Re: [gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 05:55:10 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: I have a server running that hets that null/console missing message every boot - and it does not hurt it at any way. A missing /dev/console stops the boot process here. It boots without /dev/null, but only after udev spews out a load of messages. -- Neil Bothwick Procrastinate now! signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
On 2009-01-24, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 05:55:10 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: I have a server running that hets that null/console missing message every boot - and it does not hurt it at any way. A missing /dev/console stops the boot process here. It boots without /dev/null, but only after udev spews out a load of messages. Ah, not to worry: I've been assured in the gentoo forum thread that the problems we see when the root filesystem doesn't have proper /dev/null and /dev/console nodes aren't really happening: Neither /dev/null nor /dev/console are needed at boot-time, therefore their absence doesn't cause problems. [You must admit the argument is flawless -- though I still question the premise.] In order to get rid of my problems that weren't happening, I initially tried the mount -bind and cp -a commands that show up in /etc/issue when your /dev directory is hosed. That didn't help: after setting /etc/issue back to the default file and rebooting all the same problems still weren't happening (and /etc/issue was again modified to tell me to do mount -bind and cp -a to fix them). Then I tried booting with root in rw mode and init=/bin/bash and then doing a MAKEDEV generic-i386. (I found that recipe in an old mailing list somewhere.) MAKEDEV complained a lot about not being able to read /proc/devices. When I rebooted, I still had the all same problems not happening as before. I finally booted from a minimal install CD, mounted my root partition, removed its /dev directory completely and then re-created it by untaring ./dev from a good stage3 tarball. Now the system boots up smoothly. I feel like a bit of a fool expending so much effort getting rid of problems that weren't happening -- but, now the problems that weren't happening are gone, so I'm happy. ;) -- Grant
[gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
On 2009-01-25, Grant Edwards gra...@visi.com wrote: On 2009-01-24, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 05:55:10 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: I have a server running that hets that null/console missing message every boot - and it does not hurt it at any way. A missing /dev/console stops the boot process here. It boots without /dev/null, but only after udev spews out a load of messages. Ah, not to worry: I've been assured in the gentoo forum thread that the problems we see when the root filesystem doesn't have proper /dev/null and /dev/console nodes aren't really happening: Neither /dev/null nor /dev/console are needed at boot-time, therefore their absence doesn't cause problems. For posterity's sake, one of the problems that wasn't happening was that my root partition always had to be recovered at startup -- it apparently wasn't getting properly unmounted during shutdown. After re-creating the root partition's /dev tree, that was cured. This leads one to suspect that the block device node for the root partition (/dev/hda3 in my case) is also required along with /dev/null and /dev/console for proper start-up and shut-down. -- Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
Grant Edwards wrote: On 2009-01-25, Grant Edwards gra...@visi.com wrote: On 2009-01-24, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 05:55:10 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: I have a server running that hets that null/console missing message every boot - and it does not hurt it at any way. A missing /dev/console stops the boot process here. It boots without /dev/null, but only after udev spews out a load of messages. Ah, not to worry: I've been assured in the gentoo forum thread that the problems we see when the root filesystem doesn't have proper /dev/null and /dev/console nodes aren't really happening: Neither /dev/null nor /dev/console are needed at boot-time, therefore their absence doesn't cause problems. For posterity's sake, one of the problems that wasn't happening was that my root partition always had to be recovered at startup -- it apparently wasn't getting properly unmounted during shutdown. After re-creating the root partition's /dev tree, that was cured. This leads one to suspect that the block device node for the root partition (/dev/hda3 in my case) is also required along with /dev/null and /dev/console for proper start-up and shut-down. Well just to confirm that this is not happening, I ran into the same thing a good while back when I was transferring my system from one disk to another. I didn't copy /dev, /sys, /proc and something else. I had to reboot from the CD and copy all the /dev/stuff so I could boot. At the time I didn't know what I didn't have to have. Note there is a bit of sarcasm there. It appears that they are needed but some just think we don't. My rig, Abit NF7 mobo with a AMD 2500+ rig using udev like I guess everybody else is. Weird. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
Am Freitag, 23. Januar 2009 15:48:48 schrieb Grant Edwards: On 2009-01-23, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: On Freitag 23 Januar 2009, Grant Edwards wrote: You are still able to see the output from all the init scripts? yes That's interesting, because on my systems, if /dev/console is missing, then there is no non-kernel console output until most of the way through the startup-process when udev starts. That reminds me of one thing: Are you still running baselayout 1? On a baselayout 2/openrc box udev is started at the very beginning of the userland boot process. Maybe that's the difference between Volker's and your system. Bye... Dirk signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
On 2009-01-23, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: On Freitag 23 Januar 2009, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2009-01-23, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: If the tarball doesn't contain /dev/console it is broken, but it is also broken if it contains thousands of device entries. I have a server running that hets that null/console missing message every boot - and it does not hurt it at any way. You are still able to see the output from all the init scripts? yes That's interesting, because on my systems, if /dev/console is missing, then there is no non-kernel console output until most of the way through the startup-process when udev starts. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Well, I'm INVISIBLE at AGAIN ... I might as well visi.compay a visit to the LADIES ROOM ...
[gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
On 2009-01-21, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:50:17 +, Nick Cunningham wrote: But, that doesn't really solve the problem, since after a reboot the /dev directory will be empty again and you end up with problems such as no console during startup. IIRC thats because /dev should be populated on startup by udev so i would check that udev is installed and working properly, if you use openrc then this could be the cause as openrc now starts udev through normal scripts i think, sometimes on upgrade from baselayout 1 they may not be automatically added to the right runlevels. You still need /dev/console in the dev directory of the root partition, along with /dev/null. Try telling that to somebody in the Gentoo forum hiding behind the screen name desultory. Sheesh. I reported the issue to the forum thread as requested by the article on www.gentoo.org, and I got a very hostile reaction. Bascially I got a snide, insulting response, a complete denial that there was a problem with the tarball in question, and a denial that either /dev/console or /dev/null is needed at boot time. That's the last time I waste my time with that forum. I should have known. Web forums all suck. Web forum UIs are all completely abominable, and they seem to be inhabited almost exclusively by surly, unjustifiably arrogant junior-high kids hiding behind stupid screen names and even worse avatars. Anything else is a waste of disk space and inodes as the static /dev/devices are hidden as soon as udev starts. Yup. If the tarball doesn't contain /dev/console it is broken, but it is also broken if it contains thousands of device entries. -- Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
On Freitag 23 Januar 2009, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2009-01-21, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:50:17 +, Nick Cunningham wrote: But, that doesn't really solve the problem, since after a reboot the /dev directory will be empty again and you end up with problems such as no console during startup. IIRC thats because /dev should be populated on startup by udev so i would check that udev is installed and working properly, if you use openrc then this could be the cause as openrc now starts udev through normal scripts i think, sometimes on upgrade from baselayout 1 they may not be automatically added to the right runlevels. You still need /dev/console in the dev directory of the root partition, along with /dev/null. Try telling that to somebody in the Gentoo forum hiding behind the screen name desultory. Sheesh. I reported the issue to the forum thread as requested by the article on www.gentoo.org, and I got a very hostile reaction. Bascially I got a snide, insulting response, a complete denial that there was a problem with the tarball in question, and a denial that either /dev/console or /dev/null is needed at boot time. That's the last time I waste my time with that forum. I should have known. Web forums all suck. Web forum UIs are all completely abominable, and they seem to be inhabited almost exclusively by surly, unjustifiably arrogant junior-high kids hiding behind stupid screen names and even worse avatars. Anything else is a waste of disk space and inodes as the static /dev/devices are hidden as soon as udev starts. Yup. If the tarball doesn't contain /dev/console it is broken, but it is also broken if it contains thousands of device entries. I have a server running that hets that null/console missing message every boot - and it does not hurt it at any way.
[gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
On 2009-01-23, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: If the tarball doesn't contain /dev/console it is broken, but it is also broken if it contains thousands of device entries. I have a server running that hets that null/console missing message every boot - and it does not hurt it at any way. You are still able to see the output from all the init scripts? -- Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
On Freitag 23 Januar 2009, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2009-01-23, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: If the tarball doesn't contain /dev/console it is broken, but it is also broken if it contains thousands of device entries. I have a server running that hets that null/console missing message every boot - and it does not hurt it at any way. You are still able to see the output from all the init scripts? yes
[gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
On 2009-01-21, Dirk Heinrichs dirk.heinrichs@nsn.com wrote: Am Mittwoch, den 21.01.2009, 04:04 + schrieb ext Grant Edwards: I'm a little confused. Is there supposed to be an additional installation step to populate the /dev directory when using recent stage3 snapshots? One usually bind-mounts /dev, /proc and /sys into the chroot, like mount --bind /dev /newinstall/dev # dito for /proc, /sys chroot /newinstall If this isn't documented, you should file a bug. That's docuemented in the normal install doc, but not in the quick install doc. But, that doesn't really solve the problem, since after a reboot the /dev directory will be empty again and you end up with problems such as no console during startup. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! RELATIVES!! at visi.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
2009/1/21 Grant Edwards gra...@visi.com On 2009-01-21, Dirk Heinrichs dirk.heinrichs@nsn.com wrote: Am Mittwoch, den 21.01.2009, 04:04 + schrieb ext Grant Edwards: I'm a little confused. Is there supposed to be an additional installation step to populate the /dev directory when using recent stage3 snapshots? One usually bind-mounts /dev, /proc and /sys into the chroot, like mount --bind /dev /newinstall/dev # dito for /proc, /sys chroot /newinstall If this isn't documented, you should file a bug. That's docuemented in the normal install doc, but not in the quick install doc. But, that doesn't really solve the problem, since after a reboot the /dev directory will be empty again and you end up with problems such as no console during startup. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! RELATIVES!! at visi.com IIRC thats because /dev should be populated on startup by udev so i would check that udev is installed and working properly, if you use openrc then this could be the cause as openrc now starts udev through normal scripts i think, sometimes on upgrade from baselayout 1 they may not be automatically added to the right runlevels. - Nick
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:50:17 +, Nick Cunningham wrote: But, that doesn't really solve the problem, since after a reboot the /dev directory will be empty again and you end up with problems such as no console during startup. IIRC thats because /dev should be populated on startup by udev so i would check that udev is installed and working properly, if you use openrc then this could be the cause as openrc now starts udev through normal scripts i think, sometimes on upgrade from baselayout 1 they may not be automatically added to the right runlevels. You still need /dev/console in the dev directory of the root partition, along with /dev/null. Anything else is a waste of disk space and inodes as the static /dev/devices are hidden as soon as udev starts. If the tarball doesn't contain /dev/console it is broken, but it is also broken if it contains thousands of device entries. -- Neil Bothwick Do not merely believe in miracles; rely on them. * Finagle signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
On 2009-01-21, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:50:17 +, Nick Cunningham wrote: But, that doesn't really solve the problem, since after a reboot the /dev directory will be empty again and you end up with problems such as no console during startup. IIRC thats because /dev should be populated on startup by udev so i would check that udev is installed and working properly, if you use openrc then this could be the cause as openrc now starts udev through normal scripts i think, sometimes on upgrade from baselayout 1 they may not be automatically added to the right runlevels. You still need /dev/console in the dev directory of the root partition, along with /dev/null. Anything else is a waste of disk space and inodes as the static /dev/devices are hidden as soon as udev starts. If the tarball doesn't contain /dev/console it is broken, but it is also broken if it contains thousands of device entries. Then all the stage3 tarballs I've ever seen are broken. They either contain 5000+ entries, or nothing but these: drwxr-xr-x root/root 0 2009-01-13 21:20 ./dev/ -rw-r--r-- root/root 0 2009-01-13 21:20 ./dev/null lrwxrwxrwx root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/MAKEDEV - ../sbin/MAKEDEV -rw-r--r-- root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/.keep drwxr-xr-x root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/shm/ -rw-r--r-- root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/shm/.keep drwxr-xr-x root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/pts/ -rw-r--r-- root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/pts/.keep What I do know is that using a stage3 with 5000+ entries allows you to install using either the normal or quick install instructions. Using one with just the above /dev entries causes problems either way -- more so if using the quick install instructions since there is no step where you mount udev to /mnt/gentoo/dev. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! I'm sitting on my at SPEED QUEEN ... To me, visi.comit's ENJOYABLE ... I'm WARM ... I'm VIBRATORY ...
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
Am Mittwoch, 21. Januar 2009 17:48:27 schrieb Grant Edwards: Then all the stage3 tarballs I've ever seen are broken. They either contain 5000+ entries, or nothing but these: Yes they are. Having 5000+ entries in there while udev is in used is just stupid. I'm glad they've fixed that know. drwxr-xr-x root/root 0 2009-01-13 21:20 ./dev/ -rw-r--r-- root/root 0 2009-01-13 21:20 ./dev/null lrwxrwxrwx root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/MAKEDEV - ../sbin/MAKEDEV -rw-r--r-- root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/.keep drwxr-xr-x root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/shm/ -rw-r--r-- root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/shm/.keep drwxr-xr-x root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/pts/ -rw-r--r-- root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/pts/.keep Yes, that's broken as well. All you need, as Neil wrote, is null and console. What I do know is that using a stage3 with 5000+ entries allows you to install using either the normal or quick install instructions. And forcing you to remove them later, since they just waste inodes (on an inode based fs, of course). Using one with just the above /dev entries causes problems either way -- more so if using the quick install instructions since there is no step where you mount udev to /mnt/gentoo/dev. So you need to file two bug reports ;-) Bye... Dirk signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
On 2009-01-21, Dirk Heinrichs dirk.heinri...@online.de wrote: Am Mittwoch, 21. Januar 2009 17:48:27 schrieb Grant Edwards: Then all the stage3 tarballs I've ever seen are broken. They either contain 5000+ entries, or nothing but these: Yes they are. Having 5000+ entries in there while udev is in used is just stupid. I'm glad they've fixed that know. drwxr-xr-x root/root 0 2009-01-13 21:20 ./dev/ -rw-r--r-- root/root 0 2009-01-13 21:20 ./dev/null lrwxrwxrwx root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/MAKEDEV - ../sbin/MAKEDEV -rw-r--r-- root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/.keep drwxr-xr-x root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/shm/ -rw-r--r-- root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/shm/.keep drwxr-xr-x root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/pts/ -rw-r--r-- root/root 0 2009-01-13 19:29 ./dev/pts/.keep Yes, that's broken as well. All you need, as Neil wrote, is null and console. What I do know is that using a stage3 with 5000+ entries allows you to install using either the normal or quick install instructions. And forcing you to remove them later, since they just waste inodes (on an inode based fs, of course). Using one with just the above /dev entries causes problems either way -- more so if using the quick install instructions since there is no step where you mount udev to /mnt/gentoo/dev. So you need to file two bug reports ;-) Yup, I'll put them on my list of things to do: 1) bug report for quick-install 2) bug report for 2008.0 stage3 (too many useless /dev entries) 3) bug report for weekly autobuild stage3 (missing /dev/console) -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! I'm ZIPPY the PINHEAD at and I'm totally committed visi.comto the festive mode.
[gentoo-user] Re: No /dev entries in recent stage3 snapshots?
On 2009-01-21, Grant Edwards gra...@visi.com wrote: I noticed the same thing in the install I did a few days ago. Later in that install grub failed to install and after rebooting, my /dev directory was missing just about everything. Here's the /dev directory in the chroot'ed environment I got using stage3-i686-20090114.tar.bz2: livecd linux # ls -l /dev total 12 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 15 Jan 20 21:30 MAKEDEV - ../sbin/MAKEDEV -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 75 Jan 20 21:49 null drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Jan 13 19:29 pts drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Jan 13 19:29 shm It looks like stage3-i686-20090114.tar.bz2 is broken. The stage3 tar files for the previous two weeks are missing (the DIGEST and CONTENTS files are on the mirrors, but no tar.bz2). stage3-i686-20081224.tar.bz2 seems to have the proper /dev entries. I'm a little confused. Is there supposed to be an additional installation step to populate the /dev directory when using recent stage3 snapshots? I guess the additional step is to not use a broken stage3 tarball. -- Grant
