Re: 24-hour or 12-our clock and %p
Hi Ask, If the comment explicitly says 12-hour clock, I think you should translate it as 12-hour+am/pm (%p). Hannie Op 01-03-15 om 15:07 schreef Ask Hjorth Larsen: Hello Hannie I should clarify: This is when the translator comment says 12-hour clock format and there's another string called 24-hour clock format. I have to translate both, and I leave the 24-hour clock format unchanged. The locale settings should choose the 24-hour clock format presumably. But how do I translate the 12-hour one, in case someone ends up actually seeing that? There is no correct unambiguous way to translate it and still respect the translator comment. So do I translate it to 24-hour clock (disrespecting comment), 12-hour+am/pm (incorrect in many countries) or 12-hour (ambiguous)? Perhaps it doesn't matter at all, but since I spend time thinking about it every time, maybe someone had a rule. Oh well. I guess I will go for the ambiguous translation in the end, in spite of the fact that 12-hour clocks on computers are pretty useless :) Best regards Ask 2015-03-01 10:47 GMT+01:00 Hannie Dumoleyn lafeber-dumole...@zonnet.nl: We, the Dutch translation team, use the 24-hour clock most of the time, since this is custom in our country. Hannie Op 28-02-15 om 20:05 schreef Ask Hjorth Larsen: Hello In many languages including Danish, am and pm (%p in strftime) do not exist. When using the 12-hour clock one would simply say e.g. 11:32 which is of course ambiguous. On a computer one would use the 24-hour clock to simply avoid this ambiguity. However we still have to provide a translation for strings like %l:%M %p. So what is the most correct translation? 1) Force the user to use 24-hour clock by simply translating it to %H:%M, or 2) use the imprecise %l:%M, or 3) retain the alien %l:%M %p? The user should probably not be using 12-hour clock in the first place, and so we would presumably rely on the locale settings already making it so that the correct code gets called. I would therefore guess that option 3) is better. In some cases, though, the idea might be that the translator chooses the format by means of the translation, and so it would be completely pointless not to use the most natural, 24-hour string. Are there any rules or specifications for this? Best regards Ask ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: 24-hour or 12-our clock and %p
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 12:08 PM, k...@keldix.com wrote: For Danish, ther is no 12-hour format. The best is then to leave the specification blank. This is a terrible suggestion. You should never leave a string blank. If you intend to use the same as the original version, you should copy it. Alternatively you can make the 12-hour format the same as the 24-hour format. If by that you mean using %H, then again this is a terrible suggestion (see earlier mail in this thread, this will appear as a bug to the user). -- Alexandre Franke ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: 24-hour or 12-our clock and %p
On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 9:56 PM, Alexandre Franke alexandre.fra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 8:05 PM, Ask Hjorth Larsen asklar...@gmail.com wrote: 1) Force the user to use 24-hour clock by simply translating it to %H:%M, or 2) use the imprecise %l:%M, or 3) retain the alien %l:%M %p? In any case it shouldn't be 1. If someone requests time in 12hrs format and sees 14:37, they will think it's a bug and they'd be right. I'd still go with 3 as it's the one fitting the original version the most and %p could in some cases even be translated (replacing am with something like in the morning). What Alexandre said. Keep in mind that we have a user setting for this[1]. It's not exposed in the UI but the code honors it, so you should provide the alien translation. [1] gsettings get org.gnome.desktop.interface clock-format Rui ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: 24-hour or 12-our clock and %p
For Danish, ther is no 12-hour format. The best is then to leave the specification blank. Alternatively you can make the 12-hour format the same as the 24-hour format. keld On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 03:07:26PM +0100, Ask Hjorth Larsen wrote: Hello Hannie I should clarify: This is when the translator comment says 12-hour clock format and there's another string called 24-hour clock format. I have to translate both, and I leave the 24-hour clock format unchanged. The locale settings should choose the 24-hour clock format presumably. But how do I translate the 12-hour one, in case someone ends up actually seeing that? There is no correct unambiguous way to translate it and still respect the translator comment. So do I translate it to 24-hour clock (disrespecting comment), 12-hour+am/pm (incorrect in many countries) or 12-hour (ambiguous)? Perhaps it doesn't matter at all, but since I spend time thinking about it every time, maybe someone had a rule. Oh well. I guess I will go for the ambiguous translation in the end, in spite of the fact that 12-hour clocks on computers are pretty useless :) Best regards Ask 2015-03-01 10:47 GMT+01:00 Hannie Dumoleyn lafeber-dumole...@zonnet.nl: We, the Dutch translation team, use the 24-hour clock most of the time, since this is custom in our country. Hannie Op 28-02-15 om 20:05 schreef Ask Hjorth Larsen: Hello In many languages including Danish, am and pm (%p in strftime) do not exist. When using the 12-hour clock one would simply say e.g. 11:32 which is of course ambiguous. On a computer one would use the 24-hour clock to simply avoid this ambiguity. However we still have to provide a translation for strings like %l:%M %p. So what is the most correct translation? 1) Force the user to use 24-hour clock by simply translating it to %H:%M, or 2) use the imprecise %l:%M, or 3) retain the alien %l:%M %p? The user should probably not be using 12-hour clock in the first place, and so we would presumably rely on the locale settings already making it so that the correct code gets called. I would therefore guess that option 3) is better. In some cases, though, the idea might be that the translator chooses the format by means of the translation, and so it would be completely pointless not to use the most natural, 24-hour string. Are there any rules or specifications for this? Best regards Ask ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: 24-hour or 12-our clock and %p
Well, I think the best option is number 2. It produces things that are correct in Danish (05:00 and 17:00 can both be 5 o'clock in normal non-computer speech) which, although quite useless due to the ambiguity, is not a problem because no Danish user should/would be using 12-hour clock setting anyway. In the end the problem is that those strings have no reason to exist in the language and therefore it's not well defined how they should be translated. Instead of making things easier, it causes headaches like zero divided by zero. I conclude that it doesn't matter much, and rule that the Danish convention in GNOME from now on is option 2 :) Thank you very much! Best regards Ask 2015-03-02 16:48 GMT+01:00 Rafael Ferreira rafael.f...@gmail.com: 2015-03-02 8:49 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Franke alexandre.fra...@gmail.com: On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 12:08 PM, k...@keldix.com wrote: For Danish, ther is no 12-hour format. The best is then to leave the specification blank. This is a terrible suggestion. You should never leave a string blank. If you intend to use the same as the original version, you should copy it. Alternatively you can make the 12-hour format the same as the 24-hour format. If by that you mean using %H, then again this is a terrible suggestion (see earlier mail in this thread, this will appear as a bug to the user). It looks to me that both 1 and 3 will represent a bug in Danish localization. Forcing 24-hour (option 1) will show a weird 12-hour button that returns 24-hour, while using 12-hour (option 3) will show a 12-hour clock that doesn't exists in Danish language and therefore is weird. How about requesting the developer to hide the 12-hour option when language is Danish? ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: 24-hour or 12-our clock and %p
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 12:49:37PM +0100, Alexandre Franke wrote: On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 12:08 PM, k...@keldix.com wrote: For Danish, ther is no 12-hour format. The best is then to leave the specification blank. This is a terrible suggestion. You should never leave a string blank. If you intend to use the same as the original version, you should copy it. Alternatively you can make the 12-hour format the same as the 24-hour format. If by that you mean using %H, then again this is a terrible suggestion (see earlier mail in this thread, this will appear as a bug to the user). It is not a terrible suggestion, but it is according to the users expectations. However, it is not according to the programmer's intentions, but the programmer's expectations are flawed. Having a specific format for 12-hour times is a design flaw in the APIs. best regards keld ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: 24-hour or 12-our clock and %p
2015-03-02 8:49 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Franke alexandre.fra...@gmail.com: On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 12:08 PM, k...@keldix.com wrote: For Danish, ther is no 12-hour format. The best is then to leave the specification blank. This is a terrible suggestion. You should never leave a string blank. If you intend to use the same as the original version, you should copy it. Alternatively you can make the 12-hour format the same as the 24-hour format. If by that you mean using %H, then again this is a terrible suggestion (see earlier mail in this thread, this will appear as a bug to the user). It looks to me that both 1 and 3 will represent a bug in Danish localization. Forcing 24-hour (option 1) will show a weird 12-hour button that returns 24-hour, while using 12-hour (option 3) will show a 12-hour clock that doesn't exists in Danish language and therefore is weird. How about requesting the developer to hide the 12-hour option when language is Danish? ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: 24-hour or 12-our clock and %p
2015-03-02 16:48 GMT+01:00 Rafael Ferreira rafael.f...@gmail.com: It looks to me that both 1 and 3 will represent a bug in Danish localization. Forcing 24-hour (option 1) will show a weird 12-hour button that returns 24-hour, while using 12-hour (option 3) will show a 12-hour clock that doesn't exists in Danish language and therefore is weird. How about requesting the developer to hide the 12-hour option when language is Danish? Like this https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=673721 ? :) FWIW I just keep %p in the date format, but for the user it's irrelevant, as she won't be offered 12-hour clock mode in the first place (at least in gnome-control-center). Best regards, -- Piotr Drąg http://raven.fedorapeople.org/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: 24-hour or 12-our clock and %p
2015-02-28 16:05 GMT-03:00 Ask Hjorth Larsen asklar...@gmail.com: 1) Force the user to use 24-hour clock by simply translating it to %H:%M, or 2) use the imprecise %l:%M, or 3) retain the alien %l:%M %p? Brazilian Portuguese team co-coordinator here. In Brazil we know the 12-hour clock due to some USA influence in the culture, but 24-hour clock is the standard. I don't know a single Brazilian that use 12-hour clock in the localized environment, but since the option 1 looks like a bug for the end-user and since the 12-hour clock is known for Brazilians, we opted to use 3. Cheers, Rafael Ferreira ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: 24-hour or 12-our clock and %p
We, the Dutch translation team, use the 24-hour clock most of the time, since this is custom in our country. Hannie Op 28-02-15 om 20:05 schreef Ask Hjorth Larsen: Hello In many languages including Danish, am and pm (%p in strftime) do not exist. When using the 12-hour clock one would simply say e.g. 11:32 which is of course ambiguous. On a computer one would use the 24-hour clock to simply avoid this ambiguity. However we still have to provide a translation for strings like %l:%M %p. So what is the most correct translation? 1) Force the user to use 24-hour clock by simply translating it to %H:%M, or 2) use the imprecise %l:%M, or 3) retain the alien %l:%M %p? The user should probably not be using 12-hour clock in the first place, and so we would presumably rely on the locale settings already making it so that the correct code gets called. I would therefore guess that option 3) is better. In some cases, though, the idea might be that the translator chooses the format by means of the translation, and so it would be completely pointless not to use the most natural, 24-hour string. Are there any rules or specifications for this? Best regards Ask ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: 24-hour or 12-our clock and %p
Hello Hannie I should clarify: This is when the translator comment says 12-hour clock format and there's another string called 24-hour clock format. I have to translate both, and I leave the 24-hour clock format unchanged. The locale settings should choose the 24-hour clock format presumably. But how do I translate the 12-hour one, in case someone ends up actually seeing that? There is no correct unambiguous way to translate it and still respect the translator comment. So do I translate it to 24-hour clock (disrespecting comment), 12-hour+am/pm (incorrect in many countries) or 12-hour (ambiguous)? Perhaps it doesn't matter at all, but since I spend time thinking about it every time, maybe someone had a rule. Oh well. I guess I will go for the ambiguous translation in the end, in spite of the fact that 12-hour clocks on computers are pretty useless :) Best regards Ask 2015-03-01 10:47 GMT+01:00 Hannie Dumoleyn lafeber-dumole...@zonnet.nl: We, the Dutch translation team, use the 24-hour clock most of the time, since this is custom in our country. Hannie Op 28-02-15 om 20:05 schreef Ask Hjorth Larsen: Hello In many languages including Danish, am and pm (%p in strftime) do not exist. When using the 12-hour clock one would simply say e.g. 11:32 which is of course ambiguous. On a computer one would use the 24-hour clock to simply avoid this ambiguity. However we still have to provide a translation for strings like %l:%M %p. So what is the most correct translation? 1) Force the user to use 24-hour clock by simply translating it to %H:%M, or 2) use the imprecise %l:%M, or 3) retain the alien %l:%M %p? The user should probably not be using 12-hour clock in the first place, and so we would presumably rely on the locale settings already making it so that the correct code gets called. I would therefore guess that option 3) is better. In some cases, though, the idea might be that the translator chooses the format by means of the translation, and so it would be completely pointless not to use the most natural, 24-hour string. Are there any rules or specifications for this? Best regards Ask ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: 24-hour or 12-our clock and %p
Hi, On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 8:05 PM, Ask Hjorth Larsen asklar...@gmail.com wrote: 1) Force the user to use 24-hour clock by simply translating it to %H:%M, or 2) use the imprecise %l:%M, or 3) retain the alien %l:%M %p? In any case it shouldn't be 1. If someone requests time in 12hrs format and sees 14:37, they will think it's a bug and they'd be right. I'd still go with 3 as it's the one fitting the original version the most and %p could in some cases even be translated (replacing am with something like in the morning). -- Alexandre Franke ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
24-hour or 12-our clock and %p
Hello In many languages including Danish, am and pm (%p in strftime) do not exist. When using the 12-hour clock one would simply say e.g. 11:32 which is of course ambiguous. On a computer one would use the 24-hour clock to simply avoid this ambiguity. However we still have to provide a translation for strings like %l:%M %p. So what is the most correct translation? 1) Force the user to use 24-hour clock by simply translating it to %H:%M, or 2) use the imprecise %l:%M, or 3) retain the alien %l:%M %p? The user should probably not be using 12-hour clock in the first place, and so we would presumably rely on the locale settings already making it so that the correct code gets called. I would therefore guess that option 3) is better. In some cases, though, the idea might be that the translator chooses the format by means of the translation, and so it would be completely pointless not to use the most natural, 24-hour string. Are there any rules or specifications for this? Best regards Ask ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
