Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That is exactly what the xorg-x11 metapackage is designed to do. Not exactly. The xorg-x11 package pulls in much more than just the server w/ some drivers. cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
Hi, On Mon, 21 May 2007 13:57:14 +0400 "Andrey Gerasimenko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just curious: why nobody suggests to allow Portage to use the > preferred method of binary distros: emerge several interdependent > packages in one transaction. Because this just wouldn't work. They're not called "dependencies" without reason. Or is it a transactional rollback functionality you're talking about? > Just prepare the source for A and B and > compile both in any order. IMHO this is what the ideal system should > do. Certainly not. How do you want to link against a library that doesn't exist yet, even if theoretically you might be able to create a stub after running ./configure (for automake based build infrastructure)... -hwh -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Monday 21 May 2007, Andrey Gerasimenko wrote: > Just curious: why nobody suggests to allow Portage to use the > preferred method of binary distros: emerge several interdependent > packages in one transaction. Just prepare the source for A and B and > compile both in any order. IMHO this is what the ideal system should > do. Easy: A binary distro dumps a load of files on the disk, and apart from an optional pre- or post-install script, that's the entire install . Gentoo is a SOURCE distro. It compiles stuff, and the stuff it links to MUST be on the disk before the linker will link it. If B depends on A, make B will fail if the required files in A are not present. alan -- Optimists say the glass is half full, Pessimists say the glass is half empty, Developers say wtf is the glass twice as big as it needs to be? Alan McKinnon alan at linuxholdings dot co dot za +27 82, double three seven, one nine three five -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Sat, 19 May 2007 07:00:58 +0400, Kent Fredric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... Imo, the cyclic dep problem could be solved as thus, A depends B B depends C||A Where C is a minimalist subset of A required for building B, which is only depended on if A is not present. A is also a replacement for C. So the flow would go like such. Emerge A: * depends on b * A is missing, so depend on C *emerges C* *emerges B* *removes C* <-- otherwise A & C containing the same files = headache *emerges A* Yes, indeed I agree that we could just do this by hand by changing a USE flag, but we should at least be open to the idea of looking for a way to automatically resolve the problem. Computers exist to make our life easier, not the other way around :) Just curious: why nobody suggests to allow Portage to use the preferred method of binary distros: emerge several interdependent packages in one transaction. Just prepare the source for A and B and compile both in any order. IMHO this is what the ideal system should do. -- Andrei Gerasimenko -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
> Enrico Weigelt wrote: > > The circular dependencies between Xserver and drivers do not come > > from upstream. They're artificial. If we just want an simple-to-use > > package which gets the Xserver *and* drivers based on useflags > > (which IMHO is an good idea), it's quite trivial to do this by an > > virtual/meta package. I've did it and it works good. You can get > > it from my overlay via CVS: > > That is exactly what the xorg-x11 metapackage is designed to do. If you don't add in a million USE flags that don't want to play nice, then it should all compile (in theory). I say in theory, because there are always things that can possibly get in the way. Bugs happen on occasion. I am learning how to properly use USE flags myself. ^_^ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
Enrico Weigelt wrote: BTW: some people expressed (within this thread), that Gentoo was too easy to use and should be made more complicated. Funny, isn't it ? No, that is not funny, but I'll tell you what is humorous. That all three posters involved in saying Gentoo was too easy were speaking sarcastically and then watching you try to use it to prove some point other than the obvious fact that you have no idea what you're talking about. That my friend is pure comedy. kashani -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
Enrico Weigelt wrote: The circular dependencies between Xserver and drivers do not come from upstream. They're artificial. If we just want an simple-to-use package which gets the Xserver *and* drivers based on useflags (which IMHO is an good idea), it's quite trivial to do this by an virtual/meta package. I've did it and it works good. You can get it from my overlay via CVS: You totally baffle me. As I've previously stated, I just installed Gentoo with xorg, kde, etc. on a new machine and there were no circular dependencies or any other problems. The whole lot emerged without error and installed my selected driver, nvidia. So where is the problem that you are supposedly seeing? Be lucky, Neil -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Sun, 20 May 2007 18:49:31 +0200, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > The circular dependencies between Xserver and drivers do not come > from upstream. They're artificial. If we just want an simple-to-use > package which gets the Xserver *and* drivers based on useflags > (which IMHO is an good idea), it's quite trivial to do this by an > virtual/meta package. I've did it and it works good. You can get > it from my overlay via CVS: How is this different prom portage installing the server and required drivers according to USE flag settings? VIDEO_CARDS is expanded to USE flags to install only the drivers you need. -- Neil Bothwick Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
* Kent Fredric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi folks, > Imo, the cyclic dep problem could be solved as thus, > > A depends B >B depends C||A > > Where C is a minimalist subset of A required for building B, > which is only depended on if A is not present. > A is also a replacement for C. Beware of conflicts ! AFAIK portage cannot handle them by itself, instead aborts and leaves the job to the user. > So the flow would go like such. > > Emerge A: > * depends on b > * A is missing, so depend on C > *emerges C* > *emerges B* > *removes C* <-- otherwise A & C containing the same files = headache > *emerges A* Who exactly controls this flow ? portage or the user ? > Computers exist to make our life easier, not the other way around :) ACK. An "ideal" system would be able to do it all alone, the user just tells what he wants. Of course ideal != realistic, but IMHO its good to go into the ideal direction as far as possible. BTW: some people expressed (within this thread), that Gentoo was too easy to use and should be made more complicated. Funny, isn't it ? Ah, just in case that 99% of the people didn't actually read my postings, I'll just say it again: The circular dependencies between Xserver and drivers do not come from upstream. They're artificial. If we just want an simple-to-use package which gets the Xserver *and* drivers based on useflags (which IMHO is an good idea), it's quite trivial to do this by an virtual/meta package. I've did it and it works good. You can get it from my overlay via CVS: CVSROOT=:pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/repositories/cvs/oss-qm password: annymous module: oss-qm-overlay cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
Quite Erroneous Debate?
> > Jakub is no longer a bug-wrangler, or a dev, he retired last month.
>
> Ah, good things still happen ? ;P
Jakub was very good at his job, but he does have an attitude problem.
Are you trying to emulate him, you are already halfway there?
Give the guy a break :P. When your having to deal with lots of noobs
being retarded telling you you're wrong on a daily basis when you know
otherwise, I guess most people get frustrated at it :P.
So lets not be bashing him, especially when hes not around to fend for
himself eh?
Imo, the cyclic dep problem could be solved as thus,
A depends B
B depends C||A
Where C is a minimalist subset of A required for building B, which is
only depended on if A is not present.
A is also a replacement for C.
So the flow would go like such.
Emerge A:
* depends on b
* A is missing, so depend on C
*emerges C*
*emerges B*
*removes C* <-- otherwise A & C containing the same files = headache
*emerges A*
Yes, indeed I agree that we could just do this by hand by changing a
USE flag, but we should at least be open to the idea of looking for a
way to automatically resolve the problem. Computers exist to make our
life easier, not the other way around :)
--
Kent
ruby -e '[1, 2, 4, 7, 0, 9, 5, 8, 3, 10, 11, 6, 12, 13].each{|x|
print "enNOSPicAMreil [EMAIL PROTECTED]"[(2*x)..(2*x+1)]}'
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So yes, that is a circular dependency, even without Gentoo involved. Not everything is simple, and not everything is cut and dry. Sometimes the problem is not directly the package manager's fault. Give them time to work out all the glitches. 7.2 is fairly new. The chip used by most AMD64 machines, and a handful of Intel machines is not supported by the Vendor with 7.2. All the support at this time has to come from the Community, until updated drivers are released. Well, I really don't know what all this talk of glitches and circular dependencies is all about. I just installed Gentoo with xorg, kde, etc. on a brand new machine I built yesterday. It's an Abit motherboard with an vVidia chipset (nForce 4 Ultra) and an nVidia GeForce 7300GT video card. It all install without a single issue. In fact, I am typing this on that very machine. :) Be lucky, Neil -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
* Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > ATI has nice graphics maybe (I still prefer nVidia), but they > > are not friendly to the Open Source World. > > AMD announced last week that they will be releasing ATI drivers as OSS: > > http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/13/1659245 > > previous to the former announcement: > http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/05/10/1424224.shtml well, let's the what actually happens ... cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Thu, 17 May 2007 18:03:21 +0200, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > > If A depends on B and B depends on A, you build A without support > > for B, then you can safely install B and A again with the features > > you wanted. > > Great idea. Lots of redundant compiles and manual work just because > unclean dependencies. Lots? This new install has over 1000 packages on it, there was exactly one circular depends, brought about by my changing USE flags too much. It took around a minute to fix. If you are really that limited for CPU cycles that this is a problem, I suggest you should not be using a source based distro. > Let's see if we get the driver API moved out to its own package, > so we it'll be some bit clearer (could also make licensing issues > some bit easier), but that's another story. Yes, and one for the XOrg list, since Gentoo's policy is to stay as lose to upstream as is feasible. > It *P*DEPENDs on them. That's an (strange) kind of special dependency > which is pulled in *after* install, instead of *before*. But still > it is an dependency. > > So, Xserver dependens on driver(s), drivers depend on Xserver. > Circular dependency. no ot doesn't, it PDEPENDS on them, thereby removing any circular dependency. > q.e.d. Quite Erroneous Debate? > > Jakub is no longer a bug-wrangler, or a dev, he retired last month. > > Ah, good things still happen ? ;P Jakub was very good at his job, but he does have an attitude problem. Are you trying to emulate him, you are already halfway there? -- Neil Bothwick If at first you do succeed, try to hide your astonishment. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
RE: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
> -Original Message- > From: Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 7:02 PM > To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org > Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular > dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs] > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > ATI has nice graphics maybe (I still prefer nVidia), but > they are not > > friendly to the Open Source World. > > AMD announced last week that they will be releasing ATI > drivers as OSS: > http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/13/1659245 >previous to the former announcement: http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/05/10/1424224.shtml Cool. Even though ATI wasn't very Open Source friendly, AMD always has been. :P It is good when our allies buy out hostile entities. ^_^ I still prefer nVidia. :P Someone just needs to nudge them in the right direction. Maybe this will do the trick. ^_^ At the very least, we will hopefully have drivers for our ATI cards soon. ^_^ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > ATI has nice graphics maybe (I still prefer nVidia), but they > are not friendly to the Open Source World. AMD announced last week that they will be releasing ATI drivers as OSS: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/13/1659245 previous to the former announcement: http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/05/10/1424224.shtml - -- Arturo "Buanzo" Busleiman - Consultor Independiente en Seguridad Informatica OpenPGP for HTTP: New Web-Auth Scheme: http://freshmeat.net/articles/view/2599 Consulting and Secure Mail Hosting: http://www.buanzo.com.ar/pro/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGTXmLAlpOsGhXcE0RCglFAJ91jOKEFPl0DUFxE29CIri9HaOJxgCdGG5q WXc+SuxJV4W/NRL1XOV62VM= =1lG4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
> -Original Message- > From: Hemmann, Volker Armin > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 2:22 AM > To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org > Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular > dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs] > > > On Donnerstag, 17. Mai 2007, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > > > > > It *P*DEPENDs on them. That's an (strange) kind of special > dependency > > which is pulled in *after* install, instead of *before*. > But still it > > is an dependency. > > > > So, Xserver dependens on driver(s), drivers depend on Xserver. > > Circular dependency. > > > > q.e.d. > > > > aren't you ashamed of yourself, when you post stupid stuff like that? I haven't done an install of Xorg on Gentoo yet (Right now I am running off of a networkless install, so that doesn't really count). However, when I installed it on an LFS build, on the same machine, I followed their walkthrough, and it installed fine. Mesa would not install without installing Xorg first, and Xorg would not install without knowing where the mesa source code is. Other drivers were left up to the individual to handle, but that was enough for everything to load. So yes, that is a circular dependency, even without Gentoo involved. Not everything is simple, and not everything is cut and dry. Sometimes the problem is not directly the package manager's fault. Give them time to work out all the glitches. 7.2 is fairly new. The chip used by most AMD64 machines, and a handful of Intel machines is not supported by the Vendor with 7.2. All the support at this time has to come from the Community, until updated drivers are released. It was considered a greater miracle when we got the ones we have now. ATI has nice graphics maybe (I still prefer nVidia), but they are not friendly to the Open Source World. They throw us a bone every now and then, and people rejoice because they can use the same hardware more easily between Windows and Linux. End result is that when software upgrades, you either have to stay behind, or hope that the devs find a work around for you (unless you can do the work around yourself). I haven't heard too many complaints out of nVidia users though. :P My lap top is a laptop. It has to use whatever it already has in it. When I build my next desktop however, it will use nVidia. I guess it would probably be a good point to make that issues installing X Almost always come down to video card support. --- Ken -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On 5/16/07, Iain Buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 15:51 -0700, kashani wrote: > Is it the end of another semester already[1][2]? Are we already due to > be subjected to the highly dubious ideas of Mr. Weigelt sporadically > over summer break? > > kashani > > 1. search for Enrico Weigelt on gmane and sort by date in the Gentoo lists. > 2. Aren't we due for top posting vs bottom posting[3] again? > 3. or maybe "newbies suck and Gentoo should be hard"[4] > 4. I like to think there are circadian like cycles on the Internet Gentoo is becoming too easy to use. We need to keep up the smoke and mirrors. Stop being so nice everyone, you'll attract more newbies! I think I'll raise a bug about this. -- Iain Buchanan A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere. -- Groucho Marx -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list I'm gonna file a bug report about your bug report. -- - Mark Shields
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Thursday 17 May 2007, "Arturo 'Buanzo' Busleiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]': > Come on, Enrico, you KNOW you're acting like the typical mailing list > troll, so, would you please unsbuscribe, shut up, or something like > that? You definitely need to read HOWTO Critize (constructively). > > And I could use some support from the rest of the list here :) He's got *some* points, but he's being intentionally antagonistic and taking a "my way or the highway" attitude. [Actually, maybe his position would be better stated a "'the Debian way' or the highway", but I digress.] So, yeah he's a troll, but at least it's a good troll. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.org/ \_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Thursday 17 May 2007 18:10:29 Enrico Weigelt wrote: > > Enrico's 'brilliant' solution is to split packages like Debian > > Ah, now it get interesting. > > The primary directive: "We are not Debian", > If Debian does something, Gentoo must do it completely different. Nonono. It's: We are not a binary distro so we don't need the workarounds that binary distros need. What we need is an improved package manager (and a lot of work is being put into that as we speak..). > > (which again makes me wonder why he doesn't just switch back to that). > > In other words: "I don't like your oppinion, and dont want to > hear anything about that. So please go far far way. And lets > build an great Anti-Debian wall." This isn't anti-Debian. This is anti-trolling and anti-ranting. Please take your trolling and ranting elsewhere. -- Bo Andresen signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Donnerstag, 17. Mai 2007, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > > It *P*DEPENDs on them. That's an (strange) kind of special dependency > which is pulled in *after* install, instead of *before*. But still > it is an dependency. > > So, Xserver dependens on driver(s), drivers depend on Xserver. > Circular dependency. > > q.e.d. > aren't you ashamed of yourself, when you post stupid stuff like that? > - > Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ > - > Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: > http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce > Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: > http://patches.metux.de/ > - After all the rubbish you sent to this mailing list, I know exactly whom I will never pay for IT services. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Come on, Enrico, you KNOW you're acting like the typical mailing list troll, so, would you please unsbuscribe, shut up, or something like that? You definitely need to read HOWTO Critize (constructively). And I could use some support from the rest of the list here :) - -- Arturo "Buanzo" Busleiman - Consultor Independiente en Seguridad Informatica OpenPGP for HTTP: New Web-Auth Scheme: http://freshmeat.net/articles/view/2599 Consulting and Secure Mail Hosting: http://www.buanzo.com.ar/pro/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGTI77AlpOsGhXcE0RClejAJ94rLQwPcHTNCjyp/8yq2spN7zGFACeLeE6 jJwLsUpwB+zwVfH+hGBq0Vc= =Opcf -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
* Bo Ørsted Andresen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Enrico's 'brilliant' solution is to split packages like Debian Ah, now it get interesting. The primary directive: "We are not Debian", If Debian does something, Gentoo must do it completely different. *lol* > (which again makes me wonder why he doesn't just switch back to that). In other words: "I don't like your oppinion, and dont want to hear anything about that. So please go far far way. And lets build an great Anti-Debian wall." ;-O cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
* Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi, > > At least several. I didn't find an good solution for checking > > the whole tree yet, so I yet know some. Good candidates are > > where PDEPENDs occour. For example the Xserver. > > As Bo has already explained, PDEPENDS cannot cause circular dependencies, > in fact they prevent them. Or in other words: an way of making circular dependencies some bit less painful. > Yes, it is a good solution, because the circular dependency is > caused by changed USE flags in the first place. You did notice > my use of the word "temporarily", didn't you? If the package management cannot handle such cases 100% automatic, I'd consider it as buggy. Just my personal oppinion, and I'll fix it at my site. Anyone who shares my oppions and likes to join me, feel free to give a note. > If A depends on B and B depends on A, you build A without support > for B, then you can safely install B and A again with the features > you wanted. Great idea. Lots of redundant compiles and manual work just because unclean dependencies. > > > Since you are clearly able to solve a problem that comes fro upstream > > > and which the combined might of SUSE and Gentoo has failed to do, > > > > Which problem from the upstream ? > > Interdependency of unrelated packages. In case of the Xserver ? Okay, mesa still suxx, but the borderline between server and drivers is clear. Let's see if we get the driver API moved out to its own package, so we it'll be some bit clearer (could also make licensing issues some bit easier), but that's another story. > > The problem w/ x11-base/xorg-server are the PDEPENDs on (external) > > driver packages. I dont see any valid reason for depending the > > Xserver on drivers, which themselfes depend on the Xserver. > > The server does not depend on the drivers, it depends on them, it > wouldn't be much use without at least three drivers. It *P*DEPENDs on them. That's an (strange) kind of special dependency which is pulled in *after* install, instead of *before*. But still it is an dependency. So, Xserver dependens on driver(s), drivers depend on Xserver. Circular dependency. q.e.d. > > In fact, I'll provide an solution. It will be published within the > > OSS-QM project. But I won't waste any second on filing any bug, > > just for that it's marked invalid by folks like Jakub. > > Jakub is no longer a bug-wrangler, or a dev, he retired last month. Ah, good things still happen ? ;P Maybe we could have another try: I'll publish my overlay in a few days. Feel free to try it out and get some stuff into offical tree. cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
* Bo Ørsted Andresen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > *What* are you talking about? PDEPENDs are packages that should be emerged > *after* the package in question. That A depends on B to be emerged *after* A > and B depends on A to be emerged *before* B does not produce a circular > dependency! In some situations they're in fact circular, ie. when using binary packages. BTW: I don't see any reason why the whole Xserve should be recompiled if just some other device driver is needed. > The PDEPEND of xorg-server is a convenience for the user to only need to set > VIDEO_CARDS and INPUT_DEVICES (or stick with the defaults) and have > xorg-server pull in only the requested drivers after itself. Why not simply an virtual for that ? I did it in my overlay, and it works very fine. > > If you want some package which pulls in an complete Xserver installation > > *and* drivers (based on certain useflags), why not just an virtual > > package ? > > virtuals are similar to meta packages (if you look at their contents) > with one very important difference. > > virtuals provide a minimal functionality that other packages can > depend on without caring about what provides it. meta packages > are a convenience to the users that pulls in a bunch of packages > and hence nothing is allowed to depend on them. meta or virtual - where's the technical difference ? I don't care about how you call them, but pulling in the drivers should not belong to the server package, but an separate one. cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [OT] Jakub back? (was: Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs])
On Thu, May 17, 2007 at 03:44:41PM +0200, Naga Toro wrote: > On Thursday 17 May 2007 00.17.29 Neil Bothwick wrote: > > Jakub is no longer a bug-wrangler, or a dev, he retired last month. > > Did he really? He's still jakub on bugzilla, -dev IRC. > Jakub didn't go through with his retirement after the suspension ended but he has opened a retirement bug again. We haven't heard the last word in that case yet as ombudsman have been asked to look at the conflict that lead to this and devrel is watching the situation closely. Regards, Bryan Østergaard -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[OT] Jakub back? (was: Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs])
On Thursday 17 May 2007 00.17.29 Neil Bothwick wrote: > Jakub is no longer a bug-wrangler, or a dev, he retired last month. Did he really? He's still jakub on bugzilla, -dev IRC. -- Naga -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Wed, 16 May 2007 17:40:20 -0500, Dale wrote: > > I think the important point about this was that it was such a trivial > > hiccup to fix - USE="-directfb" emerge -1 libsdl - then continue with > > the previous emerge. > Neil, I know you know more about this than I do but I always do a emerge > -uN world after I change my USE line in make.conf. Would that not be a > prudent thing to do? Seems that would fix that but it may mean > compiling something twice though. It wouldn't have helped in this case as neither package was installed, hence the USE-enabled conflict, each package needed the other to install. When updating, changes i USE flags rarely cause problems, and will do even less so when we get use-deps. -- Neil Bothwick Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional!! signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 15:51 -0700, kashani wrote: > Is it the end of another semester already[1][2]? Are we already due to > be subjected to the highly dubious ideas of Mr. Weigelt sporadically > over summer break? > > kashani > > 1. search for Enrico Weigelt on gmane and sort by date in the Gentoo lists. > 2. Aren't we due for top posting vs bottom posting[3] again? > 3. or maybe "newbies suck and Gentoo should be hard"[4] > 4. I like to think there are circadian like cycles on the Internet Gentoo is becoming too easy to use. We need to keep up the smoke and mirrors. Stop being so nice everyone, you'll attract more newbies! I think I'll raise a bug about this. -- Iain Buchanan A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere. -- Groucho Marx -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
Enrico Weigelt wrote: * Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I did get a circular dependency today, sdl and directfb and guess what? The error message also contained the solution, which was to temporarily change a USE flag. *rofl* what a good solution. really clean. gread idea. Is it the end of another semester already[1][2]? Are we already due to be subjected to the highly dubious ideas of Mr. Weigelt sporadically over summer break? kashani 1. search for Enrico Weigelt on gmane and sort by date in the Gentoo lists. 2. Aren't we due for top posting vs bottom posting[3] again? 3. or maybe "newbies suck and Gentoo should be hard"[4] 4. I like to think there are circadian like cycles on the Internet -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
Neil Bothwick wrote: > > > You mean I shouldn't have copied over a make.conf from another machine > without checking? ;-) > > I think the important point about this was that it was such a trivial > hiccup to fix - USE="-directfb" emerge -1 libsdl - then continue with the > previous emerge. > > > Neil, I know you know more about this than I do but I always do a emerge -uN world after I change my USE line in make.conf. Would that not be a prudent thing to do? Seems that would fix that but it may mean compiling something twice though. Dale :-) :-) :-) -- www.myspace.com/-remove-me-dalek1967 Copy n paste then remove the -remove-me- part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Wed, 16 May 2007 17:47:37 +0200, Enrico Weigelt wrote: >> Lots? If you'd posted this yesterday, I would have been able to recall > > the last time I was hit with one. > > At least several. I didn't find an good solution for checking > the whole tree yet, so I yet know some. Good candidates are > where PDEPENDs occour. For example the Xserver. As Bo has already explained, PDEPENDS cannot cause circular dependencies, in fact they prevent them. > > I did get a circular dependency today, sdl and directfb and guess > > what? The error message also contained the solution, which was to > > temporarily change a USE flag. > > *rofl* what a good solution. really clean. gread idea. Yes, it is a good solution, because the circular dependency is caused by changed USE flags in the first place. You did notice my use of the word "temporarily", didn't you? If A depends on B and B depends on A, you build A without support for B, then you can safely install B and A again with the features you wanted. This is nothing to do with portage but a consequence of building packages from different projects from source. Naturally, you won't see this with a binary distro, because someone has already gone through the "build A without B support, build B, build A again" process, but without the benefit of USE flags to make it much easier. Having said that, portage ought to be able to handle this situation better than it does, and work in continuing in that direction. Anal sarcasm does not shorten the development cycle for such features. > > The great thing about free software is that it all comes with a full > > money back guarantee. So before you start shooting your mouth off when > > something produced by volunteers in their own time fails to work for > > you, stop and remember how much you paid for it and why. > > You don't need to give me lesson on OSS, I've did enough work OSS > projects over last 12 years to know how it works. Really, that comes as something of a surprise after reading your posts. > And I'm really tired of trying to talk with learn-resistent devs who > clearly expressed that they don't any of my help and told be to stay > away from b.g.o. So I'm maintaining my own overlay and concentrate on > getting things running instead of wasting time with certain devs. "Certain devs"? Your previous batch of insults was aimed at "the Gentoo devs". Are you becoming more selective over whom you wish to impugn? > > Since you are clearly able to solve a problem that comes fro upstream > > and which the combined might of SUSE and Gentoo has failed to do, > > Which problem from the upstream ? Interdependency of unrelated packages. > The problem w/ x11-base/xorg-server are the PDEPENDs on (external) > driver packages. I dont see any valid reason for depending the > Xserver on drivers, which themselfes depend on the Xserver. The server does not depend on the drivers, it depends on them, it wouldn't be much use without at least three drivers. > IMHO, there were days where it had been done so (when PDEPEND did not > yet exist). I don't know why this had changed, probably just to get > an new feature widely used. (BTW: I do not see any valid reason for > PDEPEND anyways) Which probably says more about your understanding of how things work than it does about their usefulness. > In fact, I'll provide an solution. It will be published within the > OSS-QM project. But I won't waste any second on filing any bug, > just for that it's marked invalid by folks like Jakub. Jakub is no longer a bug-wrangler, or a dev, he retired last month. -- Neil Bothwick New: Different color from previous model. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Wed, 16 May 2007 17:51:20 +0200, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote: > Circular dependencies are mostly a problem for new users since as soon > as the dependencies are installed the circular dependencies are > satisfied and hence irrelevant. I know, it was in a new install that I got hit. > The real problem comes when a new user right after finishing install > sets a bunch of use flags and attempts to emerge gnome or kde only to > be greeted with 40 lines or more of circular dependencies. You mean I shouldn't have copied over a make.conf from another machine without checking? ;-) I think the important point about this was that it was such a trivial hiccup to fix - USE="-directfb" emerge -1 libsdl - then continue with the previous emerge. -- Neil Bothwick On the other hand, you have different fingers. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
Jerry McBride wrote: > > ? > > I haven't seen one... in years... > > > > I think maybe you should look your gentoo over again... you've done something > really STUPID. > > > > > I haven't had one in a long while either. I have ran into blocked packages or something minor like that but that's to be expected. Gentoo is growing so it has to bust a button on occasion. Dale :-) :-) :-) :-) -- www.myspace.com/-remove-me-dalek1967 Copy n paste then remove the -remove-me- part. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Wednesday 16 May 2007 10:23:13 am Enrico Weigelt wrote: > Hi folks, > > > I also want to say "Thank you" to the gentoo devs. > > Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies > (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated. > ? I haven't seen one... in years... > Cirular deps have been really sucking in SuSE and were one > of the major for dropping it to me. > > Great, great thanks to the devs for forcing me to maintain my > own overlay to clean up the crap. (anyone who's interested in > it, please give a note). > I think maybe you should look your gentoo over again... you've done something really STUPID. -- Jerry McBride -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Wed, 16 May 2007 15:54:13 +0100 Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The great thing about free software is that it all comes with a full > money back guarantee. So before you start shooting your mouth off when > something produced by volunteers in their own time fails to work for > you, stop and remember how much you paid for it and why. And how much they got paid to write it. Perhaps I'll take this oppertunity to say: Thanks, to everyone who helped make gentoo what it is today. You do a fabulous job. This is the best distro on the planet ; ) Present company excluded, I begin to feel resentful towards people that complain but offer nothing to help. I _don't_ want to offend anyone reading -- this mostly happens on the forums -- but c'mon people, if you know whats wrong, why not help out the devs instead of mocking them? This is supposed to be a self-supporting community, remember? At any rate, I just installed X last weekend and had no big problems. It may not work for everybody 100% of the time, but it works for me 99.9% of the time, and the .1% is almost always my own fault. Remember how many people are collaborating on this project, and think of how difficult testing must be when there are literally thousands and thousands of hardware and software configurations. If something's broken, why not help them fix? They'd probably really appreciate it -- and i _know_ i would. Thanks again, to the gentoo team and the community here. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On 5/16/07, Enrico Weigelt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Which problem from the upstream ? I'm a little bit involved in Xorg development (especially on the modularizing project), so if you tell me the problem, I could fix it. The problem w/ x11-base/xorg-server are the PDEPENDs on (external) driver packages. I dont see any valid reason for depending the Xserver on drivers, which themselfes depend on the Xserver. If you want some package which pulls in an complete Xserver installation *and* drivers (based on certain useflags), why not just an virtual package ? IMHO, there were days where it had been done so (when PDEPEND did not yet exist). I don't know why this had changed, probably just to get an new feature widely used. (BTW: I do not see any valid reason for PDEPEND anyways) Thanks, this was much more informative and useful than: I also want to say "Thank you" to the gentoo devs. Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated. Cirular deps have been really sucking in SuSE and were one of the major for dropping it to me. Great, great thanks to the devs for forcing me to maintain my own overlay to clean up the crap. (anyone who's interested in it, please give a note).
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Wednesday 16 May 2007 17:47:37 Enrico Weigelt wrote: > > > Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies > > > (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated. > > > > Lots? If you'd posted this yesterday, I would have been able to recall > > the last time I was hit with one. > > At least several. I didn't find an good solution for checking > the whole tree yet, so I yet know some. Good candidates are > where PDEPENDs occour. For example the Xserver. *What* are you talking about? PDEPENDs are packages that should be emerged *after* the package in question. That A depends on B to be emerged *after* A and B depends on A to be emerged *before* B does not produce a circular dependency! The PDEPEND of xorg-server is a convenience for the user to only need to set VIDEO_CARDS and INPUT_DEVICES (or stick with the defaults) and have xorg-server pull in only the requested drivers after itself. > If you want some package which pulls in an complete Xserver installation > *and* drivers (based on certain useflags), why not just an virtual > package ? virtuals are similar to meta packages (if you look at their contents) with one very important difference. virtuals provide a minimal functionality that other packages can depend on without caring about what provides it. meta packages are a convenience to the users that pulls in a bunch of packages and hence nothing is allowed to depend on them. -- Bo Andresen signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
Hi Enrico, I also want to say "Thank you" to the gentoo devs. Yes, thanks for a very very great job... I was installed gentoo a few months ago and I don't want anything else... Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated. are you about this?, if your answer is yes, please feel free to post your errors... Cirular deps have been really sucking in SuSE and were one of the major for dropping it to me. SuSE != Gentoo? did you understand that?, SuSE is not bad at all but have a lot of things wrong... Great, great thanks to the devs for forcing me to maintain my own overlay to clean up the crap. (anyone who's interested in it, please give a note). Believe me, it's a VERY good thing you have your own overlay, actually if you think what all of this great work is "crap" and you have the tools or knowledge to clean, feel free to help, be a constructive critic, not destructive..it's very important more people to clean, to be a better gentoo. Please don't be sarcastic it's not necessary, the community don't need troubles. Actually, I think you must to be gracefully to have this good, wonderfully and excellent community... All people do this work because they want, no pay for that, no money between their work and their intentions, all work is free as in freedom. Please remember when you want more, give more, when you need more please give more not sarcastic. It's very important, now you are talking to many people in the list so much of thems are very very good professionals and enthusiasts and activists of free software specifically of gentoo. Please be more corteuos and give the respect when you refer to this community, remember a good rules... feel free (totally) to do all your questions, ask whatever you want the gentoo community is there for help people disinterestedly...live free, feel free, be free, give freedom.. that's what i think, Thanks in advance. On 5/16/07, Enrico Weigelt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi folks, I also want to say "Thank you" to the gentoo devs. Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated. Cirular deps have been really sucking in SuSE and were one of the major for dropping it to me. Great, great thanks to the devs for forcing me to maintain my own overlay to clean up the crap. (anyone who's interested in it, please give a note). cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- Francisco Rivas Linux User (New) : #448324 Linux Machine (New) : 355187
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Wednesday 16 May 2007 16:54:13 Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Wed, 16 May 2007 16:23:13 +0200, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > > Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies > > (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated. > > Lots? If you'd posted this yesterday, I would[n't] have been able to recall > the last time I was hit with one. > > > Great, great thanks to the devs for forcing me to maintain my > > own overlay to clean up the crap. (anyone who's interested in > > it, please give a note). > > I did get a circular dependency today, sdl and directfb and guess what? > The error message also contained the solution, which was to temporarily > change a USE flag. Circular dependencies are mostly a problem for new users since as soon as the dependencies are installed the circular dependencies are satisfied and hence irrelevant. The real problem comes when a new user right after finishing install sets a bunch of use flags and attempts to emerge gnome or kde only to be greeted with 40 lines or more of circular dependencies. Enrico's 'brilliant' solution is to split packages like Debian (which again makes me wonder why he doesn't just switch back to that). The route the Gentoo devs are going to take, however, is to improve portage which unfortunately tends to drag on... For the impatient this is one of things that paludis does a lot better than portage. For the general case I fully agree with the rest of your post. -- Bo Andresen signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
* Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 16 May 2007 16:23:13 +0200, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > > > Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies > > (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated. > > Lots? If you'd posted this yesterday, I would have been able to recall > the last time I was hit with one. At least several. I didn't find an good solution for checking the whole tree yet, so I yet know some. Good candidates are where PDEPENDs occour. For example the Xserver. I'm currently in the process of fixing the ebuilds in my overlay. > I did get a circular dependency today, sdl and directfb and guess what? > The error message also contained the solution, which was to temporarily > change a USE flag. *rofl* what a good solution. really clean. gread idea. > The great thing about free software is that it all comes with a full > money back guarantee. So before you start shooting your mouth off when > something produced by volunteers in their own time fails to work for you, > stop and remember how much you paid for it and why. You don't need to give me lesson on OSS, I've did enough work OSS projects over last 12 years to know how it works. And I'm really tired of trying to talk with learn-resistent devs who clearly expressed that they don't any of my help and told be to stay away from b.g.o. So I'm maintaining my own overlay and concentrate on getting things running instead of wasting time with certain devs. The motivation of this mail is to inform other, probably frustrated, users, that there's more than the official tree. > Since you are clearly able to solve a problem that comes fro upstream > and which the combined might of SUSE and Gentoo has failed to do, Which problem from the upstream ? I'm a little bit involved in Xorg development (especially on the modularizing project), so if you tell me the problem, I could fix it. The problem w/ x11-base/xorg-server are the PDEPENDs on (external) driver packages. I dont see any valid reason for depending the Xserver on drivers, which themselfes depend on the Xserver. If you want some package which pulls in an complete Xserver installation *and* drivers (based on certain useflags), why not just an virtual package ? IMHO, there were days where it had been done so (when PDEPEND did not yet exist). I don't know why this had changed, probably just to get an new feature widely used. (BTW: I do not see any valid reason for PDEPEND anyways) > why not offer to help instead of posting sarcastic rants to a user > support list? $DEITY forbid, you could even file a bug describing > the problem and providing your solution. I'm tired of trying to help where my help is not wanted. As already said: the devs clearly told me that I'm unwelcomes, so I leave them alone. In fact, I'll provide an solution. It will be published within the OSS-QM project. But I won't waste any second on filing any bug, just for that it's marked invalid by folks like Jakub. cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo gets as bad SuSE: Circular dependencies [WAS: Thank you Gentoo devs]
On Wed, 16 May 2007 16:23:13 +0200, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > Thank you for producing lots of circular dependencies > (ie. in the Xserver), which make maintenance complicated. Lots? If you'd posted this yesterday, I would have been able to recall the last time I was hit with one. > Great, great thanks to the devs for forcing me to maintain my > own overlay to clean up the crap. (anyone who's interested in > it, please give a note). I did get a circular dependency today, sdl and directfb and guess what? The error message also contained the solution, which was to temporarily change a USE flag. The great thing about free software is that it all comes with a full money back guarantee. So before you start shooting your mouth off when something produced by volunteers in their own time fails to work for you, stop and remember how much you paid for it and why. Since you are clearly able to solve a problem that comes fro upstream and which the combined might of SUSE and Gentoo has failed to do, why not offer to help instead of posting sarcastic rants to a user support list? $DEITY forbid, you could even file a bug describing the problem and providing your solution. -- Neil Bothwick We are upping our standards - so up yours. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
