Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:33:25 +0100, Holly Bostick wrote: Hogwash. What's so hard about it, as opposed to any other Linux distro, once you get past the install issue? Try plugging in a wireless NIC. It's not hard to set on up manually when you know what you are doing, but other distros will take care of this automatically. Gentoo has to be harder to use than other distros, you can't have full control over the system and still have it do things automatically for you. -- Neil Bothwick We secretly replaced the dilithium with Folgers Crystals signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Gentoo has to be harder to use than other distros, you can't have full control over the system and still have it do things automatically for you. I could not of said it any better. And of the distros I have used Gentoo is the best, although not my first. And I would not recommend it to novice unless they had/want a lot of time learning My 2 cents ;) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:40:02 +0100, Holly Bostick wrote: Myself, I don't consider that either a stage 1 or stage 3 leaves me with more than a minimally functional system after the initial install, but a stage 3 leaves me with a *higher functioning* minimal install than a stage 1 does. A stage 3 install doesn't give you any more than a stage 1. all it means is you skip some laborious and time-consuming steps in the handbook, you end up in the same place. But at least after a stage 3, I don't have to be *uncomfortable* while I'm waiting to get my system up to my personal spec-- I can still *use* Mozilla, even if it's compiled with Mail, and Composer, and IRC, while I wait for it to recompile with the -moz*** USE flags. You can't, stage 3 doesn't even include X. However, you can use the GRP packages with a stage 3 installation, because the flags are all at default, so you can merge your preferred DE, mail and browser as binary packages in a few minutes. If you like ~arch, you don't even need an emerge --emptytree after the system is running, as emerge -uDN world after changing KEYWORDS and USE will update just about everything anyway. -- Neil Bothwick Any program which runs right is obsolete. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
On 11/22/05, Robin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gentoo has to be harder to use than other distros, you can't have full control over the system and still have it do things automatically for you. Exactly, the computer can do amazing things, but in order to keep it clean, specific and optmized, human intervention is crucial, its the reason I have a job :) you just can't have a stable, reliable and highly optmized system without messing with config files by hand. What you can do is leave the work for the computer and it will give you a general good option. General is not good enough for me, that's the main reason I use Gentoo. I could not of said it any better. And of the distros I have used Gentoo is the best, although not my first. And I would not recommend it to novice unless they had/want a lot of time learning My 2 cents ;) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- Daniel da Veiga Computer Operator - RS - Brazil -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK- Version: 3.1 GCM/IT/P/O d-? s:- a? C++$ UBLA++ P+ L++ E--- W+++$ N o+ K- w O M- V- PS PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+++ R+* tv b+ DI+++ D+ G+ e h+ r+ y++ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK-- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Neil Bothwick wrote: Try plugging in a wireless NIC. It's not hard to set on up manually when you know what you are doing, but other distros will take care of this automatically. Perhaps if you're using WEP it's easier on a binary distro, but if you're using WPA-PSK it's a lot easier on Gentoo. Just edit wpa_supplicant.conf to enter your pre-shared key, and add modules=(wpa_supplicant) wlan0=(dhcp) in /etc/conf.d/net The other distros I tried all had long HOWTOs (complete with editing system scripts as opposed to just editing configuration files) on how to make sure wpa_supplicant would start before the interface came up. -- Manuel A. McLure KE6TAW [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mclure.org ...for in Ulthar, according to an ancient and significant law, no man may kill a cat. -- H.P. Lovecraft -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
The last top posting/html thread was 3 weeks ago... so yes it's time for another Keep Gentoo leet thread. Gentoo isn't about pain, it's about getting work done. Anything, and I mean *anything*, that allows me to spend less time working and more time having a life is a good thing. Therefore we can deduce that anyone who wants a harder install is a hobbyist, dilettante, and a dabbler. no, I want an installation, that filters out everybody too dumb to read the fucking manual. Because this people are also too dumb to read: the nvidia/ati instructions and spam the mailing lists and forums with their non-problems, causing time and bandwith wasted. the alsa-guide. Again, their dumbness causes pain for others the gcc manpages. Instead, they will use some stupid, braindead useflags they found in the forums (like ffast-math or -funroll-all-loops) because some other idiot told them, that this are 'cool' 'fast' flags. In short: stupid non-readers are causing pain. Making the world and everything easier for them, is more pain for the people clever enough to READ and FOLLOW the guides and instructions. Idiots should use distris for idiots. There are enough out there. Why turn gentoo in one too? -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote: Therefore we can deduce that anyone who wants a harder install is a hobbyist, dilettante, and a dabbler. no, I want an installation, that filters out everybody too dumb to read the fucking manual. Or the FAQ? Where it's described how to do a stage1/2 equivalent install from a stage3. -- Naga -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote: no, I want an installation, that filters out everybody too dumb to read the fucking manual. I understand where you are coming from, however, without people willing to push the envelope and try new things, nothing will innovated will happen. While being an expert on such matters definitely helps, by no means does that mean that accidents don't innovate. Look at penicillin, and various other inventions. Stub your toe on an install a few times, and you'll learn a LOT. Granted, if you keep stubbing your toe then expect to get kill filed. What is the saying? Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, while always expecting a different outcome. yeah.. something like that. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
On 11/22/05, Nagatoro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote: Therefore we can deduce that anyone who wants a harder install is a hobbyist, dilettante, and a dabbler. no, I want an installation, that filters out everybody too dumb to read the fucking manual. Or the FAQ? Where it's described how to do a stage1/2 equivalent install from a stage3. Gentoo is widely documented, and if you can read, most answers are already at the wikis, howtos, gentoo docs and mailing lists, add to this the foruns and user groups. Gentoo has a knowledge base that can make you solve most problems, of course, if its one of those HARD issues, you can always ask, but then again, those are 10% (if all of that) from our traffic. So, yes, the install was a how to read and follow the manual teaching, and stage3 is easier and taught less than stage1, but hey, its faster and have less side effects, and besides, if you can get a stage1 from a stage3, who cares?! But again, we'll have lots of RTFM and STFW in our foruns and mailing lists... If you can find the manual page, don't give them the solutions, give the link instead, teaching someone how to fish feeds for a lifetime, giving someone the fish itself only feed once. -- Naga -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- Daniel da Veiga Computer Operator - RS - Brazil -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK- Version: 3.1 GCM/IT/P/O d-? s:- a? C++$ UBLA++ P+ L++ E--- W+++$ N o+ K- w O M- V- PS PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+++ R+* tv b+ DI+++ D+ G+ e h+ r+ y++ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK-- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote: no, I want an installation, that filters out everybody too dumb to read the fucking manual. Where do you draw the line? Someday we're going to have real reverse dependecy checking, fixing, etc. So any idiot can blindly update x package and not have to realize that it was a major upgrade and manually check all his packages that depend on it and upgrade/rebuild those packages and restart the services. Is that too idiot proof? You say coddling idiots, I say fixing broken or overly complicated processes. On a mailing list you're going to get questions stupid and otherwise. If you're not prepared to deal with this, unsubscribe or figure out how to use the delete button. I don't use Linux as a desktop so I generally delete 60-70% of the traffic in gentoo-user. You don't have to read the entire list. Let's take yet another of my real world examples that I like to use in place of random foaming at the mouth, The Gentoo Virtual Mail How-to. It's a decent How-to if you follow it exactly. By answering a hundred or so questions related to it in the forums I've been able to fix my installation faster when it broke, upgrade without problems, know exactly what errors are caused what symptoms, and ultimately change the original flawed design to work better and safer. You say taking up space and bandwidth, I say QA testers though admittedly poorly trained. As for Gentoo being for idiots, I have a calendar at work. Every so often I mark a day a Super Genius when I think of something especially brillant. And every so often I mark a day as Befuddled by the Obvious for those days when I'm surprised that anyone actually lets me admin their network. Over the course of the year they generally total about the same. I suspect most of us are in the same boat. As long as Gentoo facilitates the Genius moments as well as keeping me a bit safer during the Befuddled moments it's striking the right balance. You say we'll let in idiots, I say we have met the enemy and it is us. kashani -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Actually, as someone who uses wireless across a number of nets, wireless on gentoo sucks hugely. Was at a presentation the other day and saw an Ubutu user just walk in, a couple of quick commands and he had connected - after much work I still cant do that to a particular no-encryption net. I am hoping the last wpa_supplicant version I have installed will make the difference - manual iwconfig does work by the way, just not via the gentoo files! A mess of config files (/etc/conf.d/wireless, /etc/conf.d/net, /etc/wpa_supplicant, ...), different versions of software work in only some combinations - only 0.4.5 (~x86) will work with 2.6.14, some other versions will do WPA_PSK, but not no encryption.- - I suspect the gentoo config design is the main stumbling block. I realise wireless is complicated (read the above files for instance, but gentoo has complicated things further (try and work out which of the above files a particular variable will work ... note that for wpa_supplicant, not all permutations are listed in the otherwise comprehensive instructions) BillK On Tue, 2005-11-22 at 09:24 -0800, Manuel McLure wrote: Neil Bothwick wrote: Try plugging in a wireless NIC. It's not hard to set on up manually when you know what you are doing, but other distros will take care of this automatically. Perhaps if you're using WEP it's easier on a binary distro, but if you're using WPA-PSK it's a lot easier on Gentoo. Just edit wpa_supplicant.conf to enter your pre-shared key, and add modules=(wpa_supplicant) wlan0=(dhcp) in /etc/conf.d/net The other distros I tried all had long HOWTOs (complete with editing system scripts as opposed to just editing configuration files) on how to make sure wpa_supplicant would start before the interface came up. -- Manuel A. McLure KE6TAW [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mclure.org ...for in Ulthar, according to an ancient and significant law, no man may kill a cat. -- H.P. Lovecraft -- William Kenworthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home! -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:24:49 -0800, Manuel McLure wrote: Try plugging in a wireless NIC. It's not hard to set on up manually when you know what you are doing, but other distros will take care of this automatically. Perhaps if you're using WEP it's easier on a binary distro, but if you're using WPA-PSK it's a lot easier on Gentoo. Just edit wpa_supplicant.conf to enter your pre-shared key Don't forget recompiling your kernel to include the necessary support, Googling to find out which drivers to use and emerging them, etc. -- Neil Bothwick She's always late. Her ancestors arrived on the June flower. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
William Kenworthy wrote: Actually, as someone who uses wireless across a number of nets, wireless on gentoo sucks hugely. Was at a presentation the other day and saw an Ubutu user just walk in, a couple of quick commands and he had connected - after much work I still cant do that to a particular no-encryption net. I am hoping the last wpa_supplicant version I have installed will make the difference - manual iwconfig does work by the way, just not via the gentoo files! A mess of config files (/etc/conf.d/wireless, /etc/conf.d/net, /etc/wpa_supplicant, ...), different versions of software work in only some combinations - only 0.4.5 (~x86) will work with 2.6.14, some other versions will do WPA_PSK, but not no encryption.- - I suspect the gentoo config design is the main stumbling block. I realise wireless is complicated (read the above files for instance, but gentoo has complicated things further (try and work out which of the above files a particular variable will work ... note that for wpa_supplicant, not all permutations are listed in the otherwise comprehensive instructions) Interesting, as the distro I was specifically comparing to was Kubuntu - getting it to connect to my WPA-PSK network at home was a PITA, while Gentoo worked beautifully - emerge ndiswrapper, run ndiswrapper -i to install the driver, emerge wpa_supplicant, modify a stanza in the wpa_supplicant.conf file to reflect my SSID and PSK, and ifup wlan0. Kubuntu had no options for entering a WPA-PSK key other than manually editing the files, and you had to trick it to make sure that it ran the supplicant before trying to bring the interface up. By the way, wpa_supplicant should handle non-encrypted and WEP networks very nicely - if you use it you don't need to play around with /etc/conf.d/wireless. -- Manuel A. McLure KE6TAW [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mclure.org ...for in Ulthar, according to an ancient and significant law, no man may kill a cat. -- H.P. Lovecraft -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did a stage 1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3 u couldn't muck with your CFLAGS or what not. If I'm forced to use canned binaries I might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've never listened to the Gentoo is dead comments.. but now who knows.. this is just crazy.. who came up with this stupid idea? from the sounds of it certianly not the Gentoo Community! On 11/20/05, A. Khattri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 16 Nov 2005, Mark Knecht wrote: I will admit that I have a big concern about an upcoming MySQL update that is probably going to break my whole TV network here. Due to my fear I haven't upgraded MySQL and will likely come back ranting myself sometime in December when I'm probably forced to do it. We'll see... I have upgraded MySQL on several servers (two in production) without anyproblems whatsoever...gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:33:01 +0900, Steve B wrote: WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did a stage 1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3 u couldn't muck with your CFLAGS or what not. If I'm forced to use canned binaries I might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've never listened to the Gentoo is dead comments.. but now who knows.. this is just crazy.. who came up with this stupid idea? from the sounds of it certianly not the Gentoo Community! If you'd stayed with the original thread instead of hijacking one about MySQL, you'd know that your impression was wrong. You can change everything after a stage 3 install, although you have to be careful when changing CHOST. -- Neil Bothwick Keep your words soft and sweet in case you have to eat them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
On Mon, 2005-11-21 at 21:33 +0900, Steve B wrote: WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did a stage 1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3 u couldn't muck with your CFLAGS or what not. If I'm forced to use canned binaries I might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've never listened to the Gentoo is dead comments.. but now who knows.. this is just crazy.. who came up with this stupid idea? from the sounds of it certianly not the Gentoo Community! I think you haven't really read the discussions about this topic. As long as you don't edit bootstrap.sh, stage3-emerge sync-adapt make.conf, package.* files etc.-emerge -e world will just have the same effect as a stage1 install but - faster - with fewer pitfalls Regards, Matthias -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
On Mon, 2005-11-21 at 13:57 +0100, Matthias Langer wrote: On Mon, 2005-11-21 at 21:33 +0900, Steve B wrote: WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did a stage 1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3 u couldn't muck with your CFLAGS or what not. The only flag you should not change after a stage 3 install is CHOST. If you downloaded the right stage3 tarball there is no reason to do so unless you are cross-compiling. Note that stage1 is still available, but no longer supported by the handbook, as there is allmost no reason, even for an experienced gentoo-er not to use stage3. If I'm forced to use canned binaries I might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've never listened to the Gentoo is dead comments.. but now who knows.. this is just crazy.. who came up with this stupid idea? from the sounds of it certianly not the Gentoo Community! I think you haven't really read the discussions about this topic. As long as you don't edit bootstrap.sh, stage3-emerge sync-adapt make.conf, package.* files etc.-emerge -e world will just have the same effect as a stage1 install but - faster - with fewer pitfalls Regards, Matthias -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
On Monday 21 November 2005 13:33, Steve B wrote: WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did a stage 1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3 u couldn't muck with your CFLAGS or what not. If I'm forced to use canned binaries I might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've never listened to the Gentoo is dead comments.. but now who knows.. this is just crazy.. who came up with this stupid idea? from the sounds of it certianly not the Gentoo Community! well, it was made, because the idiots are too dumb to read and follow the stage1 instructions. And gentoo needs more idiots, right? Up until now, the installation was a nice filter - but that has weakend now, too. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Hemmann, Volker Armin schreef: On Monday 21 November 2005 13:33, Steve B wrote: WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did a stage 1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3 u couldn't muck with your CFLAGS or what not. If I'm forced to use canned binaries I might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've never listened to the Gentoo is dead comments.. but now who knows.. this is just crazy.. who came up with this stupid idea? from the sounds of it certianly not the Gentoo Community! well, it was made, because the idiots are too dumb to read and follow the stage1 instructions. And gentoo needs more idiots, right? Up until now, the installation was a nice filter - but that has weakend now, too. I don't actually agree... the impression I'm getting is that Gentoo has now matured/evolved into a state where filters are no longer necessary (or as necessary as previously). Before now, the Gentoo install was rather fragmented, because all the tools necessary to install Gentoo did not all work, or did not all work as well as they needed to, or did not all work as well as they needed to in combination with each other. In practical market terms, you wouldn't want just everybody installing it-- in order to ensure a good and successful experience for the largest number of people, you would not want to encourage those who were untrained or refused training, since the state of the backend required training for successful use. Those who were turned off by the amount or complexity of the documentation (and/or the length of time the install entailed) would tend naturally to fall away. But once Gentoo is actually installed, it's just as easy to use as anything else. Maybe you have to learn emerge -whatever instead of apt-get whatever, but one is not particularly harder than the other. It was always the install that was hard, not the usage. The evolution/maturation of Gentoo and its associated tools means that in order to install Gentoo you no longer have to carefully pick your way across a minefield (stage 1), but can with confidence stride across a beautiful grassy plain (stage 3). If you then want to turn around and customize that field-- plant some flowers, for example-- you can do that (emerge -e world), or you don't have to. But the point is that if you want to interrupt your journey to whatever was on the other side of that field (use your PC for whatever you planned to do with the system, instead of suffering to install the system in the first place) you now have a choice about whether to do that or not. You are not essentially forced to do so by the fact that the minefield was not clear and passage to the other side was not easy or safe and required a great deal of attention. Unbelievable that people are complaining about an improvement in ease-of-use (or in this case, installation). I'd also wonder why Steve B. is installing (again) anyway; one of Gentoo's hallmarks is that you basically install it once and you (almost) never have to do it again. That is of course Steve's business. although if he's going to reinstall, again I must wonder why he would complain that such a reinstall is now likely to be much easier, and lead to a functioning system (from which he can emerge -e world to his heart's content) much faster. But maybe I just have a strange point of view. Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote: well, it was made, because the idiots are too dumb to read and follow the stage1 instructions. And gentoo needs more idiots, right? Up until now, the installation was a nice filter - but that has weakend now, too. The last top posting/html thread was 3 weeks ago... so yes it's time for another Keep Gentoo leet thread. Gentoo isn't about pain, it's about getting work done. Anything, and I mean *anything*, that allows me to spend less time working and more time having a life is a good thing. Therefore we can deduce that anyone who wants a harder install is a hobbyist, dilettante, and a dabbler. Which is a conclusion just as logical as easier installs bring idiots. I so am tired of this argument that I'm not even going to call anyone a chowderhead this time around. Look at the history/life cycle of any industry or technology. Gentoo is on track to leave the Innovation phase, assuming a few tech problems get fully worked out, and enter the Early Adopter phase. Or maybe the Early Majority phase... you could probably make a case for either. http://marketingsage.net/W2W_Market_Stages.htm Yeah it's marketing speak which doesn't exactly match a project like Gentoo so well, but it's close enough. So rather than keeping out idiots we're keeping out the Early Adopters adopt new ideas early, but carefully. They seek breakthrough advantages. They can be respected opinion leaders. They will invest in creating a complete solution so they may need lots of support. Translate that into they're willing to deal with crappy processes to get the advantages and work to improve the shortcomings. I'll take that sort of idiot any day of the week. kashani -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 01:20:12PM -0600, kashani wrote: The last top posting/html thread was 3 weeks ago... so yes it's time for another Keep Gentoo leet thread. Gentoo isn't about pain, it's about getting work done. Anything, and I mean *anything*, that allows me to spend less time working and more time having a life is a good thing. Well said !!! -- If voting could change anything, it would be illegal pgpgKK22aj9Ve.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Nothing changed for those who already installed Gentoo ever, as stated before, it will be even faster/easier to install for a experienced user, and has advantages like not keeping circular references, etc. Another point of view: easier to install means that the newbie filter that install was crumbles, well, we'll receive lots of emails now and the foruns will receive more posts too. Some will think its good, others not. I myself think its good, more people joining. But in the other hand, lets face it, Gentoo is not easy, its not simple and its not designed or the best distro to start in the Linux world. On 11/21/05, Holly Bostick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hemmann, Volker Armin schreef: On Monday 21 November 2005 13:33, Steve B wrote: WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did a stage 1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3 u couldn't muck with your CFLAGS or what not. If I'm forced to use canned binaries I might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've never listened to the Gentoo is dead comments.. but now who knows.. this is just crazy.. who came up with this stupid idea? from the sounds of it certianly not the Gentoo Community! well, it was made, because the idiots are too dumb to read and follow the stage1 instructions. And gentoo needs more idiots, right? Up until now, the installation was a nice filter - but that has weakend now, too. I don't actually agree... the impression I'm getting is that Gentoo has now matured/evolved into a state where filters are no longer necessary (or as necessary as previously). Before now, the Gentoo install was rather fragmented, because all the tools necessary to install Gentoo did not all work, or did not all work as well as they needed to, or did not all work as well as they needed to in combination with each other. In practical market terms, you wouldn't want just everybody installing it-- in order to ensure a good and successful experience for the largest number of people, you would not want to encourage those who were untrained or refused training, since the state of the backend required training for successful use. Those who were turned off by the amount or complexity of the documentation (and/or the length of time the install entailed) would tend naturally to fall away. But once Gentoo is actually installed, it's just as easy to use as anything else. Maybe you have to learn emerge -whatever instead of apt-get whatever, but one is not particularly harder than the other. It was always the install that was hard, not the usage. The evolution/maturation of Gentoo and its associated tools means that in order to install Gentoo you no longer have to carefully pick your way across a minefield (stage 1), but can with confidence stride across a beautiful grassy plain (stage 3). If you then want to turn around and customize that field-- plant some flowers, for example-- you can do that (emerge -e world), or you don't have to. But the point is that if you want to interrupt your journey to whatever was on the other side of that field (use your PC for whatever you planned to do with the system, instead of suffering to install the system in the first place) you now have a choice about whether to do that or not. You are not essentially forced to do so by the fact that the minefield was not clear and passage to the other side was not easy or safe and required a great deal of attention. Unbelievable that people are complaining about an improvement in ease-of-use (or in this case, installation). I'd also wonder why Steve B. is installing (again) anyway; one of Gentoo's hallmarks is that you basically install it once and you (almost) never have to do it again. That is of course Steve's business. although if he's going to reinstall, again I must wonder why he would complain that such a reinstall is now likely to be much easier, and lead to a functioning system (from which he can emerge -e world to his heart's content) much faster. But maybe I just have a strange point of view. Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- Daniel da Veiga Computer Operator - RS - Brazil -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK- Version: 3.1 GCM/IT/P/O d-? s:- a? C++$ UBLA++ P+ L++ E--- W+++$ N o+ K- w O M- V- PS PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+++ R+* tv b+ DI+++ D+ G+ e h+ r+ y++ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK-- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Such a scenario could be your your arms and legs falling off... On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 01:20:12PM -0600, kashani wrote: The last top posting/html thread was 3 weeks ago... so yes it's time for another Keep Gentoo leet thread. Gentoo isn't about pain, it's about getting work done. Anything, and I mean *anything*, that allows me to spend less time working and more time having a life is a good thing. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Jason Dodson wrote: Such a scenario could be your your arms and legs falling off... I suspect I'd spend more time typing if I had to use only my nose rather than fingers so this fails the get more work done test. Perhaps your nose is more dexterous than mine? Jokes aside my definition of getting more work done does include things being stable so I don't have to fix them again, not giving up flexibility that would save me work in the future, and so forth. There is a fine line to walk and in many case I'll err on the side of more work during working hours to be sure of no work in my own time. On the other hand I just took a job as employee #6 at a startup in San Francisco which is sure to double the number of hours I work as well as move me cross country so maybe I'm not as smart as I thought. kashani PS: anyone in SF need a roommate? -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Maybe it's just me, but I have never seen the Stage 1 as any harder than Stage 3. The only difference was... umm... setting your CFLAGS and USE flags. Seriously, how hard is it to type bootstrap, or emerge -e system? I am not saying the move is bad, I totally understand it. I hope that the new docs do have a How to recompile everything at the end somewhere though, for those of us that like the optimization. As far as I've seen, stage 1 is still on the mirrors. If it's really an issue for you, why not download it and just run bootstrap and emerge?On 11/21/05, kashani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Jason Dodson wrote: Such a scenario could be your your arms and legs falling off... I suspect I'd spend more time typing if I had to use only my noserather than fingers so this fails the get more work done test. Perhapsyour nose is more dexterous than mine?Jokes aside my definition of getting more work done does include things being stable so I don't have to fix them again, not giving upflexibility that would save me work in the future, and so forth. Thereis a fine line to walk and in many case I'll err on the side of more work during working hours to be sure of no work in my own time.On the other hand I just took a job as employee #6 at a startup in SanFrancisco which is sure to double the number of hours I work as well as move me cross country so maybe I'm not as smart as I thought.kashaniPS: anyone in SF need a roommate?--gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- Steven Susbauer
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Steven Susbauer wrote: I hope that the new docs do have a How to recompile everything at the end somewhere though, for those of us that like the optimization. The new handbook links to http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/faq.xml#stage12 - how to get the equivalent of a Stage 1 install while still starting with a Stage3. -- Manuel A. McLure KE6TAW [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mclure.org ...for in Ulthar, according to an ancient and significant law, no man may kill a cat. -- H.P. Lovecraft -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Daniel da Veiga schreef: Gentoo is not easy, its not simple and its not designed or the best distro to start in the Linux world. Hogwash. What's so hard about it, as opposed to any other Linux distro, once you get past the install issue? Is learning Portage somehow intrinsically harder than figuring out how to manage YAST and YOU, if you don't know anything at all about package management (which, after all, Windows doesn't have at all)? Does having to figure out how to acquire a media player that will play your MP3s and DVDs by default, because you're using a distro that does not legally prefer this functionality to be distributed, somehow make that distro easier to use, or simpler in some way? The ATI drivers are a b**ch to install no matter what distro you use, if you need them. Just what precisely is so not-simple about Gentoo as opposed to any other distro (barring perhaps Linspire)? Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Hogwash. What's so hard about it, as opposed to any other Linux distro, once you get past the install issue? Several points here: 1) The install issue is the crux isn't it? A Linux newbie would falter at this first hurdle. I have recently installed two Gentoo stage 3 installations, and the biggest problem a newbie would face is that if something went wrong during the install (i.e. they missed a step in the instructions somewhere) they wouldn't have the experience to work out where they went wrong and fix it. 2) The install procedure is a relatively lengthy process (mainly due to the time it takes to download and compile). Both of my installations had to be spread over two or three evenings before the kernel was built and the Gentoo system was ready to stand alone. Without a good chunk of prior experiece, a newbie wouldn't know how to get back to where they left off. 3) Linux newbies generally come from somewhere - the vast majority don't stumble upon Linux as their first OS. Which means they will be coming from a Windows or Mac background. Both are heavily GUI focused - don't underestimate the intimidation factor of a Console to the average Windows/Mac user. Just what precisely is so not-simple about Gentoo as opposed to any other distro (barring perhaps Linspire)? See above and in addition, most mainstream Linux distro's out there will with little work from the user provide a desktop environment with all of the office and multimedia software installed, and hardware set up. These are not criticisms of Gentoo - I love it so far. After the initial install, setting up Apache and subversion was a doddle, and took far less time than when I did it on the previous Suse installation, with the advantage that I now have a lean fast and tidy server, rather than the bloated and messy system Suse gave me. This is mainly due to Gentoo's excellent Portage system, and superb documentation. But then I am not a Linux newbie, and work as a software developer for a living ;-) JM2PW -- Ant... -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 04:17:45PM +0100, Holly Bostick wrote: reinstall, again I must wonder why he would complain that such a reinstall is now likely to be much easier, and lead to a functioning system (from which he can emerge -e world to his heart's content) much faster. But maybe I just have a strange point of view. No, you presume a strange point of view on Steve's part, quite unfairly. That is why he posted: stage 3 did NOT leave him a functioning system from his POV. I don't know the right or wrong of this, but implying Steve is an idiot seems quite derogatory. But maybe I just have a strange point of view. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
George Garvey wrote: On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 04:17:45PM +0100, Holly Bostick wrote: reinstall, again I must wonder why he would complain that such a reinstall is now likely to be much easier, and lead to a functioning system (from which he can emerge -e world to his heart's content) much faster. No, you presume a strange point of view on Steve's part, quite unfairly. That is why he posted: stage 3 did NOT leave him a functioning system from his POV. I don't know the right or wrong of this, but implying Steve is an idiot seems quite derogatory. But maybe I just have a strange point of view. She didn't say Stage 3 would leave him with a functioning system - she said that it's *faster* to get to a functioning system from Stage 3 than it would be from Stage 2 or 1. -- Manuel A. McLure KE6TAW [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mclure.org ...for in Ulthar, according to an ancient and significant law, no man may kill a cat. -- H.P. Lovecraft -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
George Garvey schreef: On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 04:17:45PM +0100, Holly Bostick wrote: reinstall, again I must wonder why he would complain that such a reinstall is now likely to be much easier, and lead to a functioning system (from which he can emerge -e world to his heart's content) much faster. But maybe I just have a strange point of view. No, you presume a strange point of view on Steve's part, quite unfairly. That is why he posted: stage 3 did NOT leave him a functioning system from his POV. I don't know the right or wrong of this, but implying Steve is an idiot seems quite derogatory. But maybe I just have a strange point of view. Sorry, no intention of implying that anyone other than myself was an idiot (I wonder implies I do not understand something, so if anyone is an idiot, it must be me for missing something so obvious to everyone else, so I was actually asking for clarification), and apologies if it read that way. Myself, I don't consider that either a stage 1 or stage 3 leaves me with more than a minimally functional system after the initial install, but a stage 3 leaves me with a *higher functioning* minimal install than a stage 1 does. Either way, I have to put in a fair amount of time either installing the full system that includes the apps and whatnot that I actually use, or customizing the stage 3 to reflect my actual usage patterns, both of which operations take a lot of time. But at least after a stage 3, I don't have to be *uncomfortable* while I'm waiting to get my system up to my personal spec-- I can still *use* Mozilla, even if it's compiled with Mail, and Composer, and IRC, while I wait for it to recompile with the -moz*** USE flags. Of course, that's the reason I generally did an Alternative Stage 1 install from inside another distro (Knoppix once, SuSE once), because I only have the one system, and looking at a relatively useless console for two or three days while my mail piles up doesn't suit me (not a big Mutt user, and lynx annoys me). So this entire discussion doesn't have so much personal relevance to me, except that it means that I can just install Gentoo (in a couple of hours) should I ever need to do that again, rather than having to haul out a Knoppix CD or boot to my SuSE install because I want to (re-)install Gentoo (over a couple of days). Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
Some thoughts: I recently did a stage 1 install and found that the process seems to have deteriorated to the point it was more work than it should have been - hence I see some of the reasons for abandoning it. In particular, the recompiling needed to bring it to a GCC 3.4.4 with all the options I needed meant that a stage 1 gained me nothing, and I lost quite a bit of time. The majority of systems I have recently installed have been tar over ssh from a running system (usually a LiveCD - I have P3/P4 and athlon - just choose the appropriate base). A small install can be up and running in less than 30 mins (IF you already have a running system!) - and its mostly preconfigured which is where I find I spend most of *MY* time. Only downside I have come across is cruft, but that can be managed. I consider this as the equivalent of a targeted (for my purposes) customised super stage3 install. With todays large hard disks, I also put aside a 4G reiserfs partition that contains a minimal install (inc a tailess /boot) to keep me working (i.e., the gateway has a basic webserver, squid, nat setup, mail server, ..., the desktop has fluxbox, OO and evolution - my main work tools and so on. Maintenance is done in a chroot, with an occasional test when scheduled with major kernel upgrades. If in fiddling, I have a disaster, I can keep working while rebuilding. If more than one physical HD is present, grub is installed in each MBR - many modern MB's allow you to choose which HD to boot from - quite handy! Worst comes to worst, a few minutes with tar and I have a basic, but fully configured base to start the recovery process back to the original system. I have found the 4G partition very handy when the raid array broke (disk failure - the 4G was in an unaffected area of the disk - non-raided, so was easily rescued), software problems (bad kernel upgrades) and just having the peace of mind that I can keep working through most disasters. I would highly recommend that this be a standard part of the install for critical systems (e.g., SOHO gateways), and especially for those who have only a single system to work with. With a little planning, it is possible to have an install once, and multiply/upgrade forever maintenance process - this is one of gentoo's current strengths. BillK On Tue, 2005-11-22 at 01:40 +0100, Holly Bostick wrote: George Garvey schreef: On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 04:17:45PM +0100, Holly Bostick wrote: reinstall, again I must wonder why he would complain that such a -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)
051121 Holly Bostick wrote: Daniel da Veiga schreef: Gentoo is not easy, its not simple and its not designed or the best distro to start in the Linux world. What's so hard about it, as opposed to any other Linux distro, once you get past the install issue? In a word, 'maintenance'. No, that's not hard for you me, but your typical Linux novice is going to have to learn a lot to keep his/her box as upto-date as s/he would using a binary distro. For the latter, you just download the new Kubuntu/etc ISO every few months, whereas with Gentoo either you choose which pkgs to update when, -- eg do I get KDE 3.4.3 while it's ~x86 or wait till it's 'stable' or wait a bit longer till 3.5.0 is ~x86 or ... ? (that's my approach) -- or you blindly do 'emerge world' hope for the best (I never 'emerge world'). Also, you have to configure install new kernel versions or can you trust it to Genkernel (which I have never used)? I couldn't think of using anything but Gentoo on my workaday box, but for my back-up machine it's likely to be Mandrake 2006 , as the CPU is too slow for painless Portage I update it only once/year. Newcomers to Linux should be advised to try something better than Linspire, but should not be introduced to Gentoo until they're used to UNIX methods are prepared to invest a bit of their on-going time in sysadmin. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban Community Studies TRANSIT`-O--O---' University of Toronto -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
