Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Even though recast as a nationalist (whatever that is supposed to mean) these days, F.L. Gomes was delightfully ambivalent over his Indian and European traditions. This has been adeptly pointed out by Dr Nishtha Desai points out in her interesting paper: http://www.mail-archive.com/goanet@lists.goanet.org/msg51664.html QUOTE In the case of Cunha's predecessor Francisco Luis Gomes (1829-1869), one finds that his nationalism is constructed on the framework of his Christian religious belief and his faith in the superiority of Western civilisation. Gomes states: The most powerful instruments of civilisation are two: the Christian religion, and education . He goes on to discuss how conversions could be achieved in British India. He gives importance to the use of tact and suggests that Britain learn from Portugal: Portugal converted a portion of India to the Catholic religion with the arms of her soldiers, with the blood of her martyrs, with the miracles of her saints, and with the fires of her Inquisition. Those who were vanquished in this struggle became Christians and Portuguese. England might imitate the example, except as regards force... ...He comments: Cholera and the Thug were born in the same country and in the same year. India is their native land... All impartial men desired India for India according to Gomes. At the same time he asserts: To men of liberal principles and to mankind it is perfectly indifferent whether India is called English or Brahmanical; what they cannot consent to is that the domination be exploitation instead of paternal tutelage. He believed that because India was ridden with rivalries of different dynasties, caste hatred and religious antagonisms, it had been possible for England to conquer her; With only one religion, only one dynasty, only one caste, India would have been invincible. I was born in the East Indies, once the cradle of poetry, philosophy andhistory and now their tomb. I belong to that race which composed the Mahabharata and invented chess... But this nation which made codes of its poems and formulated politics in a game is no longer alive! It survives imprisoned in its own country [...] I ask for India liberty and light; as for myself, more happy than my countrymen, I am free -- civis sum Perhaps because of the desire to project Gomes as a nationalist the lastline is often not quoted. This line clearly reveals Gomes's perception of himself as free on account of his being able to live in Portugal as a Portuguese citizen and consequently better of than his fellow countrymen. Does this mean that he was not a nationalist? UNQUOTE So, can his views also be seen as a reflection of the Catholic Bamon-versus-Chardo rivalry that dominated Goa for much of the 20th century, and possibly before? Of course, even this would not degitimise the wider point he was making... though the context is important too. FN 2009/11/23 Antonio Menezes ac.mene...@gmail.com: Thank you Tony de Sa for reminding me about the book '' Os bramanes '' by Francisco Luis Gomes. Francisco Luis of Navelim was elected a deputy to represent Goa in Portugal Parliament. In his maiden speech in Parliament, I believe, he threatened fellow Portuguese deputies with a statement that he hailed from a great country that that has been breeding some great and powerful people called brahmins. It is not known whether by mentioning brahmins , he wanted his fellow deputies to show him greater deference or whether he wanted his land to be free from the colonial yoke. The fact remains, invaders have been freely moving in and out of India for centuries, notwithstanding great bramanical powers , and even the colonial masters of his land stayed put for another century after his glorious speech. -- Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490 Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism ANOTHER GOA: http://tiny.cc/anothergoa
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
fredericknoro...@gmail.comfredericknoro...@gmail.com : Oh, you guys are just creating straw men of people you don't like, and then attacking them. That's super easy, and doesn't need an intellect as powerful as yours to do. Thanks for the left handed compliment and the explanation of 'straw man'. The post was meant as a joke and I am sure that the august professor will see it as the same (if he can manage to find time to see the post what with him being busy with IFFI and his professorial duties). So just what makes you think I don't like Augusto? It may interest you to know that according to AP's philosophy, often expressed publicly, your Internet persona does not have to coincide with your real persona! But then Rico, please tell me if you find Augusto's Bamon baiting edifying and meets your exacting literary standards? And didn't Augusto throw the first flame bait? Even the good Bahamas located Doctor faulted the moderators for that! If you don't like something Augusto (or anyone else) says, please tell us why it is illogical, present an alternate set of facts, or otherwise effectively counter his views. Don't tell us what he does not like, what he eats for dinner, the kind of clothes he wears, the bike or jeep he rides/drives, how much entertainment there is or isn't in his village, or the state of his home's library at the time of his birth. Oh how I wish all of Goanet's posts followed the advice you have been dishing out. Alas :-/ And if the good professor is motivated and driven by the advice that you have been gratuitously been offering him (not only in your post but in person also), then I wish him all the best. -- o . . o o_.__' Cheers! \~/ \ / '-.-' Tony de Sa |M: +91 9975 162 897 _|_ Ph: +91 832 2470 148 `` tonyd...@gmail.com W. Somerset Maugham: I always find it more difficult to say the things I mean than the things I don't. .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
2009/11/23 Tony de Sa tonyde...@gmail.com: Dear Tony, Permit me to indulge in one of those practices which we Goanetters are prone to -- catching the debate by its tail, and taking it on quite another road! And didn't Augusto throw the first flame bait? Even the good Bahamas located Doctor faulted the moderators for that! I know you are a man of The Sciences, but your English (above) is having me all confused. Please tell me whether you meant: - the good Bahamas located Doctor ... - the Bahamas good located Doctor ... - the Bahamas-located good Doctor ... - good, the Bahamas-located Doctor ... - the just-as-well Bahamas-located Doctor... Each sentence would, of course, have very differing connotations. But then, we all take ourselves too seriously :-) FN -- Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490 Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism ANOTHER GOA: http://tiny.cc/anothergoa
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Augusto Pinto stated the following: In the Luis - Selma imbroglio it looks like we have a goanet thread here that SEEKS to rival the Dotor Santosh - Padri Ivo one in terms of longevity and boringness. (BTW who won that battle, the Dotor - Padri one I mean ? yyy hhh yawn ... AS IF I CARE ) Mario Goveia very aptly observed: If you do not care, why have you commented on it? Is anyone forcing you read every post on Goanet? -- COMMENT-- Once again, Mario Goveia has made a very good point. It is possible that life in Moira is quite boring, and that GoaNet is possibly the only source of entaertainment. I wonder why Agusto took a circuitous route to have a go at Santoshbab. BTW: Have the GoaNet moderators abandoned their 'zero tolerance' on flame-baits? jc
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com: Augusto Pinto does not like science. I suspect he too believes it is a capitalist, racist and casteist conspiracy against the proletariate. But he has his pet obsessions, which, unfortunately, do not get aired as much on Goanet nowadays. Augusto Pinto's pet fixation centres around bamons and the clout he imagines they wield in these socialistic days, the machinations they are involved in to suppress the non-bamon castes and their exclusivity. Apparently, it is rumoured in Moira circles that his mother was startled by the falling of the book Os Brahmanes ( F. L. Gomes), which fell from a stack of books in his house at Nairobi about the time of his birth - hence his pet obsession. -- o . . o o_.__' Cheers! \~/ \ / '-.-' Tony de Sa |M: +91 9975 162 897 _|_ Ph: +91 832 2470 148 `` tonyd...@gmail.com W. Somerset Maugham: I always find it more difficult to say the things I mean than the things I don't. .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Oh, you guys are just creating straw men of people you don't like, and then attacking them. That's super easy, and doesn't need an intellect as powerful as yours to do. QUOTE A straw man is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to win an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. UNQUOTE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man I know it's not going to make me popular saying this. But: If you don't like something Augusto (or anyone else) says, please tell us why it is illogical, present an alternate set of facts, or otherwise effectively counter his views. Don't tell us what he does not like, what he eats for dinner, the kind of clothes he wears, the bike or jeep he rides/drives, how much entertainment there is or isn't in his village, or the state of his home's library at the time of his birth. I disagree often with the Right Hon. Augusto Pinto, but have to concede that he often has an interesting way of making his point. That not everybody appreciates his sense of humour is a valid point, but we needn't create a straw man about that either. Personally, I do envy (but not in a bad sense) Augusto's writing talent. But I believe that he's letting his potential evaporate by acting disagreeable with some editors and taking long Rip Van Winklesque gaps from writing (a 20 year gap is... almost as long as I failed to shave my beard, that's bad!) Augusto ignore flame-baiting friends (me too!) and just stick to doing those Devanagari-to-English short story translations, and more. Otherwise, who would be there to recognise those pearls hidden among us swines of Goan writing (apologies for all the mixed metaphors but unlike Rafael or you, I wasn't a good student at Kulkarni's or Joshi's class... P. Lal's guest lectures were another matter.) The League of Goa Writing is orphaned without anyone taking up its cause, focussing on the Furtados of the world, and giving it the credibility only a Moidekar could do ... that too via Kathmandu! [http://www.himalmag.com/read.php?id=2951] Tell Kanak that the registration is a bit of a discouraging factor though! As they would have said in another time, kator re bhaji. FN 2009/11/22 Tony de Sa tonyde...@gmail.com: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com: Augusto Pinto does not like science. I suspect he too believes it is a capitalist, racist and casteist conspiracy against the proletariate. But he has his pet obsessions, which, unfortunately, do not get aired as much on Goanet nowadays. Augusto Pinto's pet fixation centres around bamons and the clout he imagines they wield in these socialistic days, the machinations they are involved in to suppress the non-bamon castes and their exclusivity. Apparently, it is rumoured in Moira circles that his mother was startled by the falling of the book Os Brahmanes ( F. L. Gomes), which fell from a stack of books in his house at Nairobi about the time of his birth - hence his pet obsession. -- Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490 Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism ANOTHER GOA: http://tiny.cc/anothergoa
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Frederick Noronha wrote: Oh, you guys are just creating straw men of people you don't like, and then attacking them. That's super easy, and doesn't need an intellect as powerful as yours to do. If you don't like something Augusto (or anyone else) says, please tell us why it is illogical, present an alternate set of facts, or otherwise effectively counter his views. I disagree often with the Right Hon. Augusto Pinto, but have to concede that he often has an interesting way of making his point. Dear Saint Frederick, Would you please advise us who exactly are the you guys are? Are they similar to the Colaco types that you wrote about - not too long ago? Would you (also) please advise us why it was (if it was) illogical to post what (at least) I did in reference to the Right Hon. Augusto Pinto (your terms) wrote wrt Santoshbab and Fr Ivo? And ...when you have the opportunity, Would you please advise IF you have removed (albeit temporarily) the ban on flame baits? yours very sincerely jc
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Considering the fact that Saint Frederick [http://www.premontre.org/subpages/sanctibeati/safred.htm] was born in the 12th century, it is highly improbable that he had access to email. Given the level of how parochial our Goanet can get, it is equally unlikely that someone born in Hallum in Friesland would be interested in our constant bickerings in Goan cyberspace. When JC enters the discussion, it's time to say, I'm outta here! --FN 2009/11/22 J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com: Dear Saint Frederick, Would you please advise us who exactly are the you guys are? Are they similar to the Colaco types that you wrote about - not too long ago? Would you (also) please advise us why it was (if it was) illogical to post what (at least) I did in reference to the Right Hon. Augusto Pinto (your terms) wrote wrt Santoshbab and Fr Ivo? And ...when you have the opportunity, Would you please advise IF you have removed (albeit temporarily) the ban on flame baits? yours very sincerely -- Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490 Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism ANOTHER GOA: http://tiny.cc/anothergoa
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Frederick Noronha wrote Considering the fact that Saint Frederick . When JC enters the discussion, it's time to say, I'm outta here! --FN RESPONSE: Nice duck, FN .Nice. jc -- J. Colaco jc had written earlier: Dear Saint Frederick, Would you please advise us who exactly are the you guys are? Are they similar to the Colaco types that you wrote about - not too long ago? Would you (also) please advise us why it was (if it was) illogical to post what (at least) I did in reference to the Right Hon. Augusto Pinto (your terms) wrote wrt Santoshbab and Fr Ivo? And ...when you have the opportunity, Would you please advise IF you have removed (albeit temporarily) the ban on flame baits?
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Frederick Noronha wrote Considering the fact that Saint Frederick . When JC enters the discussion, it's time to say, I'm outta here! --FN Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:28:52 -0500 From: J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com Nice duck, FN .Nice. Mario observes: Duck? Does a duck have a tail?:-)) I would have said, Be careful not to trip on your tail!
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
--- On Sun, 11/22/09, Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote: When JC enters the discussion, it's time to say, I'm outta here! --FN Noronha does not practice what he preaches. Please note above that he exempts himself from abiding by the following quote, which is a statement he made in his previous post from his high horse: Oh, you guys are just creating straw men of people you don't like, and then attacking them. .Frederick Noronha He also repeatedly breaks Goanet rules, even though he is a Goanet administrator, who has a free ride on his high horse to post anything he wants against anybody without being moderated. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] Goan veterans
Thank you Tony de Sa for reminding me about the book '' Os bramanes '' by Francisco Luis Gomes. Francisco Luis of Navelim was elected a deputy to represent Goa in Portugal Parliament. In his maiden speech in Parliament, I believe, he threatened fellow Portuguese deputies with a statement that he hailed from a great country that that has been breeding some great and powerful people called brahmins. It is not known whether by mentioning brahmins , he wanted his fellow deputies to show him greater deference or whether he wanted his land to be free from the colonial yoke. The fact remains, invaders have been freely moving in and out of India for centuries, notwithstanding great bramanical powers , and even the colonial masters of his land stayed put for another century after his glorious speech.
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Mario, As you know, people respond on Goanet to express their likes and dislikes. Augusto Pinto does not like science. I suspect he too believes it is a capitalist, racist and casteist conspiracy against the proletariate. But he has his pet obsessions, which, unfortunately, do not get aired as much on Goanet nowadays. Cheers, Santosh --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: augusto pinto pinto...@gmail.com In the Luis - Selma imbroglio it looks like we have a goanet thread here that seeks to rival the Dotor Santosh - Padri Ivo one in terms of longevity and boringness. (BTW who won that battle, the Dotor - Padri one I mean ? yyy hhh yawn ... AS IF I CARE ...) Mario observes: If you do not care, why have you commented on it? Is anyone forcing you read every post on Goanet?
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:08:10 +0530 From: augusto pinto pinto...@gmail.com In the Luis - Selma imbroglio it looks like we have a goanet thread here that seeks to rival the Dotor Santosh - Padri Ivo one in terms of longevity and boringness. (BTW who won that battle, the Dotor - Padri one I mean ? yyy hhh yawn ... AS IF I CARE ...) Mario observes: If you do not care, why have you commented on it? Is anyone forcing you read every post on Goanet? Augusto wrote: Here is the latest installment of the Luis - Selma saga: Mario asks: Thanks, but we don't need edited installments from someone who says he doesn't care when we can read the original posts for ourselves.
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Dears In the Luis - Selma imbroglio it looks like we have a goanet thread here that seeks to rival the Dotor Santosh - Padri Ivo one in terms of longevity and boringness. (BTW who won that battle, the Dotor - Padri one I mean ? yyy hhh yawn ... AS IF I CARE ...) Here is the latest installment of the Luis - Selma saga: Message: 3 Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:06:26 -0800 (PST) From: Luis Dias diasfl...@yahoo.comhttp://in.mc940.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=diasfl...@yahoo.com To: Goanet goa...@goanet.orghttp://in.mc940.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=goa...@goanet.org, se...@goanet.orghttp://in.mc940.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=se...@goanet.org, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.comhttp://in.mc940.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=elisabeth_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans Message-ID: 172308.38410...@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.comhttp://in.mc940.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=172308.38410...@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Dear Selma, I never ever wanted to engage in any sort of match as you so quaintly put it. This was triggered by your remark on a public forum, saying that my grandfather was considered to be a pro-Nazi in Goa. I felt compelled to respond. So please don't you dare lecture me on how best to preserve my grandfather's memory, shortly after you yourself have publicly hinted at possible blemishes in them. Pro-Nazi is a strong, loaded statement. You now mention minor surveillance (which you also did in the first post), but not the pro-Nazi comment. Perhaps you would care to explain how, in my justified defence of him, I am denying my grandfather his courage. A remark on an internet forum survives as a record ... (Blah Blah Blah ... ) If you wish any more assistance from my side in unearthing archived information, I shall be happy to help in whatever capacity I can but please do contact me in private. (Blah Blah Blah ... ) Best, Selma Dears - (here's me once again ...) Well what is interesting to me in this ridiculous exchange was a remark sent to me privately by a serious Bamon, one who is related to High Authorities Ecclesiastical - who suggested that the whole thing was a thinly veiled attempt by Selma - an alleged Bamon baiter - to belittle a Big Bamon Bhatkar who bugged Big Business (don't miss the alliteration ;-)). I don't know anything about this Bamon Business ;-) but I am a bit puzzled by Luis's embarrassment about his ancestor being allegedly pro -Nazi. Let us for a moment assume that Dr. Victor Dias WAS pro - Nazi. (mind you - I am not saying he WAS pro - Nazi - just asking you to ASSUME this) Well then, says me, so was - in a manner of speaking - one of the most Nationalist of Indian Nationalists - Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose. Would Luis have threatened to sue Selma if his ancestor was Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose and not Dr. Luis Dias? Puzzled Augusto -- Augusto Pinto 40, Novo Portugal, Moira, Bardez, Goa, India E pinto...@gmail.com or ypinto...@yahoo.co.in P 0832-2470336 M 9881126350
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Dear Mr Luis, My apology would have been a lot more sincere if your tone had not been so accusatory. Rest assured your family is not included in anything I am writing. I am sorry I mentioned the suspension. Yes, I agree that this was irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I'm sure you will agree that a great many public figures are discussed on Goanet all the time. It is not done with spite or malice. It is just done in the flow of the discussion. I do apologise for causing you and your family hurt but I fail to understand where this hurt stems from? Isn't it more important to know the truth about our historical past rather than hide behind hurt? I can surely email you the letters in my possession but can you tell me who instigated you all the way from the USA? This has caused me tremendous hurt. Best, selma --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Luis Dias diasfl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Luis Dias diasfl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Goan veterans To: Goanet goa...@goanet.org, se...@goanet.org, elisabeth_...@yahoo.com Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 12:15 AM Dear Selma,
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Dear Dr Dias, I do not want to engage in a public mudslinging match. That is not doing any good to either of our reputations. This is my last post on the matter so let me quickly make my points. 1. You burst onto Goanet and use words such as slander and libel. To slander is to lie, perpetuate a falsity with malice. I have done no such thing. This is unjust to my own reputation. I have stated a historical fact that your grandfather was under minor surveillance by the British counsel. You or anyone else who wishes to verify this fact, may go to the National Archives in Kew, Richmond, UK and do so. In good faith, I give you the file no. FO 371/31136. Everything I have stated is sourced from this file. Incidentally I was not doing any research on your family. I chanced upon it whilst researching something else more than a year ago. I just stated it on Goanet because it was relevant to the discussion we were having at the time. 2. Are you entirely sure that your grandfather would want you to defend him in such a manner? It seems to me that your grandfather was a courageous and daring man and fully invested in his own political convictions. Why are you now denying him his courage? How courageous this man was to go against commonly held views and pursue his own path in life, keep his own company. I wonder if he knew that he was being watched but even if he did, I doubt he would have cared little. Don't do this to your grandfather's memory. 3. I don't understand what significance my postal address has to you? Unless there is a thinly disguised threat in there somewhere. Surely you don't want to be seen threatening another Goan on a public forum into silence just because something is disagreeable to you. Recently we had the speaker of the assembly threatening a writer in Goa into silence. It seems that we Goans are losing more and more of our freedom every day. If you wish any more assistance from my side in unearthing archived information, I shall be happy to help in whatever capacity I can but please do contact me in private. Best, Selma --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Luis Dias diasfl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Luis Dias diasfl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Goan veterans To: Goanet goa...@goanet.org, se...@goanet.org, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 2:42 AM Dear Selma, I accept your apology, but again the rest of your post sounds far from apologetic.
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Dear Selma, I never ever wanted to engage in any sort of match as you so quaintly put it. This was triggered by your remark on a public forum, saying that my grandfather was considered to be a pro-Nazi in Goa. I felt compelled to respond. So please don't you dare lecture me on how best to preserve my grandfather's memory, shortly after you yourself have publicly hinted at possible blemishes in them. Pro-Nazi is a strong, loaded statement. You now mention minor surveillance (which you also did in the first post), but not the pro-Nazi comment. Perhaps you would care to explain how, in my justified defence of him, I am denying my grandfather his courage. A remark on an internet forum survives as a record, and in future if anyone does a search, every stray comment ever made in cyberspace shows up and often becomes the basis of historical record, and eventually can get accepted as fact. This is why I am reacting so strongly. You publicly offered to send me the relevant document (file no. FO 371/31136) by email, so I shall hold you to that. As regards the request for your postal address, it was triggered by the tone of your own email ...by now I am quite used to people popping up from history books and demanding apologies from me, so I too have taken legal advice in this matter. So what then is the problem with letting me have your address? I feel no fear of any legal action. To call a remark like pro-Nazi about my own grandfather as something disagreeable to me is a Himalayan understatement. Whether I burst onto Goanet or not is a subjective feeling that you hold. It certainly perpetuates a falsity with malice to make a statement like this without then furnishing the proof to substantiate this. I am glad that you now laud my grandfather's courage and daring. He was a great man, who Goa seems to have forgotten by the wayside. I have tried hard to ensure he gets the credit for Goa's first ever radio broadcast. (26 May 1946). I mentioned this to a Goanetter who actually has a blog on Radio in India, but it met with indifferent silence. I can quote chapter and verse on this accomplishment of his, and many others. Thank you very much for your kind offer of assistance in unearthing archived information. You can start making good on this offer by sending me the document that led to this whole exchange in the first place. ;-) Private, publicly, as I said is totally irrelevant. Our family has nothing to hide. You have still not answered my queries regarding the alleged suspension, nor where you got this little nugget of information. I still do look forward to your postal address. Please feel free to send it to me privately if you are not comfortable sending it on this forum. Best wishes, Dr Luis Dias Casa da Moeda Near Head Post Office Panaji-Goa INDIA 2224642, 9011051950. --- On Wed, 18/11/09, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Goan veterans To: Goanet goa...@goanet.org, se...@goanet.org, Luis Dias diasfl...@yahoo.com Date: Wednesday, 18 November, 2009, 11:39 Dear Dr Dias, I do not want to engage in a public mudslinging match. That is not doing any good to either of our reputations. This is my last post on the matter so let me quickly make my points. 1. You burst onto Goanet and use words such as slander and libel. To slander is to lie, perpetuate a falsity with malice. I have done no such thing. This is unjust to my own reputation. I have stated a historical fact that your grandfather was under minor surveillance by the British counsel. You or anyone else who wishes to verify this fact, may go to the National Archives in Kew, Richmond, UK and do so. In good faith, I give you the file no. FO 371/31136. Everything I have stated is sourced from this file. Incidentally I was not doing any research on your family. I chanced upon it whilst researching something else more than a year ago. I just stated it on Goanet because it was relevant to the discussion we were having at the time. 2. Are you entirely sure that your grandfather would want you to defend him in such a manner? It seems to me that your grandfather was a courageous and daring man and fully invested in his own political convictions. Why are you now denying him his courage? How courageous this man was to go against commonly held views and pursue his own path in life, keep his own company. I wonder if he knew that he was being watched but even if he did, I doubt he would have cared little. Don't do this to your grandfather's memory. 3. I don't understand what significance my postal address has to you? Unless there is a thinly disguised threat in there somewhere. Surely you don't want to be seen threatening another Goan on a public forum into silence just because something is disagreeable to you. Recently we had the speaker of the assembly threatening a writer in Goa into silence. It seems that we Goans are
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Dear Dr Luis, I will certainly keep to my word and send you the documents you have requested. I will send you scanned copies via email. Just give me a few days to get to it and do remind me if I forget. Best, selma --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Luis Dias diasfl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Luis Dias diasfl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Goan veterans To: Goanet goa...@goanet.org, se...@goanet.org, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 6:06 AM Dear Selma,
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
This message is directed at Selma Carvalho. This email thread was brought to my notice this morning from the USA. In the message attached below Selma Carvalho says that she can confirm that the Goan who was considered pro-Nazi was Dr Victor Dias, who just happens to be my grandfather. I would like to know how in the course of her research she came to this conclusion. Such a claim, on a public forum, is slander, it is calumny. I find it surprising that she made no attempt to contact any family member, to get a comprehensive perspective. It hurts especially as this year happens to be Dr Victor Manuel Dias' 60th death anniversary. We had a festival in his home Casa da Moeda (which incidentally once was the Goa Mint, and celebrates 175 years this year), during the course of which we commemorated both milestones by the release of a First Day Commemorative cover. I would refer her to Aleixo Manuel da Costa's book 'Dicionario da Literatura Goesa' Vol. I pg 350 if she wishes to know who Dr Victor Manuel Dias really was. She can also refer to http://victormanueldias.wordpress.com/, where I am in the process of cataloguing his life history, his achievements. I would also like to know what Selma means when she says she will not say under what circumstances Dr Dias was allegedly suspended from a Margao Hostipal (sic). Which Dr Dias? And please quote sources. Our family has nothing to hide. In the absence of objective proof, she cannot make such a libellous remark. If she has such objective proof, she should furnish it. Best wishes, Dr Luis Dias Casa da Moeda Near Head Post Office Panaji-Goa 403001 INDIA 2224642, 9011051950. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
--- On Tue, 11/17/09, Luis Dias diasfl...@yahoo.com wrote: In the absence of objective proof, she cannot make such a libellous remark. If she has such objective proof, she should furnish it. Best wishes, Dr Luis Dias - Dear Dr Luis, I'm sorry to have offended your sensibilities but by now I am quite used to people popping up from history books and demanding apologies from me, so I too have taken legal advice in this matter. Firstly I have not called anyone Nazi or anti-Nazi. I have said he was considered pro-Nazi by the British. If you wish to confirm this for yourself you may check the National Archives at Kew, Richmond, UK. Incidentally I have a copy of the letter in my own stack of documents and I will be more than happy to email it you in private. I have no intention of hurting anyone, living or passed away in Goa. I am merely reporting facts as they are recorded in dusty museums and archives. Best, selma
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Ms. Carvalho: Have you found any similar archival material which (conclusively ! ) found certain members of the the British Royal Family to be Nazi sympathizers? For example, it has long, and often been reported that the late Duke of Windsor was one. Or is the National Archives selective in its archiving of material and documents? If so, how can a fair accounting of historical events be possible? Thanks. I. Nunes --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans To: estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list goanet@lists.goanet.org Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 11:48 AM --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Luis Dias diasfl...@yahoo.com wrote: In the absence of objective proof, she cannot make such a libellous remark. If she has such objective proof, she should furnish it. Best wishes, Dr Luis Dias - Dear Dr Luis, I'm sorry to have offended your sensibilities but by now I am quite used to people popping up from history books and demanding apologies from me, so I too have taken legal advice in this matter. Firstly I have not called anyone Nazi or anti-Nazi. I have said he was considered pro-Nazi by the British. If you wish to confirm this for yourself you may check the National Archives at Kew, Richmond, UK. Incidentally I have a copy of the letter in my own stack of documents and I will be more than happy to email it you in private. I have no intention of hurting anyone, living or passed away in Goa. I am merely reporting facts as they are recorded in dusty museums and archives. Best, selma
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Dear Selma, Thank you for your public response. You have ignored the bulk of my post, for reasons best known to you, and responded, and inadequately at that, to the last few lines of it: 1. You have not mentioned why you didn't consult any family member of Dr Victor Manuel Dias. Our family is fairly well-known here, so it shouldn't have been a difficult task. Your colleagues on Goanet could have pointed you in our direction. Wouldn't this have been a more logical, more scholarly approach? Rather than referring to just one document in a dusty museum in Kew? If you have contacted the extended family of Dr Victor Dias, who are they? 2. You haven't responded to your veiled hint on how you will not say anything about the alleged suspension of Dr Dias (Victor? Antonio? you do not clarify) at a Margao hostipal (sic). Why not? As I said before, our family has nothing to hide. If it is Dr Antonio Dias that is being referred to, was it really necessary to bring up his alleged suspension in this thread? This thread was about Goan veterans. In any case, I would like you to furnish your source for this as well. As a family member, I wish to know this, before it is trotted out as fact in this book you are supposedly writing. 3. While you make a token apology at the start, the rest of your response doesn't sound apologetic at all. I have not popped up from history books. There was really no need for sarcasm here. I am flesh and blood, very much in this world, and knocked sideways by this unnecessary bolt from the blue. Does the fact that you have legal advice somehow make this any better? What about the hurt caused not only to me, but to the rest of my family, and other families like me, when such half-baked research is paraded publicly? 4. In your original post, you merely said ...was considered pro-Nazi in Goa. The British considered anyone who ran counter to their interests as an enemy agent. This is hardly the same thing as being pro-Nazi. 5. I would like to see this document, which you have so kindly offered to furnish, in response to my post. Whether you do this privately or publicly is irrelevant. As I said before, our family has nothing to hide. 6. Since you have alluded so forthrightly to your legal advice, perhaps you could mention your postal address and other contact details too. I have mentioned mine. I look forward to your response. Best wishes, Luis Dr Luis Dias Casa da Moeda Near Head Post Office Panaji-Goa 403001 INDIA 2224642 9011051950 Message: 5 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:55:07 -0800 (PST) From: Luis Dias diasfl...@yahoo.com To: goa...@goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans Message-ID: 947649.93107...@web32107.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 This message is directed at Selma Carvalho. This email thread was brought to my notice this morning from the USA. ? In the message attached below Selma Carvalho says that she can confirm that the Goan who was considered pro-Nazi was Dr Victor Dias, who just happens to be my grandfather. ? I would like to know how in the course of her research she came to this conclusion. ? Such a claim, on a public forum, is slander, it is calumny. ? I find it surprising that she made no attempt to contact any family member, to get a comprehensive perspective. ? It hurts especially as this year happens to be Dr Victor Manuel Dias' 60th death anniversary. We had a festival in his home Casa da Moeda (which incidentally once was the Goa Mint, and celebrates 175 years this year), during the course of which we commemorated both milestones by the release of a First Day Commemorative cover. ? I would refer her to Aleixo Manuel da Costa's book 'Dicionario da Literatura Goesa' Vol. I pg 350 if she wishes to know who Dr Victor Manuel Dias really was. She can also refer to http://victormanueldias.wordpress.com/, where I am in the process of cataloguing his life history, his achievements. ? I would also like to know what Selma means when she says she will not say under what circumstances Dr Dias was allegedly suspended from a Margao Hostipal (sic). Which Dr Dias? And please quote sources. Our family has nothing to hide. ? In the absence of objective proof, she cannot make such a libellous remark. If she has such objective proof, she should furnish it. ? Best wishes, ? Dr Luis Dias Casa da Moeda Near Head Post Office Panaji-Goa 403001 INDIA 2224642, 9011051950. -- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:48:58 -0800 (PST) From: Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com To: estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans Message-ID: 877553.35351...@web33003.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Luis Dias diasfl...@yahoo.com wrote: ? In the absence of objective proof, she
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Hi Gabriel, I completely agree with what U have produced. Those are the facts; I knew them even before the SBS telecast, after reading somewhere. What I have written is a simplfied version of the cause of the War becoming a World War, as opposed to Frederick's version. Hence, U have not disagreed with me but supplemented my reasons, for the war. Well done, I could not have said it better. Nascy Caldeira. --- On Mon, 16/11/09, Gabriel de Figueiredo gdefigueir...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Nascy, May I disagree with you? In brief, WWII was a result of stiff payments France insisted Germany make, in reparation for the thousands of widows and orphans left behind, and incredibly, for the heads of cattle and horses lost in the Great War (WWI). You'd understand what I'm saying if you had watched the recent documentary on the Treaty of Versailles broadcast by SBS. This, remapping the world divisions and with the loss of the colonies, left behind a very chastened Germany, which then gave rise to Hitler and Nazism, which resulted in WWII in Europe (the Asian side was for a different reason). Of course, a scapegoat was needed to whip up the uprising and to ensure loyalty, hence the hatred against the Jews, incidentally many of whom had fought for the Kaiser in the earlier war. It is for reasons to prevent resentments giving rise to fresh wars that no payments for reparations were demanded of Germany and Japan after WWII; instead these two nations were assisted by the world to recuperate and rebuild, with some provisions banning the two nations from holding armed forces for a period. Gabriel. __ Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7. Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
[Goanet] Goan Veterans
This is being re-sent as only one line was reproduced today (11/16) Goan Veterans Sun, November 15, 2009 11:07:11 AM From: Jean Marcos Catao cata...@yahoo.com View Contact To: estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list goanet@lists.goanet.org From: MARCOS GOMES CATAO cataojm @yahoo,com Just two clarifications/corrections on two itmes mentioned on above subject Nasci Caldeira said the graves listed by the War Graves Commission could not be of Portuguese or Brazilians because Portugal wasneutral and Brazil did not join the war. The latter is not totally correct. Brazil did join the war in favour of the Allies, notwithstanding sympathy for the German in the Presidency. Infact, the Brazilian brigade took part in the Montecassino engagement, which is commemorated every year in the country. In fact, the colourful Brazilian unforms even drew jocular (sardonic?) comments from Winston churchill. Someone else mentioned Goans and Brazilians have natural ties because both were Portuguese colonies and football was introduced by them in both the countries. This is not quite accurate. Football (soccer) was not introduced in Brazil by the Portuguese but by the British. The British played a big role in the development of the railway in Brazil and so, the British expariate engineers and administrators started playing the game there and finally got the locals interested. If I remember right they were instrumental in starting the SPFC (Sao Paulo Football Clube) and later SFC( Santos Football Club) both of which still remain premier teams in the Senior League, SPFC having thrice won the World Club Championship played every year in Tokyo. If I am not too mistaken, some years back SPFC paid a visit to Bombay and defeated an India XI by 6x1
[Goanet] Goan Veterans
From: MARCOS GOMES CATAO cataojm @yahoo,com Just two clarifications/corrections on two itmes mentioned on above subject Nasci Caldeira said the graves listed by the War Graves Commission could not be of Portuguese or Brazilians because Portugal wasneutral and Brazil did not join the war. The latter is not totally correct. Brazil did join the war in favour of the Allies, notwithstanding sympathy for the German in the Presidency. Infact, the Brazilian brigade took part in the Montecassino engagement, which is commemorated every year in the country. In fact, the colourful Brazilian unforms even drew jocular (sardonic?) comments from Winston churchill. Someone else mentioned Goans and Brazilians have natural ties because both were Portuguese colonies and football was introduced by them in both the countries. This is not quite accurate. Football (soccer) was not introduced in Brazil by the Portuguese but by the British. The British played a big role in the development of the railway in Brazil and so, the British expariate engineers and administrators started playing the game there and finally got the locals interested. If I remember right they were instrumental in starting the SPFC (Sao Paulo Football Clube) and later SFC( Santos Football Club) both of which still remain premier teams in the Senior League, SPFC having thrice won the World Club Championship played every year in Tokyo. If I am not too mistaken, some years back SPFC paid a visit to Bombay and defeated an India XI by 6x1
Re: [Goanet] Goan Veterans
And apparently was the origin to the saying para inglez ver, meaning, pretending to be seen to work by the British overseers... - Original Message From: Jean Marcos Catao cata...@yahoo.com To: estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Mon, 16 November, 2009 3:07:11 AM Subject: [Goanet] Goan Veterans From: MARCOS GOMES CATAO cataojm @yahoo,com ... The British played a big role in the development of the railway in Brazil ... __ Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7. Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Nascy, May I disagree with you? In brief, WWII was a result of stiff payments France insisted Germany make, in reparation for the thousands of widows and orphans left behind, and incredibly, for the heads of cattle and horses lost in the Great War (WWI). You'd understand what I'm saying if you had watched the recent documentary on the Treaty of Versailles broadcast by SBS. This, remapping the world divisions and with the loss of the colonies, left behind a very chastened Germany, which then gave rise to Hitler and Nazism, which resulted in WWII in Europe (the Asian side was for a different reason). Of course, a scapegoat was needed to whip up the uprising and to ensure loyalty, hence the hatred against the Jews, incidentally many of whom had fought for the Kaiser in the earlier war. It is for reasons to prevent resentments giving rise to fresh wars that no payments for reparations were demanded of Germany and Japan after WWII; instead these two nations were assisted by the world to recuperate and rebuild, with some provisions banning the two nations from holding armed forces for a period. Gabriel. - Original Message From: Nascy Caldeira nascy...@yahoo.com.au To: estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Sun, 15 November, 2009 12:55:49 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans The second World war was an outcome of German actions of invading and conquering the nations around them; to form an United Europe under his 'Hitler Nazi' command. Hitler used some resentment against Jews in Germany to 'come to power' by unleashing atrocities against them, to win popular support and thus win against the Commies who were quite a formidable political power in Germany at the time;the SS cadres did exactly that! __ Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail. Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
The name of the book is O Espião Alemão em Goa - Operação Long Shanks by José António Barreiros available from http://www.bibliofeira.com/livro/551618778 for EU$ 12.00. Features a photograph of Dr. Froilano de Mello, who attended the injured. My own copy has been misplaced. I hope I can track it down, more for reasons that it was purchased for me by Jorge Abreu-Noronha, years ago. Gabriel. - Original Message From: J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com To: goa...@goanet.org Sent: Sun, 15 November, 2009 1:51:34 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans Alfredo's article makes reference to the book Ehrenfels by Jose Antonio Barreiros, Selma would do well by trying to get hold of this book. Paulo Colaco-Dias (even though, I know he is busy with academics + work) might be able to guide Selma, IF the book is not locatable. __ Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7. Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Let me be the arbitrator in this instance :-)) Amitav Ghosh is a historical novel known for his intensive research when he writes a novel. Ofcourse it is still fiction but only the characters are fictional set against a fairly accurate historical background, very similar to say the English writer Catherine Cookson. The much celebrated author now lives in Goa and is known to Augusto. I have read the Glass Palace, a magnificent novel, which in some part traces how divergent loyalties emerged in SE Asia from Burma to India, Chandra Bose get a nod, and an examination of the machinations of Empire. I didn't want to write this earlier, but there were in Goa, according to British records some Goans not unsypathetic to Chandra Bose. I don't want to say who and start another riot here. We now know from our own Goanet investigations :-)) that Goan loyalties depended largely on which colony they were occupying at the time. In an extract that I released earlier this year, there was a passage where East African Goans decide to give up their Portuguese passports and take up British citizenship to show their loyalty to Colonial Britian. Perhaps in a way this does not reflect well on Goans, makes our loyalties seem mercenary but then this is a assessment in hindsight and we don't know what immediate circumstances presented themselves in those years. I know that a lot of them returned to Goa during the War. So in a way, Frederick's point is valid that it wasn't entirely our war but I still think that a memorial to mark the loss of life is something we Goans should pursue. best, selma --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: What should I do if someone told me to read the Da Vinci Code novel to find out about the nuances that justify that the claims of a world-wide conspiracy are not far-fetched? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Dear FN and Selma, Surprised no Goanetter threw more light on Selma's initial comments on this thread. The German frigates that sought shelter at Mormugao -- then part of neutral Portugal -- for espionage purposes on the British sea-lane to India, had powerful radio transmitters. Their messages back to Berlin were intercepted and decoded by British intelligence in Bombay. The story of how retired British army personnel -- some with dentures and even with an artificial eye -- were sent in a rusting barge all the way from Calcutta, to handle the German frigates docked at Mormugao, is the subject of the book titled The Boarding Party. The book was converted into a film called the Sea Wolves -- partly filmed in Goa -- less than 30 years ago. In those cloak-and-dagger days on the hillslopes of Altinho-Panjim, the German Consul's wife kept local Portuguese intelligence men happy -- tossing Crocodile condoms from the veranda of her residence at Altinho ... until a Bombay-based intelligence party kidnapped key people from Panjim to British India ... and the Boarding Party that had sailed all the way from Calcutta mined the German frigates at Mormugao, while the German sailors were merrily partying in Panjim on that Carnaval night. All this is rather well documented. For finer details, Selma must get in touch with Mario Cabral e Sa ... he was around when this happened (I was not yet born then) and was the local organizer for the filming party of Sea Wolves. Frederick, remember Dr. Juliao Menezes from Assolna also studied medicine in Germany. He was in the company of Dr. Ram Manohar Lohia and both were friends there. When the two returned to India, Juliao practiced med. from a building opp. St. Xavier's College at Dhobitalao-Mumbai, while Lohia plunged headlong into the freedom movement. In fact, in 1946, when Lohia, weak in health, was released from jail by British authorities in India, Juliao invited him to recuperate at his mansion in Assolna. That resulted in June 18, 1946 at Margao -- at the place now known as Lohia Maidan in downtown Margao. Regards, v - Original Message - From: Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans Interestingly, there were Goans studying ophthalmology and other sciences (mainly) in the Berlin of the 1920s! I think Dr Gama Pinto is one such example.
[Goanet] Goan veterans
Frederick makes a valid point. It was the expansionism of Germany which was the main cause of WWII. Germany under Hitler invaded Poland, Austria, Denmark,Norway, Netherlands, Belgium,part of France,eastern Europe and were on the borders of Russia. Japan joined hands with Germany and invaded China, Korea and Burma. Italy under Mussolini invaded Ethiopia, France, parts of Africa. The holocaust was a separate issue and was made a pretext by Hitler to mobilise the german people against an imaginary enemy. Regards, Marshall
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Val, absolutely fascinating stuff. I've maintained your email in full so those who missed it can read it. Another Goanetter sent me some of this riverting information in private email and I'm getting his permission to share that email with Goanet. I can confirm from my own research the British counsel, who incidentally lived a few minutes walk from the German Counsel's house, also had in his pockets a few Goan spies who kept him informed. It would indeed be interesting to know who these Goan spies were for the British. Minor stuff though. Nothing earth shattering. Since we are naming names, (I went back to my notes and checked this) I can confirm the Goan who was considered pro-Nazi in Goa and kept under minor surveillance by the British was a doctor Victor Dias brother of Anton Dias. He might have been from your neck of the woods Val, because allegedly he was suspended from the Margao hostipal (for another reason altogether which I will not say). Now, now, Val, don't make me share any more. You have to buy the:-)) How old is Mario Cabral to have been around during this time? Best, selma --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Valmiki Faleiro valmi...@gmail.com wrote: From: Valmiki Faleiro valmi...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 8:13 AM Dear FN and Selma, Surprised no Goanetter threw more light on Selma's initial comments on this thread. The German frigates that sought shelter at Mormugao -- then part of neutral Portugal -- for espionage purposes on the British sea-lane to India, had powerful radio transmitters. Their messages back to Berlin were intercepted and decoded by British intelligence in Bombay. The story of how retired British army personnel -- some with dentures and even with an artificial eye -- were sent in a rusting barge all the way from Calcutta, to handle the German frigates docked at Mormugao, is the subject of the book titled The Boarding Party. The book was converted into a film called the Sea Wolves -- partly filmed in Goa -- less than 30 years ago. In those cloak-and-dagger days on the hillslopes of Altinho-Panjim, the German Consul's wife kept local Portuguese intelligence men happy -- tossing Crocodile condoms from the veranda of her residence at Altinho ... until a Bombay-based intelligence party kidnapped key people from Panjim to British India ... and the Boarding Party that had sailed all the way from Calcutta mined the German frigates at Mormugao, while the German sailors were merrily partying in Panjim on that Carnaval night. All this is rather well documented. For finer details, Selma must get in touch with Mario Cabral e Sa ... he was around when this happened (I was not yet born then) and was the local organizer for the filming party of Sea Wolves. Frederick, remember Dr. Juliao Menezes from Assolna also studied medicine in Germany. He was in the company of Dr. Ram Manohar Lohia and both were friends there. When the two returned to India, Juliao practiced med. from a building opp. St. Xavier's College at Dhobitalao-Mumbai, while Lohia plunged headlong into the freedom movement. In fact, in 1946, when Lohia, weak in health, was released from jail by British authorities in India, Juliao invited him to recuperate at his mansion in Assolna. That resulted in June 18, 1946 at Margao -- at the place now known as Lohia Maidan in downtown Margao. Regards, v - Original Message - From: Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans Interestingly, there were Goans studying ophthalmology and other sciences (mainly) in the Berlin of the 1920s! I think Dr Gama Pinto is one such example.
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Valmiki Faleiro valmi...@gmail.com wrote: Surprised no Goanetter threw more light on Selma's initial comments on this thread. the book titled The Boarding Party. The book was converted into a film called the Sea Wolves -- partly filmed in Goa -- less than 30 years ago. All this is rather well documented. For finer details, Selma must get in touch with Mario Cabral e Sa ... he was around when this happened (I was not yet born then) and was the local organizer for the filming party of Sea Wolves. -- My dear Valmiki, This topic was discussed several years ago on The Goan Forum (TGF). A snippet has been stored at the following URL http://www.colaco.net/1/AdmSeaWolves.htm A writer from Birmingham (UK) has also posted this article on the Vasco-forum http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VascokarsUnited/message/4006 I had personally requested Alfredo de Mello (and others) to write a few articles about the Goa they experienced - just to get the balance in the face of the semi-conjured stuff the some nuevo writers have been prone to write. Alfredo's article makes reference to the book Ehrenfels by Jose Antonio Barreiros, Selma would do well by trying to get hold of this book. Paulo Colaco-Dias (even though, I know he is busy with academics + work) might be able to guide Selma, IF the book is not locatable. Re: Frederick, remember Dr Juilião Menezes from Assolna also studied medicine in Germany. For what it is worth here are two articles [1] By the late Lino Leitãohttp://www.colaco.net/1/leitaoDrJuliao.htm [2] By Ben Antao http://www.colaco.net/1/BenJuliaoMenezes.htm I can safely say that Goa does not make Journalists like Ben Antao these days. good wishes to you and much love to Daisy from out here. jc
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Santosh! Could not be more perfectly said, or argued. I feel that sometimes that FN just lets go of the 'unresolved controversies' in his mind to provoke people and get their perspective on matters that count. The second World war was an outcome of German actions of invading and conquering the nations around them; to form an United Europe under his 'Hitler Nazi' command. Hitler used some resentment against Jews in Germany to 'come to power' by unleashing atrocities against them, to win popular support and thus win against the Commies who were quite a formidable political power in Germany at the time;the SS cadres did exactly that! (Our Indian counterparts, the RSS and the several BJP and like parties are emulating the same, to foist Swastika Fascism on Indians.) He was thus able to foist his Nazi Party dictatorship over others and other countries; In so doing Hitler unleashed the Holocaust which may not have been his primary and only goal. He had to get 'complete power' in his Deutsce Motherland First, and he got it. Initial war successes emboldened the Nazis to go all out for the whole of Europe; and in so doing brought all the rest of the world against them. The Nazis'/Hitler's goals were certainly much different from the Colonial grabs and conquests of the times. Nazis and Hitler were fighting Europen neighbors and not far off weak and backward countries, as such. So, I must say that FN's pereceptions on the Second World War are a bit tipsy?? Come on Frederick, U have better things to do and say. Nascy Caldeira. --- On Sat, 14/11/09, Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: It is quite unusual for someone to claim that a work of fiction gives an accurate version of history. I have also never heard the charge of black and white being used against those who believe that the second world war was a just fight against Nazism. I have read a fair bit on the rise of Nazism, the history of the second world war, and the medical consequences of the Nazi ideology. I have spent a whole day in the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC and visited historical sites where the Nazi atrocities, as well as the fight against Nazis took place in Eastern Europe. It is hard for me to imagine what sort of nuances about colonialism in a novel could convince someone that the fight against Nazism in scare quotes was mere rhetoric. It would be educational if Noronha or Augusto could describe in brief their version of history, and how they know that the claims made in a fictional novel are right. What should I do if someone told me to read the Da Vinci Code novel to find out about the nuances that justify that the claims of a world-wide conspiracy are not far-fetched? Santosh __ Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7. Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
[Goanet] Goan veterans
May be most Goans who died during WW2 were tarvotis who served in British cargo ships which carried war supplies from Bombay to Aden on its way via Red Sea to Europe. In other words most casualties could have occurred in the Arabian Sea. According to tales told by good old tarvotis the nemesis of the British shipping was a German submarine called Emden which sank most of the British ships. The submarine was operating in the Arabian sea and it is possible it could have come to Mormugao harbour to replenish its supplies. There were also 2 or 3 German cargo ships which had taken refuge in the Mormugao harbour during the WW2. These ships had some sort of communication equipment withwhich they kept Emden well supplied with information of British leaving Bombay harbour. A British commando force came all the way from Calcuta and succeeded in smashing this equipment on board of German ships and even before the mighty Portuguese Governor could come to know about it , they were already out of Goa's territorial waters. There were some casualties and if there were any Goans on board of these ships , some of them could have died for the greater glory of Herr Hitler's Thousand Years Reich.
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
2009/11/14 Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com I can confirm from my own research the British counsel, who incidentally lived a few minutes walk from the German Counsel's house, Now, now, Val, don't make me share any more. You HAVE to buy the... === Dear Selma, When you do get close to publishing your 'book', please do ensure that your book states about the British CONSUL, who incidentally lived a few minutes walk from the German CONSUL's house If you have the word Counsel, instead - do expect a law suit from the BMJ or the Bundesministerium der Justiz (German ministry of Justice) and (IF I have purchased the book ...like you expect of my good friend, Valmiki) - I will certainly demand a refund. Sincerely jc
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote: I do not believe World War II was our war, despite all the rhetoric about the fight against Nazism and what not. It still seems to me to be a ruthless scramble for colonies between a Britain that had an unfair share at that time and a Germany that felt badly left out (despite its technological and scientific prowess). And a violent struggle for economic clout in a changing world. -- FN Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 12:09:38 -0800 (PST) From: Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com The majority of the Goans were very pro-Allied forces and infact one Goan had lit up his house with lights and everytime there was a Allied victory he would flash his lights all night long. All this is my own research, so you're not likely to be able to google it I'm afraid. :-)) Mario asks: Hey, Selma, What say you about Red Fred's claim that the fight against Nazism and what not is all empty rhetoric. Apparently the real reason for WW-II was a mad scramble by your greedy Brits for additional colonies and the poor Nazis felt badly left out - poor babies - in a changing world. So, guess what? They decided to go on a violent rampage against the rest of Europe so that they could feel like part of the club and get some economic clout and colonies of their own. And, just BTW, decided to exterminate as many Jews as they could while they were at it, just for the heck of it. Santosh wrote: This is an amazing revision of history. The fight against Nazism in scare quotes was only rhetoric? Does Noronha deny the holocaust as well? Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 07:17:13 +0530 From: augusto pinto pinto...@gmail.com I think that what FN is saying is not so far fetched unless one wishes to view the world in black and white terms as Santosh wishes to do. I'd recommend Amitav Ghosh's novel 'The Glass Palace' for a very nuanced reading of the issues involved and that includes the nature of colonialism; the motivations underlying the Second World War; the responses of different Indian to this war; and the nature of war itself. Mario responds: Am I reading this right? Is Augusto really saying that Fred's attempt to turn the reasons for WW-II upside down are not far fetched? I'd like to know how the Nazi breakout across Europe after signing a peace treaty with the gullible Neville Chamberlain, the Nazi Axis of Evil with Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan, and the genocide against the Jews, can be nuanced by any rational person, to impugn the motivations of the Allies. Can anyone even imagine what the world would have been like had the Allies not prevailed? Santosh is being kind when he says this brazen attempt to revise history is amazing. The real adjective would not make it past the moderators. Sufficeth to say it boggles the mind to see some folks trying to re-write history to make the positively evil Nazis, Fascists and Imperialists look less evil by twisting what actually happened.
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
--- On Sat, 11/14/09, J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com wrote: My dear Valmiki, Selma would do well by trying to get hold of this book. Paulo Colaco-Dias (even though, I know he is busy with academics + work) might be able to guide Selma, IF the book is not locatable. Thank you Doc but my writing does not actually deal with this story. I leave such cinematic intrique for the movie buffs :-). Paulo and I have been in touch though regarding another matter and he has been most helpful. As you know Paulo hails from one of Goa's most illustrious families. Best, Selma
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Frederick makes a valid point. This is incredible! Does it require a special alliance of minds or an identification with a certain shared ideology to believe what Frederick Noronha claimed and what has been written in the rest of the post appended below have any resemblance to each other? I am quite confident that most people would have no problem in recognizing that Frederick's point was completely different, even if you grant that for some strange reason Marshall believes that Nazism had nothing to do with the expansionism of Germany. Here are the points that Noronha made: 1. That the standard explanation for Britain and its allies to enter the second world war as a fight against Nazism and what not, is not a historical fact, but merely rhetoric. 2. That the real explanation according to Noronha seemed to be a ruthless scramble for colonies between a Britain that had an unfair share at that time and a Germany that felt badly left out (despite its technological and scientific prowess). And a violent struggle for economic clout in a changing world In other words, Noronha is implying that Britain and the other allied countries were almost as responsible for the violence as Germany, and that the war was simply a competition between some ruthless countries for colonial domination of the world. This is clearly a different version of history than can be found in all the textbooks. Augusto seems to agree with this revised version because of some nuances found in a novel relating to the diverse views held in India regarding Hitler and the Nazis, including the affinity towards them by people like Subhash Chandra Bose. This is really confusing to me because all this while I thought Noronha, Augusto and Marshall made it a point to mention that one of the reasons RSS was evil was because of its support of Hitler and Nazism. I would really like to know when things become black and white, and when they are nuanced for them. Cheers, Santosh Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: It was the expansionism of Germany which was the main cause of WWII. Germany under Hitler invaded Poland, Austria, Denmark,Norway, Netherlands, Belgium,part of France,eastern Europe and were on the borders of Russia. Japan joined hands with Germany and invaded China, Korea and Burma. Italy under Mussolini invaded Ethiopia, France, parts of Africa. The holocaust was a separate issue and was made a pretext by Hitler to mobilise the german people against an imaginary enemy. Regards, Marshall
[Goanet] Goan veterans
Dear FN, A very good question.I too am now wondering if any Goans did fight for the Axis powers. Would someone enlighten us. Regards, Mike
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
They say, whether elphants fight or make love, the grass beneath gets trampled. Goans were like the grass, I think, trying to make the best deal of whichever side of a global conflict (they probably didn't understand) they got caught on. In Yvonne Vaz-Ezdani's book, most of the contributors actually returned from Burma to British India or Portuguese Goa after the Japanese invasion of that country in 1941-2. But a handful actually stayed on, and write about their experiences and building bridges with the Japanese! Interestingly, there were Goans studying ophthalmology and other sciences (mainly) in the Berlin of the 1920s! I think Dr Gama Pinto is one such example. I do not believe World War II was our war, despite all the rhetoric about the fight against Nazism and what not. It still seems to me to be a ruthless scramble for colonies between a Britain that had an unfair share at that time and a Germany that felt badly left out (despite its technological and scientific prowess). And a violent struggle for economic clout in a changing world. -- FN 2009/11/12 Michael Ali mikeal...@aol.com: Dear FN, A very good question.I too am now wondering if any Goans did fight for the Axis powers. Would someone enlighten us. -- Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490 Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote: I do not believe World War II was our war, despite all the rhetoric about the fight against Nazism and what not. It still seems to me to be a ruthless scramble for colonies between a Britain that had an unfair share at that time and a Germany that felt badly left out (despite its technological and scientific prowess). And a violent struggle for economic clout in a changing world. -- FN This is an amazing revision of history. The fight against Nazism in scare quotes was only rhetoric? Does Noronha deny the holocaust as well? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
--- On Thu, 11/12/09, Michael Ali mikeal...@aol.com wrote: A very good question.I too am now wondering if any Goans did fight for the Axis powers. Would someone enlighten us. Regards, Mike - Hi Mike, I'm not sure if any Goan served on the Axis side, this would depend I think on Goan migration to Axis countries. I do know that during the course of the War, the then British Counsel stationed in Goa, kept close watch on a one particular Goan who kept close company with the Germany counsel also stationed in Goa. Now those two might have just been friends and nothing more to it other than friendship. There were a few German sailors or were they Italian, I can't remember exactly, who took refuge in Goa after their ships had been torpedoed. The majority of the Goans were very pro-Allied forces and infact one Goan had lit up his house with lights and everytime there was a Allied victory he would flash his lights all night long. All this is my own research, so you're not likely to be able to google it I'm afraid. :-)) Take care, selma
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
Ok, Folks. My fore-fathers moved to what is now Tanzania before the USA celebrated its 100th birthday. Tanganyika was then ruled by the Germans. When a German gentleman came to your business and requested you to 'support' the German war effort, the answer you gave was, Yes, Sir, in any way you want. There is a message somewhere in my archives of the Goan Institute, Dar-es-salaam sending birthday wishes to the Kaiser. There are, to say the least, some very interesting signatories on that message. Mervyn1650Lobo Those of you with some knowledge of WWI in E. Africa might remember the Konigsberg episode. British airplanes were assembled on Mafia Island and these searched for the German ship hiding in the Rufiji. Even in the late 1970's, there were Goan decendants living in Mafia and on the mainland opposite. --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Michael Ali mikeal...@aol.com wrote: A very good question.I too am now wondering if any Goans did fight for the Axis powers. Would someone enlighten us. Regards, Mike - Hi Mike, I'm not sure if any Goan served on the Axis side, this would depend I think on Goan migration to Axis countries. I do know that during the course of the War, the then British Counsel stationed in Goa, kept close watch on a one particular Goan who kept close company with the Germany counsel also stationed in Goa. Now those two might have just been friends and nothing more to it other than friendship. There were a few German sailors or were they Italian, I can't remember exactly, who took refuge in Goa after their ships had been torpedoed. The majority of the Goans were very pro-Allied forces and infact one Goan had lit up his house with lights and everytime there was a Allied victory he would flash his lights all night long. All this is my own research, so you're not likely to be able to google it I'm afraid. :-)) Take care, selma __ The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Frederick Noronha fredericknoro...@gmail.comhttp://in.mc940.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote: I do not believe World War II was our war, despite all the rhetoric about the fight against Nazism and what not. It still seems to me to be a ruthless scramble for colonies between a Britain that had an unfair share at that time and a Germany that felt badly left out (despite its technological and scientific prowess). And a violent struggle for economic clout in a changing world. -- FN To which Santosh Helekar commented: This is an amazing revision of history. The fight against Nazism in scare quotes was only rhetoric? Does Noronha deny the holocaust as well? I think that what FN is saying is not so far fetched unless one wishes to view the world in black and white terms as Santosh wishes to do. I'd recommend Amitav Ghosh's novel 'The Glass Palace' for a very nuanced reading of the issues involved and that includes the nature of colonialism; the motivations underlying the Second World War; the responses of different Indian to this war; and the nature of war itself. Augusto -- Augusto Pinto 40, Novo Portugal, Moira, Bardez, Goa, India E pinto...@gmail.com or ypinto...@yahoo.co.in P 0832-2470336 M 9881126350
Re: [Goanet] Goan veterans
--- On Fri, 11/13/09, augusto pinto pinto...@gmail.com wrote: I think that what FN is saying is not so far fetched unless one wishes to view the world in black and white terms as Santosh wishes to do. I'd recommend Amitav Ghosh's novel 'The Glass Palace' for a very nuanced reading of the issues involved and that includes the nature of colonialism; the motivations underlying the Second World War; the responses of different Indian to this war; and the nature of war itself. It is quite unusual for someone to claim that a work of fiction gives an accurate version of history. I have also never heard the charge of black and white being used against those who believe that the second world war was a just fight against Nazism. I have read a fair bit on the rise of Nazism, the history of the second world war, and the medical consequences of the Nazi ideology. I have spent a whole day in the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC and visited historical sites where the Nazi atrocities, as well as the fight against Nazis took place in Eastern Europe. It is hard for me to imagine what sort of nuances about colonialism in a novel could convince someone that the fight against Nazism in scare quotes was mere rhetoric. It would be educational if Noronha or Augusto could describe in brief their version of history, and how they know that the claims made in a fictional novel are right. What should I do if someone told me to read the Da Vinci Code novel to find out about the nuances that justify that the claims of a world-wide conspiracy are not far-fetched? Cheers, Santosh
