Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
Alan McKinnon wrote: On 25/06/2015 10:27, Dale wrote: Do we even have a clue how many puters Google has now? I read several years ago it was like 10,000 or so. No telling what they have now. o_O Around 2006, it was at least 100,000 You are out by an order of magnitude :-) I would not be surprised if today Google had 5 million custom-built stripped-down motherboards in production. Google long ago moved past the idea of having individual computers. By all accounts they have many large systems, and those systems are made up of lots of small parts - each part being a thing with CPU/RAM/disks and whatever. I bet that with the volume they buy, they can have their mobos custom made. I need to google and see if I can even find a picture of what they use now. I'm curious. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
Best way I ever found to learn how things really work under the hood is to build a Linux From Scratch and pay close attention to every single step. Not that you'd ever actually *use* that system - there's no sane package management for a start - but after building an LFS, the content of ebuilds in @system starts to make a lot more sense; you can see why some of the decisions in the profiles were made; and make.conf now appears in a whole new light. Then take the valuable lessons from LFS and apply them appropriately to using Gentoo. These things are tools and the best workmen are always very familiar with their tools as a co-ordinated whole (as opposed to a bunch of mish-mash stuff cluttering up a toolbox) Thanks. I will definitely do that.
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 8:01 AM, behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com wrote: Best way I ever found to learn how things really work under the hood is to build a Linux From Scratch and pay close attention to every single step. Not that you'd ever actually *use* that system - there's no sane package management for a start - but after building an LFS, the content of ebuilds in @system starts to make a lot more sense; you can see why some of the decisions in the profiles were made; and make.conf now appears in a whole new light. Then take the valuable lessons from LFS and apply them appropriately to using Gentoo. These things are tools and the best workmen are always very familiar with their tools as a co-ordinated whole (as opposed to a bunch of mish-mash stuff cluttering up a toolbox) Thanks. I will definitely do that. The only issue I'd raise with LFS in this day and age is that many of these guides tend to leave out stuff like devtmpfs, udev, policykit, and so on. Some people choose not to use them (this list probably being one of the larger collections of such folks), but it is increasingly important to understand how modern distros actually operate. Are there any LFS-like guides that actually utilize dbus/etc? -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On 25 June 2015 at 14:56, Rich Freeman ri...@gentoo.org wrote: The only issue I'd raise with LFS in this day and age is that many of these guides tend to leave out stuff like devtmpfs, udev, policykit, and so on. Some people choose not to use them (this list probably being one of the larger collections of such folks), but it is increasingly important to understand how modern distros actually operate. Are there any LFS-like guides that actually utilize dbus/etc? -- Rich You're misinformed, actually. The base guide (LFS proper) focuses on building just a base working system (a @system, so to speak) capable of booting, connecting to the web, and building whatever you may want to install upon that. It uses eudev, by the way, although there is a version based on systemd which, from my understanding, is considered to be a non-default one. Dbus, policykit, Xorg, WMs, DEs etc. are all in the BLFS guide (Beyond LFS), which by nature is not a linear guide but more like a collection of recipes from which to choose and pick. -- Emanuele Rusconi
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On 24/06/2015 13:50, Alec Ten Harmsel wrote: P.P.S. Also, on 1% better performance: My professor for the compilers class I took used to (maybe still does) work at Google. Apparently Google sees a 1% increase in performance as *the best thing ever*, because it can save them a bunch of money in infrastructure and power. Apparently Google are the ultimate ricers. Sounds like a case where Google already did the sensible optimizations long long ago and are now hitting the diminishing returns from the long tail. There are probably many of these and they all add up. One thing I've learned about Google's setup - there's nothing else like it out there and they are truly unique. Almost nothing Google does to optimize their setup is widely applicable to anything else :-) Take their power density. Last figures I have is they were running at 4x the kW per square foot as anyone else with a brain. This terrifies people who know about cooling. But, that's the setup and that's what Google has to work with. Now suddenly, all those lots of little improvements start to become a huge deal. So yes, ultimate ricers. Also the ultimates in riding-co-close-to-the-edge-you-fall-off-the-cliff :-) -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 16:29:14 +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote: I have moved to i3wm and USE=-* and it was not that hard. No one said it would be hard, just that it has great potential for breakage. That potential is still there. When the devs tweak default USE settings in ebuilds to make things work properly, possibly on USE flags you have never considered, everyone but you will get those fixes. -- Neil Bothwick In the begining, there was nothing. And God said Let there be light and there was light. There was still nothing, but you could see it better. pgpXgWfhDbjif.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
Alan McKinnon wrote: On 24/06/2015 13:50, Alec Ten Harmsel wrote: P.P.S. Also, on 1% better performance: My professor for the compilers class I took used to (maybe still does) work at Google. Apparently Google sees a 1% increase in performance as *the best thing ever*, because it can save them a bunch of money in infrastructure and power. Apparently Google are the ultimate ricers. Sounds like a case where Google already did the sensible optimizations long long ago and are now hitting the diminishing returns from the long tail. There are probably many of these and they all add up. One thing I've learned about Google's setup - there's nothing else like it out there and they are truly unique. Almost nothing Google does to optimize their setup is widely applicable to anything else :-) Take their power density. Last figures I have is they were running at 4x the kW per square foot as anyone else with a brain. This terrifies people who know about cooling. But, that's the setup and that's what Google has to work with. Now suddenly, all those lots of little improvements start to become a huge deal. So yes, ultimate ricers. Also the ultimates in riding-co-close-to-the-edge-you-fall-off-the-cliff :-) Do we even have a clue how many puters Google has now? I read several years ago it was like 10,000 or so. No telling what they have now. o_O Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On 24/06/2015 14:23, behrouz khosravi wrote: Here's some good advice: Don't do that. See below. Oops! I have done it and I am happy so far ! Wait a little longer :-) I predict within 2 weeks you'll be posting back about some completely baffling problem and we'll have a huge thread to help fix it for you. But such id how mailing lists work. Keep Q's advice in mind - when posting, *always* state up front in caps that you have over-ridden USE That's a bit of a nonsensical line of thought, as what you think you want doesn't really exist. I think you misunderstood me! for example adding CPU specific flags is a good idea right? Getting your flags right for your CPU is always a very good idea, it's one of the main things Gentoo is built for. Binary distros can't easily do this for you (way too many variations) but a source-distro like Gentoo can do it with ease. It is a very good example of where a source distro truly shines and a valid case of optimizing your binaries. It's the exact opposite of ricing. I meant something like that. For example is it wise to enable opengl flag globally ? is it helpful to do so? If you need opengl, enable it. If you don't need opengl, disable it. If you have some softare that *requires* opengl to work, well then you better enable it. There's no correct answer to your question, you should instead be asking Do I need and/or want opengl? and before that ask What is opengl anyway? No doubt a bunch of folks will weigh in here telling you why opengl is/isn't an awesome idea. But you still have to ask and answer those questions for yourself. What do you recommend ? DO NOT SET USE=-* As I said before I have done it and I totally recommend it to anyone interested to get a better understanding of user land. For experts, yes. To be blunt, you are not an expert, not even close. But hey, it's your system and your time you'll expend. If you break it, you get to keep all the little tiny shards. Pick a profile that suits what you want to use the computer for. You have a desktop? Pick a suitable desktop profile. Don't pick a KDE one unless oyu use KDE for instance (all that does is set some KDE flags (like semantic-desktop or baloo or whatever they call it now) and force some KDE packages to be merged. It doesn't change the underlying way things work. desktop profiles are very big for my taste. In fact I have been using KDE for about a year on the default (basic) profile. I have compiled the KDE with KDE profile and I have witnessed the differences with my own eyes. And what difference is that? There is very little difference between a desktop profile with KDE installed, and a KDE profile that includes KDE. I have firefox installed. It runs. There isn't a firefox profile but if there was, I expect to see very little difference between that and what I currently have. Unless you are complaining about a profile that emerged every known KDE app under the sun, when what you actually wanted was just the few KDE apps you really use minus all the semantic desktop and akonadi fluff. There's a huge difference there. That's how my main machine is set up, and why I don't use the KDE profile. I very much doubt you can increase security by picking some USE flags. There is no USE=open-me-up-to-the-world or USE=rock-solid-nsa-proff-tight USE flags :-) So what security features do you need or want? Figure that out and then set the system up to provide that. You will get what you want. Well I know there is no USE flag like that! I am not that stupid but I remember that I have read somewhere(unfortunately I dont remember where) that disabling some use flags will degrade the security of system. Of course that can happen, but it's nowhere near as simple as you imply. As with everything else in life, the truth is always considerably more complex than you think. USE does not enable or disable security. USE enables or disables specific features in software, usually features that are configured at build time. These features can have side-effects that relate to security. Or to accessibility. Or to look and feel. Or to semantic desktop fluff. Or to the ability to print. Or to any other aspect of software you care to mention. Take for example PAM - that's a security-related optional feature. You can disable it entirely if you like but then you lose the security features of PAM (specifically, the ability to specify exactly how you want authentication and authorization to be done leaving you only with the basic username/password scheme). Maybe you want that, maybe you don't. But nobody can tell you that the setting of the USE flag will improve or degrade your security stance. It's just not that simple. You have to look at the flag, and understand what it means. Then look at the software that uses it and understand what difference it
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On 25/06/2015 10:27, Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On 24/06/2015 13:50, Alec Ten Harmsel wrote: P.P.S. Also, on 1% better performance: My professor for the compilers class I took used to (maybe still does) work at Google. Apparently Google sees a 1% increase in performance as *the best thing ever*, because it can save them a bunch of money in infrastructure and power. Apparently Google are the ultimate ricers. Sounds like a case where Google already did the sensible optimizations long long ago and are now hitting the diminishing returns from the long tail. There are probably many of these and they all add up. One thing I've learned about Google's setup - there's nothing else like it out there and they are truly unique. Almost nothing Google does to optimize their setup is widely applicable to anything else :-) Take their power density. Last figures I have is they were running at 4x the kW per square foot as anyone else with a brain. This terrifies people who know about cooling. But, that's the setup and that's what Google has to work with. Now suddenly, all those lots of little improvements start to become a huge deal. So yes, ultimate ricers. Also the ultimates in riding-co-close-to-the-edge-you-fall-off-the-cliff :-) Do we even have a clue how many puters Google has now? I read several years ago it was like 10,000 or so. No telling what they have now. o_O Around 2006, it was at least 100,000 You are out by an order of magnitude :-) I would not be surprised if today Google had 5 million custom-built stripped-down motherboards in production. Google long ago moved past the idea of having individual computers. By all accounts they have many large systems, and those systems are made up of lots of small parts - each part being a thing with CPU/RAM/disks and whatever. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On 25/06/2015 06:25, Jc García wrote: 2015-06-24 6:23 GMT-06:00 behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com: Here's some good advice: Don't do that. See below. Oops! I have done it and I am happy so far ! That's a bit of a nonsensical line of thought, as what you think you want doesn't really exist. I think you misunderstood me! for example adding CPU specific flags is a good idea right? I meant something like that. For example is it wise to enable opengl flag globally ? is it helpful to do so? What do you recommend ? DO NOT SET USE=-* As I said before I have done it and I totally recommend it to anyone interested to get a better understanding of user land. I don't see the point of using USE=-* for learning, if you want to really learn, create and overlay and make your own profile, read the developer documentation about it, and do a proper thing, not some clunky mess in /etc/portage. You could very well evaluate the basic profile, and part from there or modify it as you see fit, but making a mess that you wont be able to port easily in case you actually make something you might want to keep and reproduce somewhere else, is not getting a better understanding. Best way I ever found to learn how things really work under the hood is to build a Linux From Scratch and pay close attention to every single step. Not that you'd ever actually *use* that system - there's no sane package management for a start - but after building an LFS, the content of ebuilds in @system starts to make a lot more sense; you can see why some of the decisions in the profiles were made; and make.conf now appears in a whole new light. Then take the valuable lessons from LFS and apply them appropriately to using Gentoo. These things are tools and the best workmen are always very familiar with their tools as a co-ordinated whole (as opposed to a bunch of mish-mash stuff cluttering up a toolbox) -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 01:13:40PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: On 23/06/2015 15:05, behrouz khosravi wrote: Hello everyone. I really like to have control over my machine as much as possible. In this way I will learn a lot, so I am trying to remove all the default use flags and control them manually. Here's some good advice: Don't do that. See below. Nonsense - do that. If your goal is to learn how stuff works and you're already reasonably familiar with C/C++ so you can debug any strange errors that can happen, have fun. Just don't think you'll get any real work done ;). i.e. it might be good to do this in a virtual machine and still have a stable system for work. I just don't know which global use flags are absolutely necessary to the system to make it snappier or secure. That's a bit of a nonsensical line of thought, as what you think you want doesn't really exist. ... Put -march=native in CFLAGS Yes. Also, properly setting CPU_FLAGS_X86 is another thing that can speed up software *if* said software supports any special instruction sets. Most normal desktop software like web browsers, email clients, terminals, editors, etc. probably will not get a whole lot of benefit either way, since most of this software is generally not CPU-bound and is instead network/disk bound. In the mornings I primarily use my desktop for reading email and browsing news with firefox (mostly on sites with minimal JavaScript), and I have yet to see my load averages climb higher than maybe 0.5. Any software that does anything requiring lots of math will get a boost from this type of stuff, though; graphics editing, most things in sci-* categories, audio/video transcoding, etc. Alec P.S. Just realized I don't have -march=native in my CFLAGS. Time to rice - could be getting 1% better performance. ;) P.P.S. Also, on 1% better performance: My professor for the compilers class I took used to (maybe still does) work at Google. Apparently Google sees a 1% increase in performance as *the best thing ever*, because it can save them a bunch of money in infrastructure and power. Apparently Google are the ultimate ricers.
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
Here's some good advice: Don't do that. See below. Oops! I have done it and I am happy so far ! That's a bit of a nonsensical line of thought, as what you think you want doesn't really exist. I think you misunderstood me! for example adding CPU specific flags is a good idea right? I meant something like that. For example is it wise to enable opengl flag globally ? is it helpful to do so? What do you recommend ? DO NOT SET USE=-* As I said before I have done it and I totally recommend it to anyone interested to get a better understanding of user land. Pick a profile that suits what you want to use the computer for. You have a desktop? Pick a suitable desktop profile. Don't pick a KDE one unless oyu use KDE for instance (all that does is set some KDE flags (like semantic-desktop or baloo or whatever they call it now) and force some KDE packages to be merged. It doesn't change the underlying way things work. desktop profiles are very big for my taste. In fact I have been using KDE for about a year on the default (basic) profile. I have compiled the KDE with KDE profile and I have witnessed the differences with my own eyes. I very much doubt you can increase security by picking some USE flags. There is no USE=open-me-up-to-the-world or USE=rock-solid-nsa-proff-tight USE flags :-) So what security features do you need or want? Figure that out and then set the system up to provide that. You will get what you want. Well I know there is no USE flag like that! I am not that stupid but I remember that I have read somewhere(unfortunately I dont remember where) that disabling some use flags will degrade the security of system.
RE: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
behrouz khosravi wrote: Hello everyone. I really like to have control over my machine as much as possible. In this way I will learn a lot, so I am trying to remove all the default use flags and control them manually. I just don't know which global use flags are absolutely necessary to the system to make it snappier or secure. What do you recommend ? Thanks Oh, USE-Flags are so boing :( They are documented well (quse -D $FLAG), you can even look into specific ebuilds what they actually do. If you want to learn Gentoo the hard way I suggest to emerge -C python. or emerge -C glibc (yeah, glibc is gnome, and I hate gnome! Whoops, it was glib, not glibc... errr) Or install certain packages by hand (make install) into /usr/local and forget about it. (Before someone asks: Those are issues people actually had in the forums and it's really hard to track them down or fix them, you will learn quite a bit about your system ;)...) To be more serious: * Set a minimal basic profile (as already suggested) * Tune your USE-Flags in make.conf. media-related flags (mp3, flac) should be harmless, if you touch flags that get used in core packages (e.g. in the toolchain) double (or triple) check if you don't do evil things. * fine tune USE-Flags on a per-package-base via /etc/portage/package.use
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On 23/06/2015 15:05, behrouz khosravi wrote: Hello everyone. I really like to have control over my machine as much as possible. In this way I will learn a lot, so I am trying to remove all the default use flags and control them manually. Here's some good advice: Don't do that. See below. I just don't know which global use flags are absolutely necessary to the system to make it snappier or secure. That's a bit of a nonsensical line of thought, as what you think you want doesn't really exist. Long ago (like 2004) there were a bunch of really stupid fanboy Gentoo users[1] without any clue at all who thought they could make their system race along at faster-than-light speed by tweaking flags. What they actually did was 1. usually slow it down and 2. break it completely with insane compiler flags (like -O9[2]) The single most significant thing you can do to your system to avoid it being slow (note, I did NOT say make it fast) is to select an appropriate CPU type for the compiler to build with. All other optimizations tend to be insignificant compared to just this one thing. Put -march=native in CFLAGS What do you recommend ? DO NOT SET USE=-* This is only useful for people who want a profile that Gentoo does not provide or assemble a system in a way that Gentoo isn't built for. Or people who really know what they are doing and why. You are nowhere near this category. Pick a profile that suits what you want to use the computer for. You have a desktop? Pick a suitable desktop profile. Don't pick a KDE one unless oyu use KDE for instance (all that does is set some KDE flags (like semantic-desktop or baloo or whatever they call it now) and force some KDE packages to be merged. It doesn't change the underlying way things work. Then look at what you have. You never print? Don't install cups or set it's flag. etc, etc, etc I very much doubt you can increase security by picking some USE flags. There is no USE=open-me-up-to-the-world or USE=rock-solid-nsa-proff-tight USE flags :-) So what security features do you need or want? Figure that out and then set the system up to provide that. You will get what you want. It's a lot like starting a restaurant, and wondering what must go on the menu. First state what kind of restaurant, then the menu is easy. If you have a fancy French place, you don't sell pizza and don't need the oven. Got a small cozy like bistro place? Then you DO need a pizza oven. See? You can't answer the menu question till you know what kind of place. Thanks [1] Lucky for us, they all moved on to other distros. Most folks left behind in Gentoo now understand their systems well [2] Which doesn't actually exist -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 01:13:40PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: On 23/06/2015 15:05, behrouz khosravi wrote: Hello everyone. I really like to have control over my machine as much as possible. In this way I will learn a lot, so I am trying to remove all the default use flags and control them manually. Here's some good advice: Don't do that. See below. Nonsense - do that. If your goal is to learn how stuff works and you're already reasonably familiar with C/C++ so you can debug any strange errors that can happen, have fun. Just don't think you'll get any real work done ;). i.e. it might be good to do this in a virtual machine and still have a stable system for work. I just don't know which global use flags are absolutely necessary to the system to make it snappier or secure. That's a bit of a nonsensical line of thought, as what you think you want doesn't really exist. ... Put -march=native in CFLAGS Yes. Also, properly setting CPU_FLAGS_X86 is another thing that can speed up software *if* said software supports any special instruction sets. Most normal desktop software like web browsers, email clients, terminals, editors, etc. probably will not get a whole lot of benefit either way, since most of this software is generally not CPU-bound and is instead network/disk bound. In the mornings I primarily use my desktop for reading email and browsing news with firefox (mostly on sites with minimal JavaScript), and I have yet to see my load averages climb higher than maybe 0.5. Any software that does anything requiring lots of math will get a boost from this type of stuff, though; graphics editing, most things in sci-* categories, audio/video transcoding, etc. Alec P.S. Just realized I don't have -march=native in my CFLAGS. Time to rice - could be getting 1% better performance. ;) P.P.S. Also, on 1% better performance: My professor for the compilers class I took used to (maybe still does) work at Google. Apparently Google sees a 1% increase in performance as *the best thing ever*, because it can save them a bunch of money in infrastructure and power. Apparently Google are the ultimate ricers.
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
To be more serious: * Set a minimal basic profile (as already suggested) * Tune your USE-Flags in make.conf. media-related flags (mp3, flac) should be harmless, if you touch flags that get used in core packages (e.g. in the toolchain) double (or triple) check if you don't do evil things. * fine tune USE-Flags on a per-package-base via /etc/portage/package.use thanks. well what you mentioned was my set up until a week ago. I was on the default profile. Afterwards I installed the other stuff let the portage take care of missing use flags, and to be honest it was the first time in my short linux life that I didnt hate KDE!(I hate the deign choices of GNOME, and I thinks KDE have a good design with bad implementation!) In my opinion it was way better that the KDE profile. I have moved to i3wm and USE=-* and it was not that hard. My concern was the use flags that are better to be enabled globally like bzip2.
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 01:13:40PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: On 23/06/2015 15:05, behrouz khosravi wrote: Hello everyone. I really like to have control over my machine as much as possible. In this way I will learn a lot, so I am trying to remove all the default use flags and control them manually. Here's some good advice: Don't do that. See below. Nonsense - do that. If your goal is to learn how stuff works and you're already reasonably familiar with C/C++ so you can debug any strange errors that can happen, have fun. Just don't think you'll get any real work done ;). i.e. it might be good to do this in a virtual machine and still have a stable system for work. I just don't know which global use flags are absolutely necessary to the system to make it snappier or secure. That's a bit of a nonsensical line of thought, as what you think you want doesn't really exist. ... Put -march=native in CFLAGS Yes. Also, properly setting CPU_FLAGS_X86 is another thing that can speed up software *if* said software supports any special instruction sets. Most normal desktop software like web browsers, email clients, terminals, editors, etc. probably will not get a whole lot of benefit either way, since most of this software is generally not CPU-bound and is instead network/disk bound. In the mornings I primarily use my desktop for reading email and browsing news with firefox (mostly on sites with minimal JavaScript), and I have yet to see my load averages climb higher than maybe 0.5. Any software that does anything requiring lots of math will get a boost from this type of stuff, though; graphics editing, most things in sci-* categories, audio/video transcoding, etc. Alec P.S. Just realized I don't have -march=native in my CFLAGS. Time to rice - could be getting 1% better performance. ;) P.P.S. Also, on 1% better performance: My professor for the compilers class I took used to (maybe still does) work at Google. Apparently Google sees a 1% increase in performance as *the best thing ever*, because it can save them a bunch of money in infrastructure and power. Apparently Google are the ultimate ricers.
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
2015-06-24 6:23 GMT-06:00 behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com: Here's some good advice: Don't do that. See below. Oops! I have done it and I am happy so far ! That's a bit of a nonsensical line of thought, as what you think you want doesn't really exist. I think you misunderstood me! for example adding CPU specific flags is a good idea right? I meant something like that. For example is it wise to enable opengl flag globally ? is it helpful to do so? What do you recommend ? DO NOT SET USE=-* As I said before I have done it and I totally recommend it to anyone interested to get a better understanding of user land. I don't see the point of using USE=-* for learning, if you want to really learn, create and overlay and make your own profile, read the developer documentation about it, and do a proper thing, not some clunky mess in /etc/portage. You could very well evaluate the basic profile, and part from there or modify it as you see fit, but making a mess that you wont be able to port easily in case you actually make something you might want to keep and reproduce somewhere else, is not getting a better understanding.
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 04:53:18PM +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote What do you recommend ? DO NOT SET USE=-* As I said before I have done it and I totally recommend it to anyone interested to get a better understanding of user land. The point with USE=-* is to create your own base profile. E.g. when I upgraded my old Dell Core2 Duo from 32 to 64 bit Gentoo, I dropped USE=-*. I went from... USE_BASE=-* a52 aac bzip2 cxx fortran ncurses netifrc nptl nptlonly nsplugin offensive openssl posix readline ssl threads vim-syntax zlib X dga dri exif ffmpeg flac classic gif intel jpeg mng mp3 mpeg ogg opengl png rtmp theora tiff truetype vorbis xcomposite webm x264 xpm xv xvid xvmc ...to... USE=X apng bindist ffmpeg jpeg png truetype xorg -acl -berkdb -chatzilla -cracklib -crypt -gallium -gdbm -gmp-autoupdate -gstreamer -iconv -introspection -ipc -iptables -ipv6 -libav -llvm -nls -openmp -pam -roaming -sendmail -tcpd -udev -unicode So I went from -* plus add a lot of USE flags to default/linux/amd64/13.0/no-multilib and negating a lot of USE flags. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:45:58 +0200, David Haller wrote: You can also start USE with -* in make.conf to turn everything off then set your own choices. This is the ideal setup for those who prefer to spend more time fixing their computer than using it. Hah! Hey, I got no printer, had others print about 5 pages for me in ~10 years. Why would I want cups? You do know that only the desktop profiles include cups as a default USE flag? The one I recommended does not. -- Neil Bothwick WindowError:01B Illegal error. Do NOT get this error. pgpnBgF7RIvxW.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
Hello,
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Neil Bothwick wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 17:35:10 +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote:
I really like to have control over my machine as much as possible. In
this way I will learn a lot, so I am trying to remove all the default
use flags and control them manually.
[..]
You can also start USE with -* in make.conf to turn everything off then
set your own choices. This is the ideal setup for those who prefer to
spend more time fixing their computer than using it.
Hah!
# find /usr/local/portage/*/ -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type d | wc -l
55
Hey, I got no printer, had others print about 5 pages for me in ~10
years. Why would I want cups? And BTW: qtwebkit:5 compiles just fine
without leveldb (with a little -D help)...
--- /usr/portage/dev-qt/qtwebkit/qtwebkit-5.4.2.ebuild 2015-06-17
17:24:04.0 +0200
+++ /usr/local/portage/dev-qt/qtwebkit/qtwebkit-5.4.2.ebuild 2015-06-23
07:05:01.823067740 +0200
@@ -14,13 +14,13 @@
# TODO: qttestlib, geolocation, orientation/sensors
-IUSE=gstreamer gstreamer010 multimedia opengl printsupport qml udev webp
+IUSE=gstreamer gstreamer010 multimedia opengl printsupport qml udev webp
leveldb
REQUIRED_USE=?? ( gstreamer gstreamer010 multimedia )
RDEPEND=
dev-db/sqlite:3
dev-libs/icu:=
- =dev-libs/leveldb-1.18-r1
+ leveldb? ( =dev-libs/leveldb-1.18-r1 )
dev-libs/libxml2:2
dev-libs/libxslt
=dev-qt/qtcore-${PV}:5[icu]
@@ -88,6 +88,9 @@
use webp || sed -i -e '/config_libwebp: WEBKIT_CONFIG +=
use_webp/d' \
Tools/qmake/mkspecs/features/features.prf || die
+ use leveldb || sed -i -e
's/ENABLE_INDEXED_DATABASE=1/ENABLE_INDEXED_DATABASE=0/' \
+ Tools/qmake/mkspecs/features/features.pri || die
+
# bug 458222
sed -i -e '/SUBDIRS += examples/d' Source/QtWebKit.pro || die
As I hate cmake, I don't know if there's a better way to inject that
ENABLE_INDEXED_DATABASE=0 or something to that into the build process.
It works, I'm happy ;) Oh, and BTW, mozillen (via mozconfig) work just
fine without a spellchecker. Which I hate and never use. They distract
more and introduce errors that anything else, so I patch
eclass/mozconfig-*.eclass. BTW2: how can I overlay my eclass stuff
over the /usr/portage one? ATM, I just copy it over after each sync.
-dnh, minimalist, obviously ;)
--
my other signature is more intellectual
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 17:35:10 +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote: I really like to have control over my machine as much as possible. In this way I will learn a lot, so I am trying to remove all the default use flags and control them manually. I just don't know which global use flags are absolutely necessary to the system to make it snappier or secure. What do you recommend ? Use a minimal profile like default/linux/amd64/13.0 which will set only the USE flags most people need. From there you can disable individual flags if you think you don't need them. You can also start USE with -* in make.conf to turn everything off then set your own choices. This is the ideal setup for those who prefer to spend more time fixing their computer than using it. -- Neil Bothwick A man needs a mistress - just to break the monogamy pgpw9mjcLypNH.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 18:35:32 +0200, David Haller wrote: You do know that only the desktop profiles include cups as a default USE flag? The one I recommended does not. Try compiling icedtea, libreoffice, scribus and whatnot without pulling in cups, no matter the use-flags. And sabotaging the ebuild and buildsystem to not use cups leads to failed builds, BT,TriedThat :(( The OP wanted to set up a snappier system. Java and LibreOffice are not the first programs that spring to mind when I think snappier... Why does a GUI (a USER INTERFACE Toolkit fer f*** sake! Not a Printer Interface!) _ALWAYS_ be able to print (if I interpret the AWT right)? That's just dumb. No argument there. [1] speaking of that: I noticed, that when I bork[2] an ebuild in /usr/local/portage, it gets silently(!) ignored and the one from /usr/portage is used. The only indication is the flag on the package e.g. ::gentoo vs. ::local. Only once I move the gentoo ebuilds into e.g. the .attic subfolder, emerge tells me what's actually wrong with my ::local ebuild in /usr/local/portage. Have I overlooked an option of emerge or is that a bug? ebuild /usr/local/portage/cat/pkg/pkg-x.y.ebuild merge will use the specific ebuild you give it. -- Neil Bothwick Got kleptomania? Be sure to take something for it. pgpIWvnAOgb58.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
Hello, On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:45:58 +0200, David Haller wrote: You can also start USE with -* in make.conf to turn everything off then set your own choices. This is the ideal setup for those who prefer to spend more time fixing their computer than using it. Hey, I got no printer, had others print about 5 pages for me in ~10 years. Why would I want cups? You do know that only the desktop profiles include cups as a default USE flag? The one I recommended does not. Try compiling icedtea, libreoffice, scribus and whatnot without pulling in cups, no matter the use-flags. And sabotaging the ebuild and buildsystem to not use cups leads to failed builds, BT,TriedThat :(( ATM, I just juggle it around. Install cups/cups-filter/ghostscript with cups-flag, build icedtea/libreoffice/scribus, remove cups/cups-filter, rebuild ghostscript without cups and ignore any dependency errors on cups ;-P I do not care one bit about printing not working, as long as the programs run. Speaking of that, is there a gentoo-way, to link _some_ specific libs (cups) statically to a program that won't run without it? I don't care about a 'emerge cups/build program and link statically to cups/unmerge cups' cycle. Oh, yes, I did search on gentoo.org and generally, apparently, icedtea just won't build without cups. icedtea-bin also yammers for cups: !!! existing preserved libs: package: net-print/cups-2.0.2-r1 * - /usr/lib64/libcups.so.2 * used by /opt/icedtea-bin-7.2.5.3/jre/lib/amd64/headless/libmawt.so (dev-java/icedtea-bin-7.2.5.3) * used by /opt/icedtea-bin-7.2.5.3/jre/lib/amd64/xawt/libmawt.so (dev-java/icedtea-bin-7.2.5.3) * used by /usr/bin/scribus (app-office/scribus-1.5.0-r1) * used by 2 other files As long as programs run, I'll get the big stick ;) Scribus seems to work. Still gotta test the Java stuff ... Moving stuff to a subfolder like .attic works nicely though in such cases, also inside */portage/*[1] for ebuilds ;) All this is not a problem with gentoo, it's a problem with upstream. Why does a GUI (a USER INTERFACE Toolkit fer f*** sake! Not a Printer Interface!) _ALWAYS_ be able to print (if I interpret the AWT right)? That's just dumb. Oh well, not your problem, but I fear the patch to remove the cups dep would be large and tedious at best to maintain which is why the icedtea maintainers gave up on it, as far as I've found. *sigh* Anyway, I still got some questions about JDKs on gentoo, but that's for another day and another thread. BTW: I might sound like an ass demanding stuff, it's just that I'm a old-time (15+ years) of roll-your-own-package guy, just not really on gentoo thus far. Actually, systemd beyond an init was the point where I said to myself: no way. I've been reading this list for quite a while now (a bit in 2010, then very little, and now quite a lot), and I've already got e.g. you and Neil (just from today) on my like list, so to speak, always helpful, patient ... Been doing that kind of support elsewhere for a long time too, so I much appreciate you doing it here and help me with pointers. Sorry, I'm having such a go at you, feel free to point me to documentation (even vaguely, just a good search word), to another thread etc. pp. I admit, I haven't searched for [1][2], but the other stuff I did at least a site search on gentoo.org. Thanks, -dnh PS: I hope I'll soon get into the roll and co-maintain that odd package here or there ;) I've been maintaining packages elsewhere, and ebuild stuff looks quite straightforward, I'm just still running into details a bit too often for my taste. [1] speaking of that: I noticed, that when I bork[2] an ebuild in /usr/local/portage, it gets silently(!) ignored and the one from /usr/portage is used. The only indication is the flag on the package e.g. ::gentoo vs. ::local. Only once I move the gentoo ebuilds into e.g. the .attic subfolder, emerge tells me what's actually wrong with my ::local ebuild in /usr/local/portage. Have I overlooked an option of emerge or is that a bug? [2] trivial stuff. Using 'foo? ( =libfoo-1.2.3 )' without adding foo to IUSE, or missing the () around the dep after the useflag... That's those I run into most often so far ;) And emerge even tells you about it once you disable the ::gentoo main portage ;) -- Getting a penguin to pee on demand is _messy_. -- Linus Torvalds
Re: [gentoo-user] necessary use flgas
Hello, On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 18:35:32 +0200, David Haller wrote: You do know that only the desktop profiles include cups as a default USE flag? The one I recommended does not. Try compiling icedtea, libreoffice, scribus and whatnot without pulling in cups, no matter the use-flags. And sabotaging the ebuild and buildsystem to not use cups leads to failed builds, BT,TriedThat :(( The OP wanted to set up a snappier system. Java and LibreOffice are not the first programs that spring to mind when I think snappier... Well, I use LaTeX anyway for office, but one needs stuff that mom is used to, so one can talk her through stuff, eh? And Java? There's e.g. tvbrowser and MediathekView. No need to talk about snappy but I digressed from the OP anyway already. I just happily jumped on the topic of leaving stuff out that one doesn't need. And generally stuff you don't have installed cannot be attacked, esp. such ubiquitously used stuff as cups (used by MacOS/iOS too), is an important attack vector less installed. Actually: mom uses libreoffice-calc to edit a .csv file, that is then fed to a perl-script by me (via a couple of links on the XFCE/formerly WinXP Desktop (via a .cmd batch) calling it differently), that generates a LaTeX file using labels.sty that is fed to pdflatex and spits out a PDF to be printed on labels, and even starting a pdf-viewer to check it before printing ;) Worked just like a charm for, ah, about 7+ years without any maintanece required, but recentenly, mom must've borked up the charset on saving multiply, probably due to changed defaults in libreoffice, looked like double encoded utf8, but was borked even beyond that. Manually fixing it turned out to be the least work. *Gah*. As mom wanted to weed out outdated stuff anyway, she did it, but we talked about it and I'd had done it. Except from that, mom writes her letters and stuff with -writer, and has been doing so since 199x (then with StarOffice). Why does a GUI (a USER INTERFACE Toolkit fer f*** sake! Not a Printer Interface!) _ALWAYS_ be able to print (if I interpret the AWT right)? That's just dumb. No argument there. *MEH* :) Yeah, there's a couple of dumb deps by upstream, that are not configurable and not even easily patched out (I think I have one where I could patch, but usually, it's too hardwired in, so to speak). Makes you want to grab a fish (fresh from Lutetia), and slap the culprit around the head with it ... And boy! Are we in for something getting systemd hardwired as a dep ... *cringe* [1] speaking of that: I noticed, that when I bork[2] an ebuild in /usr/local/portage, it gets silently(!) ignored and the one from /usr/portage is used. The only indication is the flag on the package e.g. ::gentoo vs. ::local. Only once I move the gentoo ebuilds into e.g. the .attic subfolder, emerge tells me what's actually wrong with my ::local ebuild in /usr/local/portage. Have I overlooked an option of emerge or is that a bug? ebuild /usr/local/portage/cat/pkg/pkg-x.y.ebuild merge will use the specific ebuild you give it. Got to alias/script that! But it is a clumsy workaround. As your local overlay (or any with a higher precedence) should override the base, emerge should at least tell you about the problem with the overlay, and then e.g. ask to emerge the base (/usr/portage), or abort. How about it? I consider it a bug (unless I and Neil overlooked a switch to emerge, and even then, I'd be for a different default of that, as hey, if I do an overlay, I want to be told if I borked anything there, not just almost quietly ignored, but anyways not told the actual error, until I remove the /usr/portage version (again: missed option to emerge?)) @all: What's your take on this? Have I (and Neil?) missed an option? or has emerge a sort of a bug? -dnh, who has not yet ever looked at emerge code, but guessing it should not be much of a problem emitting the errors in the overlay and some simple handling afterwards ;) -- vi, pr.n. A computer program designed to stress-test the use of modal bleeping.
