Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
On Saturday 10 November 2007 01:42:04 am Daniel Barkalow wrote: > On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, James wrote: > > If you do not like my opinion, you should look at what Daniel Robbins > > had to say, as I ran across a posting of his today, about this very > > issue. An awesome collection of techies does not gravitate users > > to join the ranks of distro users. A (easy) graphical installation > > method is a requirement. Gentoo get's tons of bad reviews, > > based on the installation process. > > Personally, I think a graphical installer for Gentoo is a bad idea (yes, > including the current one). What I want to see is: > > 1) Boot off of live CD > 2) ROOT=/mnt/sda1 emerge system > 3) ROOT=/mnt/sda1 emerge > 4) Reboot without CD > snip One of the strong points of Gentoo is also one of it weaknesses... you can do "a thing" in so many, many different ways. A lot of us like/love that complexity. Some of us don't and a lot of new Gentoo users absolutely hate it... Early on, in my love affair with Gentoo, I took the install manual and wrote a bash script that does all the steps needed to get to a bootable skeleton on the target harddrive. It was my way to beat sitting at the console, reading the manual and typing in what I read. I did have a lot of previous Linux experience with Open Caldera Linux. I agree with you, you don't really need a GUI for that... but it does "sell the product" to new users. Wether we like it or not, we need new blood (new users) to keep the Gentoo momentum going. And that new blood is mostly coming from the windows ranks... you know... point, point, clickey clickey... There is a bit of a migration going on now, from windows to "something else". We should be trying to be a part of that "something else". After all, RedHat, PCLinuxOS, etc... maybe not be the answer for some of these new users. That said, we really do need a KILLER GUI install tool for those that need it and the rest of us can use a CLI... You know, it should be possible to write a bash script to facilitate a complete Gentoo install session and that install script could then be used as the "guts" of a slick GUI interface for those that need it. -- From the Desk of: Jerome D. McBride -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, James wrote: > If you do not like my opinion, you should look at what Daniel Robbins > had to say, as I ran across a posting of his today, about this very > issue. An awesome collection of techies does not gravitate users > to join the ranks of distro users. A (easy) graphical installation > method is a requirement. Gentoo get's tons of bad reviews, > based on the installation process. Personally, I think a graphical installer for Gentoo is a bad idea (yes, including the current one). What I want to see is: 1) Boot off of live CD 2) ROOT=/mnt/sda1 emerge system 3) ROOT=/mnt/sda1 emerge 4) Reboot without CD Installers are never any good. What you really want is the ability to update your system to correct the fact that it isn't actually there at all. Gentoo doesn't need a graphical installer. Gentoo needs an install process which is as close as possible to maintaining a Gentoo system after installation, because that would be a good introduction to Gentoo. Of course, the initial emerge system would exit the first few times with instructions to configure stuff and try again, in the "fetch restriction" sort of way, but for partition layout and such, which it needs to have configured before it can partition, format, and mount your future root partition to install stuff on. -Daniel *This .sig left intentionally blank* -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] re: about the 2007.1
On Friday 09 November 2007, Dale wrote: > Neil Bothwick wrote: > > On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 07:21:36 -0500, David Relson wrote: > >> Some efforts were also made with the command line installer. My > >> problem there was typing and overlooking details. If I mistyped > >> something (or forgot to enter needed info) and went on to the next > >> screen, there was no way to go back and correct the mistake/oversight. > > > > There is no command line "installer" just a series of commands to be run > > in a shell. If you miss one, go and do it. Bash doesn't need a back > > button. > > > >> I've not yet updated to the AMD64 version of Gentoo because of the > >> painful memories of the initial installation. > > > > You probably learned a lot from that pain, try it again and you'll > > probably find it much easier. > > And when you are typing in a command, the tab key can be your best > friend. I have found that the tab key can cut a lot of typing and typos > out of the process. I guess the "go-back" button would be the up arrow which should show you the previous bash command in history. Anyway, my 2c's on this topic: I have used graphic installers. Two days ago I installed SUSE and three days ago I installed Ubuntu for two different users with different needs and preferences. Of course I have been through the Gentoo install handbook a few times. The first two or three installs I had to bootstrap from Stage 1 - ooohhh, I'll get all nostalgic now. :) As it happens I have not installed Gentoo from the ground up for some time now, a stage 4 and a remerge with suitable flags for the new box is all I needed to do the last few times. If the need arises (e.g. a hardened production server) I may wipe the slate clean and perhaps even try the new installer; but thoughts already expressed regarding available memory and speed of installation will probably dominate in my choice of installation method. Either way, by virtue of the fact that I have not yet tried the GUI installer I am not qualified to say much, just an opinion (and a few hypotheses): I can see both sides of the argument and I think that a super slick installer, which does not error out in 9 out of 10 install candidates, *will* attract new users. I also think that when a Gentoo-ified DE/portage pops up a message informing the new user of a number of packages that are ready to be updated (like e.g. MS Windows and Ubuntu do) the new user will probably be comfortable to press a button and launch an emerge process. What I can't see happening - other than bitching in every forum and M/L about borked systems - is the new user readily picking up the pieces when something goes wrong. An underlying basic understanding of portage and Gentoo mechanics is I suggest necessary, for our hypothetical new user. The chosen few will have the will/inclination (and time) to learn, others (the majority) will not. The net effect without some pilot study is difficult to assess, but my guess is that overall it will be negative. The few new users we might gain will be at the cost of significant bad press from the many that we lose. In conclusion, since (from what I hear) Gentoo does not have a slick installer and it definitely does not have a Ubuntu/MS Windows style zero-knowledge(TM) automated update system, I would vote to stay with the Gentoo handbook. Improve that if you wish. Thanks for listening. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
Most of you can stop reading right now ;-) I can see that people seem to like Gentoo for different reasons. Here's what attracted me go Gentoo: I'm not a Windows convert. I started using Linux before Windows really made its mark. I remember when most people ran 1 or 2 Windows apps and everything else ran in DOS (especially games). I started using Unix at my university in the early 90s. I loved it. For me it was like DOS on steroids. I'm a power user, and Unix was powerful, very customizable, and did things you could never dream of doing with WinDOS. I remember thinking "if only I could run Unix on my PC..." Enter Linux. My first distro was Slackware, around 1994. Slackware is one of the first distros and was so named because it was intended for "slackers" who were too lazy/inexperienced to install Linux from scratch and needed a nice little installer. It's ironic that today Slackware is considered the "difficult" distro and Ubuntu could be considered "Slackware Ultimate." Initially for me, being a newbie, Slackware fit in fine. But one of the problems I had with it was that software updates didn't come fast enough, and updating the distribution was usually a re-install as opposed to an update. I'd typically find myself installing a very minimal Slackware base install and pretty much everything else I downloaded and installed from source into /usr/local. I was already used to compiling from source from my Unix days (I remember having to manually edit Makefiles before we had tools like ./configure) so none of this intimidated me. But the old software, package management and upgrades (or lack thereof) made Slackware difficult to manage. I tried Red Hat (and briefly Debian) but none of them really satisfied me. Then I found out about Gentoo. It was awesome. I could do all the low-level stuff I did with Slackware (and more) yet get package management *and* upgrades were a no-brainer. And the power! Gentoo doesn't get in your way and it's hard to find something it can't do. I also love stage1 installs. Good stuff! I hope Gentoo doesn't go too far from its roots for the sake of becoming more popular or appealing to a different/wider audience. Not that I don't welcome changes when they're needed/helpful, but if it goes against Larry's fundamental philosophy* (and mine) about what makes Gentoo a great distro then I'm likely to oppose it. * Larry the cow: see http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/about.xml -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
>> Why not? Gentoo is aimed at more experienced users, Linux novices are >> already amply catered for by other distros. I would never recommend >> Gentoo to a new Linux user, in the same way that I wouldn't recommend >> a Ferrari to a learner driver. I don't necessarily agree. I've recommended Gentoo to a few first time (or relatively new) Linux users. The key is whether somebody is willing to spend the time, read, and understand what's going on under the hood. For people who are looking for something to "just work", I wouldn't recommend it as Gentoo could turn them off from Linux altogether. However, for people who like to get their hands dirty, and who don't mind reading, and don't mind doing things by hand, I think it's a great learning experience. If you install Ubuntu, you're probably not going to know what xdm/gdm is. You're definitely not going to know how to compile your own kernel. And grub is probably just going to be that screen that shows up for 5 seconds as the computer starts up. Now, when something goes wrong, you're not going to know where to start. After doing a Gentoo install, IMO you get a much better feeling of the inner components. But, again, I wouldn't recommend it to everyone, but I do think there are some first time Linux users who it would be right for.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
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»Q« wrote:
> Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:05:18 +, Guanqun Lu wrote:
>>
>>> We can't expect that all the Gentoo users should be a linux geek
>>> first, and then have a try on Gentoo linux sytem.
>> Why not? Gentoo is aimed at more experienced users, Linux novices are
>> already amply catered for by other distros. I would never recommend
>> Gentoo to a new Linux user, in the same way that I wouldn't recommend
>> a Ferrari to a learner driver.
I don't know about some people here, but I don't care if Gentoo is
'popular'. I didn't care if I was popular in school, and I don't care
about it now. GNU/Linux isn't 'popular', Micro$oft is. One of the
greatest strengths of the FOSS movement is choices. Gentoo offers
people a choice to get their hands dirty, and customize the heck out
of everything they want. I threw Ubuntu on a laptop so I can test
drive it (I'm suggesting it to family / friends / clients as a windows
replacement) but I can't get luks to work on it currently. I went to
check /proc/config.gz to see if some stuff was enabled, there wasn't
/proc/config.gz. It took me 3 minutes to do on my Gentoo box because
I've made every decision on that machine.
>
> I was a Linux newbie when I installed Gentoo; it was the first distro
> I installed. It was recommended to me by a friend who said if I wanted
> to learn a lot as I installed it and set it up, Gentoo was a good
> idea. I now recommend it to newbies on the same basis. But it's only
> useful to them in this way /without/ the graphical installer.
>
>
Here here! I came from Red Hat 7.3, and I didn't even know how to
compile a kernel. My first try at Gentoo was 1.2_rc4 on a laptop that
had weird memory / pcmcia issues. My buddy suggested it to me because
he thought I'd like it. I learned *SO* much about GNU/Linux through
that experience and I'm still learning a lot. The problem with a
graphical installer is you're basically on a buggie ride through the
jungle. As long as you stay on the beaten path; you feel amazing
because you're seeing all of this stuff in the jungle. The moment you
jump off the beaten path you're amazingly ill-equipped to be in the
jungle. Might as well let people know what they're in for rather than
putting on heirs.
>> Anyway, you need to use other distros first to truly appreciate
>> Gentoo :)
>
> Ain't that the truth.
>
Yep! With the exception of some people on this list, most people I
know who tried out Gentoo (and don't mind getting their hands dirty)
won't go to anything else. Yum is ok, apt-get is kinda odd to me, but
emerge makes sense. Also, you're {generally} not maintaining two
systems (the binary one they give you and your source compiled system}.
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Re: [gentoo-user] re: about the 2007.1
Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 07:21:36 -0500, David Relson wrote: > > >> Some efforts were also made with the command line installer. My >> problem there was typing and overlooking details. If I mistyped >> something (or forgot to enter needed info) and went on to the next >> screen, there was no way to go back and correct the mistake/oversight. >> > > There is no command line "installer" just a series of commands to be run > in a shell. If you miss one, go and do it. Bash doesn't need a back button. > > >> I've not yet updated to the AMD64 version of Gentoo because of the >> painful memories of the initial installation. >> > > You probably learned a lot from that pain, try it again and you'll > probably find it much easier. > > > And when you are typing in a command, the tab key can be your best friend. I have found that the tab key can cut a lot of typing and typos out of the process. Hope that tip helps. Dale :-) :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] re: about the 2007.1
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 07:21:36 -0500, David Relson wrote: > Some efforts were also made with the command line installer. My > problem there was typing and overlooking details. If I mistyped > something (or forgot to enter needed info) and went on to the next > screen, there was no way to go back and correct the mistake/oversight. There is no command line "installer" just a series of commands to be run in a shell. If you miss one, go and do it. Bash doesn't need a back button. > I've not yet updated to the AMD64 version of Gentoo because of the > painful memories of the initial installation. You probably learned a lot from that pain, try it again and you'll probably find it much easier. -- Neil Bothwick Locutous for Pontiac: Excitment is irrelivent. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-user] re: about the 2007.1
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 22:30:24 -0600 »Q« wrote: > Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:05:18 +, Guanqun Lu wrote: > > > > > We can't expect that all the Gentoo users should be a linux geek > > > first, and then have a try on Gentoo linux sytem. > > > > Why not? Gentoo is aimed at more experienced users, Linux novices > > are already amply catered for by other distros. I would never > > recommend Gentoo to a new Linux user, in the same way that I > > wouldn't recommend a Ferrari to a learner driver. > > I was a Linux newbie when I installed Gentoo; it was the first distro > I installed. It was recommended to me by a friend who said if I > wanted to learn a lot as I installed it and set it up, Gentoo was a > good idea. I now recommend it to newbies on the same basis. But > it's only useful to them in this way /without/ the graphical > installer. I had about 9 yrs experience with Linux (first Slackware, then RedHat, then Mandrake) before installing Gentoo. My goal was to get it up and running with minimal aggravation so I could then find out what the "Gentoo buzz" was all about. In the fall a year ago, I bit the bullet and burned a LiveCD. The graphical installer was nice but buggy. It'd ask for information then, on a later screen, would need some of the same info again -- as though the info had been forgotten or the screens weren't coordinated. If memory serves, this happened (for example) with network configuration, notably static IP addresses. Then, as loads of packages were being loaded from the CD and/or updated from the network, there would be an error and the installation would die in a partially completed state. This happened over and over. Some efforts were also made with the command line installer. My problem there was typing and overlooking details. If I mistyped something (or forgot to enter needed info) and went on to the next screen, there was no way to go back and correct the mistake/oversight. It was not fun. I eventually managed to get up and running as I got far enough in one of the efforts to have a bootable and usable system. Now after a year of running Gentoo I'm quite pleased with it. I've also updated my hardware from an AMD XP to an AMD 64 X2. I've not yet updated to the AMD64 version of Gentoo because of the painful memories of the initial installation. I must be in the class of users who use Gentoo _in_ _spite_ _of_ the installation procedure. Regards, David -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 07:31:21 +, Graham Murray wrote: > That is as long as the hardware has graphical capabilities. A text > (curses) based installer would also allow installation on systems with > serial consoles (like traditional *nix system). A well designed curses > application is just as easy to use The Gentoo Installer Project uses separate front and back ends, so the same installer has GTK and ncurses inerfaces. There was also talk of a web frontend at one point, which I though ws an excellent idea for installing to several machines on a network at the same time. The sysadmin could boot each machine from the CD then scuttle back to his dark corner to run all the installs from tabs in the same browser window. -- Neil Bothwick When you said you wanted to live in sin, I didn't know you meant "sloth" signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Gentoo needs an easy to use, graphical installation CD, period. What I > would do is lower(simplify) the goals of what that installation CD > accomplishes. Once you get a drive prepared, kernel installed and the > basic tools installed (binary or compiled). At that point, it's fairly > straightforward to turn the box into a server, firewall, or > workstation. That is as long as the hardware has graphical capabilities. A text (curses) based installer would also allow installation on systems with serial consoles (like traditional *nix system). A well designed curses application is just as easy to use (though does not offer the eye candy) as a graphical WIMP based one, and it takes less room on the install media, does not need the complexity of auto-detecting the graphics hardware, monitor capabilities etc. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:05:18 +, Guanqun Lu wrote: > > > We can't expect that all the Gentoo users should be a linux geek > > first, and then have a try on Gentoo linux sytem. > > Why not? Gentoo is aimed at more experienced users, Linux novices are > already amply catered for by other distros. I would never recommend > Gentoo to a new Linux user, in the same way that I wouldn't recommend > a Ferrari to a learner driver. I was a Linux newbie when I installed Gentoo; it was the first distro I installed. It was recommended to me by a friend who said if I wanted to learn a lot as I installed it and set it up, Gentoo was a good idea. I now recommend it to newbies on the same basis. But it's only useful to them in this way /without/ the graphical installer. > Anyway, you need to use other distros first to truly appreciate > Gentoo :) Ain't that the truth. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 21:03 -0600, Dan Farrell wrote: [snip] Sorry to jump in late in the thread, but have you come across sabayon? It seems to address some of your concerns... http://www.sabayonlinux.org/ http://wiki.sabayonlinux.org/index.php http://junauza.blogspot.com/2007/09/sabayon-gentle-gentoo.html these links might be interesting to you... cya, -- Iain Buchanan The price of greatness is responsibility. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 01:18:35 + Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And the Gentoo > manual install is not exactly difficult, it just needs a wilingness to > read the docs. A prerequisite that is well deserved. The question is whether there's a place for another option. The present second option -- the liveCD install method -- fails to present gentoo accurately, and worse, it represents gentoo unfavorably. Furthermore, as some have already mentioned, there _is_ a problem with the idea of automating an os install from source: package emerges are simply too fickle to be trusted to install an entire system from all the way up to KDE/Gnome. I present only the one example; I believe We should redefine our live CD as an installation _media_ that can evolve independently of an installation system. We should then redefine our 'automatic installation' as an 'Official' stage 4 tarball (perhaps a few options would be in order) that can be unarchived to a target filesystem to produce a working system in literally minutes. > If you think I am taking the "installer is an idiot filter" line you > are very much mistaken. Gentoo has a purpose, and that purpose is > different from the likes of Ubuntu or SUSE. That is not to detract > from any of them, but trying to force one to be like another is doing > a great disservice to both. If Gentoo is not different, serving a > different type of user, what is the point of it? thinking now, I am surprised we don't already release official stage4s. It's a good fit with the handbook, portage, and the philosophy. On the other hand, perhaps the learning curve is a little too steep for some. They might have time to adapt to the altitude, at least, if there were an easier approach to the Linux mountain. Niel, you voice my feelings in the matter well. Do you think we should require users to perform a stage 3 install to run gentoo on their systems? Or might you agree that we might be able to find a replacement for the hideous graphical install that would actually be a _good_ thing for gentoo? Interested to hear yours, and others', thoughts, Dan Farrell. P.S. This conversation reminds me of the GWN's request for content. I don't know exactly how you'd make it a contribution, but it seems like a big area of discussion in the community. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:45:44 + (UTC), James wrote: > > At which point the new user is diving into the handbook partway > > though, missing important information from the first part. There is > > no point in using graphical installer if users still need to drop to > > the command line to administer the system, and if you want an all > > graphical installation and administration environment, use YaST. > > > Well, I forgot to mention that one of my tenants to a graphical > installation is that is also be 'unattended'. Input the configuration > data and let it run. If it can successfully run, unattended, then it > really does not matter if it takes 15 minutes or 15 hours. So you want an automated install, but that goes against the Gentoo ethos of putting the user in control and also causes problems later because the user does not understand what they have installed. > I disagree with your 'no point.. if you still drop to the comand line" > I'm not suggesting that Gentoo be run and managed from webmin. I'm just > saying a stripped down (see above) installation that gets the basics > in place, unattended, after inputing the necessary configuration > information would be quite nice. What necessary configuration information? In Gentoo, everything is configurable and the user needs to understand this to benefit from Gentoo. > However, I run those updates at night (unattended) and deal with > failures the next day. How do you deal with those failures if your basic understanding f the system is lacking? > > hiding that behind a pretty pointy-clicky installer until > > the system is installed and then hitting the user with the truth can > > leave them feeling conned. What is wrong with being honest about the > > situation and telling people up front "if you are not prepared for > > some reading and typing, Gentoo is not for you". > I totally disagree with you here. I have many of happy gentoo users > that are quite novice. Once you install gentoo and get kde-meta > running, it's quite easy to maintain a gentoo system and add new apps. Users or user/administrators? Using Gentoo is no different from using any Linux system, KDE is KDE etc. Administering the system is another matter. > Bottom line, if folks like that are not attracted to Gentoo, solely > based on the installation medium and the subsequent pain, then, > as a distro Gentoo is severely lacking. Only if one if its stated objectives is (or requires) a simplified installation process. Attracting someone with a simple installer then hitting them with reality afterwards is far less friendly. And the Gentoo manual install is not exactly difficult, it just needs a wilingness to read the docs. > Dam bro... I have a lot of respect for you, your skills, and your > persistence on this list. YOU have helped me quite a lot over time, > even when I was 'dense' about a few things...however > Seems like we had that attitude here > in America, centuries ago towards black folks... Your are comparing a "horses for courses" attitude to distro development to racism? !! > Isn't Gentoo as much of an educational system (about unix and computing > and math and engineering and IT and the web and embedded systems > and just learning how to be_cool(?), and community; as it > is a power tool for techies? Yes it is. How do you learn by clicking a few buttons and letting everything important happen out of sight and without your knowledge or understanding? > Out of the masses Gentoo attracts, there > will be more cream that rises to the highest levels, or mankind > is doomed (methinks). I'm an old, jaded techie, but at least my > charity to others is not so...hardened. If you think I am taking the "installer is an idiot filter" line you are very much mistaken. Gentoo has a purpose, and that purpose is different from the likes of Ubuntu or SUSE. That is not to detract from any of them, but trying to force one to be like another is doing a great disservice to both. If Gentoo is not different, serving a different type of user, what is the point of it? -- Neil Bothwick I'm Pink, Therefore I'm Spam signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/ says nothing about a November > release, or any release date for 2007.1, and that page should be > considered authoritative. In my browser, it does say something about a November release of 2007.1. But it also says that dates are estimated and actual release dates may not match the roadmap. So, authoritative in a subject-to-change-without-notice kinda way. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
Neil Bothwick digimed.co.uk> writes: > > All you have said presupposes one (erroneous) assumption: that is an > > easy to use graphical install cannot be used if the distro is source > > code based. Nothing could be further from the truth. An easy to use > > graphical installation, should only be for getting the HD prepared, > > kernel installed and a minimum number of software packages installed. > > Then the customizing could continue as is normal via the handbook. > At which point the new user is diving into the handbook partway though, > missing important information from the first part. There is no point in > using graphical installer if users still need to drop to the command > line to administer the system, and if you want an all graphical > installation and administration environment, use YaST. Well, I forgot to mention that one of my tenants to a graphical installation is that is also be 'unattended'. Input the configuration data and let it run. If it can successfully run, unattended, then it really does not matter if it takes 15 minutes or 15 hours. I disagree with your 'no point.. if you still drop to the comand line" I'm not suggesting that Gentoo be run and managed from webmin. I'm just saying a stripped down (see above) installation that gets the basics in place, unattended, after inputing the necessary configuration information would be quite nice. Gentoo servers are very easy to maintain. Workstations (full of X, KDE(Gnome), and apps, are the constant battle). Gentoo could easily attract more small business and users, just by packaging up things like DNS servers, firewalls, webserver, ecommerce servers etc.etc. However, I run those updates at night (unattended) and deal with failures the next day. It's easy just use something like: emerge -uDNv world; emerge --skipfirts --resume; add in an occational revdep-rebuild and you should have a happy system. Gentoo wikis go a long way to 'self help' with gentoo, in my experience. > > A nice graphical installation process would help the distro grow and > > gain presence in more places, which is always a good thing. > Don't confuse quantity and quality. Simpler installation and > administration of a number of machines, not necessarily identical, would > do more for the take up of Gentoo in areas where it could really benefit. We totally agree here, but, I do not see the existence of a simplified, gui based installation, as a threat to the (power)heritage of Gentoo. > > Distros survive, regardless of being free or for sell, because they > > attract a large user base. Gentoo needs an easy to use, graphical > > installation CD, period. > All that would do is increase the number of disaffected users. You need > to read the documentation and use the command line to use Gentoo > effectively, AGREED! > hiding that behind a pretty pointy-clicky installer until > the system is installed and then hitting the user with the truth can leave > them feeling conned. What is wrong with being honest about the situation > and telling people up front "if you are not prepared for some reading and > typing, Gentoo is not for you". I totally disagree with you here. I have many of happy gentoo users that are quite novice. Once you install gentoo and get kde-meta running, it's quite easy to maintain a gentoo system and add new apps. For some of the folks, I ssh in remotely to fix/add stuff, the rest, learn compound commands strings, like the one above and do not bother me for months/years at a time. The fact that their software is routinely updated mostly at night, makes them very happy. The aforementioned story about a computer science grad student is very real. He's Indian (from India) very smart and designing chips by prototyping things on FPGA. He knew about Gentoo and wanted it. He had tried to install it before and had trouble (he knows me but did not ask for help) so he opted for Ubuntu. Bottom line, if folks like that are not attracted to Gentoo, solely based on the installation medium and the subsequent pain, then, as a distro Gentoo is severely lacking. I am like you, to stubborn to give up on anything I really want to do. Others are not so fortified, in their determination. > The Gentoo Installer Project has some good goals, but attracting people > for whom Gentoo is not the right choice should not be one of them. Dam bro... I have a lot of respect for you, your skills, and your persistence on this list. YOU have helped me quite a lot over time, even when I was 'dense' about a few things...however Seems like we had that attitude here in America, centuries ago towards black folks... Isn't Gentoo as much of an educational system (about unix and computing and math and engineering and IT and the web and embedded systems and just learning how to be_cool(?), and community; as it is a power tool for techies? Out of the masses Gentoo attracts, there will be more cream that rises to the highest levels, or mankind is doom
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:05:18 +, Guanqun Lu wrote: > > >> We can't expect that all the Gentoo users should be a linux geek first, >> and then have a try on Gentoo linux sytem. >> > > Why not? Gentoo is aimed at more experienced users, Linux novices are > already amply catered for by other distros. I would never recommend > Gentoo to a new Linux user, in the same way that I wouldn't recommend > a Ferrari to a learner driver. > > Anyway, you need to use other distros first to truly appreciate Gentoo :) > > > Well said. I used Mandrake for a while before switching to Gentoo. Gentoo for someone new to Linux is doable but not recommended. That said, a graphical installer would not bug me as long as I can do it the command line way. I just like the old way myself. To old to change maybe? :/ Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
Neil Bothwick wrote: All that would do is increase the number of disaffected users. You need to read the documentation and use the command line to use Gentoo effectively, hiding that behind a pretty pointy-clicky installer until the system is installed and then hitting the user with the truth can leave them feeling conned. What is wrong with being honest about the situation and telling people up front "if you are not prepared for some reading and typing, Gentoo is not for you". The Gentoo Installer Project has some good goals, but attracting people for whom Gentoo is not the right choice should not be one of them. +1 My 2c - the live cd is great - providing a nice environment for installation, and what sort of installation you may ask?... well a character based installation of course - following the fine instructions in the handbook! I think we need to realize that Gentoo is a 'mildly expert required' type of distribution - and thats a good thing! For those who want graphical-point-click there is Ubuntu et al (I used Yellow Dog for a while for this very reason when starting out with Linux). regards Mark -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:05:18 +, Guanqun Lu wrote: > We can't expect that all the Gentoo users should be a linux geek first, > and then have a try on Gentoo linux sytem. Why not? Gentoo is aimed at more experienced users, Linux novices are already amply catered for by other distros. I would never recommend Gentoo to a new Linux user, in the same way that I wouldn't recommend a Ferrari to a learner driver. Anyway, you need to use other distros first to truly appreciate Gentoo :) -- Neil Bothwick Jimi Hendrix's modem was a Purple Hayes. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 02:24:49 + (UTC), James wrote: > All you have said presupposes one (erroneous) assumption: that is an > easy to use graphical install cannot be used if the distro is source > code based. Nothing could be further from the truth. An easy to use > graphical installation, should only be for getting the HD prepared, > kernel installed and a minimum number of software packages installed. > Then the customizing could continue as is normal via the handbook. At which point the new user is diving into the handbook partway though, missing important information from the first part. There is no point in using graphical installer if users still need to drop to the command line to administer the system, and if you want an all graphical installation and administration environment, use YaST. > A nice graphical installation process would help the distro grow and > gain presence in more places, which is always a good thing. Don't confuse quantity and quality. Simpler installation and administration of a number of machines, not necessarily identical, would do more for the take up of Gentoo in areas where it could really benefit. > Distros survive, regardless of being free or for sell, because they > attract a large user base. Gentoo needs an easy to use, graphical > installation CD, period. All that would do is increase the number of disaffected users. You need to read the documentation and use the command line to use Gentoo effectively, hiding that behind a pretty pointy-clicky installer until the system is installed and then hitting the user with the truth can leave them feeling conned. What is wrong with being honest about the situation and telling people up front "if you are not prepared for some reading and typing, Gentoo is not for you". The Gentoo Installer Project has some good goals, but attracting people for whom Gentoo is not the right choice should not be one of them. -- Neil Bothwick THE BORG: Calm, Cool and Collective... signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:22:30 -0600 Albert Hopkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...] > > There are lots of distros (Linux and non-Linux) that either don't have a > graphical install and/or don't have a large user base and still survive. > I mean Slackware is probably the oldest living distro, is still kicking > and screaming (for some strange reason) and it doesn't even have decent > package management. OpenBSD, which Gentoo more closely resembles than > Ubuntu, has been around almost as long as Slack and it doesn't have a > graphical installation. Yeah, they "still survive". But why don't we expect more? Let Gentoo be much more popular. [...] > > Not installation CD: boot media. But to answer your question I don't > find it weird at all. It's one of the selling points of Gentoo. A few > months ago I installed Gentoo on a partition on a machine that was > installed with Ubuntu just by creating a partition, downloading a stage3 > tarball and doing a chroot. Maybe it's weird to the outsider, but I > think it's wonderful. For the advanced users, your creating, downloading and chrooting is as easy as pie. But for the outsider, it's rather complicated, and they wonder why this step should taken instead of another. The easy-to-use installation CD is good for starters, gives them a good impression. We can't expect that all the Gentoo users should be a linux geek first, and then have a try on Gentoo linux sytem. [...] -- Guanqun -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
On Donnerstag, 8. November 2007, James wrote: two things: memory. Every mb wasted for X - or even worse gnome, the biggest memory hog out there - is a mb that can't be used by gcc. Thus a graphical environment slows down installation. cd/dvd space. Every mb wasted for a full blown X and a harddisk/dvd/cd space hog like gnome is a mb that can not be used for providing distfiles, stages or GRP packages thus increasing the time the installing user has to wait to fetch them from the net. This two points are very valid reasons why graphical installers are bad. There are even more reasons, but I am just too lazy at the moment. Think about bugs - you should find them yourself. Btw, I remember the days when all installation instructions fit on one sheet of Din A5 paper - and installing was easier than to beat the graphical installer into submission. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 02:24 +, James wrote: [...] > All you have said presupposes one (erroneous) assumption: that is an easy > to use graphical install cannot be used if the distro is source code > based. Nothing could be further from the truth. An easy to use > graphical installation, should only be for getting the HD prepared, kernel > installed and a minimum number of software packages installed. Then the > customizing could continue as is normal via the handbook. > Actually I did not make that assumption, and in fact tried (and failed obviously) to de-emphasize Gentoo being source based... yep, only mentioned it once. What I did mention multiple times (which apparently did not come across) was the low-level, hands-on approach that Gentoo has traditionally taken (of which being source based is only a part). A graphical install tool, while certainly welcome as another "choice" for Gentoo users to make, doesn't exactly fit that tradition. > A nice graphical installation process would help the distro grow and gain > presence in more places, which is always a good thing. The 'mindset' > that if gentoo had some easy to use graphical install, it would alter the > mega-distro (sourcecode) nature of Gentoo, is misguided at best. > I.E. they are not mutually exclusive, but complimentary. I have nothing against a graphical installation per se (other than it being mandatory). My only issue with the current implementation is simple: A lot of people who use it find it doesn't work. This gives Gentoo a bad rep. People use it and assume all of Gentoo is going to be easy-to-use. Then feel disappointed when it isn't. This gives Gentoo a bad rep. > > Distros survive, regardless of being free or for sell, because they > attract a large user base. Gentoo needs an easy to use, graphical > installation CD, period. What I would do is lower(simplify) the goals of what > that installation CD accomplishes. Once you get a drive prepared, > kernel installed and the basic tools installed (binary > or compiled). At that point, it's fairly straightforward to turn the box > into a server, firewall, or workstation. There are lots of distros (Linux and non-Linux) that either don't have a graphical install and/or don't have a large user base and still survive. I mean Slackware is probably the oldest living distro, is still kicking and screaming (for some strange reason) and it doesn't even have decent package management. OpenBSD, which Gentoo more closely resembles than Ubuntu, has been around almost as long as Slack and it doesn't have a graphical installation. > You, nor any respondent has given one shred of evidence as to why the > installation CD cannot be graphical, easy to use and still be the gentoo we > all > know and love ( that is source code based). Its only a guess, but I think > the devs that work on the CD are trying to make the installation full featured > just like going through the handbook. Simplify and drop those troublesome > features/options found in the handbook, in order to simplify the creation > of an installation CD. After all 3 types of stages use to be offered, now > the stage 3 is the most preferred. In the end you still end up with the > same gentoo system regardless if you use stage 1 or stage 3, eventually. If someone wants to develop and maintain a graphical installation cd as an alternative to the native one than that's cool so long as I'm not forced to use it. If the current one worked most of the time and wasn't misleading I wouldn't have a problem with it, in fact I'd probably wouldn't even have heard of it. Unfortunately it doesn't not seem to meet those stantards. > Does it not sound a little weird that many folks recommend using another > installation CD to facilitate the installation of Gentoo? Not installation CD: boot media. But to answer your question I don't find it weird at all. It's one of the selling points of Gentoo. A few months ago I installed Gentoo on a partition on a machine that was installed with Ubuntu just by creating a partition, downloading a stage3 tarball and doing a chroot. Maybe it's weird to the outsider, but I think it's wonderful. -- Albert W. Hopkins -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
Em Qui 08 Nov 2007, James escreveu: > Albert Hopkins letterboxes.org> writes: > > I chose Gentoo to get away from the major distros. There is plenty of > > competition in that market. Let Gentoo be Gentoo and not Yet Another > > Ubuntu [TM]. > [...] > > You, nor any respondent has given one shred of evidence as to why the > installation CD cannot be graphical, easy to use and still be the gentoo we > all know and love ( that is source code based). [...] Since I'm not an English native speaker, I apologize for my _very_ poor English. I also apologize for any mistake in text interpretation... I _think_ that build a lot of boot CDs (2007.0, 2007.1, 2007.2, 2007.3 and so on) is an wasting of time and get off the KISS principle. You already have a _lot_ of boot CDs and/or another methods in order to install your Gentoo's system on a new machine. So, why should I* build an new boot CD just for two* people use? I could use this time in order to fix bugs, improve installations UI, give a bath in my dog or watch a movie with my girlfriend... :-) _But_ I agree that Gentoo _should_ have an better/easiest installation method for those days when you can't wait and/or be typing 83465247238 commands. :-P So: I _think_ that Gentoo's installation CD can have an/be graphical installer, but __I__ still also _think_ that's a wasting of time. :-) * "So, why should I build an new boot CD just for two people use?" => I'm not an developer. But I think that you understand my point. :-) Best regards, -- Davi Vidal -- E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GTalk : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype : davi vidal ICQ : 138815296 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
I'm going to take a lot of liberties both with humorous informality (hopefully you'll agree with that name for it) and argument; please accept it as a cheerfully submitted 'other side of the argument'. On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 00:32:58 + (UTC) James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Daniel Iliev gmail.com> writes: > > > I´m waiting for too. > > > Why? > > ... > Well, I think that fixing that abortion of an installation CD > is of paramount concern. Like it or not, the first thing prospective > new users see, is the installation process. In my opinion, it > is of quintessential importance for Gentoo to have a normal, > functional, easy installation CD. gentoo is unlike ubuntu (for example) in that if you're using portage, you're probably going to have to be comfortable at the command line. That's why i've always been skeptical of the graphical install process. It's not a very user-friendly distro to run, either. It's a very command-line-centric distro, and not particularly well suited to people who just want to 'install linux and get on with using their computers' -- although, i think it would be a great foundation for that kind of an install. A stage 4, as it were, that was more officially supported by the distro. After all, can we really expect installation from source to go flawlessly for all those packages , for all those users accross the web? from that point of view, gentoo doesn't have a 'distribution' install cd at all, but rather a script to automate the manual install process. and I think an "official Stage 4" going to satisfy your concerns and preserve the gentoo philosophy the best. Anyhow... > I've been using Gentoo since 2004. I know graduate students in > Computer Science that use Ubuntu in lieu of Gentoo, solely based on > the nightmare that installing Gentoo via a normal graphical install > CD is Yeah, but if they would have used the minimal cd like graduate students in Computer Science should, they probably would have been fine ; ) If you ask me, the graphical cds gave us more bad press than the lack thereof. > If you do not like my opinion, you should look at what Daniel Robbins > had to say, as I ran across a posting of his today, about this very > issue. (but no link, how can I?) > An awesome collection of techies does not gravitate users > to join the ranks of distro users. A (easy) graphical installation > method is a requirement. Gentoo get's tons of bad reviews, > based on the installation process. True, too true. There is altogether too little press concerning the manual install process, cherished (apparently) by everyone who actually uses gentoo and doesn't just install it. And far too little coverage of the parts of gentoo that rock -- that's the thing about reviewers: they are doing workstation installs and they don't generally do much package management before writing up the review and moving on to the next distro. There _are_ good things about gentoo, unique things that no other distributions offer -- I think the active members the list and the forums agree to that. But these things aren't the automatic install process ( I consider the manual install process one of them, if you haven't noticed). > Yes I've installed dozens of gentoo system, and the resulting > product is wonderful, much akin to a girl with a great personality. > However, she ain't every going to get 'laid' (become popular) > because the (installation) process is *UGLY*. If you think the command line is ugly. If you ask me, it's ncurses that's ugly. Command line doesn't look great, but it works pretty slick. all those unix people were really thinking... > Let us first be honest about this, so it can be fixed. At that > point ( a normal installation CD), Gentoo can take it's > rightful place as a major distro I agree that this is very important to the popularity of gentoo... but _not_ to its usability post-install. That's why I think the balance must be walked delicately, because with if there is too much emphesis on what is basically marketing, I worry along with the others that the quality of the product will suffer. That's why it seems that an official stage4 would be a good compromise. It should be pretty easy to make it into a bootable cd or usb stick, or you could just un-tar it and run grub in a script file, after setting up a few values (hostname, etc). But you still get portage and the slickness of gentoo, right off the bat. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
Albert Hopkins letterboxes.org> writes: > I chose Gentoo to get away from the major distros. There is plenty of > competition in that market. Let Gentoo be Gentoo and not Yet Another > Ubuntu [TM]. All you have said presupposes one (erroneous) assumption: that is an easy to use graphical install cannot be used if the distro is source code based. Nothing could be further from the truth. An easy to use graphical installation, should only be for getting the HD prepared, kernel installed and a minimum number of software packages installed. Then the customizing could continue as is normal via the handbook. A nice graphical installation process would help the distro grow and gain presence in more places, which is always a good thing. The 'mindset' that if gentoo had some easy to use graphical install, it would alter the mega-distro (sourcecode) nature of Gentoo, is misguided at best. I.E. they are not mutually exclusive, but complimentary. Distros survive, regardless of being free or for sell, because they attract a large user base. Gentoo needs an easy to use, graphical installation CD, period. What I would do is lower(simplify) the goals of what that installation CD accomplishes. Once you get a drive prepared, kernel installed and the basic tools installed (binary or compiled). At that point, it's fairly straightforward to turn the box into a server, firewall, or workstation. You, nor any respondent has given one shred of evidence as to why the installation CD cannot be graphical, easy to use and still be the gentoo we all know and love ( that is source code based). Its only a guess, but I think the devs that work on the CD are trying to make the installation full featured just like going through the handbook. Simplify and drop those troublesome features/options found in the handbook, in order to simplify the creation of an installation CD. After all 3 types of stages use to be offered, now the stage 3 is the most preferred. In the end you still end up with the same gentoo system regardless if you use stage 1 or stage 3, eventually. Does it not sound a little weird that many folks recommend using another installation CD to facilitate the installation of Gentoo? James -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
> Well, I think that fixing that abortion of an installation CD > is of paramount concern. Like it or not, the first thing prospective > new users see, is the installation process. In my opinion, it > is of quintessential importance for Gentoo to have a normal, > functional, easy installation CD. > I disagree. When I started using Gentoo it was mostly seen as a better LFS than LFS. You start with a bare minimum boot CD and go from stage1. That was, and still is, the thing that attracted me to Gentoo. IMO the graphical install thingie should be ditched. Its basically masking Gentoo to look like something it's not (and failing miserably). There are other distros that do that in do it successfully. Gentoo has always been primarily a source-based distribution where you have to roll your sleeves and get dirty. Let's keep it that way. > I've been using Gentoo since 2004. I know graduate students in Computer > Science that use Ubuntu in lieu of Gentoo, solely based on the > nightmare that installing Gentoo via a normal graphical install > CD is > Ubuntu is great for that. Ubuntu is great for people who want things to "just work" Gentoo is just the opposite. It's for people who like to fiddle, tweak, and get under the hood. For people who want "just works" I would recommend Ubuntu over Gentoo. What I don't recommend is turning Gentoo *into* Ubuntu. Ubuntu already has enough competition in that area as it is ;-) > If you do not like my opinion, you should look at what Daniel Robbins > had to say, as I ran across a posting of his today, about this very > issue. An awesome collection of techies does not gravitate users > to join the ranks of distro users. A (easy) graphical installation > method is a requirement. Gentoo get's tons of bad reviews, > based on the installation process. > This is a point where I disagree with Robbins, but I've disagreed with him before (such as his wanting to turn Gentoo into a for-profit instead of a community distro). The bad reviews are from those who are buying a kit-car and expecting it to work like a minivan. > Yes I've installed dozens of gentoo system, and the resulting > product is wonderful, much akin to a girl with a great personality. > However, she ain't every going to get 'laid' (become popular) > because the (installation) process is *UGLY*. Again, Gentoo ain't the girl you're gonna see on the cover of Cosmo. Gentoo is the girl whose not necessarily easy on the eyes but boy can she cook*! > > Let us first be honest about this, so it can be fixed. At that > point ( a normal installation CD), Gentoo can take it's > rightful place as a major distro I chose Gentoo to get away from the major distros. There is plenty of competition in that market. Let Gentoo be Gentoo and not Yet Another Ubuntu [TM]. * Substitute "cook" with whatever you please ;-) -- Albert W. Hopkins -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 00:32 +, James wrote: > > Yes I've installed dozens of gentoo system, and the resulting > product is wonderful, much akin to a girl with a great personality. > However, she ain't every going to get 'laid' (become popular) > because the (installation) process is *UGLY*. to use your analogy, I'd rather gentoo didn't get laid (or ravaged as the case may be) by the masses, but rather kept her nice personality, even if she is a bit ugly sometimes :) AU$0.02 -- Iain Buchanan One of the signs of Napoleon's greatness is the fact that he once had a publisher shot. -- Siegfried Unseld -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1
Daniel Iliev gmail.com> writes: > > I´m waiting for too. > Why? > In other words I don't need too many releases, but prefer the devs > spend their time for Gentoo on killing :) bugs and filling portage with > new software instead of taking snapshots and building CD/DVD images. Well, I think that fixing that abortion of an installation CD is of paramount concern. Like it or not, the first thing prospective new users see, is the installation process. In my opinion, it is of quintessential importance for Gentoo to have a normal, functional, easy installation CD. I've been using Gentoo since 2004. I know graduate students in Computer Science that use Ubuntu in lieu of Gentoo, solely based on the nightmare that installing Gentoo via a normal graphical install CD is If you do not like my opinion, you should look at what Daniel Robbins had to say, as I ran across a posting of his today, about this very issue. An awesome collection of techies does not gravitate users to join the ranks of distro users. A (easy) graphical installation method is a requirement. Gentoo get's tons of bad reviews, based on the installation process. Yes I've installed dozens of gentoo system, and the resulting product is wonderful, much akin to a girl with a great personality. However, she ain't every going to get 'laid' (become popular) because the (installation) process is *UGLY*. Let us first be honest about this, so it can be fixed. At that point ( a normal installation CD), Gentoo can take it's rightful place as a major distro ymmv, James -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
