet. The only thing that an updated minimal would give us is a slightly more hardware support during the install. This slightly more hardware support is almost always what new boxen need. Of course people can install Gentoo from another more up to date other distro, but wouldn't it be better if that were optional and not mandatory? That if people have new hardware which is not supported by their own distro, that they can pop in the latest gentoo cd and know that if there is any distro whose install cd supports their hardware, that gentoo will too? There would also be many more chances to fix things, since these images would be relatiely short lived. Since each image would be more similar than the previous one than our current 6 months apart releases are to eachother, testing could be spread out more. And our users would get more chances to help us test. Releng might not have to take a snapshot and try to stable it a la debian. Instead all developers could work together to fix bugs in stable found by users testing the install cd. Marijn -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF5t+5p/VmCx0OL2wRAnoBAJ93c8wOmeVYVtDuLwVO5Qwly9sNogCfbPON 7Leo1TTCqecCdo3sFJ0huRY= =tcD4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
Simon Stelling wrote: That being said, I think this is really up to the releng team and noone else. They are doing the work, so we can discuss it far and wide, as long as releng doesn't want to do it, nothing will happen. So maybe we should wait for a statement from Chris before doing anything else. I can tell you right now what Chris's answer is going to be. If you're volunteering to do it, join releng and have at it. As it is now, most members of releng do not have the time and/or desire to do a release more often than bi-annually. -- Andrew Gaffneyhttp://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Installer Project -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
I just want to point out that I have gone through 4 years of gcc/glibc/binutils/baselayout/udev/etc. updates on 8 production servers with varying hardware _with the hardened profile_ and I've never had to re-emerge world once. In addition, I don't see a huge drawback to using other distro's LiveCDs. Some distros specialize in making a LiveCD do everything possible, like Knoppix. This group isn't maintaining a portage tree, they are just making their LiveCD awesome. Why not piggyback on their efforts (our users are doing it anyway)? That way we can focus our resources on making portage great, which is Gentoo's true strength. With Gentoo, once you are up and running, releases become very unimportant. What do you think? -Cory On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 09:22:34AM -0500, Caleb Cushing wrote: I personnally would like to see stage tarballs updated more frequently if an arch receives a major update in system, like gcc or glibc, even if this is only an r patch because these are a pain to install, and by update I mean something new goes stable. Such releases are infrequent, but make it painful when doing a new install because you know that you have to rebuild world from the start. On 3/1/07, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew Gaffney wrote: Also, what's the point? Everything you use to install from the minimal is fetched from the internet. The only thing that an updated minimal would give us is a slightly more hardware support during the install. This slightly more hardware support is almost always what new boxen need. Of course people can install Gentoo from another more up to date other distro, but wouldn't it be better if that were optional and not mandatory? That if people have new hardware which is not supported by their own distro, that they can pop in the latest gentoo cd and know that if there is any distro whose install cd supports their hardware, that gentoo will too? There would also be many more chances to fix things, since these images would be relatiely short lived. Since each image would be more similar than the previous one than our current 6 months apart releases are to eachother, testing could be spread out more. And our users would get more chances to help us test. Releng might not have to take a snapshot and try to stable it a la debian. Instead all developers could work together to fix bugs in stable found by users testing the install cd. Marijn -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
Cory Visi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In addition, I don't see a huge drawback to using other distro's LiveCDs. Some distros specialize in making a LiveCD do everything possible, like Knoppix. This group isn't maintaining a portage tree, they are just making their LiveCD awesome. Why not piggyback on their efforts (our users are doing it anyway)? That way we can focus our resources on making portage great, which is Gentoo's true strength. ++ on that. While LiveCDs draw new users due to spiffy things you can do with your GentooCD, i'd like the releng folks to concentrate to make a stable and well tested release (which collides with the nightly proposal). To top it off: nightmorph was quite right in pointing out, that we need to accompany these releases with documentation -- gentoo in my eyes draws greatly in this two areas: flexiblest package manager around *and* greatest docu around. We should keep it that way. -- Kind Regards, Matti Bickel Homepage: http://www.rateu.de Encrypted/Signed Email preferred pgp4PizX6ib5c.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
Simon Stelling wrote: That being said, I think this is really up to the releng team and noone else. They are doing the work, so we can discuss it far and wide, as long as releng doesn't want to do it, nothing will happen. So maybe we should wait for a statement from Chris before doing anything else. I can tell you right now what Chris's answer is going to be. If you're volunteering to do it, join releng and have at it. As it is now, most members of releng do not have the time and/or desire to do a release more often than bi-annually. Or better yet just grab the specs and a beefy machine and build the stuff yourself...that is what it's there for. Build the automation stuff, bribe solar for a blade to run it on. Run it for a month, then just tell releng Hi I can build liveCDs and stages every 3 days, look at my progress over the last month. Everyone likes to see work, not 'oh lets do this' followed by nothingness :P As always, talk is cheap. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
Robin H. Johnson wrote: As opposed to minimal CDs, I would see weekly builds of stage3 tarballs to be much more useful. ++ on that. Rebuilding _everything_ because openssl changed ABI since the last stage3 install could save users a lot of time/trouble. (that was just an example) Weekly, bi-weekly or even monthly stages feel enough for me :) Those could be released as experimental stages. Rémi -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
Rémi Cardona wrote: Robin H. Johnson wrote: As opposed to minimal CDs, I would see weekly builds of stage3 tarballs to be much more useful. ++ on that. Rebuilding _everything_ because openssl changed ABI since the last stage3 install could save users a lot of time/trouble. (that was just an example) Weekly, bi-weekly or even monthly stages feel enough for me :) Those could be released as experimental stages. ...which people will still bitch and moan about when broken. People seem to have an unreasonably expectation for everything we release, even if it's experimental, to work perfectly. -- Andrew Gaffneyhttp://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Installer Project -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] more up to date minimal install cd
Cory Visi wrote: In addition, I don't see a huge drawback to using other distro's LiveCDs. I tried to install a system with a marvell pata drive, no livecd I know of managed to run because they couldn't find the cdrom. the system was to be installed using debian and had windows installed, the debian.exe got really handy (btw what about having one for gentoo or a generic one?) Some distros specialize in making a LiveCD do everything possible, like Knoppix. This group isn't maintaining a portage tree, they are just making their LiveCD awesome. Why not piggyback on their efforts (our users are doing it anyway)? That way we can focus our resources on making portage great, which is Gentoo's true strength. well gentoo livecd usually run on many more systems, our infrastructure let us have fresher stuff than others. a 2007.0 snapshot would have worked out of box. With Gentoo, once you are up and running, releases become very unimportant. What do you think? that first you have to be up and running... so release early often minimal livecd please =P lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
