Re: [gentoo-user] Re: tabbed x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
On 10/11/11 13:58, Francesco Talamona wrote: On Sunday 09 October 2011, Michael Orlitzky wrote: On 10/09/11 13:53, Alan McKinnon wrote: For rxvt, a suitable flag name would be plugins Or if there were some package-specific documentation that said, perl: enable the following plugins (written in perl): tabs, transparency, etc. In fact, that would be my favorite solution. How would you call the flag in this case? If there's documentation telling you what the flag does, you can call it Nancy for all I care. It's the combination I have a problem with: a) ambiguous flag name b) no documentation c) the flag enables basic functionality (tabs, in this case)
[gentoo-user] Re: tabbed x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
On Tuesday 11 October 2011, Peter Humphrey wrote: On Saturday 08 October 2011 19:43:53 Michael Orlitzky wrote: I'm going to start a bug-filing campaign against packages like this some day. The only description we ever get for use flag foo is 'enable support for foo', which doesn't tell you anything at all about how it affects a given package. I did file a bug a year or two ago about the almost uselessness of USE flag descriptions. It caused a flurry of activity in quite a few packages, but conspicuous silence in the rest. Needless to say, the activity soon died away and the status quo resumed. Programmers are not writers of English, by and large. Do you remember the bug id? Cheers Francesco -- Linux Version 3.0.6-gentoo, Compiled #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Oct 8 20:18:59 CEST 2011 Two 1GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 Processors, 4GB RAM, 4019.26 Bogomips Total aemaeth
[gentoo-user] Re: tabbed x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
On Saturday 08 October 2011, Michael Orlitzky wrote: On 10/08/11 15:09, Francesco Talamona wrote: I'm not going to complain, though I'm willing to point out (e.g. commenting on relevant bug reports) that some packages are affected in a bad way by this move. Comment here? The devs are still CCed even though it's closed: https://bugs.gentoo.org/250179 To be honest I didn't look for a solution in b.g.o because it was straightforward; even if not so manifest for me the link between the perl flag and the ability for rxvt to run tabbed (given that it doesn't give an error). I don't want to be blunt, but your plan looks to me quite vague. My opinion is that some packages should have a different default. That bug is for adding IUSE defaults, rather than removing the flag. Added a brief comment, let's see developers' reaction. Francesco -- Linux Version 3.0.6-gentoo, Compiled #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Oct 8 20:18:59 CEST 2011 Two 1GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 Processors, 4GB RAM, 4019.26 Bogomips Total aemaeth
[gentoo-user] Re: tabbed x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
On Sunday 09 October 2011, Michael Orlitzky wrote: On 10/09/11 13:53, Alan McKinnon wrote: For rxvt, a suitable flag name would be plugins Or if there were some package-specific documentation that said, perl: enable the following plugins (written in perl): tabs, transparency, etc. In fact, that would be my favorite solution. How would you call the flag in this case? Regards Francesco -- Linux Version 3.0.6-gentoo, Compiled #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Oct 8 20:18:59 CEST 2011 Two 1GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 Processors, 4GB RAM, 4019.26 Bogomips Total aemaeth
[gentoo-user] Re: tabbed x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
On Saturday 08 October 2011, Michael Orlitzky wrote: On 10/08/11 15:09, Francesco Talamona wrote: I'm not going to complain, though I'm willing to point out (e.g. commenting on relevant bug reports) that some packages are affected in a bad way by this move. Comment here? The devs are still CCed even though it's closed: https://bugs.gentoo.org/250179 To be honest I didn't look for a solution in b.g.o because it was straightforward; even if not so manifest for me the link between the perl flag and the ability for rxvt to run tabbed (given that it doesn't give an error). I don't want to be blunt, but your plan looks to me quite vague. My opinion is that some packages should have a different default. That bug is for adding IUSE defaults, rather than removing the flag. https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=250179#c16 https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=386827 Cheers Francesco -- Linux Version 3.0.6-gentoo, Compiled #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Oct 8 20:18:59 CEST 2011 Two 1GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 Processors, 4GB RAM, 4019.26 Bogomips Total aemaeth
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: tabbed x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
AM USE=perl tells you squat, you don't even know what effect it will AM have. You'd have to read the ebuild and the source to figure that out. AM A MUCH better name is USE=tabs with a description like this Provide AM multiple tabs, requires perl. No, that is not a better name for the USE flag. Anyone who has read the docs for rxvt-unicode knows that the perl extension is just that, an *extension*. It is perfectly valid to configure rxvt-unicode with --disable-perl. And on some smaller boxen it may even be necessary. (Sometimes conserving ram is more important than extra functionality.) perl is the right USE flag for rxvt-unciode, and should remain a USE flag. It enables much more functionality than just the tabbed extension, but does so at an expense. An expense which is easily noticed on smaller boxen. -JimC -- James Cloos cl...@jhcloos.com OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: tabbed x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 12:48:09 -0400 James Cloos cl...@jhcloos.com wrote: AM USE=perl tells you squat, you don't even know what effect it AM will have. You'd have to read the ebuild and the source to figure AM that out. AM A MUCH better name is USE=tabs with a description like this AM Provide multiple tabs, requires perl. No, that is not a better name for the USE flag. Anyone who has read the docs for rxvt-unicode knows that the perl extension is just that, an *extension*. It is perfectly valid to configure rxvt-unicode with --disable-perl. And on some smaller boxen it may even be necessary. (Sometimes conserving ram is more important than extra functionality.) perl is the right USE flag for rxvt-unciode, and should remain a USE flag. It enables much more functionality than just the tabbed extension, but does so at an expense. An expense which is easily noticed on smaller boxen. Fair enough. I suspected the flag might enable plugins and considered finding out what it actually does. But I didn't bother because I don't use rxvt myself and that specific wasn't the point of my post anyway. I still maintain the perl is not a good name for that flag. It does not describe what the flag accomplishes, it describes an implementation detail of how it is used. USE=perl communicates very little; it might communicate a lot to you if you know the guts of the app, but very little to the casual observer wanting to find out what rxvt is. I run into this kind of thing all the time, and not just with USE flags, it's endemic amongst coders. The problem is best described like so high level description should expose what your code does, not how it does it. I understand why coders make this kind of mistake - expediency. It's easier to re-use the existing perl flag than to make a whole new one in use.local.desc For rxvt, a suitable flag name would be plugins -- Alan McKinnnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: tabbed x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
On 10/09/11 13:53, Alan McKinnon wrote: For rxvt, a suitable flag name would be plugins Or if there were some package-specific documentation that said, perl: enable the following plugins (written in perl): tabs, transparency, etc. In fact, that would be my favorite solution.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: tabbed x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
On Oct 10, 2011 2:01 AM, Michael Orlitzky mich...@orlitzky.com wrote: On 10/09/11 13:53, Alan McKinnon wrote: For rxvt, a suitable flag name would be plugins Or if there were some package-specific documentation that said, perl: enable the following plugins (written in perl): tabs, transparency, etc. In fact, that would be my favorite solution. Agree. The current USE flags are already proper. What's lacking is a list of consequences for disabling/enabling each applicable flag. Rgds,
[gentoo-user] Re: tabbed x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
On Saturday 08 October 2011, Michael Orlitzky wrote: On 10/08/11 13:43, Francesco Talamona wrote: x11-terms/rxvt-unicode is one of the program I use the most, today I lost the ability to have multiple tabs and almost panicked. I found the solution to have back this essential feature: re-enable perl USE flag for this package and re-emerge. Just wanted to share my experience. HTH I'm going to start a bug-filing campaign against packages like this some day. The only description we ever get for use flag foo is 'enable support for foo', which doesn't tell you anything at all about how it affects a given package. There are a number of packages with perl and python use flags where disabling the use flag will silently disable essential functionality. In my opinion, the use flag should simply be removed rather than have what amounts to USE=make_it_work_properly. I agree with the (default) removal of the perl and python flags: http://blog.jolexa.net/ but you should complain about packages that are basically broken without them. I'm not going to complain, though I'm willing to point out (e.g. commenting on relevant bug reports) that some packages are affected in a bad way by this move. To be honest I didn't look for a solution in b.g.o because it was straightforward; even if not so manifest for me the link between the perl flag and the ability for rxvt to run tabbed (given that it doesn't give an error). I don't want to be blunt, but your plan looks to me quite vague. My opinion is that some packages should have a different default. Regards Francesco -- Linux Version 3.0.4-gentoo, Compiled #1 SMP PREEMPT Wed Aug 31 07:34:34 CEST 2011 Two 2.9GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 Processors, 4GB RAM, 11659 Bogomips Total aemaeth
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: tabbed x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
On Sat, 8 Oct 2011 21:09:48 +0200 Francesco Talamona francesco.talam...@know.eu wrote: On Saturday 08 October 2011, Michael Orlitzky wrote: On 10/08/11 13:43, Francesco Talamona wrote: x11-terms/rxvt-unicode is one of the program I use the most, today I lost the ability to have multiple tabs and almost panicked. I found the solution to have back this essential feature: re-enable perl USE flag for this package and re-emerge. Just wanted to share my experience. HTH I'm going to start a bug-filing campaign against packages like this some day. The only description we ever get for use flag foo is 'enable support for foo', which doesn't tell you anything at all about how it affects a given package. There are a number of packages with perl and python use flags where disabling the use flag will silently disable essential functionality. In my opinion, the use flag should simply be removed rather than have what amounts to USE=make_it_work_properly. I agree with the (default) removal of the perl and python flags: http://blog.jolexa.net/ but you should complain about packages that are basically broken without them. I'm not going to complain, though I'm willing to point out (e.g. commenting on relevant bug reports) that some packages are affected in a bad way by this move. To be honest I didn't look for a solution in b.g.o because it was straightforward; even if not so manifest for me the link between the perl flag and the ability for rxvt to run tabbed (given that it doesn't give an error). I don't want to be blunt, but your plan looks to me quite vague. My opinion is that some packages should have a different default. A good plan is to give USE flags sensible names. This one describes what the flag *is*, a good description tells you what the flag *does*. USE=perl tells you squat, you don't even know what effect it will have. You'd have to read the ebuild and the source to figure that out. A MUCH better name is USE=tabs with a description like this Provide multiple tabs, requires perl. It's really just a different manifestation of the #1 but in almost all interfaces: exposing the underlying implementation in the interface. -- Alan McKinnnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: tabbed x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
I second this! On Sat Oct 8 12:23:57 2011, Alan McKinnon wrote: On Sat, 8 Oct 2011 21:09:48 +0200 Francesco Talamona francesco.talam...@know.eu wrote: On Saturday 08 October 2011, Michael Orlitzky wrote: On 10/08/11 13:43, Francesco Talamona wrote: x11-terms/rxvt-unicode is one of the program I use the most, today I lost the ability to have multiple tabs and almost panicked. I found the solution to have back this essential feature: re-enable perl USE flag for this package and re-emerge. Just wanted to share my experience. HTH I'm going to start a bug-filing campaign against packages like this some day. The only description we ever get for use flag foo is 'enable support for foo', which doesn't tell you anything at all about how it affects a given package. There are a number of packages with perl and python use flags where disabling the use flag will silently disable essential functionality. In my opinion, the use flag should simply be removed rather than have what amounts to USE=make_it_work_properly. I agree with the (default) removal of the perl and python flags: http://blog.jolexa.net/ but you should complain about packages that are basically broken without them. I'm not going to complain, though I'm willing to point out (e.g. commenting on relevant bug reports) that some packages are affected in a bad way by this move. To be honest I didn't look for a solution in b.g.o because it was straightforward; even if not so manifest for me the link between the perl flag and the ability for rxvt to run tabbed (given that it doesn't give an error). I don't want to be blunt, but your plan looks to me quite vague. My opinion is that some packages should have a different default. A good plan is to give USE flags sensible names. This one describes what the flag *is*, a good description tells you what the flag *does*. USE=perl tells you squat, you don't even know what effect it will have. You'd have to read the ebuild and the source to figure that out. A MUCH better name is USE=tabs with a description like this Provide multiple tabs, requires perl. It's really just a different manifestation of the #1 but in almost all interfaces: exposing the underlying implementation in the interface. -- Willie Matthews matthews.wil...@gmail.com Internet Technology Specialist -- Willie Matthews matthews.wil...@gmail.com Internet Technology Specialist (702) 508-8455
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: tabbed x11-terms/rxvt-unicode
On 10/08/11 15:09, Francesco Talamona wrote: I'm not going to complain, though I'm willing to point out (e.g. commenting on relevant bug reports) that some packages are affected in a bad way by this move. Comment here? The devs are still CCed even though it's closed: https://bugs.gentoo.org/250179 To be honest I didn't look for a solution in b.g.o because it was straightforward; even if not so manifest for me the link between the perl flag and the ability for rxvt to run tabbed (given that it doesn't give an error). I don't want to be blunt, but your plan looks to me quite vague. My opinion is that some packages should have a different default. That bug is for adding IUSE defaults, rather than removing the flag.
