Re: [Goanet] Evaluating the Past
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Mario Miranda Festival, July 24-26, 2008 Old GMC Building, Panjim. June 24, 4.30 pm Children's Day (with Bookworm). June 25, 5 pm Mario's medium analyzed. Short films on Mario. Featuring the first public appearance in Goa by Amruta Patil, graphic novelist and Goa Art College graduate. Her recent graphic novel, 'Kari' (Harper Collins) earned wide acclaim. July 26, original play by the Mustard Seeds Arts Company (5pm) * * * 2008 Goan International convention currently on at Mississauga University of Toronto (UTM), July 23-27, 2008. http://2008goanconvention.com/index.php * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * --- On Mon, 7/21/08, Miguel Braganza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Dr.Santosh, Well, if a debate on the infamous Inquisition can generate some humour ... and an invite from Bosco to the Goan Convention then all is not lost. What was that about spurious distraction with family jewels? Dear Hr. Miguel, As I am sure you know, I am only trying to understand the relationship between all the disparate strands of wisdom that Gilbert is imparting to us through the several threads he has weaved into the fabric of Goanet, in response to your post under this thread. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think Gilbert is trying to tell us why the inquisition was nothing but dispensation of justice against robbers, burglars, adulterers, polygamists, polyandrists and polygynists. All of these criminals received the appropriate grade of punishment that they deserved depending on how far they had strayed from the righteous path - the thoroughfare of rectitude that had been single-handedly paved by his own religion. There is also a hint that today's divorcees who remarry deserve to be sentenced under the statutes of the inquisition for the crime of serial monogamy. Such a fate might also be appropriate for Hollywood personalities. Cheers, Santosh --- http://www.GOANET.org --- Tri Continental Film Festival 2008 July 25 - 30, 2008 Goa, India http://www.moviesgoa.org/page/tri_continental/ http://www.moviesgoa.org/tricon/schedule_2008.pdf ---
[Goanet] Evaluating the Past
Dear Dr.Santosh, Well, if a debate on the infamous Inquisition can generate some humour ... and an invite from Bosco to the Goan Convention then all is not lost. What was that about spurious distraction with family jewels? Is that what Dotor Jose Colaco called burglary under the Theft Act of 1969 or just robbing the day lights? Mog asundi. Miguel Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:40:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] Evaluating the Past Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am neither interested in correcting the path of a wayward Christian nor that of an estranged agnostic. My intent was simply to point out the absurdity of drawing a parallel between the crimes of the inquisition and the errors of pre-scientific medicine. To illustrate this by using Gilbert's latest spurious distraction, the robber who makes off with Gilbert's family jewels has nothing in common with the patient who goes home with his treatment. Cheers, Santosh From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/
[Goanet] Evaluating the Past
Sun Jul 20 11:29:51 PDT 2008 From: Miguel Braganza miguelbraganza at yahoo.co.in My personal choices as punishment for the Robber would depend on the reason for the robbery, the circumstances and the robber's state of mind at the time of the act. Mario observes: Kitem mhontai, re? ...depend on the reason for the robbery...?? Is this for you to judge in a country of laws? What about breaking the law have you missed? A good judge will sort out the reason for the robbery before applying sentencing. This is a good example why individuals with pretensions of sympathy and sentimental baggage cannot be depended on to protect the rest of society. A professional robber would make hay manipulating such a victim. Miguel wrote: Just imprisonment, rigorous or simple, solves nothing and one gains nothing from the loss of a man who could have been someone's son, brother, father instead of just being in jail. Mario asks: Shouldn't the robber have thought of their son, brother, etc. before committing the crime? Doesn't imprisonment prevent robbery to others and give the robber an opportunity at redemption and counseling and therapy? Miguel wrote: Of course, If I was to seem this man immediately after the assualt, I might want to hammer the daylights out of him. Mario observes: So much for redeeming the robber and considering all the circumstances of his life and society's culpability in his crime.
Re: [Goanet] Evaluating the Past
Hi Miguel, Your message below with the Mog asundi was very touching. Likely you have given this (mercy not sacrifice) a deep thought. So let me ask your (and anybody else who would like to volunteer their) opinion. This is a special invitation to attorneys and those in the law-and-order (police) field. A 30 year old male robber breaks into your home. He steals the jewelry, physically assaults a member of your family and flees. The robber is caught and confesses to the crime. His guilt is beyond doubt. What would be your suggestions as to the appropriate punishment for this robber? Please provide the punishment options in decreasing order of preference. No long explanations needed. This is not a trick question and the answers need not be tricky or complicated. Thanks in anticipation to you (and others) for your cooperation. Regards, GL - Miguel Braganza But go and learn what it means 'I will have mercy and not sacrifice'; for I have not come to call the righteous but the sinners to repentance. Matthew 9:13 New Testament Mog asundi. Miguel
[Goanet] Evaluating the Past
Dear Gilbert, First let us contextualize your question: this is a discussion on your comparison of the infamous INQUISITION with mediaval MEDICAL PRACTICES, in order to JUSTIFY the former. Dr. Santosh Helkar, had rightly challenged this odious comaparison and I had supported his view. If a 30 year male breaks into my home, assaults a member of my family and decamps with jewellery, then the correct English and legal word for it is ROBBERY, not STEALING. Stealing is when the act is done UNKNOWN to the other. My personal choices as punishment for the Robber would depend on the reason for the robbery, the circumstances and the robber's state of mind at the time of the act. Some men get boistrous when drunk and are repentent when sober. The problem is alcoholism, not criminal bent of mind. It would meet my ends of justice if this man a] returns the robbed jewellery, b] apologises to the person he assaulted and c] undergoes a rehab treatment for alcololism in a recognised rehab facility. No other punishment is needed as far as I am concerned. If he has confessed his crime, repentence cannot be far behind. I would go by the judgement of the lady judge in Australia while sentencing a teenager for hacking into international computer system. this man may have a great career ahead ...like Saul turned Paul. [See Acts 9:1 ff] If the man is a seasoned criminal, with a history of crime, his past actions and his psycholigical profile will need to be considered before determining what needs to be done. Just imprisonment, rigorous or simple, solves nothing and one gains nothing from the loss of a man who could have been someone's son, brother, father instead of just being in jail. Of course, If I was to seem this man immediately after the assualt, I might want to hammer the daylights out of him. That would be my anger at work, not a calculated means of correcting the wrong. The Grand Judges of the Inquisition had no cause for anger. They went about their work methodically over a lng period of time. Worst of all, they blasphemed Jesus Christ who died on the cross for our sins ...when actually he should have crucified Judas for betraying him, Peter for denying him and abused his desciples for falling asleep while he was suffering and praying in the Garden of Olives. The Women's rights and other organisations wanted the five boys who were accused of raping an Art College student to be castrated. It was later found that the girl was not raped at all. Several priests in USA and now in Australia have been proven to have molested young boys and girls who were entrusted in their care. One case that has been highlighted is of one priest RAPING TWO SISTERS REPEATEDLY WHEN THEY WERE STILL CHILDREN in Australia. The World Youth Day has only served to bring that in deep focus. Who would blame the people if they thought like the Women's groups in Goa? What would YOU suggest as the appropriate punishment for those proven to have molested or raped or both in this context??? Would YOU send your recommendation in writing to the Pope, the guardian of the Christian values on Earth? Would YOU justify an Inquisition of the Clergy the world over, including your current parish? Inquisition was justified as a means to maintain the PURITY of belief. It seems to be needed now more than then. It is a pity that Dr. Santosh Helekar, a professed atheist/agnostic rationalist, should actually bring home the point of what is essentially a CHRISTian belief:REPENTENCE , not punishment, as the first option. No one can claim to be Christian and justify Inquisition at the same time. That is akin to storing ice-cubes in Hell. Mog asundi. Miguel Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 04:54:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] Evaluating the Past Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Miguel, So let me ask your (and anybody else who would like to volunteer their) opinion. This is a special invitation to attorneys and those in the law-and-order (police) field. A 30 year old male robber breaks into your home. He steals the jewelry, physically assaults a member of your family and flees.? The robber is caught and confesses to the crime. His guilt is beyond doubt. What would be your suggestions as to the appropriate punishment for this robber? Please provide the punishment options in decreasing order of preference.? No long explanations needed.? This is not a trick question and the answers need not be tricky or complicated. ? Thanks in anticipation to you (and others) for your cooperation. Regards, GL ? ? - Miguel Braganza But go and learn what it means 'I will have mercy and not sacrifice'; for I have not come to call the righteous but the sinners to repentance. Matthew 9:13 New Testament Mog asundi. Miguel Get an email ID as [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address
Re: [Goanet] Evaluating the Past
-Original Message- From: Gilbert Lawrence What would be your suggestions as to the appropriate punishment for this robber? Kitem re irmao Gilbert...having a slow Sunday?? Evaluating the Past and seeking punishment for the future?? Why dont you jump into the car and dash across the I90 and share your experiences with other Goans coming together at the 2008 International Goan Convention next week in Toronto? - Bosco www.2008goanconvention.com
Re: [Goanet] Evaluating the Past
[1] Gilbert: A 30 year old male robber breaks into your home. He steals the jewelry, physically assaults a member of your family and flees. The robber is caught and confesses to the crime. His guilt is beyond doubt. [2] Miguel: If a 30 year male breaks into my home, assaults a member of my family and decamps with jewellery, then the correct English and legal word for it is ROBBERY, not STEALING. Stealing is when the act is done UNKNOWN to the other. My personal choices as punishment for the Robber would depend on the reason for the robbery, the circumstances and the robber's state of mind at the time of the act jc's response: While I do not profess to know much about the subject of English legal system and with due respect to the learned opinions of others, I venture the following based upon ALL the available facts (as submitted by Gilbert')...and on the Theft Act 1968 (as amended) This fictitious individual is IMHO guilty of the following crimes (involving two different statutes) 1.Burglarly 2. Theft 3. Battery Comment: Robbery - only if Theft occured post intimidation or a threat. No evidence that theft occured after assault Comment 2: No leniency based upon any mitigating circumstances should be expected after the assault/battery Comment 3: The meaning of the word Stealing is not as restrictive as suggested by Miguel. Post-Script: NO justification for the following a: The unholy Inquisition b: The biased accounts of that unholy Inquisition. c: Whenever one wishes to judge an event, ALL the facts of the case should be examined. d: Just because there are recorded facts on one side - does not mean that there were NO other facts. e: It is my honest opinion that there is selective and religious-politically motivated anti-Catholic propaganda spread by way of reference to the Inquisition. Some of it is LIES (please see Godfrey's post - link infra) f: Sometimes, this propaganda is selectively used to hammer the Portuguese, at other times ...the Catholic Church. g: The Catholic Church is partly responsible for the continuance of this propaganda. It should come clean and apologize for its actions. h: Jewish and Hindu writers (eg Priolkar) should have also come clean about the brutality of their own religions against others. That would have made them more credible. i: At this moment, they are just as credible as Gilbert - which isn't very much. jc for further reading:- 1: The most unholy Inquisition - foreword http://www.colaco.net/1/InquiForeword.htm 2: Bigots spreading distortions about the Inquisition http://www.colaco.net/1/GGinquisitionLies.htm 3: How about conversion to humane behaviour? http://www.colaco.net/3/PravinHumane.htm
Re: [Goanet] Evaluating the Past
--- On Sun, 7/20/08, Miguel Braganza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is a pity that Dr. Santosh Helekar, a professed atheist/agnostic rationalist, should actually bring home the point of what is essentially a CHRISTian belief:REPENTENCE , not punishment, as the first option. No one can claim to be Christian and justify Inquisition at the same time. That is akin to storing ice-cubes in Hell. I am neither interested in correcting the path of a wayward Christian nor that of an estranged agnostic. My intent was simply to point out the absurdity of drawing a parallel between the crimes of the inquisition and the errors of pre-scientific medicine. To illustrate this by using Gilbert's latest spurious distraction, the robber who makes off with Gilbert's family jewels has nothing in common with the patient who goes home with his treatment. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Evaluating the Past
Dear Dr. Jose, If charges are framed in a Court of law and evidence is brought on record to support them, GENERALLY no leniency is possible. Fortunately, there have been exceptions. Inquisition cannot be defended. The use of Inquisition of 18th Century to do a Shuddikaran now is as reprehensible as the purification obtained by the Inquisition. In this I wholly agree with you. One can demonise the Inquisition and glorify the Kalinga war. Both had horrific consequences for the innocent. Shivaji's killing of Afzal Khan can be seen as bravery . or as treachery. It all depends on the perspective. 1857 was a 'Mutiny' to some, and a 'War of independence' to others but was a consequence of a RUMOUR. Has anyone proved or disproved the rumour?? In Goa, there are two opinions on WHO constitutes the MARTYRS of Cuncolim ...the Desais or the Jesuits. May be both were WRONG. One is also not quite sure if the Bhandaris, Gawdis, Kunbis, Velips and Dhangars can be, by any stretch of imagination be called as 'Hindus' in terms of their traditional worship. Is Hinduism an universal default option. Are the pygmies of Congo who did not convert to Christianity or Islam also Hindus?? Are Communists Hindus? Just saw a film titled The Rabbit Fence the other day. They actually had a Protector of Aborogines to terrorize the poor people Down Under in New Zealand till 1970!! Mog asundi. Miguel --- On Mon, 21/7/08, J. Colaco jc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: J. Colaco jc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Evaluating the Past To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Cc: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED], santosh helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, 21 July, 2008, 2:34 AM [1] Gilbert: The robber is caught and confesses to the crime. His guilt is beyond doubt. [2] Miguel: If a 30 year male breaks into my home, assaults a member of my family and decamps with jewellery, then the correct English and legal word for it is ROBBERY, not STEALING. jc's response: Theft Act 1968 (as amended) This fictitious individual is IMHO guilty of the following crimes (involving two different statutes) 1.Burglarly 2. Theft 3. Battery Comment: Robbery - only if Theft occured post intimidation or a threat. No evidence that theft occured after assault Post-Script: NO justification for the following a: The unholy Inquisition b: The biased accounts of that unholy Inquisition. jc Get an email ID as [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address
Re: [Goanet] Evaluating the past
--- On Fri, 7/18/08, Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did I read you right, that the Greeks like Hippocrates or Galen were not practicing and teaching what they (and we) call scientific medicine? (see below) Gilbert, Yes, you read me right. Their medicine was pre-scientific. They practiced Aristotlean philosophy and common sense. The scientific method was not fully developed until the 13th century A.D. when Roger Bacon described it, although the Arabs were using its precursor as early as the 8th century. It was first applied in a systematic and comprehensive manner by Galileo in the 16th century. It was first introduced into medicine by Semmelweis and Pasteur in the 19th century. Modern medicine did not become fully scientific in the sense of using the evidence-based approach until the second half of the 20th century. In fact, surgery started relying on this approach only in the 1980s and 1990s. As far as your nonsense about scientific fads is concerned, perhaps you are referring to some pre-scientific or pseudoscientific opinions and impressions. Real science does not have fads. It only has hypotheses that become established principles or have to be modified based on objective evidence. BTW, I noticed that you were not able to defend your moral equivalence of inquisition and medicine, with anything you wrote in your latest post in the Evaluating the past thread you created for that purpose. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Evaluating the past
Hi Santosh, I avoid giving a response to your response to my post. Yet I could not resist your long explanation of what you got from my post. Like in many fields, medicine has many scientific fads which do not stand the test of time. With the passage of time we learn from those mis-conceptions and come up with what we belive is a new (perhaps right) concept. Just as we are forgiving of scientists for coming up with these fads, (aka scientific models) we should be considerate of individuals in other fields. Perhaps, a decade from now, some smart scientists may describe us (your work and mine) as victims of the 21st entury fad. Did I read you right, that the Greeks like Hippocrates or Galen were not practicing and teaching what they (and we) call scientific medicine? (see below) From Wikipedia: Hippocrates (460 BC - 370 BC) was an ancient Greek physician of the Age of Pericles, and was considered one of the most outstanding figures in the history of medicine. He is referred to as the father of medicine in recognition of his lasting contributions to the field as the founder of the Hippocratic school of medicine. This intellectual school revolutionized medicine in ancient Greece, establishing it as a discipline distinct from other fields that it had traditionally been associated with (notably theurgy and philosophy), thus making medicine a profession. However, the achievements of the writers of the Corpus, the practitioners of Hippocratic medicine, and the actions of Hippocrates himself are often commingled; thus very little is known about what Hippocrates actually thought, wrote and did. Nevertheless, Hippocrates is commonly portrayed as the paragon of the ancient physician. In particular, he is credited with greatly advancing the systematic study of clinical medicine, summing up the medical knowledge of previous schools, and prescribing practices for physicians through the Hippocratic Oath and other works. Galen (Claudius Galenus; AD 129) of Pergamon was a prominent ancient Greek physician, whose theories dominated Western medical science for well over a millennium. In case you wish to skip responding to this, it is all right. We are forgiving. I do not plan to continue this dialogue. Regards, GL -- Santosh: Use of healing methods such as prayer, anointing and exorcism can be regarded as equivalent to pre-scientific cures such as blood letting. While there are deficiencies in understanding many details of the underlying science, they are quite solidly based on objective evidence and a sound rationale, consistent with the rest of science.
[Goanet] Evaluating the Past
I am not an authority on Goa's (or any other) history. Neither am I an authority on medical history. Yet as a history buff, I welcome a cross-comparison of events across other disciplines. And we should be open in evaluating how other scientific fields look at the past and remember those achievements along with the shortcomings. At the end of the day, our understanding today is built on the shoulders of those who preceded us along with their achievements and limitations. It is difficult and unfair to judge the practices of the 16th - 19th century with the way things are done now. I would like to compare the practices in medicine - a field I am familiar, with the way things were done THEN and NOW. Till the 19th century, the most common treatment for many illnesses was to bleed the patient. Often this directly led to or contributed to the patient's death. A great example is the death of George Washington in 1799, two years after completing his terms as the first President and the Father of the USA. Were physicians of that period heinous? Yet, one does not have to go that far back. In the field of cancer, fifty years ago, breast cancer was treated by removing the breast, all the muscles of the chestwall and in some cases, the ribs. Quite a few of the patients were left with a swollen non-functioning arm. Considering that now we treat breast cancer without even removing the breast, were those physicians (some famous) wicked? That would call for the re-classification of many surgeons from Tata Memorial Hospital, Bombay, and other cancer hospitals across the world, who have been described as outstanding. Often cancer treatments even as little as two decades ago (and sometimes today) are described as the effects of the treatment is worse that the disease. Some of these approaches had a success rate of only 15% - 25% with an operative mortality rate of 30-50%. (tumors of the brain, pancreas etc etc.) Yet these practices were undertaken, because not doing so was having an even worse outcome. Others in academic medicine may even justify the side-effects and mortality of treatment is as the unintended consequences of medical therapy. Few others may allude that these individual patient's death contributed to scientific data (a sacrifice at the alter of medical science). In the field of radiology, many physicians died (from radiation burns and radiation induced leukemia) exposing their patients and themselves to excessive and un-needed radiation. So how does one differentiate 'wrong-doings' from sincere attempts to improve an individual situation and / or provide a service to society? I guess the answer lies in MOTIVATION of the INDIVIDUAL (person) undertaking the practice in question. The other side of the same coin is the presence or absence of available ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS. This may apply to medicine, religion, practitioners of law-and-order, those in the military, and leaders of civil society. Even these end-points may be tricky. In medicine, one can accuse cancer surgeons of doing big operations for monetary gain. Yet many of them who developed these procedures were considered Fathers or leaders of the field and did not have extra monetary gains from their work, other than building a reputation. Others who undertook these procedures, and were monetarily compensated for the specific practice, were practicing The Standard of Care of the time (aka scientific thinking of the period or the practice of the era). Should we condemn them as atrocious for practicing the craft of their period (which has changed now)? Using similar standards, it is likely we ourselves will be judged in about two decades from now, by the attitudes, writings and philosophy that may be different from today. As we judge the period of the Inquisition (and the decades leading to its introduction), one needs to evaluate the societal situation and the political climate of the time, and what was the Inquisition hoping to accomplish. Was the social situation WORSE WITH the Inquisition? Or was the social situation bad IN SPITE OF the Inquisition? A glimpse of the life of this period can be gleamed from documents and biographies of some of their societal leaders. Very little happens in vacuum and hence it is important to inquire - what, why, when, how of the victims and the perpetrators. If the reader is seeking to read about the turmoil in Europe in the period, one can, as an example, read about the life of 'Girolamo Savanarola', a monk who was burned at the stake in 1498. These are some classical views that describe the turmoil that impacted society and the leaders of the society of that time. Today, science has a new explanation as to what triggered these massive societal changes including famine, disease and epidemics across Europe and elsewhere. I think the explanation of Threat of Protestantism is much passe, though that is the official
