Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On 22 August 2013, at 17:08, hasufell wrote: … I was arguing from both sides. It is buggy, crashes a lot, consumes a lot of ressources and is able to slow down your whole desktop, mess with audio settings and whatnot. My granny never had these problems, using Skype on her PC. She uses it to chat to her cousin in Australia. Whatever your complaints about a messaging application, you offer no solution if you don't offer a way to communicate with users who are only capable of running a setup.exe, who have this tremendously popular and well-known application already installed. This network effect is not a new phenomenon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/23/13 13:21, Stroller wrote: On 22 August 2013, at 17:08, hasufell wrote: … I was arguing from both sides. It is buggy, crashes a lot, consumes a lot of ressources and is able to slow down your whole desktop, mess with audio settings and whatnot. My granny never had these problems, using Skype on her PC. I can assure you that skype consumes tremendous amount of ram. - -- Stop talking and start compiling. Linux user #557897 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSFy6dAAoJEK64IL1uI2hamMMH/36NLPW/NkoV69FX4f9udANS RsvGik6p1VJ4Cjbj/SGPn3ZkKYEeFQBTpUEiRgArg/TR1kNPldPfVHToXFATkCXq CjWKV5QgtOISJ91j0O4eOls1k2kgJBL66b1m+fV0ZIACGmpgaZCUfQh7n/CTYaKb fN7viGmnmMIh8pzM1bCH2UFX/+G/FFiaIZsaLYHmEoFkboRAy4VXpLMpmqzPOHX9 oYytSlq/WYoHhkzo0KBkZ54vUAdktitECXZnHqvBkWkEawoCXq9bV0Hpl0AEwQMN eYN5DcBauNfONO6fHqWTbzmDkfOM62BWWFLZ4nLvjvTGVbYJAM40u2VXJf2hrNE= =drLx -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
Well... Nowadays RAM is so cheap that this is really no issue. Most recent Computers ship at last with 4 GB so what the Heck. That aside, jitsi runs on Java and the Java vm is not really leightweight either. the the.gu...@mail.ru schrieb: My granny never had these problems, using Skype on her PC. I can assure you that skype consumes tremendous amount of ram.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/23/13 14:39, Marc Stürmer wrote: Well... Nowadays RAM is so cheap that this is really no issue. Most recent Computers ship at last with 4 GB so what the Heck. Does that mean that I should buy hardware to match software requirements? - -- Stop talking and start compiling. Linux user #557897 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSFz5xAAoJEK64IL1uI2hamssH/23LTCtcDoTc/OXYp/ghSFcg uw1CXuSt8Zx94D1Hda+cDbRCn12FR93QHjHKN0AgvfH+0lItC071WUVk+bJWuq/2 jDn17H8biCnU6y+J+AtJXzdrMPJa9CzdfdHAAgZgAucNKf94T1Urai+w+rvc1f7O PAuoQ/6K8F68ND65nexWItKnoi/r3em+5TljWqU3Z6fLMRUBtZoF9nrX9QPk+CqC EJJBMpR/q3k18YQIwC7ZQDSwkTbxUAXVGrgneCIO3AX4JJ2EtfyvIDXo36pj2nxV x1lOcWk+19wN1e3pX9aEfWBixZPU3VNMCvWuhXogJUpnaOcxenyFLD6zoalRZkk= =tB4t -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On 23.08.2013 14:50, the wrote: On 08/23/13 14:39, Marc Stürmer wrote: Well... Nowadays RAM is so cheap that this is really no issue. Most recent Computers ship at last with 4 GB so what the Heck. Does that mean that I should buy hardware to match software requirements? Has it ever been different? Do people buy servers just because those are millions $ worth? Do people buy top 3D adapters for the same reason? That doesn't imply whether this fact is good or bad. That is just the fact, and it's always been. -- Best wishes, Yuri K. Shatroff
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 14:50:27 +0400, the wrote: Does that mean that I should buy hardware to match software requirements? Hasn't that always been the case? What other reason would you have for buying hardware? The point is, Skype is there. no one is disputing that it is as buggy as hell, no one is claiming that it does not and will never have backdoors, but it works for a lot of people. If you want to talk to those people, you have no choice but to use Skype. - -- Neil Bothwick Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.21 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlIXQ64ACgkQum4al0N1GQP+cACgvWgcLiS/fjEYToJHJh7RmlYs +7UAnRx2SzJ3VCHHXhl9eAYXGE08YYp7 =km/x -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On 23.08.2013 13:42, the wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 08/23/13 13:21, Stroller wrote:
On 22 August 2013, at 17:08, hasufell wrote:
… I was arguing from both sides. It is buggy, crashes a lot,
consumes a lot of ressources and is able to slow down your whole
desktop, mess with audio settings and whatnot.
My granny never had these problems, using Skype on her PC.
I can assure you that skype consumes tremendous amount of ram.
Not defending Skype in any way, but tremendous is not calculable.
In these words, e.g. KDE consumes even more tremendous amounts. So what,
stop using KDE now?
As to bugs, don't think Skype has more bugs than KDE. Crashes, slowdowns
and UI troubles - KDE is plentiful with them. Stop using KDE now?
And it would be interesting to see a program (somewhat more complex than
printf('%s', 'Hello world'); ) which does not suffer from all these issues.
The main criterion of quality of software is whether it suits users'
needs. All that technical stuff is about talking. The user never sees
the code, rarely sees the resource utilization, and what he observes
most of the time is the result of using the software. If the user
manages to achieve his goal, the software is successful. If not, the
quality of code and UI and resource consumption matter nothing.
The advanced user will probably aim at minimizing RAM usage, improving
UI, opening the source code etc. but after all software quality is only
the users' perceived matching of expectations with results.
--
Best wishes,
Yuri K. Shatroff
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/23/13 15:10, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote: On 23.08.2013 14:50, the wrote: On 08/23/13 14:39, Marc Stürmer wrote: Well... Nowadays RAM is so cheap that this is really no issue. Most recent Computers ship at last with 4 GB so what the Heck. Does that mean that I should buy hardware to match software requirements? Has it ever been different? Do people buy servers just because those are millions $ worth? Do people buy top 3D adapters for the same reason? Well perhaps I'm not in a subset of people. Do you have a lot of friends who bought a personal server millions $ worth ? - -- Stop talking and start compiling. Linux user #557897 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSF0xDAAoJEK64IL1uI2haVaUH/304iRM4jHl17mIoXE/3JHuW pK+j4syR+2jrF8diVLZ2mSUxwDvAkzYfjRar1BIyt6OxZdU2XRSXS9ehb7gdTVHe Z3DbNPfjM2J5yZiK8SRFPslYIVrIR9V85+ZO0Razlri7yatDYNitYj3jRxPegH29 q2YXHR+9eB1hdCbKmooxyLthbTuFtghVaiTWX8Le3auIaQoSjpDdB3VD5hpg5/DC 0PTqkDtcB9xVxC/emu3EUK8oFBXOL38kzG2C00lRHV3tuDFir6F4t7T47zymnFSU c4uxBm+FHB16Zi9jwiNADvEO80OmvWjn9NmURAtOvLSohnUEtsktrYKs19skFks= =eVdv -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
No IT simply means that you are overwxaggerating the RAM usage and its importance a Lot. Most gentoo Users are Used to Compile their own Binaries. A Task which Uses quite some time, horse Power and RAM. Which means that the average computer running gentoo also should have enough Power to Run Skype. So once more again: RAM usage is no issue, Because most Computers Nowadays have Got much more than needed anyway. And on running instance of firefox probably Uses much more RAM After running some time than Skype does anyway. There are issues, in you are being concerned e.g. About your privacy. But that is a Very Different kind of issue Indeed. Am 23.08.2013 12:50 schrieb the the.gu...@mail.ru: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/23/13 14:39, Marc Stürmer wrote: Well... Nowadays RAM is so cheap that this is really no issue. Most recent Computers ship at last with 4 GB so what the Heck. Does that mean that I should buy hardware to match software requirements? - -- Stop talking and start compiling. Linux user #557897 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSFz5xAAoJEK64IL1uI2hamssH/23LTCtcDoTc/OXYp/ghSFcg uw1CXuSt8Zx94D1Hda+cDbRCn12FR93QHjHKN0AgvfH+0lItC071WUVk+bJWuq/2 jDn17H8biCnU6y+J+AtJXzdrMPJa9CzdfdHAAgZgAucNKf94T1Urai+w+rvc1f7O PAuoQ/6K8F68ND65nexWItKnoi/r3em+5TljWqU3Z6fLMRUBtZoF9nrX9QPk+CqC EJJBMpR/q3k18YQIwC7ZQDSwkTbxUAXVGrgneCIO3AX4JJ2EtfyvIDXo36pj2nxV x1lOcWk+19wN1e3pX9aEfWBixZPU3VNMCvWuhXogJUpnaOcxenyFLD6zoalRZkk= =tB4t -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On 23/08/2013 15:18, Marc Stürmer wrote: No IT simply means that you are overwxaggerating the RAM usage and its importance a Lot. Most gentoo Users are Used to Compile their own Binaries. A Task which Uses quite some time, horse Power and RAM. Which means that the average computer running gentoo also should have enough Power to Run Skype. So once more again: RAM usage is no issue, Because most Computers Nowadays have Got much more than needed anyway. And on running instance of firefox probably Uses much more RAM After running some time than Skype does anyway. There are issues, in you are being concerned e.g. About your privacy. But that is a Very Different kind of issue Indeed. tr 'A-Z' 'a-z' I think your keyboard is broken. Your Shift key is doing odd things and typing CAPS when you obviously didn't intend it to Am 23.08.2013 12:50 schrieb the the.gu...@mail.ru mailto:the.gu...@mail.ru: On 08/23/13 14:39, Marc Stürmer wrote: Well... Nowadays RAM is so cheap that this is really no issue. Most recent Computers ship at last with 4 GB so what the Heck. Does that mean that I should buy hardware to match software requirements? -- Alan McKinnon Systems Engineer^W Technician Infrastructure Services Internet Solutions +27 11 575 7585 -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 08/23/13 15:25, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote:
On 23.08.2013 13:42, the wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1
On 08/23/13 13:21, Stroller wrote:
On 22 August 2013, at 17:08, hasufell wrote:
… I was arguing from both sides. It is buggy, crashes a lot,
consumes a lot of ressources and is able to slow down your
whole desktop, mess with audio settings and whatnot.
My granny never had these problems, using Skype on her PC.
I can assure you that skype consumes tremendous amount of ram.
Not defending Skype in any way, but tremendous is not calculable.
In these words, e.g. KDE consumes even more tremendous amounts. So
what, stop using KDE now?
That's what I did.
As to bugs, don't think Skype has more bugs than KDE. Crashes,
slowdowns and UI troubles - KDE is plentiful with them. Stop using
KDE now? And it would be interesting to see a program (somewhat
more complex than printf('%s', 'Hello world'); ) which does not
suffer from all these issues. The main criterion of quality of
software is whether it suits users' needs. All that technical
stuff is about talking. The user never sees the code, rarely sees
the resource utilization, and what he observes most of the time is
the result of using the software. If the user manages to achieve
his goal, the software is successful. If not, the quality of code
and UI and resource consumption matter nothing. The advanced user
will probably aim at minimizing RAM usage, improving UI, opening
the source code etc. but after all software quality is only the
users' perceived matching of expectations with results.
- --
Stop talking and start compiling.
Linux user #557897
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
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Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
Am 23.08.2013 15:21, schrieb Alan McKinnon: tr 'A-Z' 'a-z' I think your keyboard is broken. Your Shift key is doing odd things and typing CAPS when you obviously didn't intend More like of my virtual keyboard on my smartphone, anyways... nice to be back on my real keyboard once more again. Yeah.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
Am 23.08.2013 12:50, schrieb the: Does that mean that I should buy hardware to match software requirements? Do you really want to tell me that you are still working on a Pentium 133 with maybe 64 MB of RAM? I mean it has always been like that: people buy indeed hardware to match software requirements, e.g. to play better games or to watch Youtube videos in High Definition. Of course no one is going to force you to do so, so if you are happy with less power you need less, of course. The point for Skype, last time I am going to repeat that, is that it works out of the box for the normal user and the large user base. You need no bachelor in computer sciences to set it up and get it running, even your proverbial grandma in mind is able to do that. And that's what 99% of Skype frankly care about at all: that it works that way. They don't really care about nerdy themes like bugs, privacy concerns, backdoors, whatever - it works for them good enough, cheap and reliable and that's what's counts at all. So if you really want a piece of software to replace Skype, it depends on your goals: just for talking over the internet you can take a VoIP-program like Ekiga and so on. But if you want to replace Skype with something better, you first need to recognize why it got so popular in first place and make something even better for its user base. Or - another way - just buy the company behind it. And in modern times like ours I personally and frankly think that telling OMFG Skype uses so much RAM is not really something most people care about anymore at all. I mean, even really cheap computers you can buy today, have at last around 4 GB of RAM, being a multitude of RAM being necessary to run Skype smoothly. And because most Gentoo users are being used to compile their own stuff (until they use Sabayon), their computers are normally being far from underpowered. Of course, if you do care about it - don't use it, it is that simple. But don't expect the rest of it to share your point of view and do it likewise. For normal users it is like: all software sucks and they tend to use that piece of software which sucks less for them. If their favorite piece of software starts to suck more, then they are going to another piece of software, but not before.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On 08/23/2013 05:48 PM, Marc Stürmer wrote: Am 23.08.2013 12:50, schrieb the: Does that mean that I should buy hardware to match software requirements? Do you really want to tell me that you are still working on a Pentium 133 with maybe 64 MB of RAM? I mean it has always been like that: people buy indeed hardware to match software requirements, e.g. to play better games or to watch Youtube videos in High Definition. Of course no one is going to force you to do so, so if you are happy with less power you need less, of course. The point for Skype, last time I am going to repeat that, is that it works out of the box for the normal user and the large user base. And that is still wrong. If it works for you, fine. There are enough users who have a LOT of trouble with it. Again: read the bugtrackers, I do. And even better: you cannot file bug reports properly (at least from what I see the skype jira is gone) and cannot read/fix code. You are lured into believing it's a good piece of software that works out of the box, because all they do is good advertisement and increasing their userbase with some shiny features. Even worse: distro maintainers have trouble with it, need to apply hacks or don't even include it at all because of the nasty license. How does that improve out-of-the-box experience? Next you will tell us windows works out of the box. I mean, wtf are you talking about? It doesn't make any sense. And doesn't even add anything to this topic.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/23/13 19:48, Marc Stürmer wrote: Am 23.08.2013 12:50, schrieb the: Does that mean that I should buy hardware to match software requirements? Do you really want to tell me that you are still working on a Pentium 133 with maybe 64 MB of RAM? left my celeron 566 MHz 256 ram 2 years ago (couldn't run gnome, emacs and firefox at the same time). currently using 1.2 GHz x2 p3, 1,5 Gb ram w/ gentoo. I work, play games (it's sometimes sad that I can't enjoy videos marked for mobile devices though). I think that skypes takes too much ram _to accomplish its task_. - -- Stop talking and start compiling. Linux user #557897 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSF5FqAAoJEK64IL1uI2haIg0H/jHcrKBg51yUixwNaQpIzimj 7S/yH//d4ddMKQTHpflyCxNhXnoC9EzqjyYTloffQUDk2nNkqmH3O6M5vPDRIZBu kPEQSYVL1cHZqz+xA7qcLyQw6W9MgRvJ7SAmTKnzgBPaA2ZNMuNeLPn1wrpviXW3 WXpYmT5ZfTFBO1GWc3hKnHjztvhNiS2fVm+uPCHf24jmOnzwUIG6ei2sYEWBLYc2 R57JPjW+5DZVSRG3zPtQ8+SJ0QlKJ3AnnZouvdkSOtbnlgzja3802G4TUNGROmNv yJB8zUZH3d7I70v39wMsWngfIvP2Io4H6fGthaFT+hAiW1nIlg+p+/KO0nL/fyA= =sP3I -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On 23.08.2013 19:58, hasufell wrote: On 08/23/2013 05:48 PM, Marc Stürmer wrote: Am 23.08.2013 12:50, schrieb the: [ ... ] The point for Skype, last time I am going to repeat that, is that it works out of the box for the normal user and the large user base. And that is still wrong. If it works for you, fine. There are enough users who have a LOT of trouble with it. Again: read the bugtrackers, I do. (Again, I'm not a skypodefender in any way) Please recommend us a bugtracker for an actively developing software which has, well, considerably fewer bugs. (Add to this: multiplatform, multiuser, network-based etc) And even better: you cannot file bug reports properly (at least from what I see the skype jira is gone) and cannot read/fix code. You are lured into believing it's a good piece of software that works out of the box, because all they do is good advertisement and increasing their userbase with some shiny features. Even worse: distro maintainers have trouble with it, need to apply hacks or don't even include it at all because of the nasty license. How does that improve out-of-the-box experience? Your view is simply different from the view of most software users. A good piece of software for them is not what is well-coded or well-maintained or well-licensed or well-whatever. All they need is matching their expectations. You may be 146% correct about troubles and hacks but this doesn't change the average joe's expectations. And yes, in most situations skype does work out-of-the-box. Sad, but true. Next you will tell us windows works out of the box. It does, in most situations. Sad, but true. I mean, wtf are you talking about? It doesn't make any sense. And doesn't even add anything to this topic. That's all about off-topic. But not acknowledging the truth doesn't add anything either. Do people hate Windows or other proprietary stuff because of its bugs? Or because of its not working OOTB? In my experience, I'd probably number a thousand more times of open-source software not working OOTB and being buggy than Windows/etc. But I still adhere to OSS. I don't think that having an 'ideal' piece of proprietary software would change an open-source adept's mind towards PS. But neither I think that emphasizing PS' problems which are common to all software will help people turn to the open-source side. -- Best wishes, Yuri K. Shatroff
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On 08/23/2013 08:09 PM, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote: On 23.08.2013 19:58, hasufell wrote: On 08/23/2013 05:48 PM, Marc Stürmer wrote: Am 23.08.2013 12:50, schrieb the: [ ... ] The point for Skype, last time I am going to repeat that, is that it works out of the box for the normal user and the large user base. And that is still wrong. If it works for you, fine. There are enough users who have a LOT of trouble with it. Again: read the bugtrackers, I do. (Again, I'm not a skypodefender in any way) Please recommend us a bugtracker for an actively developing software which has, well, considerably fewer bugs. (Add to this: multiplatform, multiuser, network-based etc) I was talking about crash and segfault bugs in specific. Check the xfce bug tracker if you need an example for a rather well maintained piece of software compared to skype. And even better: you cannot file bug reports properly (at least from what I see the skype jira is gone) and cannot read/fix code. You are lured into believing it's a good piece of software that works out of the box, because all they do is good advertisement and increasing their userbase with some shiny features. Even worse: distro maintainers have trouble with it, need to apply hacks or don't even include it at all because of the nasty license. How does that improve out-of-the-box experience? Your view is simply different from the view of most software users. A good piece of software for them is not what is well-coded or well-maintained or well-licensed or well-whatever. All they need is matching their expectations. You may be 146% correct about troubles and hacks but this doesn't change the average joe's expectations. And yes, in most situations skype does work out-of-the-box. Sad, but true. Repeating it and ignoring the troubles people have throughout distro forums and bug trackers will not help you prove your point. Next you will tell us windows works out of the box. It does, in most situations. Sad, but true. That is simply not true. It doesn't even come with most of the needed hardware drivers. There is almost nothing pre-installed. Getting programs is complicated. It seems to me you don't really understand what out of the box means. I mean, wtf are you talking about? It doesn't make any sense. And doesn't even add anything to this topic. That's all about off-topic. But not acknowledging the truth doesn't add anything either. Do people hate Windows or other proprietary stuff because of its bugs? Or because of its not working OOTB? In my experience, I'd probably number a thousand more times of open-source software not working OOTB and being buggy than Windows/etc. But I still adhere to OSS. I don't think that having an 'ideal' piece of proprietary software would change an open-source adept's mind towards PS. But neither I think that emphasizing PS' problems which are common to all software will help people turn to the open-source side. opensource often sucks if there is no one professionally working on it, as in: get's money
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 08:59:07AM +0200, Jean-Christophe Bach wrote: Well, it depends on what you call a replacement: Jitsi and Ekiga can do the work as well as Skype, but not with the Skype protocol and network. But if your contacts do not care about it, it's ok. I tried Jitsi last year after the FOSDEM, but it was too much buggy. I tried again this year (after the FOSDEM again), and I think it si now usable. You can also try Ekiga which is also usable on other OS. With both of these pieces of software, the main problem when moving from Skype is to change your buddies' habits :\ Regards, JC Thanks everyone for the explanation of why jitsi isn't in the tree. That makes sense now. I'm going to try ekiga and linphone. I guess there aren't a lot of options right now. Randy
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
Am 20.08.2013 17:12, schrieb Randy Westlund: For a multitude of reasons, I'd like to get rid of skype. I've heard several people mention jitsi, but was surprised to find that it's not in the portage tree. Well, there's always been something being called a Skype killer over the last few years, but no program really killed it. Even now no program is going to really kill Skype. And why not? Because most users just want a program that works right out of the box for them without problems and Skype is just that. It went great lengths to achieve this goal.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On 08/22/2013 05:49 PM, Marc Stürmer wrote: And why not? Because most users just want a program that works right out of the box for them without problems and Skype is just that. It went great lengths to achieve this goal. You probably missed those hundreds of bugs we devs and also users were faced with, including linkage against non-existing sonames, random crashes and breakage when the binary is stripped. So this is somewhat wrong information. It's like saying windows works right out of the box without problems.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
Am 22.08.2013 17:58, schrieb hasufell: You probably missed those hundreds of bugs we devs and also users were faced with, including linkage against non-existing sonames, random crashes and breakage when the binary is stripped. So this is somewhat wrong information. It's like saying windows works right out of the box without problems. I am not arguing from the admin site of Skype; I am arguing from the user side. You can install Skype almost whereever you want, behind a NAT-Router, Firewall, whatever, it just works. That's why it is so popular. Try the same with Ekiga and you got probably tons of troubles.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On 08/22/2013 06:05 PM, Marc Stürmer wrote: Am 22.08.2013 17:58, schrieb hasufell: You probably missed those hundreds of bugs we devs and also users were faced with, including linkage against non-existing sonames, random crashes and breakage when the binary is stripped. So this is somewhat wrong information. It's like saying windows works right out of the box without problems. I am not arguing from the admin site of Skype; I am arguing from the user side. I was arguing from both sides. It is buggy, crashes a lot, consumes a lot of ressources and is able to slow down your whole desktop, mess with audio settings and whatnot.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
Am 22.08.2013 18:08, schrieb hasufell: I was arguing from both sides. It is buggy, crashes a lot, consumes a lot of ressources and is able to slow down your whole desktop, mess with audio settings and whatnot. Well, your opinion. In my opinion the ease of use out of the box for the end user is Skype's biggest selling point why it got so popular and no competitor has reached that yet.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On 08/22/2013 06:11 PM, Marc Stürmer wrote: Am 22.08.2013 18:08, schrieb hasufell: I was arguing from both sides. It is buggy, crashes a lot, consumes a lot of ressources and is able to slow down your whole desktop, mess with audio settings and whatnot. Well, your opinion. Proven by bug reports. Search the distro bug trackers for skype crash and skype segfault. I am unable to find the upstream bugtracker, they have probably shut it down, because they are unable to deal with the amount of bugs coming in and want to prevent a bad image.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
* the the.gu...@mail.ru [21.08.2013. @09:35:09 +0400]: On 08/20/13 19:12, Randy Westlund wrote: For a multitude of reasons, I'd like to get rid of skype. I've heard several people mention jitsi, but was surprised to find that it's not in the portage tree. Is jitsi being actively maintained in an overlay somewhere? Are there plans to put jitsi in the main tree? Are there other other good alternatives to skype that are supported on gentoo? What do you guys use? Bear in mind that there's no free replacement for skype. Well, it depends on what you call a replacement: Jitsi and Ekiga can do the work as well as Skype, but not with the Skype protocol and network. But if your contacts do not care about it, it's ok. I tried Jitsi last year after the FOSDEM, but it was too much buggy. I tried again this year (after the FOSDEM again), and I think it si now usable. You can also try Ekiga which is also usable on other OS. With both of these pieces of software, the main problem when moving from Skype is to change your buddies' habits :\ Regards, JC signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am Wed, 21 Aug 2013 09:35:09 +0400 schrieb the the.gu...@mail.ru: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/20/13 19:12, Randy Westlund wrote: For a multitude of reasons, I'd like to get rid of skype. I've heard several people mention jitsi, but was surprised to find that it's not in the portage tree. Is jitsi being actively maintained in an overlay somewhere? Are there plans to put jitsi in the main tree? Are there other other good alternatives to skype that are supported on gentoo? What do you guys use? Bear in mind that there's no free replacement for skype. Heise (used to be The H in English) recently mentioned Tox: http://tox.im/. If you can read German (or even if you can't, just to check the links), their articles are: http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Skype-Alternative-Tox-einfach-verschluesselt-dezentral-1926996.html http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Skype-Alternative-Tox-zum-Ausprobieren-1929033.html However, it's a very new project and the status is AFAIU you can try it, but don't rely on it just yet. Looking at the build instructions, a Gentoo ebuild ought to be be fairly easy. Oh, and not to mention Mumble, which it seems more and more people are using instead of Skype in the specific situations where it makes sense (conference calls and such). HTH - -- Marc Joliet - -- People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we don't - Bjarne Stroustrup -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlIUicEACgkQBsMBz3L8+WOkdQCfV8dGgEiW9liRqyKrl3PK8Pkt wyQAn1LDpPmOKc0JUXBL+6uU8tRPNVm+ =qR3j -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On 08/20/2013 05:12 PM, Randy Westlund wrote: I've heard several people mention jitsi, but was surprised to find that it's not in the portage tree. Jitsi is written in java and thus by design buggy, bloated and hard to maintain. If you care a lot, you can propose it in sunrise user overlay and I will accept precompiled java packages there. Join #gentoo-sunrise and try to avoid random overlays. They have caused lots of trouble for our users in the past, because there is no one to review the ebuild most of the time and there is even less protection against overlays who mess with system packages and thus might break a LOT of things, partly because they have no idea what they are doing and partly because they have no access to profiles/ in gx86 and cannot coordinate any delicate changes.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
* hasufell hasuf...@gentoo.org [21.08.2013. @16:48:10 +0200]: On 08/20/2013 05:12 PM, Randy Westlund wrote: I've heard several people mention jitsi, but was surprised to find that it's not in the portage tree. Jitsi is written in java and thus by design buggy, bloated and hard to maintain. What a categorical opinion! Developers are writing code and are making bugs, whatever the language they use. I am pretty sure I am able to write buggy, bloated and hard to maintain with Haskell, Ada, Java or any other language… It is really easy to criticize the programming language instead of reviewing the development methods. The main problem of writing an ebuild for a Java application comes from bad habits in the Java world: people are usually distributing all libraries and the program in a big ball of mud. It is great for Windows users or for users who do not use a real packages manager, but it needs lot of work to have clean packages. Regards, JC signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On 08/21/2013 05:59 PM, Jean-Christophe Bach wrote: * hasufell hasuf...@gentoo.org [21.08.2013. @16:48:10 +0200]: On 08/20/2013 05:12 PM, Randy Westlund wrote: I've heard several people mention jitsi, but was surprised to find that it's not in the portage tree. Jitsi is written in java and thus by design buggy, bloated and hard to maintain. What a categorical opinion! Developers are writing code and are making bugs, whatever the language they use. I am pretty sure I am able to write buggy, bloated and hard to maintain with Haskell, Ada, Java or any other language… It is really easy to criticize the programming language instead of reviewing the development methods. The main problem of writing an ebuild for a Java application comes from bad habits in the Java world: people are usually distributing all libraries and the program in a big ball of mud. It is great for Windows users or for users who do not use a real packages manager, but it needs lot of work to have clean packages. Regards, JC The average java application is buggy, bloated and hard to maintain. And that is a fact you have to realize as a distributor. The programming language java is another topic and it sucks too, but yes... you might be able to write non-buggy code.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On Wednesday 21 August 2013 18:17:53 hasufell wrote: The average java application is buggy, bloated and hard to maintain. And that is a fact you have to realize as a distributor. Okay, then do you consider Jitsi average or not? I'm about to try it.
[gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
For a multitude of reasons, I'd like to get rid of skype. I've heard several people mention jitsi, but was surprised to find that it's not in the portage tree. Is jitsi being actively maintained in an overlay somewhere? Are there plans to put jitsi in the main tree? Are there other other good alternatives to skype that are supported on gentoo? What do you guys use? Randy
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/20/13 19:12, Randy Westlund wrote: For a multitude of reasons, I'd like to get rid of skype. Fun fact. When I installed Syser (mustdie kernel debugger), Skype began to complain about it. - -- Stop talking and start compiling. Linux user #557897 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSE5haAAoJEK64IL1uI2haItMIAJLF+akTHfyiupahE83uaq4S bVQfAfZwMRSUQFWLbSfgRCLDZNk6EcavD+ZuuOMEsGM38aQTUPtj3UbS/Soy4k1n NNAQkR3cFIK6m/QX0BhBA8fm2evQXJ8A+LDkwtd94jomnVym9Jzm09w1JjvQXXDz mWd9uT/a+FtXqt8nHqEcVOTIaHDmR4QFK4jgwrHs65o7+xZvSnkIMLhKj2oetPn8 Pb+9NVZa2YQpIIi4am19rIEoMPuGikb+RI+suU5FOu6EoZ/nPPHNF4B9vu5wTx3v lvdcvT7Z5sq5nvrS6ntIX3xi+X7vb8PK3ETpFmJR3OnwwPDuvyrErzCwKfZmk1Q= =B5x2 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
On Tuesday 20 August 2013 11:12:32 Randy Westlund wrote: For a multitude of reasons, I'd like to get rid of skype. I've heard several people mention jitsi, but was surprised to find that it's not in the portage tree. Is jitsi being actively maintained in an overlay somewhere? Are there plans to put jitsi in the main tree? There's jitsi in overlay (I forgot which). It can't be accepted into tree yet because it needs to be stripped of bundled libraries and not all of them are in tree. So the maintainer would have to add those to tree as well. It's a lot of work and no one has volunteered yet. Find the jitsi bug on bugs.gentoo.org for more info.
Re: [gentoo-user] Jitsi or Other Skype Alternative
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/20/13 19:12, Randy Westlund wrote: For a multitude of reasons, I'd like to get rid of skype. I've heard several people mention jitsi, but was surprised to find that it's not in the portage tree. Is jitsi being actively maintained in an overlay somewhere? Are there plans to put jitsi in the main tree? Are there other other good alternatives to skype that are supported on gentoo? What do you guys use? Bear in mind that there's no free replacement for skype. - -- Stop talking and start compiling. Linux user #557897 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSFFGLAAoJEK64IL1uI2har5kH+wVnNsYD1bvFldjh6hePapvs mX/HDVu8EoMXG909vRf64KbE64BO7Fuw3DeNeZxkCzKHAW0O7FlZ+Nv0rtTk0FeT +3YPOZU9/w4GEZCpyQThHQLyoQJp4oBtyMMfO7z/uZrmTWwosQPbtgQhHZ1OEfV7 m5wTEXedFpULpkq08gUpqZ5pZE7lKglKPa+3KykUt4dPzEenL5QtCeOhY7uspNzE C//qNzeCCg4ZxC4irgxPfV/PFlf88h2hWoegSqolFqgJqZ4/QVGAJsSv5MJllIwD AZgtyGIZaBGHsr6IzdL1KmqluoGMRVnRe0pTYEg5S2CQkpeBC6Hq+g6axwva9ME= =KOUO -END PGP SIGNATURE-
