Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 01:19 -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: alls the few packages you can't find in Gentoo, and putting them in /usr/local or /opt. Heck, I was doing the... Hi Walter, Exactly what I've started to do. Problem is, I'm only beginning to learn how to let Portage know that my manual install is there. Secondly, installing, say, Gnome 2.12 would be considered a major install with 9 trillion dependencies. Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:37:47 -0400, Paul Hoy wrote: ~arch is a little scary for me, since it's not in the stable branch. That's the whole point. ebuilds need to be thoroughly tested before being marked stable, so you need a testing branch. Without it, your stable branch would not be. -- Neil Bothwick Top Oxymorons Number 12: Plastic glasses pgpIxPkOHipEm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:40:49 +1200, Nick Rout wrote: However, when I first used gentoo I was always the first in my LUG to have the latest kde, evolution, mplayer etc, and that was running x86 not ~x86. My perception is that gentoo is no longer first off the block with stable releases. I think some of this confusion is caused by the way people switch between two uses of the word stable. It can mean doesn't crash, but then most upstream latest packages fit there, and some long standing releases don't. It can also mean not changing and this is what some people want from a distribution. If you run a server farm, you don't want to be continually upgrading just to get new features you don't need, you just want a system that works with timely security fixes. This is why Debian stable is so old, because for these people, old is good. Look at the situation with Firefox recently, where a new testing ebuild seemed to come out almost as soon as the previous one finished building. Great for those who want the latest and greatest, not so good for those who want a stable system. Gentoo gives you the choice, and even lets you pick and mix, so don't complain because you make an unsuitable choice. If you want the latest now, you need to use the testing packages, because the QA rules demand they remain in testing for a while. -- Neil Bothwick Windows Multitasking - screwing up several things at once pgpnk9U7PFUYg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:49:53 -0400, Paul Hoy wrote: What and where EXACTLY is gentoo behind any other release? openoffice [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# genlop openoffice-bin * app-office/openoffice-bin Wed Jul 20 15:29:36 2005 app-office/openoffice-bin-1.9.118 Fri Aug 5 15:07:02 2005 app-office/openoffice-bin-1.9.122 When was 1.9.122 released? -- Neil Bothwick What's another word for `Thesaurus'? pgpg1NNdg3mAd.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:39:39 -0400, Paul Hoy wrote: No, I want it one way: to receive the latest stable releases. I didn't say anything about unstable or testing releases. testing/stable refers to the ebuild, not the upstream package. If you want the latest, install the ~arch ebuild and report any problems you find. That's how a community distribution works, you can't just expect to be given the latest package on the day of release without some effort on your part. The stable tree is for those who want tried and tested software and ebuild, version chasers should use testing. I run testing on three architectures with far less problems than I had with Mandrake Cooker (and I didn't have too many of those) so don't think that testing means unstable, unreliable or dodgy in some way. All it really means is unproven, and the only way for it to move from there to stable is for people to use it. -- Neil Bothwick Iraqi terrorist, Khay Rahnajet, didn't pay enough postage on a letter bomb. It came back with return to sender stamped on it. Forgetting it was the bomb, he opened it and was blown to bits. pgpBReaJs6ndt.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Monday 15 August 2005 10:18, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:37:47 -0400, Paul Hoy wrote: ~arch is a little scary for me, since it's not in the stable branch. That's the whole point. ebuilds need to be thoroughly tested before being marked stable, so you need a testing branch. Without it, your stable branch would not be. I am a long time ~arch-only user and have/had less problems, than friends using the stable tree. Plus if there is a problem, my friends with stable will hit it too some days/week later - and I am there 'support', so it is good for me, if I already found a solution. It is not all about versions. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 09:28 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: I think some of this confusion is caused by the way people switch between two uses of the word stable. It can mean doesn't crash, but then most upstream latest packages fit there, and some long standing releases don't. It can also mean not changing and this is what some people want from a distribution. I think there is a third meaning with gentoo, namely when the ebuild is working well enough - this is independent of whether the upstream package is stable.(although it no doubt helps if it is). So you can have kde make a release (stable in their view) but gentoo takes some considerable time to make ebuilds that work acceptably, before they are marked stable (eg x86 cf ~x86) If you run a server farm, you don't want to be continually upgrading just to get new features you don't need, you just want a system that works with timely security fixes. -- Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:06:59 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: That's the whole point. ebuilds need to be thoroughly tested before being marked stable, so you need a testing branch. Without it, your stable branch would not be. I am a long time ~arch-only user and have/had less problems, than friends Spoken like a true geek :) using the stable tree. Plus if there is a problem, my friends with stable will hit it too some days/week later - and I am there 'support', so it is good for me, if I already found a solution. Oh, there's more :) I too have found ~arch to be extremely reliable. The main downside is the extra time spent on updates, which could be a killer in a production environment. -- Neil Bothwick Head: (n.) the part of a disk drive which detects sectors and decides which of the two possible values to return: 'lose a turn' or 'bankrupt.' pgpb8NP6ThgWJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Monday 15 August 2005 11:54, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:06:59 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: That's the whole point. ebuilds need to be thoroughly tested before being marked stable, so you need a testing branch. Without it, your stable branch would not be. I am a long time ~arch-only user and have/had less problems, than friends Spoken like a true geek :) using the stable tree. Plus if there is a problem, my friends with stable will hit it too some days/week later - and I am there 'support', so it is good for me, if I already found a solution. Oh, there's more :) I too have found ~arch to be extremely reliable. The main downside is the extra time spent on updates, which could be a killer in a production environment. oh yeah... and don't wait too long with the updates.. less than once every few days and the problems will pile up... from my humble experience, it is much less troublesome, to do daily updates, than weekly ones ;) So ~arch is only for people who don't mind having some compiling in the background running. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:50:00 +1200, Nick Rout wrote: I think some of this confusion is caused by the way people switch between two uses of the word stable. It can mean doesn't crash, but then most upstream latest packages fit there, and some long standing releases don't. It can also mean not changing and this is what some people want from a distribution. I think there is a third meaning with gentoo, namely when the ebuild is working well enough This is not another meaning but a different context. People keep assuming that the arch and ~arch alternatives refer to the package, when they only refer to the ebuild. - this is independent of whether the upstream package is stable.(although it no doubt helps if it is). So you can have kde make a release (stable in their view) but gentoo takes some considerable time to make ebuilds that work acceptably, before they are marked stable (eg x86 cf ~x86) It's not the time it takes to make them work acceptably, most of the KDE 3.4 ebuilds worked fine in the initial release. It is the time it takes to prove that they are suitable for marking stable. The stable ebuild is usually the same one that the ~arch users installed a month ago with no problems. Choosing between arch and ~arch is choosing whether you want someone else to test things for you or whether you are prepared to do some of the work yourself. -- Neil Bothwick Das Internet is nicht fuer gefingerclicken und giffengrabben. Ist easy droppenpacket der routers und overloaden der backbone mit der spammen und der me-tooen. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das mausklicken sichtseeren keepen das bandwit-spewin hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das cursorblinken. pgptFjIweD2PM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:02:46 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: oh yeah... and don't wait too long with the updates.. less than once every few days and the problems will pile up... from my humble experience, it is much less troublesome, to do daily updates, than weekly ones ;) Start every day with a nice strong brew and emerge world -uavDN :) -- Neil Bothwick I couldn't possibly be wrong. I use an error correcting modem! pgpzf5fOn5Yqb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:02:46 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: oh yeah... and don't wait too long with the updates.. less than once every few days and the problems will pile up... from my humble experience, it is much less troublesome, to do daily updates, than weekly ones ;) Start every day with a nice strong brew and emerge world -uavDN :) I used to do it every day like that. Lately I've reduced the frequency to 3 or 4 days which seems to work pretty well. Actually, since I've reduced the frequency, it seems like I've encountered far fewer broken builds. It's a probability game. More syncs and updates means more ebuilds built and more chances for things to go wrong. Plus, you end up building every little revision that comes out, which is wasteful. Zac -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
Zac Medico [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Are we really far behind? That's difficult to believe. For what packages specifically? Do you know how to unmask unstable packages (marked M or M~ at packages.gentoo.org)? ipsec-tools. The current upstream 'release' is 0.6, and 0.6.1 is at release candidate. The latest in portage is 0.5.2. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
Graham Murray wrote: Zac Medico [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Are we really far behind? That's difficult to believe. For what packages specifically? Do you know how to unmask unstable packages (marked M or M~ at packages.gentoo.org)? ipsec-tools. The current upstream 'release' is 0.6, and 0.6.1 is at release candidate. The latest in portage is 0.5.2. That's unfortunate. I guess none of the gentoo devs happen to be particularly interested in a version bump on that package. Oh well, most of them probably don't get paid for the work they do on gentoo, so who can blame them? Having more developers would help, but there will always be packages suffering from lack of developer interest. Usually with version bumps, you can just copy the existing ebuild into your overlay and rename it (see portage docs for PORDIR_OVERLAY). There is a version bump ebuild for ipsec-tools attached to bug 100692: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=100692 Zac -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 09:28 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:40:49 +1200, Nick Rout wrote: However, when I first used gentoo I was always the first in my LUG to have the latest kde, evolution, mplayer etc, and that was running x86 not ~x86. My perception is that gentoo is no longer first off the block with stable releases. I think some of this confusion is caused by the way people switch between two uses of the word stable. It can mean doesn't crash, but then most upstream latest packages fit there, and some long standing releases don't. It can also mean not changing and this is what some people want from a distribution. If you run a server farm, you don't want to be continually upgrading just to get new features you don't need, you just want a system that works with timely security fixes. This is why Debian stable is so old, because for these people, old is good. Look at the situation with Firefox recently, where a new testing ebuild seemed to come out almost as soon as the previous one finished building. Great for those who want the latest and greatest, not so good for those who want a stable system. Gentoo gives you the choice, and even lets you pick and mix, so don't complain because you make an unsuitable choice. If you want the latest now, you need to use the testing packages, because the QA rules demand they remain in testing for a while. Thanks, Neil. Already have begun testing my luck with the testing packages. I'll see what happens. Thanks for your explanation of the testking packages. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Paul Hoy wrote: I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as Fedora, in terms of when it releases updates, etc. I find that hard to believe... Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support the latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point-of-view? Does anyone wish to share a comparison of the two? The short version: LFS is for those who wishes to learn how to build an operating system from scratch. Or for control-freaks (like me). Or a combination of both... :-) Gentoo is a more practical version of LFS, where practical means less time-consuming, since you don't have to install each package (and it's dependencies) yourself and there are default settings/scripts that usually works ok with no/minor tweaking. Though you can install a package manager in LFS too (like rpm, apt, ports etc.). HTH Best regards Peter K -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 22:00 +0200, Peter Karlsson wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Paul Hoy wrote: I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as Fedora, in terms of when it releases updates, etc. I find that hard to believe... I know, I would find it hard to believe too. But, just a simple comparision with the Fedora feedlist will show you that this is generally true. Coincidently, I received a bunch of Fedora 3 4 email updates earlier today, which shows that Gentoo is behind 23 out of 24 of the updates, some of them quite significantly. Most of them are KDE-related files, so normally I would have never noticed this. I'll keep the list for awhile in case anyone is interested in reviewing it. Of course, you can also view the Fedora feedlist website. I should also add that I noted about eight random and recent examples. Finally, other users who joined the thread have also provided examples. Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support the latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point-of-view? Does anyone wish to share a comparison of the two? The short version: LFS is for those who wishes to learn how to build an operating system from scratch. Or for control-freaks (like me). Or a combination of both... :-) Gentoo is a more practical version of LFS, where practical means less time-consuming, since you don't have to install each package (and it's dependencies) yourself and there are default settings/scripts that usually works ok with no/minor tweaking. Though you can install a package manager in LFS too (like rpm, apt, ports etc.). I think I'm a combination of the two also. Thanks. HTH Best regards Peter K -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:58:54 -0400 Paul Hoy wrote: Coincidently, I received a bunch of Fedora 3 4 email updates earlier today, which shows that Gentoo is behind 23 out of 24 of the updates, some of them quite significantly. Most of them are KDE-related files, That confirms my thoughts (which i posted yesterday). So can you clarify, is that 23/24 packages are behind on x86 or on ~x86? i.e. would an ~x86 gentoo be ahead or behind fedora? -- Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 13:11 +1200, Nick Rout wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:58:54 -0400 Paul Hoy wrote: Coincidently, I received a bunch of Fedora 3 4 email updates earlier today, which shows that Gentoo is behind 23 out of 24 of the updates, some of them quite significantly. Most of them are KDE-related files, That confirms my thoughts (which i posted yesterday). So can you clarify, is that 23/24 packages are behind on x86 or on ~x86? i.e. would an ~x86 gentoo be ahead or behind fedora? My original email was 23/24 packages for x86. However, after reading your email, I compared the first 10 kde updates with ~x86 releases. It came out that Fedora was ahead 50 percent of the time or both distros shared the same release versions. In case I'm doing something incorrectly, you can also view the updates at http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/ Of course, this new comparison is between testing releases and so-called stable Fedora releases. There is a Fedora extras/unstable list (Fedora Core 4 Testing Updates) for that, but I don't receive that one. It also should be noted that the updates I listed happen to be mostly for Fedora 3, not Fedora 4. I compared some Fedora 4 releases the other day and shared them with this list and Fedora was ahead 90 percent of the time (out of about 10 recent release comparisons). Finally, after doing a ~x86 compare, I noticed that fedora-announce-list is slow to announce updates as most of the actual updates took place around the beginning of August by Redhat people. Not sure why that is. Paul -- Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
Paul Hoy wrote: My original email was 23/24 packages for x86. However, after reading your email, I compared the first 10 kde updates with ~x86 releases. It came out that Fedora was ahead 50 percent of the time or both distros shared the same release versions. In case I'm doing something incorrectly, you can also view the updates at http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/ Of course, this new comparison is between testing releases and so-called stable Fedora releases. There is a Fedora extras/unstable list (Fedora Core 4 Testing Updates) for that, but I don't receive that one. It also should be noted that the updates I listed happen to be mostly for Fedora 3, not Fedora 4. I compared some Fedora 4 releases the other day and shared them with this list and Fedora was ahead 90 percent of the time (out of about 10 recent release comparisons). Finally, after doing a ~x86 compare, I noticed that fedora-announce-list is slow to announce updates as most of the actual updates took place around the beginning of August by Redhat people. Not sure why that is. I'd be curious as to how long this remains the case. In the past I've seen binary distros leap ahead and they remain fairly up to date for a period of time after their initial release. As time progresses they fall behind and are unable to add software that requires newer core libs than the ones they shipped with or releases that are too different from the previous release. They continue falling further behind until the next major release and the cycle starts again. Assuming the above is correct outside my own experiences I'd trade short bursts of current packages with a 6-8 month reinstall for long term just shy of bleeding edge. Afterall the mail server that sent this started its life as Gentoo v1.2 three years ago. kashani -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
Hi, Paul Hoy wrote: On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 13:11 +1200, Nick Rout wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:58:54 -0400 Paul Hoy wrote: Coincidently, I received a bunch of Fedora 3 4 email updates earlier today, which shows that Gentoo is behind 23 out of 24 of the updates, some of them quite significantly. Most of them are KDE-related files, That confirms my thoughts (which i posted yesterday). So can you clarify, is that 23/24 packages are behind on x86 or on ~x86? i.e. would an ~x86 gentoo be ahead or behind fedora? Here also comes the question of how far behind as if it's a day or even a week that's nothing IMHO :p My original email was 23/24 packages for x86. However, after reading your email, I compared the first 10 kde updates with ~x86 releases. It came out that Fedora was ahead 50 percent of the time or both distros shared the same release versions. In case I'm doing something incorrectly, you can also view the updates at http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/ Of course, this new comparison is between testing releases and so-called stable Fedora releases. There is a Fedora extras/unstable list (Fedora Core 4 Testing Updates) for that, but I don't receive that one. It also should be noted that the updates I listed happen to be mostly for Fedora 3, not Fedora 4. I compared some Fedora 4 releases the other day and shared them with this list and Fedora was ahead 90 percent of the time (out of about 10 recent release comparisons). Finally, after doing a ~x86 compare, I noticed that fedora-announce-list is slow to announce updates as most of the actual updates took place around the beginning of August by Redhat people. Not sure why that is. Paul Another thing Fedora is still closely related with RedHat (a child of), so being a paid Distro they have more resources/people etc. Gentoo is made/supported by non-paid devs so there must be a difference after all. Still another thought - see Ubuntu's fast rise, made by having mostly Debian unstable/testing packages with some customizations. IMO newest not is always the best (depends on the perspective of course). When running a ~x86 for some 6-7 months sometimes (not very often) bumped on a Bug, which only hours at most a day/two afterwards was solved, so being on front line requires much more time/resources then a little behind. Just my thoughts. Rumen -- Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED] smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
Paul Hoy wrote: Hi all, This email isn't intended to troll, but to explore Linux variants that share certain characteristics. I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as Fedora, in terms of when it releases updates, etc. Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support the latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point-of-view? Does anyone wish to share a comparison of the two? Thanks all, Paul Hi Paul, Are we really far behind? That's difficult to believe. For what packages specifically? Do you know how to unmask unstable packages (marked M or M~ at packages.gentoo.org)? Zac -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sunday August 14 2005 2:42 pm, Paul Hoy wrote: Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support the latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point-of-view? Does anyone wish to share a comparison of the two? I've built both Gentoo and LFS. A side by side comparison comes up pretty much equal. Except for documentation, where Gentoo wins hands down. IMO googlegentoo=3,990,000 hits googlelfs=877,000 hits -jm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:05:22 -0500, Joe Menola wrote: I've built both Gentoo and LFS. A side by side comparison comes up pretty much equal. Except for documentation, where Gentoo wins hands down. IMO What about package management? -- Neil Bothwick Bother, said Pooh, as the media exposed his sexual depravity. pgp2gt2LL9QQM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:42:19 -0400, Paul Hoy wrote: I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as Fedora, in terms of when it releases updates, etc. Gentoo has rolling updates, so it is always up to date. If you want to run the latest of everything you will need to run a ~arch system. There are no releases for Gentoo beyond the installation live CDs. Once installed, provided you keep up to date, there is no difference between a system installed three years ago and one installed yesterday. -- Neil Bothwick Windows Error #09: Game Over. Exiting Windows. pgpu7Ej2whx5x.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sunday August 14 2005 4:22 pm, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:05:22 -0500, Joe Menola wrote: I've built both Gentoo and LFS. A side by side comparison comes up pretty much equal. Except for documentation, where Gentoo wins hands down. IMO What about package management? Good point, since LFS has none built in, I guess Gentoo wins here as well. -jm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:12:31 -0700 Zac Medico wrote: Hi Paul, Are we really far behind? That's difficult to believe. For what packages specifically? Do you know how to unmask unstable packages (marked M or M~ at packages.gentoo.org)? Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast through and through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it does not constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. Zac -- Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
Nick Rout schreef: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:12:31 -0700 Zac Medico wrote: Hi Paul, Are we really far behind? That's difficult to believe. For what packages specifically? Do you know how to unmask unstable packages (marked M or M~ at packages.gentoo.org)? Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast through and through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it does not constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. OK, I'll bite. What then do you consider a release of a recent version to be constituted from? If it's been released upstream, and it's in Portage a couple of hours later, so I can install it, I don't know what more you could want what, you want a Mandrake- (or worse, still, Debian) -style wait of months before you can use the upstream version? I'll grant you that it's sometimes a little bumpy... but then you might as well be running Slack or something (not that there's anything wrong with Slackware except the appalling package management). But since I have yet to find a problem I couldn't solve in a few minutes-- and if I couldn't, it was clearly a dev issue/b.g.o issue, where I could generally count on it to be solved within hours, if not prior to my discovery-- I really can't quite see what you're on about. What would be different in the Gentoo you envision? Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sunday August 14 2005 4:37 pm, Nick Rout wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:05:22 -0500 Joe Menola wrote: On Sunday August 14 2005 2:42 pm, Paul Hoy wrote: Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support the latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point-of-view? Does anyone wish to share a comparison of the two? I've built both Gentoo and LFS. A side by side comparison comes up pretty much equal. Except for documentation, where Gentoo wins hands down. IMO Well given that LFS is nothing but documentation ( along howto), that doesn't leave much... When an app doesn't compile, the 1 page howto doesn't help much, seeing as how you probably already followed it. -jm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sunday 21 August 2005 22:05, Jerry McBride wrote: What and where EXACTLY is gentoo behind any other release? gcc4 since fedora switched to gcc4, all the version-number-junkies got itchy. Is not too bad, if some of them go to fedora... -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sunday August 14 2005 4:38 pm, Nick Rout wrote: Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast through and through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it does not constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. Can you name any version of Linux where version upgrades go directly into stable? It's all about choice...the latest n greatest or tried n true. And that's how it is in any flavor of Linux I've tried, LFS included. -jm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
Holly Bostick wrote: What would be different in the Gentoo you envision? I'll bit too. ;-) On the gentoo-dev list I've heard talk of a QA feedback system so that users can report WORKSFORME on unstable packages. This will provide the data necessary to help know when packages should be marked stable. Zac -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:05 PM, Joe Menola wrote: On Sunday August 14 2005 2:42 pm, Paul Hoy wrote: Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support the latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point-of-view? Does anyone wish to share a comparison of the two? I've built both Gentoo and LFS. A side by side comparison comes up pretty much equal. Except for documentation, where Gentoo wins hands down. IMO googlegentoo=3,990,000 hits googlelfs=877,000 hits -jm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list Hi Joe, What about the LFS community - did you find it helpful? Of course, the answer is probably objective. Developer types may not have to rely so much on community whereas those who have the great capacity to take forever to understand the point, like myself, require a good community. Also, I agree with you that the Gentoo documentation (most of it) is excellent; I've printed, and have read most of it. One more question, and it's the most obvious. You said that Gentoo and LFS are more or less equal. So, that begs the question: what persuaded you to stick with Gentoo? Thanks , Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:33 PM, Joe Menola wrote: On Sunday August 14 2005 4:22 pm, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:05:22 -0500, Joe Menola wrote: I've built both Gentoo and LFS. A side by side comparison comes up pretty much equal. Except for documentation, where Gentoo wins hands down. IMO What about package management? Good point, since LFS has none built in, I guess Gentoo wins here as well. -jm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list Hi guys, Actually, BLFS has six different package management options. Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:38 PM, Nick Rout wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:12:31 -0700 Zac Medico wrote: Hi Paul, Are we really far behind? That's difficult to believe. For what packages specifically? Do you know how to unmask unstable packages (marked M or M~ at packages.gentoo.org)? Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast through and through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it does not constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. Zac -- Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list Hi Nick, Yup, I've unmasked a few packages .. openoffice_ximian, for instance. Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
See inline On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:51 PM, Holly Bostick wrote: Nick Rout schreef: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:12:31 -0700 Zac Medico wrote: Hi Paul, Are we really far behind? That's difficult to believe. For what packages specifically? Do you know how to unmask unstable packages (marked M or M~ at packages.gentoo.org)? Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast through and through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it does not constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. OK, I'll bite. What then do you consider a release of a recent version to be constituted from? I don't really understand your question. The most recent version to me coincides to a release date closest to whatever today is. If it's been released upstream, and it's in Portage a couple of hours later, so I can install it, I don't know what more you could want what, you want a Mandrake- (or worse, still, Debian) -style wait of months before you can use the upstream version? I don't agree with you. There are many examples where a file that has been released upstream has not found its way into Portage. I've provided examples elsewhere in this thread. You can also compare with the Fedora feedlist. I'll grant you that it's sometimes a little bumpy... but then you might as well be running Slack or something (not that there's anything wrong with Slackware except the appalling package management). I agree. I don't like like Slackware's package management either. But since I have yet to find a problem I couldn't solve in a few minutes-- and if I couldn't, it was clearly a dev issue/b.g.o issue, where I could generally count on it to be solved within hours, if not prior to my discovery-- I really can't quite see what you're on about. Perhaps you've pointed out the difference in perspectives and experience. I've run into a few problems where it has taken me longer than a merely few mintues to resolve a problem. I'm actually not on about anything. I'm interested in the differrences/similarities between LFC and Gentoo, which I stated in my original email. What would be different in the Gentoo you envision? Well, that's actually the question I'm asking. Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
Paul Hoy schreef: On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:24 PM, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:42:19 -0400, Paul Hoy wrote: I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as Fedora, in terms of when it releases updates, etc. Gentoo has rolling updates, so it is always up to date. If you want to run the latest of everything you will need to run a ~arch system. There are no releases for Gentoo beyond the installation live CDs. Once installed, provided you keep up to date, there is no difference between a system installed three years ago and one installed yesterday. -- Neil Bothwick Windows Error #09: Game Over. Exiting Windows. Hi Neil, ~arch is a little scary for me, since it's not in the stable branch. Paul Well, that's understandable, if that's the way you are, but you (generic) can't have it both ways. If you want the latest upstream release of whatever, it's not necessarily going to be stable... all newly-released software is subject to bugs that only come out with use of the kind that only freaky ol' users can conceive. No distribution marks anything stable until it's old enough to have been worked to death to get the bugs out. Which is fine. Nobody's making anybody use ~, and if you (generic) value stability, you're already used to waiting. It's true that there is a backlog of submitted ebuilds on b.g.o... some of them are perfectly stable (but just aren't in actual Portage yet), some need some help before they'll work properly (because the ebuild writer made some mistakes along the way). I've been following the taskjuggler b.g.o ebuild for a couple of months, and that just made it into Portage yesterday. But I've had taskjuggler for a couple of months (had to hack the ebuild to get it to compile). I'm looking forward to upgrading to the new ebuild to see if all of the kinks have been ironed out. Almost all Linux software is a constantly-evolving WIP, and conforming a WIP to a distribution which itself is a WIP is a big job. The only way it can succeed in terms of being considered temporarily stable is to freeze things at some point. RedHat (Fedora) and other binary distros do this themselves (you won't get thus-and-so version of X application until they've worked out the kinks between the app and the distro). Gentoo relies on you to do this for yourself. Mask all of unstable if that's how you want it (and wait for it to propagate down). Or unmask specific programs that you're willing to deal with some possible instability in order to 'keep up with the Joneses'. Or just live wild and run completely unstable (which usually works, but can go horribly, horribly wrong on occasion-- I still haven't gotten over the PAM debacle that ate my previous Gentoo install). It's up to you. It always is, with Gentoo... which is why I love it. But I don't so much see what there is to debate about-- your system is *yours*; run it the way you want. Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 6:35 PM, Neil Bothwick wrote:On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:38:28 +1200, Nick Rout wrote: Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast throughand through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it doesnot constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. They're not "unstable", they are "testing", and that only applies to theebuild itself, not the upstream package. If you want the latest versions,you need to run ~arch. Any distro that puts brand new packages (with theexception of security fixes) into its stable package tree has thrown allconcept of QA out of the window.-- Neil BothwickTop Oxymorons Number 30: Business ethics Hi Neil,Is there a way to explicitly search for ~arch releases or do I have set the ACCEPT_KEYWORDS variable in make.conf and hope for the best during emerge?PaulACCEPT_KEYWORDS variable
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 7:26 PM, Joe Menola wrote: On Sunday August 14 2005 5:43 pm, Paul Hoy wrote: On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:05 PM, Joe Menola wrote: On Sunday August 14 2005 2:42 pm, Paul Hoy wrote: Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support the latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point-of-view? Does anyone wish to share a comparison of the two? I've built both Gentoo and LFS. A side by side comparison comes up pretty much equal. Except for documentation, where Gentoo wins hands down. IMO googlegentoo=3,990,000 hits googlelfs=877,000 hits -jm Hi Joe, What about the LFS community - did you find it helpful? Of course, the answer is probably objective. Developer types may not have to rely so much on community whereas those who have the great capacity to take forever to understand the point, like myself, require a good community. Also, I agree with you that the Gentoo documentation (most of it) is excellent; I've printed, and have read most of it. One more question, and it's the most obvious. You said that Gentoo and LFS are more or less equal. So, that begs the question: what persuaded you to stick with Gentoo? Thanks , Paul The LFs community was very helpful, I couldn't have built a working system without them. :) I just find it easier when Goggle finds other documented problems that match mine. The size of the Gentoo user base makes this much more likely with Gentoo vs LFS. To answer the obvious...Gentoo is easier to build then LFS. LFS's style of package by package installing is great for learning the workings of Linux, and I wouldn't trade-in my experience with LFS for anything. Yes, that's what attracted me to Gentoo and to LFS/BLFS also: I'm interested in learning the inner workings of Linux. I've hacked around with Linux since the very early days of Redhat, but I still don't have a comprehensive understanding of the OS. This is despite that fact that I usually used tarballs rather than RPMs, even in Redhat and Fedora. But starting from scratch with LFS and obtaining a working Kde desktop took me (from memory) a few weeks to build. With Gentoo, I was there in a few days thanks to emerge kde-meta. Yeah, there were even some pre-compiled Linux distros in which it took a long time to get a Gnome desktop (vlos and foresight linux, for instance). Like you, it took me a few days to get a working Gnome desktop with Gentoo. -jm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list Thanks, Joe. This is the kind of conversation I was looking for. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 9:01 PM, Zac Medico wrote: Paul Hoy wrote: On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:24 PM, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:42:19 -0400, Paul Hoy wrote: I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as Fedora, in terms of when it releases updates, etc. Gentoo has rolling updates, so it is always up to date. If you want to run the latest of everything you will need to run a ~arch system. There are no releases for Gentoo beyond the installation live CDs. Once installed, provided you keep up to date, there is no difference between a system installed three years ago and one installed yesterday. -- Neil Bothwick Windows Error #09: Game Over. Exiting Windows. Hi Neil, ~arch is a little scary for me, since it's not in the stable branch. We, you do know that you can pick which ~arch packages you want, right? In most cases it's pretty safe to use a keyword masked package, especially if the masked package is not depended on by your core gentoo system. Zac -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list Hi Zac, Yes, I know how to unmask. But, when you say pick which ~arch packages..., does this mean I can search for ~arch packages too or do I have to set the ACCEPT_KEYWORDS variable? Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
Paul Hoy schreef: See inline On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:51 PM, Holly Bostick wrote: Nick Rout schreef: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:12:31 -0700 Zac Medico wrote: Hi Paul, Are we really far behind? That's difficult to believe. For what packages specifically? Do you know how to unmask unstable packages (marked M or M~ at packages.gentoo.org)? Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast through and through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it does not constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. OK, I'll bite. What then do you consider a release of a recent version to be constituted from? I don't really understand your question. The most recent version to me coincides to a release date closest to whatever today is. OK, so what you're saying is that an application's entry into Portage unstable does not constitute a 'release' of the package in Gentoo terms, as far as you're concerned? So until Firefox 1.0.6 and KDE 3.4.2 propagate down to stable (which could take time, admittedly), it's not actually released? Well, to each his or her own, I guess. If it's been released upstream, and it's in Portage a couple of hours later, so I can install it, I don't know what more you could want what, you want a Mandrake- (or worse, still, Debian) -style wait of months before you can use the upstream version? I don't agree with you. There are many examples where a file that has been released upstream has not found its way into Portage. I've provided examples elsewhere in this thread. You can also compare with the Fedora feedlist. Yes, I know. I'm creating a list of interesting programs I've discovered that aren't in Portage or b.g.o, to practice my ebuild writing skills. But you know, I don't give the first hairy hoot about the Fedora feedlist. This idea that 'marking' a package 'stable' is some kind of magic bullet that actually *makes* the package stable is starting to get on my nerves a bit. What Gentoo marks or doesn't mark the package, or in fact whether or not it's in Portage, generally has nothing to do with the status of the package itself. There are plenty of perfectly stable packages in Gentoo unstable, plenty of stable ebuilds (meaning that they compile the application correctly, and beyond that point it depends on the upstream stability) in b.g.o, and even a few on breakmygentoo.org. And plenty of 'stable' packages that just act wonky in various ways as upstream manages the changes in whatever they're doing (migrating to the freedesktop standard, implementing DirectX 9 support, working around video driver bugs, kernel bugs, scheduler changes, you name it). I use what I need, and I get what I need from wherever it may happen to be. Most of it comes from Portage, of course, but I've got some ebuilds in my overlay from b.g.o, a couple from Project Utopia, and some perl modules from cpan. It all works pretty well, and when it doesn't, I either ditch the package until it works a bit better, or fix it myself (and report what I had to do up the chain, if appropriate). It all looks a bit patchwork I suppose, but it's my patchwork, and so I know what sticky-out-bit goes where... most of the time. And I decide if there's going to be sticky-out-bits at all...there's no way, with an ATI card, that I'm going anywhere near the new modular X for quite a while, for example. But not because of Gentoo... because there's way too many upstream cooks for me to think they're going to concoct a 'stable' brew, *for me*, anytime soon. I said before and I do believe that the Gentoo dev team will do their very best (and that's damn good) to provide stable ebuilds that work as well as possible, but there's way too much whitewater flowing down the channel for me to believe that even they can successfully guide me through these difficult transitions. It just seems to me that if you want or expect a team of well-paid experts monitoring all possible inconveniences and smoothing them over before you even see them... well, then Fedora would be the place to be. Or SuSE. Gentoo or Ubuntu, on the other hand Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
Paul Hoy wrote: On Aug 14, 2005, at 6:35 PM, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:38:28 +1200, Nick Rout wrote: Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast through and through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it does not constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. They're not unstable, they are testing, and that only applies to the ebuild itself, not the upstream package. If you want the latest versions, you need to run ~arch. Any distro that puts brand new packages (with the exception of security fixes) into its stable package tree has thrown all concept of QA out of the window. -- Neil Bothwick Top Oxymorons Number 30: Business ethics Hi Neil, Is there a way to explicitly search for ~arch releases or do I have set the ACCEPT_KEYWORDS variable in make.conf and hope for the best during emerge? Paul *ACCEPT_KEYWORDS variable* You can export variables in the shell (not generally recommended) or put them directly on the command line. ACCEPT_KEYWORDS=~x86 emerge -s foo It's best to use /etc/portage/package.keywords to keep your package specific keywords (documented in the portage manpage). Zac -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 9:34 PM, Holly Bostick wrote: Paul Hoy schreef: See inline On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:51 PM, Holly Bostick wrote: Nick Rout schreef: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:12:31 -0700 Zac Medico wrote: Hi Paul, Are we really far behind? That's difficult to believe. For what packages specifically? Do you know how to unmask unstable packages (marked M or M~ at packages.gentoo.org)? Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast through and through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it does not constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. OK, I'll bite. What then do you consider a release of a recent version to be constituted from? I don't really understand your question. The most recent version to me coincides to a release date closest to whatever today is. OK, so what you're saying is that an application's entry into Portage unstable does not constitute a 'release' of the package in Gentoo terms, as far as you're concerned? So until Firefox 1.0.6 and KDE 3.4.2 propagate down to stable (which could take time, admittedly), it's not actually released? Well, to each his or her own, I guess. If it's been released upstream, and it's in Portage a couple of hours later, so I can install it, I don't know what more you could want what, you want a Mandrake- (or worse, still, Debian) -style wait of months before you can use the upstream version? I don't agree with you. There are many examples where a file that has been released upstream has not found its way into Portage. I've provided examples elsewhere in this thread. You can also compare with the Fedora feedlist. Yes, I know. I'm creating a list of interesting programs I've discovered that aren't in Portage or b.g.o, to practice my ebuild writing skills. But you know, I don't give the first hairy hoot about the Fedora feedlist. This idea that 'marking' a package 'stable' is some kind of magic bullet that actually *makes* the package stable is starting to get on my nerves a bit. It appears I may be contradicting myself, but I agree with you here. Fedora releases something as stable, but in some cases, it's far from it. NetworkManager is my favourite example. What Gentoo marks or doesn't mark the package, or in fact whether or not it's in Portage, generally has nothing to do with the status of the package itself. There are plenty of perfectly stable packages in Gentoo unstable, plenty of stable ebuilds (meaning that they compile the application correctly, and beyond that point it depends on the upstream stability) in b.g.o, and even a few on breakmygentoo.org. And plenty of 'stable' packages that just act wonky in various ways as upstream manages the changes in whatever they're doing (migrating to the freedesktop standard, implementing DirectX 9 support, working around video driver bugs, kernel bugs, scheduler changes, you name it). I use what I need, and I get what I need from wherever it may happen to be. Most of it comes from Portage, of course, but I've got some ebuilds in my overlay from b.g.o, a couple from Project Utopia, and some perl Yes, I've scanned over the instructions for creating your own ebuilds and I've experimented with the Gnome 2.12 beta ebuild put out by someone. modules from cpan. It all works pretty well, and when it doesn't, I either ditch the package until it works a bit better, or fix it myself (and report what I had to do up the chain, if appropriate). It all looks a bit patchwork I suppose, but it's my patchwork, and so I know what sticky-out-bit goes where... most of the time. And I decide if there's going to be sticky-out-bits at all...there's no way, with an ATI card, that I'm going anywhere near the new modular X for quite a while, for Yes, that is one of my great joys - having an ATI card on my Notebook. example. But not because of Gentoo... because there's way too many upstream cooks for me to think they're going to concoct a 'stable' brew, *for me*, anytime soon. I said before and I do believe that the Gentoo dev team will do their very best (and that's damn good) to provide stable ebuilds that work as well as possible, but there's way too much whitewater flowing down the channel for me to believe that even they can successfully guide me through these difficult transitions. It just seems to me that if you want or expect a team of well-paid experts monitoring all possible inconveniences and smoothing them over before you even see them... well, then Fedora would be the place to be. Or SuSE. Gentoo or Ubuntu, on the other hand Again, I don't think Fedora removes all the defects at all. SuSE doesn't either, at least for the Gnome desktop. And, believe it not, neither does Ubuntu, notably with packaging. Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sunday August 14 2005 8:48 pm, Zac Medico wrote: You can export variables in the shell (not generally recommended) or put them directly on the command line. ACCEPT_KEYWORDS=~x86 emerge -s foo It's best to use /etc/portage/package.keywords to keep your package specific keywords (documented in the portage manpage). From the wiki, a handy little scripts for doing this... http://gentoo-wiki.com/Masked#Script_for_.2Fetc.2Fportage.2Fpackage.keywords -jm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sun, 2005-08-14 at 18:48 -0700, Zac Medico wrote: Paul Hoy wrote: On Aug 14, 2005, at 6:35 PM, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:38:28 +1200, Nick Rout wrote: Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast through and through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it does not constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. They're not unstable, they are testing, and that only applies to the ebuild itself, not the upstream package. If you want the latest versions, you need to run ~arch. Any distro that puts brand new packages (with the exception of security fixes) into its stable package tree has thrown all concept of QA out of the window. -- Neil Bothwick Top Oxymorons Number 30: Business ethics Hi Neil, Is there a way to explicitly search for ~arch releases or do I have set the ACCEPT_KEYWORDS variable in make.conf and hope for the best during emerge? Paul *ACCEPT_KEYWORDS variable* You can export variables in the shell (not generally recommended) or put them directly on the command line. ACCEPT_KEYWORDS=~x86 emerge -s foo It's best to use /etc/portage/package.keywords to keep your package specific keywords (documented in the portage manpage). Zac Zac, Beauty. Just tried it and found some gnome updates. Very much appreciated. Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sun, 2005-08-14 at 20:55 -0500, Joe Menola wrote: On Sunday August 14 2005 8:48 pm, Zac Medico wrote: You can export variables in the shell (not generally recommended) or put them directly on the command line. ACCEPT_KEYWORDS=~x86 emerge -s foo It's best to use /etc/portage/package.keywords to keep your package specific keywords (documented in the portage manpage). From the wiki, a handy little scripts for doing this... http://gentoo-wiki.com/Masked#Script_for_.2Fetc.2Fportage.2Fpackage.keywords -jm Joe, Very cool. Took a look at it, and I'll try it out. Thanks again. Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
Jerry McBride [EMAIL PROTECTED] skribis: On Sunday 14 August 2005 06:06 pm, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: On Sunday 21 August 2005 22:05, Jerry McBride wrote: What and where EXACTLY is gentoo behind any other release? gcc4 since fedora switched to gcc4, all the version-number-junkies got itchy. Is not too bad, if some of them go to fedora... We must not be on the same page If you WANT gcc4 you can certainly have it in Gentoo. Another thing, too, and I don't know if this is the case with Fedora, but a binary distribution isn't necessarily all compiled with the installed compiler. It probably ought to be, but it doesn't have to be. A few adventurous individuals (not I) have been using gcc4 to build ~amd64 stuff and there are still some packages that give trouble. pgpgNxWbIucmh.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sun, Aug 14, 2005 at 03:42:19PM -0400, Paul Hoy wrote This email isn't intended to troll, but to explore Linux variants that share certain characteristics. I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as Fedora, in terms of when it releases updates, etc. Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support the latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point- of-view? Does anyone wish to share a comparison of the two? Look at it this way, if you're competent to build Linux-From-Scratch, you should have no problems whatsoever building from tarballs the few packages you can't find in Gentoo, and putting them in /usr/local or /opt. Heck, I was doing the... ./configure --with-various-options make make install schtick back in my Redhat days. -- Walter Dnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
