Re: [Gimp-developer] Create New Layer Button
Come to think of it, I've changed my mind, and agree with making transparent the default action. My reason is this: When I was teaching Photoshop at University, I tried to think of a good physical paradigm for explaining how layers work to people who always worked on a single layer for fear of messing with the layers. I wound up stealing some transparencies from an overhead projector and using each transparency sheet to show everyone a real-world example to demystify the rather abstract notion that flat images can be separated/layered in Photoshop. That worked extremely well, and have since used it to teach several friends and a few workmates the same concept. Now, admittedly, I could have inserted a white bit of paper in there to represent a white layer, but maybe that's a bit too much extra info, or actually irrelevant, since it's obvious you can fill an entire layer with a colour to achieve the same effect. In short, hiding the dialogue may aid first-time user of layers, and prevent them from producing confusing layers (like layers with no alpha-channel, for example). In fact, unless there is some awesome reason for having new layers with no alpha channel, I'd recommend against it. There is nothing more confusing than a "special" layer that doesn't behave like every other layer, and there is no indication at all why the eraser tool isn't working as it should, and erasing to transparency. Photoshop solves this by making the bottom layer by default with no alpha channel, and making every new layer transparent. I think this is a decent way of handling it. What I really hate is that the default for dragging new images into GIMP is creating new layers with no alpha channel. Typically, if I'm dragging in files, I'm making a collage where I will immediately erase the background out of each new layer in the image. Invariably, I forget to manually add alpha channel to each layer (It's a pain++ to have to do that). Mercifully, when you add a layer mask to a new layer, it automatically adds an alpha channel, so again, it's not that big of a deal since I've changed to non-destructive editing methods. For users that don't like masks everywhere, it's going to be 10x more frustrating, though. Again, we could just set the default to have an alpha channel, and then people can remove it later if they really don't want it. They could also just paint/fill over it, and accept that every layer has an alpha channel as well. Thoughts? On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 9:46 PM, C R wrote: > Personally, every time I want to mask out the current selection (sometimes > I make 3 or 4 in a row for stacked layer mode edits). This is probably > considered far beyond the scope of what a typical user does, though, so I'm > willing to personally sacrifice and rework my work flow if most people > think it's better to get rid of the layer dialogue (or hide it behind the > shift-click instead). A minor rework for me, as long as the options remain > the same in the dialogue. Admitedly, I found it a little frustrating when > coming directly from Photoshop to have the dialogue pop up every time, but > it's something I've come to appreciate when working with GIMP as a > non-destructive editor, which I never did much of in Photoshop. The fact > that it saves the last layer type, means that you can just click the > add-layer button, and hit enter to get the same kind of layer as you chose > before. Maybe setting the default to transparent would be enough for most > people to forgive the dialogue, and then you could still use it to make > sure users know that "transparent" isn't the only option for a layer. I am > not a fan of dragging and dropping a colour from the colour dialogue, as > it's far far slower than just hitting enter once to repeat the last layer > chosen. I make a lot of white layers (Amazon requires everything to have a > pure white background, for example) so in an editing workflow it can > require several hundred create white layer operations in a day. It may also > be noted that what looks "white" in the colour-picker may not be white; if > it's off even a little, you may not notice, but Amazon's picture scanning > tools certainly will, and then you may have to do a whole batch over again, > depending on how long ago you accidentally changed the colour to almost > white. ;) This has happened a few times, in the past, so I've personally > found the "white" new layer option quite handy. This is not something I > would have ever known about until this thread if it was hidden behind the > shift-click thing. I would not consider myself the typical GIMP user, > though, as I use GIMP for EVERYTHING. If it helps GIMP to be more useful > for the average user, I'm willing to change my workflow, however. I can > probably hotkey a fill-white action if I really need to. > > > > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 8:46 PM, Gez wrote: > >> El vie, 03-04-2015 a las 20:36 +0100, C R escribió: >> > Not to be a pain, but if you have a selection already (that
Re: [Gimp-developer] Create New Layer Button
Personally, every time I want to mask out the current selection (sometimes I make 3 or 4 in a row for stacked layer mode edits). This is probably considered far beyond the scope of what a typical user does, though, so I'm willing to personally sacrifice and rework my work flow if most people think it's better to get rid of the layer dialogue (or hide it behind the shift-click instead). A minor rework for me, as long as the options remain the same in the dialogue. Admitedly, I found it a little frustrating when coming directly from Photoshop to have the dialogue pop up every time, but it's something I've come to appreciate when working with GIMP as a non-destructive editor, which I never did much of in Photoshop. The fact that it saves the last layer type, means that you can just click the add-layer button, and hit enter to get the same kind of layer as you chose before. Maybe setting the default to transparent would be enough for most people to forgive the dialogue, and then you could still use it to make sure users know that "transparent" isn't the only option for a layer. I am not a fan of dragging and dropping a colour from the colour dialogue, as it's far far slower than just hitting enter once to repeat the last layer chosen. I make a lot of white layers (Amazon requires everything to have a pure white background, for example) so in an editing workflow it can require several hundred create white layer operations in a day. It may also be noted that what looks "white" in the colour-picker may not be white; if it's off even a little, you may not notice, but Amazon's picture scanning tools certainly will, and then you may have to do a whole batch over again, depending on how long ago you accidentally changed the colour to almost white. ;) This has happened a few times, in the past, so I've personally found the "white" new layer option quite handy. This is not something I would have ever known about until this thread if it was hidden behind the shift-click thing. I would not consider myself the typical GIMP user, though, as I use GIMP for EVERYTHING. If it helps GIMP to be more useful for the average user, I'm willing to change my workflow, however. I can probably hotkey a fill-white action if I really need to. On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 8:46 PM, Gez wrote: > El vie, 03-04-2015 a las 20:36 +0100, C R escribió: > > Not to be a pain, but if you have a selection already (that you want to > > keep), clicking and dragging a colour fills the selection, which is not > the > > same as making a new layer with foreground/background, or white. If I'm > > outvoted on the issue though, I will simply change my workflow. The > hotkeys > > for fill with fg and bg are useful. Also don't forget the "x" key, which > > swaps foreground and background colours (I use this a lot when painting > > masks). The "d" key changes the fg and bg colours to black and white (d > for > > default) as well. This is the same in Photoshop. > > That's a good point, but may I ask how often do you have to create a new > solid layer while keeping a selection? > I can think about a few cases, and not really critic ones since the > creation of the new solid doesn't depend on the selection. > > Anyway, I don't think anyone is asking to remove the extra options from > the layer dialog. I think it's rather about making it less invasive. > > Gez > > ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] 2.8.14
On 04/03/2015 09:28 PM, booksonbo...@aol.com wrote: > Dear Gimpshop, This is the GIMP developer list, not a Gimpshop list. > I installed Gimpshop 2.8.14. This might have been a serious mistake - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIMPshop#Status In particular this quote by the original GIMPshop author: "I originally created Gimpshop, but I'm not the jerk who owns that domain and added adware & spyware to the source. Sorry about that. I hate that this guy is out there making my fun little project into an abomination." > Please advise. Remove GIMPshop, make sure that you haven't got any additions on your system that you do not want to have there - in the extreme, this means reinstalling the operating system - and then get GIMP from http://www.gimp.org/downloads/ -- Regards, Michael GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Create New Layer Button
El vie, 03-04-2015 a las 20:36 +0100, C R escribió: > Not to be a pain, but if you have a selection already (that you want to > keep), clicking and dragging a colour fills the selection, which is not the > same as making a new layer with foreground/background, or white. If I'm > outvoted on the issue though, I will simply change my workflow. The hotkeys > for fill with fg and bg are useful. Also don't forget the "x" key, which > swaps foreground and background colours (I use this a lot when painting > masks). The "d" key changes the fg and bg colours to black and white (d for > default) as well. This is the same in Photoshop. That's a good point, but may I ask how often do you have to create a new solid layer while keeping a selection? I can think about a few cases, and not really critic ones since the creation of the new solid doesn't depend on the selection. Anyway, I don't think anyone is asking to remove the extra options from the layer dialog. I think it's rather about making it less invasive. Gez ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
[Gimp-developer] 2.8.14
Dear Gimpshop, I installed Gimpshop 2.8.14. I am missing the toolbar across the top. The tool bar that is supposed to be below file edit select is missing, never appeared after installation and I cannot figure out how to turn it on. Please advise. thank you. Mike Herman ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Create New Layer Button
Not to be a pain, but if you have a selection already (that you want to keep), clicking and dragging a colour fills the selection, which is not the same as making a new layer with foreground/background, or white. If I'm outvoted on the issue though, I will simply change my workflow. The hotkeys for fill with fg and bg are useful. Also don't forget the "x" key, which swaps foreground and background colours (I use this a lot when painting masks). The "d" key changes the fg and bg colours to black and white (d for default) as well. This is the same in Photoshop. On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Elle Stone wrote: > On 04/03/2015 07:44 AM, Gez wrote: > >> El dom, 29-03-2015 a las 11:53 -0400, Elle Stone escribió: >> >> What you just described - shift-click the new layer button plus dragging >>> the foreground/background color - works perfectly, MUCH better than >>> using the new layer dialog. Thanks! Many thanks!! By comparision, using >>> the new layer dialog really is cumbersome. >>> >> >> >> Dragging bg/fg colors to the editing area is definitely a handy option >> in GIMP, and it also has predefined keystrokes (ctrl+. and ctrl+,). >> iirc the keystrokes are the same that PS uses. >> If clicking just created a transparent layer, it would be much faster >> and less disrupting to fill the new layer afterwards when it's required. >> The only situation that would require an extra click is filling with >> white if other BG/FG colors are set, but it's just one click away. >> >> >> Where's the documentation for these two shortcuts? I did a quick >>> internet search and didn't find any tutorials or documentation regarding >>> "shift-click" plus "drag the color". >>> >> >> GIMP official docs: >> >> http://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/gimp-tools.html#gimp-toolbox-areas >> >> The shift-click on the new layer button is not documented though, it's >> only available as a tooltip >> >> http://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/gimp-dialogs-structure.html#gimp-layer-dialog >> >> >> The docs also say that "A good way to visualize a GIMP image is as a >> stack of transparencies: in GIMP terminology, each individual >> transparency is called a layer." >> >> http://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/gimp-image-combining.html# >> gimp-concepts-layers >> >> I think that makes a reasonable case for a default using transparency >> and putting the extra options in a second level. >> > > > >> As I said earlier, Tobias' proposal allows that keeping discoverability >> and reducing workflow interruptions. >> > > As long as shift-click and dragging a color to the new layer keeps on > working, changing the new layer dialog doesn't present any problem that I > can see. > > In case anyone else doesn't already know this, if you have a selection > made, dragging the color to the layer fills the selection. It's a very > convenient shortcut. > > Elle > > > ___ > gimp-developer-list mailing list > List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org > List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp- > developer-list > List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list > ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Create New Layer Button
On 04/03/2015 07:44 AM, Gez wrote: El dom, 29-03-2015 a las 11:53 -0400, Elle Stone escribió: What you just described - shift-click the new layer button plus dragging the foreground/background color - works perfectly, MUCH better than using the new layer dialog. Thanks! Many thanks!! By comparision, using the new layer dialog really is cumbersome. Dragging bg/fg colors to the editing area is definitely a handy option in GIMP, and it also has predefined keystrokes (ctrl+. and ctrl+,). iirc the keystrokes are the same that PS uses. If clicking just created a transparent layer, it would be much faster and less disrupting to fill the new layer afterwards when it's required. The only situation that would require an extra click is filling with white if other BG/FG colors are set, but it's just one click away. Where's the documentation for these two shortcuts? I did a quick internet search and didn't find any tutorials or documentation regarding "shift-click" plus "drag the color". GIMP official docs: http://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/gimp-tools.html#gimp-toolbox-areas The shift-click on the new layer button is not documented though, it's only available as a tooltip http://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/gimp-dialogs-structure.html#gimp-layer-dialog The docs also say that "A good way to visualize a GIMP image is as a stack of transparencies: in GIMP terminology, each individual transparency is called a layer." http://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/gimp-image-combining.html#gimp-concepts-layers I think that makes a reasonable case for a default using transparency and putting the extra options in a second level. > As I said earlier, Tobias' proposal allows that keeping discoverability and reducing workflow interruptions. As long as shift-click and dragging a color to the new layer keeps on working, changing the new layer dialog doesn't present any problem that I can see. In case anyone else doesn't already know this, if you have a selection made, dragging the color to the layer fills the selection. It's a very convenient shortcut. Elle ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Create New Layer Button
El dom, 29-03-2015 a las 11:53 -0400, Elle Stone escribió: > What you just described - shift-click the new layer button plus dragging > the foreground/background color - works perfectly, MUCH better than > using the new layer dialog. Thanks! Many thanks!! By comparision, using > the new layer dialog really is cumbersome. Dragging bg/fg colors to the editing area is definitely a handy option in GIMP, and it also has predefined keystrokes (ctrl+. and ctrl+,). iirc the keystrokes are the same that PS uses. If clicking just created a transparent layer, it would be much faster and less disrupting to fill the new layer afterwards when it's required. The only situation that would require an extra click is filling with white if other BG/FG colors are set, but it's just one click away. > Where's the documentation for these two shortcuts? I did a quick > internet search and didn't find any tutorials or documentation regarding > "shift-click" plus "drag the color". GIMP official docs: http://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/gimp-tools.html#gimp-toolbox-areas The shift-click on the new layer button is not documented though, it's only available as a tooltip http://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/gimp-dialogs-structure.html#gimp-layer-dialog The docs also say that "A good way to visualize a GIMP image is as a stack of transparencies: in GIMP terminology, each individual transparency is called a layer." http://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/gimp-image-combining.html#gimp-concepts-layers I think that makes a reasonable case for a default using transparency and putting the extra options in a second level. As I said earlier, Tobias' proposal allows that keeping discoverability and reducing workflow interruptions. Regarding your question about hard evidence that backs my claim about most of the people expecting layers to be transparent, I don't have it and I don't think a public poll is the best way to get that. I'm a graphic designer like C R, and my workflow is similar. I'm not a photographer, but cutting out and touching up photos is part of my regular work. I use GIMP "professionally" (which means it is one of the tools I use to do work that pays my bills) so I think I am a "target" user. You can interview other "target" users of GIMP and get better results that what you'd get from a poll, and that's exactly what Peter Sikking and his team did a couple of years ago when they interviewed a group of users for input on their usage patterns. If you put a poll in a public website you will receive answers from everyone, not just from the target users. That will result in useless data. Imagine that you get 20 replies from people who hardly uses GIMP and are just hobbists who need to remove red eyes from point and shoot photos and 2 replies from serious photographers with high-end requirements. I wouldn't like that decisions on usability are done that way. For the same reason some automated statistics won't necessarily throw what target users prefer or need. Gez. ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
