Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Re: GIMP and multiple processors
On 02.03.2005, at 00:23, GSR - FR wrote: Yes, radial rainbow hoop gradient (linear 6 pixel to right sawtooth) without supersampling it paints mostly red and with it shows the muddy colour mix you would get if you render big and scale down: http://www.infernal-iceberg.com/gimp/tmp/gradient-supersampling-03- crop.png There're lots of nasties on can trigger with deliberate choices, but do they really matter in reality? The price is an user decision, and default is supersampling off, right? If it is removed, the price you impose is not so low: render into a big version then scale down and copy. Which means fucked up workflow and no adaptive algorithm, so even slower computing and user working a lot more. Apart from a blend on a big image with a scaledown being a magnitude faster than rendering on the small image with activated supersampling, I'm actually for a good reason to improve the supersampling code rather than remove it. But so far the input has not been very convincing. Dunno... but should GIMP care and target a worse solution cos someone else is behind? Huh? The goal is perfection and this is only to reach by *thinking* and constantly reconsidering approaches. By simply throwing code and UI elements at an implementation in the hope to hit a problem you're gaining nothing but a buggy, bloated and unnecessary complicated application. Servus, Daniel PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
MDI [was Re: [Gimp-developer] Report from GIMP talk at FOSDEM]
On Tuesday 01 March 2005 20:03, Raphaël Quinet wrote: - I got some expected questions about the user interface and these turned into a 10 minutes debate between some who would like to see some kind of MDI support (like Photoshop and other programs) and others who prefer the current interface. The expected conclusion is that having MDI as an option would be useful for many users but this will only materialize if someone takes the time to write the code. I'd like to try enabling MDI (i.e: all the images and dialogs inside one big window) support. Can anyone outline the basic changes in the code that need to be performed, for this to materialize? Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Report from GIMP talk at FOSDEM
Hi, Raphal Quinet [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: - One guy asked about better support for typesetting and said that the GIMP was unusable for any serious work if it did not support text orientation and letter spacing. He insisted very much on that. Thanks to Pippin for telling him that most of the infrastructure is ready for that in Pango, but it takes time to implement the GIMP part (UI and logic). I doubt that the guy will submit a patch, though... I am sorry but last I checked, Pango didn't have support for letter spacing yet nor does it support vertical text. It also doesn't support justified text yet. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: GIMP and multiple processors
Hi, Daniel Egger [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I just played around with the blend tool on a 100x100px image and looked very closely for any artifacts with and without supersampling. The result was that I couldn't produce any visible aliasing effects no matter how hard I try other than by using a sawtooth repeat pattern. That seems like a *huge* price to pay for something that can be easily done by accident. Sorry, but I don't see your point. It has been show that supersampling makes sense for some corner cases. It is off by default and users can activate it in case they run into one of the corner cases. Of course it could be faster but where's your problem? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adaptive Contrast Enhancement
Hi, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Shlomi Fish and I independently ported the ACE plugin to GIMP 2.0/2.2. Now both codes are reunited again. I think it works very well now. Shlomi removed a lot of bugs I was not able to correct. It would be great if it could be added to GIMP-2.2 itself now. Anyone against this idea? No new features in a stable version, so there's no way this plug-in is going to be added to GIMP 2.2. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Report from GIMP talk at FOSDEM
Hi, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am sorry but last I checked, Pango didn't have support for letter spacing yet. Hmm, apparently that was a wrong assumption. It looks like Owen sneaked this feature into Pango without adding any note whatsoever to bug #125483. Enabling it in GIMP was trivial, so we now have support for letter-spacing adjustment in the CVS version. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adaptive Contrast Enhancement
On Wednesday 02 March 2005 14:30, Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Shlomi Fish and I independently ported the ACE plugin to GIMP 2.0/2.2. Now both codes are reunited again. I think it works very well now. Shlomi removed a lot of bugs I was not able to correct. It would be great if it could be added to GIMP-2.2 itself now. Anyone against this idea? No new features in a stable version, so there's no way this plug-in is going to be added to GIMP 2.2. Well, how about adding it in gimp-2.3? Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adaptive Contrast Enhancement
On Wednesday 02 March 2005 09:30, Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Shlomi Fish and I independently ported the ACE plugin to GIMP 2.0/2.2. Now both codes are reunited again. I think it works very well now. Shlomi removed a lot of bugs I was not able to correct. It would be great if it could be added to GIMP-2.2 itself now. Anyone against this idea? No new features in a stable version, so there's no way this plug-in is going to be added to GIMP 2.2. I am pretty sure he meant adding it to CVS,a nd have it in the next stable release. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: GIMP and multiple processors
On 02.03.2005, at 13:29, Sven Neumann wrote: Sorry, but I don't see your point. It has been show that supersampling makes sense for some corner cases. It is off by default and users can activate it in case they run into one of the corner cases. Of course it could be faster but where's your problem? No problem on this side of the wire other then that is feature is counterintuitive, slow, undocumented and pretty much useless for the blend tool except for deliberate cases. I'm trying to figure out whether this (NB: the generic supersampling code) is something worth improving and if it is what an adequate interface would be. Servus, Daniel PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adaptive Contrast Enhancement
Hi, Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, how about adding it in gimp-2.3? That depends on whether you would prefer to have it included or would like to distribute it separately. I also haven't checked the code yet. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: GIMP and multiple processors
Hi, Daniel Egger [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No problem on this side of the wire other then that is feature is counterintuitive, slow, undocumented and pretty much useless for the blend tool except for deliberate cases. I agree that it is slow, but it is certainly not counterintuitive, it is documented and it is useful. The fact that it is not generally useful is reasonably reflected by the fact that it is off by default. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adaptive Contrast Enhancement
On Wednesday 02 March 2005 17:33, Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, how about adding it in gimp-2.3? That depends on whether you would prefer to have it included or would like to distribute it separately. I would prefer to have it included. I also haven't checked the code yet. Well, the code is quite full of FIXME statements (including in the PDB documentation), and possibly has some memory leaks. (which were hard to trace because valgrind reported many other memory leaks in Xlib and in libfontconfig.). I guess it would need more work. Regards, Shlomi Fish - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Report from GIMP talk at FOSDEM
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Sven Neumann wrote: Pango didn't have support for letter spacing yet nor does it support vertical text. The release notes for pango 1.5 includes this which I hope should help with the vertical text (or any angle): * Add support for rotated rendering to the FT2 backend -- /Dennis ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Re: Re: GIMP and multiple processors
Hi, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (2005-03-01 at 2059.06 -0800): It ought to be easy enough to detect when antialiasing will be needed and automagically turn it on. I havnt looked at the supersampling code yet, but I think it might be much faster to do the supersampling in a second pass since such a small percentage of pixels actually need it. That is what adaptive means, it computes extra samples in the pixels that change too much. But instead of checking at the end, it checks at the same time it calculates the gradient, and does not compute more samples than needed. IIRC, exactly what POVRay does. If you make it auto, it is going to go always slower due the forced extra checks, instead of letting the user decide if the result is poor or not for what he wants: checking a gradient that is ultra smooth is a waste, a poor result that is later processed with noise or blur is not so poor IOW, supersampling is nice for the small set of cases in which it really matters, otherwise it is going to be slower always. Of course, it is going to be faster in many cases than full sampling and scaling down. If anybody figures a better method than user selectable adaptive (best case as fast as no oversampling, worst case as slow as adaptive), I guess POVRay Team will like to hear too. :] Or maybe GIMP could also do the background trickery as reported in other mails, do not compute composition stack when it is not needed (areas out of image window, zoom not 1:1, fully opaque normal pixels...) and many other things to make it feel fast. GSR ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adaptive Contrast Enhancement
Hi, Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would prefer to have it included. Perhaps you should add it to CVS then. The sooner the better. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Report from GIMP talk at FOSDEM
Hi, Dennis Bjorklund [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Pango didn't have support for letter spacing yet nor does it support vertical text. The release notes for pango 1.5 includes this which I hope should help with the vertical text (or any angle): * Add support for rotated rendering to the FT2 backend Vertical text is different from rotated text. Text transformations will go into GIMP 2.4 (and will most likely not use the Pango text transform routines). Vertical text however has the glyphs all upright but is rendered from top to bottom (like chinese). Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Report from GIMP talk at FOSDEM
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Sven Neumann wrote: transform routines). Vertical text however has the glyphs all upright but is rendered from top to bottom (like chinese). Isn't that just normal (centered) text with newlines between each character? -- /Dennis Björklund ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Re: GIMP and multiple processors
On 02.03.2005, at 20:22, GSR - FR wrote: IOW, supersampling is nice for the small set of cases in which it really matters, otherwise it is going to be slower always. Of course, it is going to be faster in many cases than full sampling and scaling down. If anybody figures a better method than user selectable adaptive (best case as fast as no oversampling, worst case as slow as adaptive), I guess POVRay Team will like to hear too. :] It might as well be that the adaption is the root of the speed problem. As is the code is a mungo-jungo of hardcoded computation that works differently (or at least seems so) than other region based code. It does not operate on tiles but on rows, does its own memory allocation and thus is hardly parallizable and very likely much slower than it needs to be. And hey, 3 times adaptive supersampling blending a layer takes *much* longer an a manual 10x oversampling by blending a larger image and scaling it down to the original size with Lanczos; this is a UP machine BTW. My assumption here is that if the adaptive supersampling code takes magnitudes longer to render than without supersampling it could be benefitial to simply use the common code to the render depthxdepth times the amount of tiles to fill and simply do some weighting on this data to fill the final tile. Very easy, reuses existing code, runs multithreaded and is likely quite a bit faster than the stuff now is. I would also look into the possibility of analyzing the inputs (gradient and repeat type) to find degenerated cases and recommend the use of supersampling to the users... Servus, Daniel PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Gimp-developer] Report from GIMP talk at FOSDEM
Hi, Dennis Bjorklund [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: transform routines). Vertical text however has the glyphs all upright but is rendered from top to bottom (like chinese). Isn't that just normal (centered) text with newlines between each character? No, that would give you a line height of distance between the baselines, not the vertical offset as defined in the font (if the font is suitable for vertical rendering at all). Of course you can trick it this way and may end up with something that looks close enough. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: MDI [was Re: [Gimp-developer] Report from GIMP talk at FOSDEM]
] ...to see some kind of MDI support... ]I'd like to... Could it be possible to dynamically turn this feature on and off? Usually MDI gets in the way, but sometimes (editing multiple sessions, for example) it would be helpful to have it for just a moment and turn it back off afterwards. (Such a feature might be better provided transparently by GTK than directly in GIMP) _-T ___ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
