RE: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front)
S'cuse me?! Ham said: The bottom line you cannot go to an organization which has work to do and for whom a computer is only a tool to accomplish that work and say you have a wonderful low cost solution that is better than what you have or want to have via Windows or whatever and you will install it and get it working, but the catch is after that they are on their own. And what did they get from compusa when they bought that silly windows box that they currently have? and Ham said: Would you buy a car you need to use to get to work on that basis? And what did you get last time you bought a car from AutoFair - or for that matter a new car dealer? In both of the above examples my experience is that when I buy something I get to take it home. Neither the windows box from compusa nor the car come with any promise of ongoing support. I am neither a mechanic nor a sysadmin (though I know enough to be dangerous in both fields) I accept the responsibility and liability to hire the necessary professionals (yes with real money) whenever, if-ever, I need them for maintenance and support. My approach has been: I can do my own oil changes and figure out what is wrong with my tires but when the engine fails I (say it ain't so) spend money! I can fumble through the learning curve of whatever app or os configuration I need on my own using the web but when I am trying to solve a business problem I (say it ain't so) spend money! If I offer to setup someone with a linux install and configuration for free because it is a cheaper short-term and long-term solution to thier business needs then I have done for them no-more and no-less than the OEM install of win2K that came with that machine from Dell or CompUSA. If I then turn around and offer to provide professional services that support their business in using that machine that is separate. If they needed those professional services from an MCSE to support their business on a Win2K platform they would have to pay for that. The argument that the linux solution is cheaper in the long-run is in part due to the fact that they would probably spend less in software lisencing costs over the lifetime of the systems with a linux solution. Not because we linux knowledgeable professionals work for free or even necessarily cheaper than our counterparts who support MicroSoft products. I am perfectly willing, as a linux enthusiast / hobbyiest to help someone else catch the enthusiasm. I will help them learn enough to become dangerous, I will show them what I know of the sources on the web that they can join to become more knowledgeable about Linux. I am not willing to work in a professional capacity supporting a business application for free. For that I charge a much larger fee. To imply that, since I refuse to provide business level support for free, I am somehow not supporting other linux enthusiasts is a stretch. Brad -Original Message- From: Ham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 5:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front) - Original Message - From: Ray Cote [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jeffry Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front) This really is an excellent issue. Are you ready to just evangelize or back it up with a support contract for local organizations? I seem to be getting only parts of this thread. I assume from this that some do not appreciate the necessity to provide some level of support to those for whom a linux box is installed.Only if you are a hobbyist? Expecting them to learn some basic skills is one thing. Expecting them to be able to set the Linux box up to effectively provide the tools they want and to modify it as conditions change is another. If they have the money to pay for a support contract, then someone should get paid. If someone wants to provide meaningful support as a charitable act, fine. Nevertheless, in the final analysis someone needs to be available to hold their hand at times and solve the hard issues or Linux is not a viable tool for them. Whether it is technically better, whether it requires less support, whether is more reliable, whether it is more cost effective will not matter if they do not have the comfort of knowing someone will make it work when it all goes south. They have work to do and it does not include playing sysadmin. Ed Lawson ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug ** ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body
Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front)
Ray Cote said: At 1:19 PM -0400 7/25/01, Jeffry Smith wrote: Dan Jenkins said: This does bring up a point - assuming these folks are currently using Windows (or planning to), how do they intend to do support on that? Through the service organization that installed it. For which they're paying money Through their licensed NT-certified support staff. That they're paying Through their Microsoft-trained in-house support staff. That they're paying Through their paid support contracts. That they're paying On just about every third street corner in town where there's a little computer store. That they pay. Not saying support is great, but there's a feeling it is at least available. This really is an excellent issue. Are you ready to just evangelize or back it up with a support contract for local organizations? They probably couldn't afford my company (we do high-level, 24x7, support contracts), but I suspect that there are companies out there that would write them a support contract. Basically, for all support, they have 2 choices: 1. Purchase it. This means dollars, but hopefully, they get guaranteed results (hopefully, not certainty). Given the ease of remote admin of Linux, I suspect it could be cheaper. However, if they already have in-house folks doing this with Windows, it might be more cost-effective to do it with Windows (unless those Windows folks also do Linux, which is a distinct possibility these days). 2. Try to find volunteer help. Guess what? No guarantees (doesn't matter if it's Windows or Linux).However, the Linux volunteer community earned the Infoworld 1997 Support of the Year award. Support's available, it's just a matter of what they are willing to pay for the results they want. jeff --- Jeffry Smith Technical Sales Consultant Mission Critical Linux [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone:603.930.9739 fax:978.446.9470 --- Thought for today: losing adj. Said of anything that is or causes a lose or lossage. The compiler is losing badly when I try to use templates. ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front)
I hope people haven't taken my answers wrong on this thread. It's not that I don't believe in supporting charities (heck, I work on a volunteer ambulance service), but that we need to disabuse them of the MS-propagated myth that you don't need to know anything to do this. ALL systems need some level of admin support. The more networked used a system, the more support. Even something as simple as back-ups requires, at minimum, a level of support sufficient to determine what to back up and when, run the backups, ensure the backups are good (yes, I've seen backups run religiously to bad tape ;), etc. This all takes time and effort. They either get it via volunteer support (available when and if, no guarantees), or they pay for it. The difference between Linux and Windows here is that, with Linux, they only pay for support. With Windows, they pay the licensing, and THEN pay for support. A question to ask them is what would they do if their car broke down? Some of them may know enough to fix it, but I suspect most would take their car to a repair shop. jeff --- Jeffry Smith Technical Sales Consultant Mission Critical Linux [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone:603.930.9739 fax:978.446.9470 --- Thought for today: gnarly /nar'lee/ adj. Both obscure and hairy (sense 1). Yow! -- the tuned assembler implementation of BitBlt is really gnarly! From a similar but less specific usage in surfer slang. ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front)
- Original Message - From: Brad Maxwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 12:15 PM Subject: RE: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front) Fact: http://sanjose.bcentral.com/sanjose/stories/2001/03/05/daily24.html please reconcile Easy. Notice that story is about unauthorized software. Also involved vendors other than MS. It says nothing about what it might have cost the school district to obtain licenses for the products in the first instance. It does not say what the unauthorized titles were. This was a relatively isolated event for the purpose of publicity. The fact remains, and you can verify it easily, that MS will provide software to schools at very low prices. It is in their interest to get kids to use their products at school. Just good business. To accomplish that, they make it as easy as possible for schools to buy their product. Frankly, cost of MS software is not the point of this discussion. A factor for schools and nonprofits, but not the central issue. Cost advantages in terms of software will not get you very far when trying to convince school officials. Try it and see. I reported a response from one. I have heard similar responses. In some settings software costs are an issue and will be a point in Linux's favor. In some cases it is not a major factor. While I am precluded from disclosing particulars, I know because I read the proposed agreement that MS offered a large state non-profit all the software it needed for it's operation for free. Yes. All software from desktop to server to accomplish its mission including customized IE on CDs for its members. I assume you see the MS business reason for doing this. Ed Lawson ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
RE: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front)
This was a relatively isolated event for the purpose of publicity. perhaps not so isolated see this article http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/07/10/microsoft_school/index.html From the $amounts being seen here it is apparent that the absolute price of these licenses is large though they may be discounted from business prices, they are far from free. It is apparent that MS wants to get students using thier software and there are probably many good reasons that they will discount their software for the schools. It is also apparent that they would rather charge for thier software than give it away. There may be isolated cases as you mentioned where they have given away thier software but it don't think that it is even near reality to suggest that they would do so for the entire US school system or even for an entire high school in a small town. The positive PR would be drown in the cost of responding to the flood of me-too requests from every other educational institution in the world. Whether the school systems currently see the cost of this licensing or not is the question. As the BSA starts to crack down on what the school systems see as fair use of the few licenses that they have this issue will become more and more important to schools and non-profits. The fact that the OS licensing fee is bundled into the cost of the desktop unit obscures this somewhat. Until the BSA stops by and audits you for all of the compatible applications that you have loaded to use that OS. I don't think that these are isolated examples from the BSA. The BSA has a charter of methodically collecting from all violaters. School systems and non-profits receive no break. This is an attempt to set an example but the first in a wave. Whether the school systems come into compliance themselves and avoid the penalties of a BSA audit or have to be brought into compliance through the legal actions of the BSA the cost will be large if not unaffordable. This is a serious piece of leverage in the argument to use linux in the academic and non-profit arena. - Original Message - From: Brad Maxwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 12:15 PM Subject: RE: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front) Fact: http://sanjose.bcentral.com/sanjose/stories/2001/03/05/daily24.html please reconcile Easy. Notice that story is about unauthorized software. Also involved vendors other than MS. It says nothing about what it might have cost the school district to obtain licenses for the products in the first instance. It does not say what the unauthorized titles were. This was a relatively isolated event for the purpose of publicity. The fact remains, and you can verify it easily, that MS will provide software to schools at very low prices. It is in their interest to get kids to use their products at school. Just good business. To accomplish that, they make it as easy as possible for schools to buy their product. Frankly, cost of MS software is not the point of this discussion. A factor for schools and nonprofits, but not the central issue. Cost advantages in terms of software will not get you very far when trying to convince school officials. Try it and see. I reported a response from one. I have heard similar responses. In some settings software costs are an issue and will be a point in Linux's favor. In some cases it is not a major factor. While I am precluded from disclosing particulars, I know because I read the proposed agreement that MS offered a large state non-profit all the software it needed for it's operation for free. Yes. All software from desktop to server to accomplish its mission including customized IE on CDs for its members. I assume you see the MS business reason for doing this. Ed Lawson ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug ** ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front)
For the governmental sector, I'd stay away from anything cutting-edge and open-source! (Which leaves out just about everything dealing with groupware - except maybe Twiki - but that's just collaboration-ware - and most MS-Office types don't like it). Are you asking for a few volunteer hours a day/week/month/this year? I'm more than willing to configure a RH6.2 system as a turnkey mail and web server (including majordomo). That should take about an hour (or less) after I get all the right information; longer if I have to ask questions and/or explain things. --Bruce Lowell Bruce McCulley wrote: Ok, we talk about the benefits of open source and want to get sites in the governmental sector, is anyone willing to back talk with action? Specifically, I would like to know if there would be anyone who would be willing to commit to spend a few volunteer hours helping to configure and administer a Linux box running a list server, or even better some cutting edge open source groupware apps? This would be for a public-sector non-profit/quasi-governmental organization with no money to speak of (hence the volunteer status, at least for this effort). I'm sorry but I don't feel I can go into more detail right now, this is a chicken-and-egg situation where I'm trying to make sure the project is feasible before I present a proposal, but until the proposal is accepted the details are negotiable. Replies can be directly to me, or to the list, as you feel appropriate. THANKS! --Bruce McCulley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...snip...] I took about 90 copies of a paper on using open source for nonprofit human services providers, and my Linux in Business and Government paper. [...snip...] Bob Sparks Linux mouth ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug ** ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front)
- Original Message - From: Bruce Dawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lowell Bruce McCulley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Greater NH Linux Users' Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front) Lowell Bruce McCulley wrote: Ok, we talk about the benefits of open source and want to get sites in the governmental sector, is anyone willing to back talk with action? Yes. I think this is an important function of a LUG. However, I also believe we need to be realistic about what this means. If we help set up a system, then we must be prepared to support that system. That is the way the world works. At LinuxWorld this year, the education/school group made a point of saying if you help a school set up a Linux system, then you must be there for them when issues arise. If the system is low maintenance as promised, the help needed will be low. But the main point being, you simply cannot set it up and walk away. Specifically, I would like to know if there would be anyone who would be willing to commit to spend a few volunteer hours helping to configure and administer a Linux box running a list server, or even better some cutting edge open source groupware apps? Others on the list are much more technically skilled than I, but I would be happy to help set up Linux boxes for non-profit/school/governmental units. I could not do it in an hour, but I could set up a Samba server, Apache, Mailman list, and a few MySQL/PHP off the shelf apps without to much trouble. In otherwords, a decent network infrastructure for an entity. I think we should consider what distro would be used, how the set up would be documented,etc. in order for others to be able to step in and know what was going on. Personally, I would go with Debian for easy updating and stability of the basic services we are talking about. If the issue were desktop machines, then another distro might make more sense. Who, what, when, and where? Of course we need to first think about how and why. Perhaps the experience on the active Monad. LUG will show the way given their activities with schools. Perhaps this needs its own Twiki Ed Lawson ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front)
Ham wrote: - Original Message - From: Bruce Dawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lowell Bruce McCulley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Greater NH Linux Users' Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front) Lowell Bruce McCulley wrote: Ok, we talk about the benefits of open source and want to get sites in the governmental sector, is anyone willing to back talk with action? Yes. I think this is an important function of a LUG. However, I also believe we need to be realistic about what this means. If we help set up a system, then we must be prepared to support that system. That is the way the world works. At LinuxWorld this year, the education/school group made a point of saying if you help a school set up a Linux system, then you must be there for them when issues arise. If the system is low maintenance as promised, the help needed will be low. But the main point being, you simply cannot set it up and walk away. This is a VERY important point. If no one is there to support it, problems will arise. This will reflect badly on Linux - whether it is a Linux problem or not. The ongoing support can be quite low for a well-configured Linux server, but it is not non-existant. More to the point the workstations (of what ever operating system) need more day-to-day maintenance because they are used by end-users not system administrators. A workstation problem (even if a Windows workstation) will reflect badly on the network and on Linux in general, if someone is not there to address the problems. Perception is reality. Support is a long-term commitment; not just a quick install. -- Dan Jenkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Rastech Inc., 21 Curtis Lane, Bedford, NH 03110 - 603-627-0443 *** Providing Technical Support for a Quarter Century begin:vcard n:Jenkins;Dan tel;fax:1-603-627-7513 tel;work:1-603-627-0443 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.rastech.com org:Rastech Inc. adr:;;21 Curtis Lane;Bedford;NH;03110;USA version:2.1 email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] fn:Dan Jenkins end:vcard
Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front)
Dan Jenkins said: Ham wrote: - Original Message - From: Bruce Dawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lowell Bruce McCulley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Greater NH Linux Users' Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front) Lowell Bruce McCulley wrote: Ok, we talk about the benefits of open source and want to get sites in the governmental sector, is anyone willing to back talk with action? Yes. I think this is an important function of a LUG. However, I also believe we need to be realistic about what this means. If we help set up a system, then we must be prepared to support that system. That is the way the world works. At LinuxWorld this year, the education/school group made a point of saying if you help a school set up a Linux system, then you must be there for them when issues arise. If the system is low maintenance as promised, the help needed will be low. But the main point being, you simply cannot set it up and walk away. This is a VERY important point. If no one is there to support it, problems will arise. This will reflect badly on Linux - whether it is a Linux problem or not. The ongoing support can be quite low for a well-configured Linux server, but it is not non-existant. More to the point the workstations (of what ever operating system) need more day-to-day maintenance because they are used by end-users not system administrators. A workstation problem (even if a Windows workstation) will reflect badly on the network and on Linux in general, if someone is not there to address the problems. Perception is reality. Support is a long-term commitment; not just a quick install. This does bring up a point - assuming these folks are currently using Windows (or planning to), how do they intend to do support on that? My experience is that ALL systems need support. Much of the support is OS-Agnostic (planning for backups, network layout, password policy, etc), some is OS specific, but all is required. A big problem I have with the way Windows is sold (one of many, but let's not get into that) is that anyone can do it which inevitably leads to no one doing it. I suspect the first step in this project is User Education - why they need some dedicated support (x hours per week/month/whatever), why they will need it REGARDLESS of the OS used, etc. Then, why using Linux will minimize the support required. Finally, doing the actual install support work. jeff --- Jeffry Smith Technical Sales Consultant Mission Critical Linux [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone:603.930.9739 fax:978.446.9470 --- Thought for today: shell out vi. [Unix] To spawn an interactive subshell from within a program (e.g., a mailer or editor). Bang foo runs foo in a subshell, while bang alone shells out. ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front)
At 1:19 PM -0400 7/25/01, Jeffry Smith wrote: Dan Jenkins said: This does bring up a point - assuming these folks are currently using Windows (or planning to), how do they intend to do support on that? Through the service organization that installed it. Through their licensed NT-certified support staff. Through their Microsoft-trained in-house support staff. Through their paid support contracts. On just about every third street corner in town where there's a little computer store. Not saying support is great, but there's a feeling it is at least available. This really is an excellent issue. Are you ready to just evangelize or back it up with a support contract for local organizations? Ray -- --- Raymond Cote, President Appropriate Solutions, Inc. www.AppropriateSolutions.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 603.924.6079(v) POB 458, Peterborough, NH 03458603.924.8668(f) ** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text in the *body* (*not* the subject line) of the letter: unsubscribe gnhlug **
Re: Backing talk with action? (was: Re: News from the Mouth front)
Ray Cote wrote: At 1:19 PM -0400 7/25/01, Jeffry Smith wrote: Dan Jenkins said: This does bring up a point - assuming these folks are currently using Windows (or planning to), how do they intend to do support on that? You got the quoting a bit off. I didn't say the above. It was Jeffry Smith who said that. Ray Cote also wrote: Through the service organization that installed it. Through their licensed NT-certified support staff. Through their Microsoft-trained in-house support staff. Through their paid support contracts. On just about every third street corner in town where there's a little computer store. Not saying support is great, but there's a feeling it is at least available. This really is an excellent issue. Are you ready to just evangelize or back it up with a support contract for local organizations? My company has been providing support contracts for Linux (as well as the other operating systems) for years. (Our first support contract for Linux was in 1993 or 1994.) I don't evangelize. I use the best tool to solve a problem. In many cases, it is Linux. In some cases, it isn't. In most cases, I mix. For example, Windows and Mac desktops, Linux file, backup mail servers, NT fax server, Novell SNA gateway, and IBM RS/6000 running AIX at one client. Well to slightly nitpick the above sources of support. This discussion started out about doing an installation for a non-profit with apparently NO money: they needed volunteers to install everything gratis. So (1) the service organization doesn't exist since it won't get paid, (2) they have no support staff (NT-certified or not), (3) ditto for in-house support staff, (4) ditto again for support contracts and (5) the little computer store wants to get paid too. They probably have someone in-house who sort of knows how to operate a computer - or who has a niece or nephew who does. ;-) (I may be exaggerating a bit.) What you say may be true for larger organizations. However, most of the companies and organizations I deal with are too small (under 500 employees) to have a support staff per se - that's what they hire my company for :-). In my mind, small businesses/organizations have the most to gain from Linux. The licensing costs are far heavier for a small (presumably cash poor) organization than a Fortune 1000. The equipment costs are often lower for comparable (or better) performance. Support costs for a small group cannot be evened out over a large population of users. They rarely can be predicted and must be dealt with as they arise - rather than budgeted from experience. So often problems are handled by people who are not technical staff, just computer literate - or at least willing to try. This sometimes means a poorly or non-trained user fiddling with a NT server to see what fixes the problem of the moment. I have found that a Linux server is generally harder to semi-randomly click at than a NT server. This is a benefit for a stable production environment. Non-trained users shouldn't be administering servers. Since a NT/2000 server looks like a Windows desktop, I have often found organizations treat it with the same, somewhat cavalier disregard as the corner PC. Again, we're talking organizations where the servers are next to the copier or in the back closet. A well configured Linux server can run with minimal attention and negligible downtime, in my experience. (So can a Novell server, for that matter - at least the older versions.) A well configured NT server can too - if little modification is done with it once set up and it is not heavily loaded with different tasks. I've found I can easily remotely manage a Linux server. I cannot do this as easily with NT. So I often recommend Linux. It's less expensive for the client, it allows them to spend the savings on training or support - which they are going to need anyways, and it's easier for us to administer remotely - saving them on-site visit costs. Remote administration also makes service calls more convenient and quicker - reducing the temptation for local users to fiddle to try and fix it. -- Dan Jenkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Rastech Inc., 21 Curtis Lane, Bedford, NH 03110 -- 603-627-0443 *** Technical Support for a Quarter Century begin:vcard n:Jenkins;Dan tel;fax:1-603-627-7513 tel;work:1-603-627-0443 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.rastech.com org:Rastech Inc. adr:;;21 Curtis Lane;Bedford;NH;03110;USA version:2.1 email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] fn:Dan Jenkins end:vcard
