Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On 14/02/13 09:26, Michael Weber wrote: non-multilib/x86 installs to /lib, multilib is linked to /lib. So please, stop using dramatizing this and use it as alibi for your otherwise justified plans. There is no guarantee multilib is linked to /lib whatsoever. Where did you get that idea?
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
Christopher Head schrieb: Most external firmware is not needed to boot. If you need it to boot, you will have to stow it in the initramfs. For those of us who prefer monolithic kernels, virtually all firmware is needed to boot. Even if a network interface doesn't need to be operational for boot, the kernel insists that the firmware be available right at boot or else it will fail and the interface will never appear. That is not fully correct. It is true that certain drivers or certain configurations (e.g. CONFIG_IP_PNP) may require firmware to be present during early boot. But unlike the Intel wifi driver which used to stop working and detach from the device when firmware loading failed, most other drivers will reattempt to load firmware every time on bringing up the interface. Best regards, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
Sergei Trofimovich schrieb: The source of confusion was non-working device by default. Maybe 'IUSE=+firmware; RDEPEND=firmware? ( sys-kernel/linux-firmware )' for virtual/linux-sources would help user experience a bit. +1 https://bugs.gentoo.org/457082 Instead of USE defaults, this could be turned on in the desktop profile as wifi, radeon cards etc. are less likely to be present on non-desktop systems. Best regards, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On 13/02/2013 14:38, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote: https://bugs.gentoo.org/457082 Instead of USE defaults, this could be turned on in the desktop profile as wifi, radeon cards etc. are less likely to be present on non-desktop systems. IIRC some server systems need ethernet cards' firmware though, so IUSE defaults sounds better... -- Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes flamee...@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
Diego Elio Pettenò schrieb: On 13/02/2013 14:38, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote: https://bugs.gentoo.org/457082 Instead of USE defaults, this could be turned on in the desktop profile as wifi, radeon cards etc. are less likely to be present on non-desktop systems. IIRC some server systems need ethernet cards' firmware though, so IUSE defaults sounds better... Indeed. Firmware is also needed for some RAID controllers. I imagine that users of the default profile are more likely to not need hand-holding here and more likely to want a lean system by default. But I have no strong opinion either way. Best regards, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On 13/02/2013 15:50, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote: Indeed. Firmware is also needed for some RAID controllers. I imagine that users of the default profile are more likely to not need hand-holding here and more likely to want a lean system by default. But I have no strong opinion either way. My point is mostly why make it different if there is no need to make it different?. People who don't need the firmware can deal with disabling it themselves. -- Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes flamee...@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
Diego Elio Pettenò wrote: People who don't need the firmware can deal with disabling it themselves. I don't like the binary distribution argument of include everything to cover as many possible use cases as possible in one go. I very much like the high resolution of Gentoo packages. I'd hate to enter a slippery slope toward lower resolution. //Peter
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On 13/02/2013 18:33, Peter Stuge wrote: I don't like the binary distribution argument of include everything to cover as many possible use cases as possible in one go. I very much like the high resolution of Gentoo packages. I'd hate to enter a slippery slope toward lower resolution. Are you really that _lazy_ to not accept the option to just do cat - /etc/portage/package.use EOF sys-kernel/gentoo-sources -firmware EOF and be done with it? Chr(ome) on a bike, you're getting on my nerves (and I'd bet not just mine). -- Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes flamee...@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
Diego Elio Pettenò wrote: I don't like the binary distribution argument of include everything to cover as many possible use cases as possible in one go. I very much like the high resolution of Gentoo packages. I'd hate to enter a slippery slope toward lower resolution. Are you really that _lazy_ to not accept the option to just do cat - /etc/portage/package.use EOF sys-kernel/gentoo-sources -firmware EOF and be done with it? Kernel -sources USE is a handy way to install linux-firmware wholesale, but AIUI the standalone firmware packages would be removed too, effectively making the USE flag non-optional, and removing the possibility of having managed firmware packages. (People would have to download single firmware files on their own.) I think the objection is against a solution that will replace what is there at the moment and cause more firmware files to always be installed, if only some specific ones are actually needed. Also: Is this only for gentoo-sources? What about the other -sources? //Peter
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
Peter Stuge schrieb: Kernel -sources USE is a handy way to install linux-firmware wholesale, but AIUI the standalone firmware packages would be removed too, effectively making the USE flag non-optional, and removing the possibility of having managed firmware packages. (People would have to download single firmware files on their own.) I see that there exists some preference for individual firmware packages for certain users or use cases. This is why the mask message told you to report a bug if a particular firmware package is important to you. I think the objection is against a solution that will replace what is there at the moment and cause more firmware files to always be installed, if only some specific ones are actually needed. USE=savedconfig can prevent installation of undesired firmware files. I admit that this is not very user friendly though. And some of the flexibility in mixing linux-firmware[savedconfig] and individual packages has been destroyed by adding blocker against linux-firmware in the individual packages (bug 456746 comment 4) Also: Is this only for gentoo-sources? What about the other -sources? The suggestion is to have it for virtual/linux-sources. Best regards, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
Peter Stuge pe...@stuge.se writes: Kernel -sources USE is a handy way to install linux-firmware wholesale, but AIUI the standalone firmware packages would be removed too, effectively making the USE flag non-optional, and removing the possibility of having managed firmware packages. (People would have to download single firmware files on their own.) What would perhaps be nice would be to patch 'make firmware_install' to have it call a utility which scans .config and fetches and installs any firmware required for a configured device.
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
U folks are aware of the fact that installed sources is rather vaguely coupled with running kernel, right? No, I'm not running archkernel on gentoo, but it would be possible. It's also fine to poke around in linus' sources and cross compile w/o ever running the damn thing or needing firmware from /lib/firmware. Anyway, please do not force-reinstall of about 400k kernel source files to just fix any USE flag constellation. I'm not saying --newuse, just people forgetting to set the flag. Last thought, we have maintainer-needed in bugzilla to handle unmaintained packages (and I'm looking at these from time to time, maybe I should start a maintainer-needed herd). /$(get_libdir) vs /lib is the wrong method without effect, non-multilib/x86 installs to /lib, multilib is linked to /lib. So please, stop using dramatizing this and use it as alibi for your otherwise justified plans. -- Michael Weber Gentoo Developer web: https://xmw.de/ mailto: Michael Weber x...@gentoo.org
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 20:43:02 +0100 Dirkjan Ochtman d...@gentoo.org wrote: On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 5:54 PM, Fabio Erculiani lx...@gentoo.org wrote: +1 from me; I've had a few machines break on kernel upgrades because I didn't have the proper firmware installed (I guess older kernel sources came with the firmware?). This is another problem, namely dependency level problem. I don't see how having kernel sources ebuilds providing /lib/firmware would fix any of the listed issues without causing other side effects. For starters, if kernel sources provide /lib/firmware, how do you deal with file collisions? Sorry this is not threaded properly; I accidentally deleted the e-mail I intended to reply to. Please don't make kernel sources RDEPEND on firmware. The kernel DOES NOT depend on firmware to work properly. Well over half my machines prove that: they work perfectly fine (read: 100% of their hardware works) with no firmware at all installed. Don't force me to install a package that provides me with a grand total of zero benefit, just so you can hand-hold people. It's unfortunate that people were caught by the firmware being removed from the kernel and breaking their hardware. This sounds like an application for a news message telling people to install firmware if needed, but IMO it doesn't call for a dependency. Chris
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 14:49:03 -0800 Alec Warner anta...@gentoo.org wrote: Most external firmware is not needed to boot. If you need it to boot, you will have to stow it in the initramfs. For those of us who prefer monolithic kernels, virtually all firmware is needed to boot. Even if a network interface doesn't need to be operational for boot, the kernel insists that the firmware be available right at boot or else it will fail and the interface will never appear. Chris
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
I am starting to believe that this is yet another good reason for having official ebuilds building binaries off gentoo-sources through genkernel. Pretty much the same I do in Sabayon since 2007. -- Fabio Erculiani
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
El mar, 12-02-2013 a las 19:43 +, Fabio Erculiani escribió: I am starting to believe that this is yet another good reason for having official ebuilds building binaries off gentoo-sources through genkernel. Pretty much the same I do in Sabayon since 2007. I think shouldn't have any problems on providing them also as an alternative, the problem is who would maintain that builds (as I guess Sabayon is using different sources than gentoo and, then, probably not all chosen options for Sabayon will work on Gentoo :/) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 7:47 PM, Pacho Ramos pa...@gentoo.org wrote: El mar, 12-02-2013 a las 19:43 +, Fabio Erculiani escribió: I am starting to believe that this is yet another good reason for having official ebuilds building binaries off gentoo-sources through genkernel. Pretty much the same I do in Sabayon since 2007. I think shouldn't have any problems on providing them also as an alternative, the problem is who would maintain that builds (as I guess Sabayon is using different sources than gentoo and, then, probably not all chosen options for Sabayon will work on Gentoo :/) If the goal is providing a general purpose kernel that's based on genpatches (plus BFQ and aufs3) and could be used in official live images, the current sabayon kernels could work just fine for Gentoo. They are coming directly from Linus' (or gregkh for stable releases) git repo. Upstreaming sabayon-kernel.eclass and kernel binary ebuilds is something I'd be interested in, as long as other devs here are willing to help me out as well. But I don't want to go off-topic too much. -- Fabio Erculiani
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
El dom, 10-02-2013 a las 17:46 +0300, Sergei Trofimovich escribió: [...] The source of confusion was non-working device by default. Maybe 'IUSE=+firmware; RDEPEND=firmware? ( sys-kernel/linux-firmware )' for virtual/linux-sources would help user experience a bit. Sometimes firmware loader does not even write fw file it expects to be present on FS in dmesg (like certain broadcom drivers) thus it's nontrivial for user to figure out needed package to be installed. Thanks! I agree as I have also needed to google and search in forums to get proper firmware installed in the past in some machines :/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Pacho Ramos pa...@gentoo.org wrote:
I agree as I have also needed to google and search in forums to get
proper firmware installed in the past in some machines :/
for fw in $(strings -a -n 10 $(find /lib/modules -name '*.ko') | sed
-n 's/^firmware=//p' | sort -u); do
if [ ! -e /lib/firmware/${fw} ]; then
echo ${fw}
fi
done
I guess you can do something similar with vmlinux.bin if compiling
modules into kernel. Looking into kernel sources is more robust, but
gets annoying fast. Full script I am using is here:
https://github.com/mkdesu/liberte/blob/master/src/root/helpers/lst-firmwares
You can encounter superfluous warnings with modules that support
multiple firmware subversions (e.g., iwlwifi).
--
Maxim Kammerer
Liberté Linux: http://dee.su/liberte
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Pacho Ramos pa...@gentoo.org wrote: I agree as I have also needed to google and search in forums to get proper firmware installed in the past in some machines :/ +1 from me; I've had a few machines break on kernel upgrades because I didn't have the proper firmware installed (I guess older kernel sources came with the firmware?). Cheers, Dirkjan
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 6:49 PM, Dirkjan Ochtman d...@gentoo.org wrote: (I guess older kernel sources came with the firmware?) See e.g. https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42689#c5 -- Maxim Kammerer Liberté Linux: http://dee.su/liberte
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Dirkjan Ochtman d...@gentoo.org wrote: On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Pacho Ramos pa...@gentoo.org wrote: I agree as I have also needed to google and search in forums to get proper firmware installed in the past in some machines :/ +1 from me; I've had a few machines break on kernel upgrades because I didn't have the proper firmware installed (I guess older kernel sources came with the firmware?). This is another problem, namely dependency level problem. I don't see how having kernel sources ebuilds providing /lib/firmware would fix any of the listed issues without causing other side effects. For starters, if kernel sources provide /lib/firmware, how do you deal with file collisions? Cheers, Dirkjan -- Fabio Erculiani
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 5:54 PM, Fabio Erculiani lx...@gentoo.org wrote: +1 from me; I've had a few machines break on kernel upgrades because I didn't have the proper firmware installed (I guess older kernel sources came with the firmware?). This is another problem, namely dependency level problem. I don't see how having kernel sources ebuilds providing /lib/firmware would fix any of the listed issues without causing other side effects. For starters, if kernel sources provide /lib/firmware, how do you deal with file collisions? I'm sorry, I have no clue about any of this; I was just signalling that I've run into problems twice now, where I: - had an old kernel working fine - upgraded it using the usual mechanism - then the network wouldn't come up on rebooting (bnx2 or tg3, not sure) - with an obscure error message that was really quite hard to connect to missing firmware, and - it turned out to work fine after installing linux-firmware. So it would be great to prevent other users from running into these kinds of trouble. Cheers, Dirkjan
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/10/2013 11:54 AM, Fabio Erculiani wrote: On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Dirkjan Ochtman d...@gentoo.org wrote: On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Pacho Ramos pa...@gentoo.org wrote: I agree as I have also needed to google and search in forums to get proper firmware installed in the past in some machines :/ +1 from me; I've had a few machines break on kernel upgrades because I didn't have the proper firmware installed (I guess older kernel sources came with the firmware?). This is another problem, namely dependency level problem. I don't see how having kernel sources ebuilds providing /lib/firmware would fix any of the listed issues without causing other side effects. For starters, if kernel sources provide /lib/firmware, how do you deal with file collisions? The number of collisions has been reduced drastically in the last ~year, I don't believe there are actually any left now. I think the kernel has almost entirely stopped shipping firmware. It may be time to make linux-firmware an RDEPEND of *-sources - -Zero -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJRGAahAAoJEKXdFCfdEflKz2cP/2BbuvVsYgMUHGwuD8Xs5/Iw 70Q1QyXY4SIQGh5p/YZ0XX6Z1uzGGUAwAm2tWbsFUT6VFZWyb0p/Wl5Rf3Vtn9eO 4DXx4JoKPI12bFEbJuhCMe67e01A3h88j/lp0fE372MTDUcutl3FF+i34zz/DckU NGEVw9+IxPxxuohTT+llzPE+3gd1j1LOSL+msv5nFwcKn940iOujLpDvpiscGD68 HBb5lcyxuKcV5XBlG3oRZ8+rP1A0vW2qyMm4/IXHMEehro1N3JxMpYQq+NcUrGT8 tlAHYW4C6+Z7b8zr9kEUbuDVI1dx+AM/MXbd8bdfpSWjnrk9NCnV5Y9mTBaNJB61 kn+CEQIaGi3aNBOzVBfo02ZGONZh7c178uIa7+Lh0deyENdlptU/UdD8wNf1PCK4 MCxsLzuJ6zb0XzaxJaY5snoZ+r8pHPrMUZFv8F0ls3y4maiGQMc48MOy4mJ90hYd 52HF3tjM2H0q7KNasKgP/u4DKylRiAWEvCS7uLF/6mUA74Ph9OVac+BJeUQSVsKh 4606UogOgk03IlBmNiyj41t3auX/MfqGYa3kBdftmFHURMOx1GPL5wqibRdzQ1T6 G8ojPdKxARHowkC9oAYljO6kUoQFD/mBN53KhvoCcu83n1rfvJ2hNBlkais8jEw6 PT7FeADuNUixau15F5jm =rqzh -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On Sun, 10 February 2013 Maxim Kammerer m...@dee.su wrote:
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Pacho Ramos pa...@gentoo.org wrote:
I agree as I have also needed to google and search in forums to get
proper firmware installed in the past in some machines :/
for fw in $(strings -a -n 10 $(find /lib/modules -name '*.ko') | sed
-n 's/^firmware=//p' | sort -u); do
if [ ! -e /lib/firmware/${fw} ]; then
echo ${fw}
fi
done
I guess you can do something similar with vmlinux.bin if compiling
modules into kernel.
Last I looked into that the list of firmwares needed by built-in drivers
is not available as is the case for modules (and in addition those
built-in drivers may need the firmware long before /lib/firmware/ is
available)
Bruno
Looking into kernel sources is more robust, but
gets annoying fast. Full script I am using is here:
https://github.com/mkdesu/liberte/blob/master/src/root/helpers/lst-firmwares
You can encounter superfluous warnings with modules that support
multiple firmware subversions (e.g., iwlwifi).
Re: RFC: install linux-firmware with kernel sources (was Re: [gentoo-dev] Lastrite: Firmware cleanup, part #1)
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Bruno bonbon...@internet.lu wrote:
On Sun, 10 February 2013 Maxim Kammerer m...@dee.su wrote:
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Pacho Ramos pa...@gentoo.org wrote:
I agree as I have also needed to google and search in forums to get
proper firmware installed in the past in some machines :/
for fw in $(strings -a -n 10 $(find /lib/modules -name '*.ko') | sed
-n 's/^firmware=//p' | sort -u); do
if [ ! -e /lib/firmware/${fw} ]; then
echo ${fw}
fi
done
I guess you can do something similar with vmlinux.bin if compiling
modules into kernel.
Last I looked into that the list of firmwares needed by built-in drivers
is not available as is the case for modules (and in addition those
built-in drivers may need the firmware long before /lib/firmware/ is
available)
Most external firmware is not needed to boot. If you need it to boot,
you will have to stow it in the initramfs.
-A
Bruno
Looking into kernel sources is more robust, but
gets annoying fast. Full script I am using is here:
https://github.com/mkdesu/liberte/blob/master/src/root/helpers/lst-firmwares
You can encounter superfluous warnings with modules that support
multiple firmware subversions (e.g., iwlwifi).
