Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
--- On Thu, 7/16/09, eric pinto ericpin...@yahoo.com wrote: I hope I offfered solace to both sides. Eric provided solace only to one side. Indeed, he extended my position further by suggesting that what we are dealing with in respect of all the sundry alternative nostrums is entirely mental. But nothing could have been a better illustration of my contention that this business is motivated purely by parochial religious and other faith-based beliefs, than the incredible post appended below. Wacky medieval notions such as the influence of the moon and the Evil One are uncritically accepted, while scholarly articles by an eminent modern scientist such as Edzard Ernst are not accepted as scientific - in both cases without being able to provide any rational argument, let alone evidence. Cheers, Santosh --- On Thu, 7/16/09, isouza icso...@sancharnet.in wrote: Regarding the influence of moon and stars, I know that patients can be influenced by phases of moon or cloudy weather (for example, asthmatic and insane). It is taken into account in homeopathic medicine. But stars/spirits cannot determine our fate. God is our Father, as St.Paul of Tarsus clearly taught the Colossians (Col 1:15-20). I cannot accept sorcery, divination, witchcraft, black magic, voodoo (important for people from Haiti). These are against Religion. But we do accept exorcism, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: (no.1673 )When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing. In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called a major exorcism, can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
--- On Thu, 7/16/09, isouza icso...@sancharnet.in wrote: But we do accept exorcism, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: (no.1673 )When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. --- It is unfortunate that Fr Ivo a man of letters and reading has condoned the practice of exorcism. Some years ago, I attended a retreat at Potta, that center of miracles and was horrified to see a Mass of Exorcism being conducted. The congregation was told that they were not to look at each other nor were they to assist anyone who may seem to require their assistance. There were in the congregation a gaggle of teenage girls. My mother and I had seen them during the days prior, a noticeable bunch in the way, young girls are. Two or three from this group went into convulsions during the mass. People, as directed ignored them thinking they were being exorcised. My mother being a nurse rushed to their help. To me it is criminal to suggest possession by an Evil One. Most of these extreme cases suffer from deep psychological disorders that require clinical treatment. Others are the power of simple auto-suggestion. If indeed, in this day and age we believe in possession, we must ask ourselves some honest questions. Why would the Evil One inhabit puny human bodies which are in no position to help him in his plan of world-wide dominion. Secondly, if the Evil one inhabits bodies then the converse must also be true and a battalion of angels can possess bodies as well. This never seems to happen. This medieval idea of exorcisms and witch-hunts has gained some traction in our time because it has been popularized by Hollywood in movies such as the Exorcist. Understandably Hollywood has a buck to make by feeding into our most primal fears but for our clergy to sell this as a bill of goods is doing humanity a dis-service. best, Selma
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
2009/7/17 Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com: It is unfortunate that Fr Ivo a man of letters and reading has condoned the practice of exorcism I don't think it's fair to condemn or criticise someone for their religious beliefs, however bizarre these seem to us, specially when they don't affect us! Is this a latter day version of the White Man's burden? Or the Scientific Man's burden? FN The Catholic Church revised the Rite of Exorcism in January 1999, though the traditional Rite of Exorcism in Latin is allowed as an option. The act of exorcism is considered to be an incredibly dangerous spiritual task. The ritual assumes that possessed persons retain their free will, though the demon may hold control over their physical body, and involves prayers, blessings, and invocations with the use of the document Of Exorcisms and Certain Supplications. Other formulas may have been used in the past, such as the Benedictine Vade retro satana. In the modern era, Catholic bishops rarely authorize exorcisms, approaching would-be cases with the presumption that mental or physical illness is more likely. In mild cases the Chaplet of Saint Michael could be used. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism PS: There's more interesting background here to understand how this came about, from where, and what are current-day attitudes to it...
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
--- On Fri, 7/17/09, Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक न fredericknoro...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think it's fair to condemn or criticise someone for their religious beliefs, however bizarre these seem to us, specially when they don't affect us! - Dear FN, Please give us a list of the things we can condemn in life. I'm sure it will be a very short list :-) Best, selma
[Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
On Fri, 7/17/09, Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक न fredericknoronha at gmail.com http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org wrote: * ** I don't think it's fair to condemn or criticise someone for* * their* * religious beliefs, however bizarre these seem to us,* * specially when* * they don't affect us!* * *--Dear FN,Please give us a list of the things we can condemn in life. I'm sure it will be a very short list :-) Best,selma - 1. The Ten Commandments. 2. Not wearing seat belts. 3. keeping children in the front seat while driving 4. Going to Potta just to see the tamasha and to critisize, The list goes on and on. Caj.
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
--- On Wed, 7/15/09, isouza icso...@sancharnet.in wrote: Homeopathy requires an individualised treatment. Therefore, patients cannot be subjected to double-blind trials. This is exactly the kind of convenient cop out that tells us why this practice is fundamentally unscientific. A double-blind experiment is the essence of scientific objectivity. Without it the subjective biases that are rampant among observers and the observed cannot be ruled out. Faith-based illusions and delusions cannot be dispelled. No dispassionate critical assessment is possible. No scientific fact can be ascertained. No objective evidence can ever be obtained. This outdated idiosyncratic fabrication of homeopathy is doomed to the same fate as astrology and witchcraft, which are also claimed to be individualized rituals impervious to double-blind randomized controlled observations. The outlandish claims of cures made in the above post have no basis in reality. Edzard Ernst has examined all the existing hodgepodge literature on homeopathy inside out. No treatment has been found to be effective by any objective measure. The above cop out ensures that none will. Despite the empty braggadocious pronouncements, no effects of any kind have ever been reproducibly recorded on any measurable attribute of the human immune system. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com --- On Wed, 7/15/09, isouza icso...@sancharnet.in wrote: Homeopathy requires an individualised treatment. Therefore, patients cannot be subjected to double-blind trials. This is exactly the kind of convenient cop out that tells us why this practice is fundamentally unscientific. A double-blind experiment is the essence of scientific objectivity. Without it the subjective biases that are rampant among observers and the observed cannot be ruled out. Faith-based illusions and delusions cannot be dispelled. No dispassionate critical assessment is possible. No scientific fact can be ascertained. No objective evidence can ever be obtained. ***Wrong, it is not fundamentally unscientific, when the results of the homeopathic drugs are tested with scientific means. You do not understand that there is scientific evidence for cures when the data are observed, measured, verified before and after the treatment. When I said that patients cannot be subjected to double-blind trials, I mean that one medicine cannot be given to all the patients of the same disease and compared with placebo-groups or allopathic drug-takers. Each patient is treated on globality of symptoms. You are misunderstanding because you do not know about it. Likewise, miracles cannot be subjected to double-blind trials, because miracles are rare and are to be judged as medically impossible by the panel of physicians (some of them are 'agnostic' like you, but they are practising modern conventional medicine). God is the Author. This outdated idiosyncratic fabrication of homeopathy is doomed to the same fate as astrology and witchcraft, which are also claimed to be individualized rituals impervious to double-blind randomized controlled observations. ***Wrong again. You cannot put on the same platform homeopathy and astrology/witchcraft. Astrology has its own plus points and has to be taken as such. The Universe is interconnected, stars and moon have influence on human beings. I do not accept witchcraft. Let me correct you: Homeopathy does not belong to individualized rituals.You can have double-blind randomized controlled observations if you understand, as I said above, that homeopathic drugs have to be selected according to the totality of symptoms. There are scientific principles to be followed while prescribing homeopathic drugs. The outlandish claims of cures made in the above post have no basis in reality. Edzard Ernst has examined all the existing hodgepodge literature on homeopathy inside out. No treatment has been found to be effective by any objective measure. The above cop out ensures that none will. Despite the empty braggadocious pronouncements, no effects of any kind have ever been reproducibly recorded on any measurable attribute of the human immune system. ***These slogans are unscientific. Homeopathic cures do have basis in reality. They are scientifically tested. Edzard Ernst is no authority on this matter. Let Dr.Santosh not base himself blindly on his authority, by surfing on the Internet, but come down humbly and verify the data according to his abilities... His biased statements cannot be held face to scientific evidence. Let him not pontificate on all matters, like homeopathy, religion, miracles, God and astrology... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
--- On Thu, 7/16/09, isouza icso...@sancharnet.in wrote: Astrology has its own plus points and has to be taken as such. The Universe is interconnected, stars and moon have influence on human beings. I do not accept witchcraft. This is hilarious. Accepting one unscientific ritual and rejecting another appears to be based entirely on quirky personal tastes, faiths, moods, whims and fancies. I am tempted to provide a list of all the fantastic quack practices to find out which ones are to be accepted and which ones are to be rejected, just for fun. Perhaps, exorcism is in and voodoo is out on the basis of these made up foggy individualized idiosyncrasies. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
In a few words, Santosh has described a similar brand of medicine, much utilized in the West : it is called psychiatry ! It is home to several of its own 'schools,' some soggy and idiosyncratic, with early forms bordering on the ritualistic. Churchmen (Faith) were not exactly mesmerized by Freud's 'quirky' discourses, in the 1920's. As for 'hilarious', may be not, but the sad soul probably leaves the couch momentarily happier. eric. --- On Thu, 7/16/09, isouza icso...@sancharnet.in wrote: Astrology has its own plus points and has to be taken as such. The Universe is interconnected, stars and moon have influence on human beings. I do not accept witchcraft. This is hilarious. Accepting one unscientific ritual and rejecting another appears to be based entirely on quirky personal tastes, faiths, moods, whims and fancies. I am tempted to provide a list of all the fantastic quack practices to find out which ones are to be accepted and which ones are to be rejected, just for fun. Perhaps, exorcism is in and voodoo is out on the basis of these made up foggy individualized idiosyncrasies. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
Eric is right. Psychiatry until recently, especially before it emerged from the Freudian flights of fancy, was also a quirky quack enterprise. Hopefully, some of us will be able to transform it into a complete science in the near future. Cheers, Santosh --- On Thu, 7/16/09, eric pinto ericpin...@yahoo.com wrote: In a few words, Santosh has described a similar brand of medicine, much utilized in the West : it is called psychiatry ! It is home to several of its own 'schools,' some soggy and idiosyncratic, with early forms bordering on the ritualistic. Churchmen (Faith) were not exactly mesmerized by Freud's 'quirky' discourses, in the 1920's. As for 'hilarious', may be not, but the sad soul probably leaves the couch momentarily happier. eric.
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com --- On Thu, 7/16/09, isouza icso...@sancharnet.in wrote: Astrology has its own plus points and has to be taken as such. The Universe is interconnected, stars and moon have influence on human beings. I do not accept witchcraft. This is hilarious. Accepting one unscientific ritual and rejecting another appears to be based entirely on quirky personal tastes, faiths, moods, whims and fancies. I am tempted to provide a list of all the fantastic quack practices to find out which ones are to be accepted and which ones are to be rejected, just for fun. Perhaps, exorcism is in and voodoo is out on the basis of these made up foggy individualized idiosyncrasies. ***I am discussing the value of homeopathy as a scientific medical system, as we see its benefits in our daily practice, and the cures are tested by scientific means. That is the reason why I called nice articles like those of Edzard Ernst scientific quackery... Dr.Santosh may be accepting them as scientific, but I cannot. Regarding the influence of moon and stars, I know that patients can be influenced by phases of moon or cloudy weather (for example, asthmatic and insane). It is taken into account in homeopathic medicine. But stars/spirits cannot determine our fate. God is our Father, as St.Paul of Tarsus clearly taught the Colossians (Col 1:15-20). I cannot accept sorcery, divination, witchcraft, black magic, voodoo (important for people from Haiti). These are against Religion. But we do accept exorcism, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: (no.1673 )When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing. In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called a major exorcism, can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness. I saw the film The Exorcist in 1973. I am with Dr.Santosh in fighting out superstition, sorcery and black magic. We do need scientific, critical mind. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
In esponse to this from me: jc2: Sure, provide anecdotal evidence but then in order to grow test the efficacy and safety by 'scientific' means available to ALL scientists. Fr Ivo wrote: ***Anecdotal evidence can come from the patients themselves or from the physicians. . Anecdotal evidence has to be supported by scientific evidence, namely by all necessary lab tests, as well as X-ray, ultra-sound, CT scanning, MRI, whatever is needed... === Dear Fr Ivo, I give up. It appears from the above that your concept of testing the efficacy and safety by 'scientific' means available to ALL scientists is quite different from what is universally accepted norm for testing i.e. by way of stastistical analysis of raw data - statistical bias having been removed to prevent the skewing of results. And . you expect there to be cooperation between Homeopathy and Modern Medicine? BTW: Anecdotally (and as Guiness had once claimed) Paddy the world famous Irishman would swear that a couple of pints of Guiness would do wonders for him and his wife. He would point out to his 10 children - all conceived after consuming 2 pints of that awful brew. On the other hand he would point out to his neighbour, Shamus who only drank Heineken. Shamus and his wife had only 7 kids. Anecdotally as Paddy would state Guiness makes a person 'strong'. OK . Thank you Fr Ivo. jc
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
I need to add this : Psychiatrists plays a useful and essential role in the delivery of comprehensive medical care to a community. A near bankrupt US Veterans Administration pays them twenty thousand dollars a month, which sends us a message. They have access to drugs that did not exist only a few years ago, and offer a whole new world to the very ill - psychotic or in psychosomatic compromise, as well as ones who who just plain unhappy - neurotic or depressed. This care is not available to large segments of our population, and our 'allied' practitioners can and often do fill the void. This may explain their atttraction to persons who have the savvies and should know better, but rely on 'faith' and smile away rational belief for a fling at fancy and magic. I will not quarrell with an unreal remedy if the ailment is also a little touch of fiction. eric. Eric is right. Psychiatry until recently, especially before it emerged from the Freudian flights of fancy, was also a quirky quack enterprise. Hopefully, some of us will be able to transform it into a complete science in the near future. Cheers, Santosh --- On Thu, 7/16/09, eric pinto ericpin...@yahoo.com wrote: In a few words, Santosh has described a similar brand of medicine, much utilized in the West : it is called psychiatry ! It is home to several of its own 'schools,' some soggy and idiosyncratic, with early forms bordering on the ritualistic. Churchmen (Faith) were not exactly mesmerized by Freud's 'quirky' discourses, in the 1920's. As for 'hilarious', may be not, but the sad soul probably leaves the couch momentarily happier. eric.
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
Santosh Helekar wrote: This is hilarious. Accepting one unscientific ritual and rejecting another appears to be based entirely on quirky personal tastes, faiths, moods, whims and fancies. I am tempted to provide a list of all the fantastic quack practices to find out which ones are to be accepted and which ones are to be rejected, just for fun. Perhaps, exorcism is in and voodoo is out on the basis of these made up foggy individualized idiosyncrasies. Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 04:22:38 -0700 (PDT) From: eric pinto ericpin...@yahoo.com In a few words, Santosh has described a similar brand of medicine, much utilized in the West : it is called psychiatry! It is home to several of its own 'schools,' some soggy and idiosyncratic, with early forms bordering on the ritualistic. Churchmen (Faith) were not exactly mesmerized by Freud's 'quirky' discourses, in the 1920's. As for 'hilarious', may be not, but the sad soul probably leaves the couch momentarily happier. Mario responds: Hey, Eric, Kitem mhontai, re? I read what Santosh wrote and saw no mention of Psychiatry, which requires a practitioner to be a Board Certified M.D. does it not? Perhaps you are referring to Psychology. While I am aware that every psychiatric patient often becomes a virtual lifetime annuity for the practitioner, I think one could also say the same about physiatry and pain management and sometimes dermatology.
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
To Mario - agga kittem mhuntolloi, I have stood on the sidelines all along, but could not resist this time around ! I hope I offfered solace to both sides. Jawahar Mehta MD is a prominent Bombay psychiatrist. He made it there partly because I surrendered the only post-grad spot that was available for a Resident at the JJ in Bombay, in 1972. He had come over to plead, and few things leave me happier than the memory, and to know he made good. He was a Marys' kid. Dad used to say that Churchill's words provided half the ammunition when the skies were very grey in 1941 : The PM was no shrink, more ways than one ! eric. Santosh Helekar wrote: This is hilarious. Accepting one unscientific ritual and rejecting another appears to be based entirely on quirky personal tastes, faiths, moods, whims and fancies. I am tempted to provide a list of all the fantastic quack practices to find out which ones are to be accepted and which ones are to be rejected, just for fun. Perhaps, exorcism is in and voodoo is out on the basis of these made up foggy individualized idiosyncrasies. Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 04:22:38 -0700 (PDT) From: eric pinto ericpin...@yahoo.com In a few words, Santosh has described a similar brand of medicine, much utilized in the West : it is called psychiatry! It is home to several of its own 'schools,' some soggy and idiosyncratic, with early forms bordering on the ritualistic. Churchmen (Faith) were not exactly mesmerized by Freud's 'quirky' discourses, in the 1920's. As for 'hilarious', may be not, but the sad soul probably leaves the couch momentarily happier. Mario responds: Hey, Eric, Kitem mhontai, re? I read what Santosh wrote and saw no mention of Psychiatry, which requires a practitioner to be a Board Certified M.D. does it not? Perhaps you are referring to Psychology. While I am aware that every psychiatric patient often becomes a virtual lifetime annuity for the practitioner, I think one could also say the same about physiatry and pain management and sometimes dermatology.
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
From: SHRIKANT BARVE shri8...@yahoo.com Here is his interview in New Scientist: Edzard Ernst http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19826531.400-interview-the-complementary-medicine-detective.html?full=trueprint=true Santosh This is very interesting interview. This will help me a lot in my work on All systems of medicine should interact with each other regularly for good of Humanity Shrikant Vinayak Barve Convener: We Love Ayurved 9403175973 ***This is precisely what I am saying from our own observation and experience. All medical systems should grow scientifically and work together. I endorse integration of all medical systems. All have their plus and minus points. All are needed. Medicine is not a panacea for all evils. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
Srikant Barve says: This will help me a lot in my work on All systems of medicine should interact with each other regularly for good of Humanity Fr Ivo says: All medical systems should grow scientifically and work together. I endorse integration of all medical systems. All have their plus and minus points. All are needed. Medicine is not a panacea for all evils. === jc's response: All systems which expect to interact with each other, work together and grow 'scientifically' - must endeavour to do the following (IMHO): 1: Provide 'scientific' proof that the 'substances they use' have been tested, the side-effects noted, the patients advised of their side-effects and cross-reactions with other 'substances' including foodso that it is the Patients who can make the choice based on the advice given by the doctor. 2: Sure, provide anecdotal evidence but then in order to grow test the efficacy and safety by 'scientific' means available to ALL scientists. I suggest that 'substances' which are NOT subjected to rigorous scientific testing and accurate reporting, will not receive the respect of the scientific community. This is what happened to Vioxx. This is what happens to countless 'remedies' on the market. jc
[Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com --- On Mon, 7/13/09, isouza icso...@sancharnet.in wrote: ***I am reading this type of nice articles from 'allopathic' surgeons and physicians, but it is difficult to believe them. Have they studied homeopathy, practised the principles and compared with 'allopathy', as Dr.S.Chander Madan, for example, has done for 30 years? Edzard Ernst, one of the authors of this nice article is the world's first professor of Complementary Medicine at University of Exeter. Unlike S. Chander Madan, he was formally trained in homeopathy, and practiced it for several years in a homeopathic hospital in Germany. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19826531.400-interview-the-complementary-medicine-detective.html?full=trueprint=true ***Edzard Ernst cannot speak for all homeopathic practitioners. His opinion is being contradicted by everyday practice of thousands and thousands of homeopathic practitioners around the globe. If for acute cases sometimes 'allopathic' analgesics or bronchodilators/inhalers are used as S.O.S., it does not defeat homeopathy. Allopathy cannot cure asthma, whereas homeopathy can. This only enhances our statement that all medical systems should cooperate for the health welfare. In surgical cases, sometimes surgery can be avoided through homeopathic drugs (for example, in cysts and fibroids), though surgery is a must according to the 'allopathic' practitioners. Wrist ganglion can be cured with homeopathic drugs only, without surgery. Homeopathy can treat with success gynecological cases where 'allopathy' would prescribe hormonal drugs with serious side-effects. Homeopathy can help in nephropathy. This is clear for Dr.S.Chander Madan, but not for Dr.Edzard Ernst... who is not a true homeopath, inspite of his title. Homeopathy requires an individualised treatment. Therefore, patients cannot be subjected to double-blind trials. There are formally trained 'allopaths' who are not sucessful, so also there are formally trained homeopaths who do not practise homeopathy and are not successful... Regards. Fr.Ivo 'The discrepancy between experience and evidence is easy to explain. People may benefit from the encounter with the practitioner and not from the remedy; they might as well be given a placebo. That's very upsetting for a homeopath but it is nevertheless true. Many alternative practitioners develop an excellent relationship with their patients, and this helps to maximise the placebo effect of an otherwise useless treatment. Having said that, I believe the routine use of placebos is unacceptable for several reasons. Doctors should never lie to their patients, for instance; it would lead to a widespread culture of deception in medicine. ***People 'believe' more in 'allopathic' physicians than on 'homeopathic' practitioners, yet the truth lies somewhere else. I repeat: All systems are needed. The physicians should be honest. There are 'allopathic' doctors who are taking with success homeopathic drugs for asthma. There are some, perhaps, a few, who reccommend it to their patients. But the real reason, I have come to conclude, is that people are being lied to. Practitioners of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) often fail to explain what the evidence shows and does not show. It is a triumph of advertising over rationality: many of the 40 million or so websites on alternative medicine promote outrageous lies. People seem quite gullible, and the situation is not helped by high-profile supporters of CAM. ***How can we deceive them? All scientific lab tests do prove it. Mainstream medicine is not always transparent, but complementary medicine is several degrees more murky. You don't have the big financial interests, it's not big drug firms that are hiding data. Instead, it's the many people who are obsessed with their conviction that the acupuncture needle is a panacea or that homeopathy has to be good for you, and if the trial data doesn't support it there must be something wrong with the trial. Plenty of negative studies of alternative treatments don't see the light of day. ***More work should be done. More financial support should be given to all so-called 'alternative' therapies... Accupuncture is not a panacea, neither 'allopathy' is But Dr.Edzard Ernst himself has found 5 per cent success in accupuncture and 'herbal remedies. Therefore, CAM is valid at least for a few cases... Homeopathy has been successful in his own family for so many diseases, except for kidney colic... which requires special drugs. Once when I had a kidney colic as a young boy, which I remember as being immensely painful, he gave me conventional painkillers without hesitation; there was no fumbling around with homeopathic alternatives. Science taught me foremost is to apply critical thinking to everything I do. ***Let us apply critical thinking while passing a verdict on homeopathy and other medical systems... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
From: J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com Srikant Barve says: This will help me a lot in my work on All systems of medicine should interact with each other regularly for good of Humanity Fr Ivo says: All medical systems should grow scientifically and work together. I endorse integration of all medical systems. All have their plus and minus points. All are needed. Medicine is not a panacea for all evils. === jc's response: All systems which expect to interact with each other, work together and grow 'scientifically' - must endeavour to do the following (IMHO): 1: Provide 'scientific' proof that the 'substances they use' have been tested, the side-effects noted, the patients advised of their side-effects and cross-reactions with other 'substances' including foodso that it is the Patients who can make the choice based on the advice given by the doctor. ***Drugs are tested on clinical trials. 2: Sure, provide anecdotal evidence but then in order to grow test the efficacy and safety by 'scientific' means available to ALL scientists. ***Anecdotal evidence can come from the patients themselves or from the physicians. The patients will tell the beneficial changes that took place in them and have been tested by the lab. Physicians will see the changes in the patients, subjective and objective symptoms, and see the various lab reports. Anecdotal evidence has to be supported by scientific evidence, namely by all necessary lab tests, as well as X-ray, ultra-sound, CT scanning, MRI, whatever is needed... I suggest that 'substances' which are NOT subjected to rigorous scientific testing and accurate reporting, will not receive the respect of the scientific community. This is what happened to Vioxx. This is what happens to countless 'remedies' on the market. ***The spurious remedies should be immediately rejected. I remember that some years back a deadly virus was found in some injections of human immunoglobulin, and it was stopped. Any ayurvedic or homeopathic remedies, found to be spurious, should be immediately withdrawn from the market. If cortisone is mixed in any homeopathic medicine, it is to be rejected. Cortisone should be stopped, when homeopathic treatment begins. If metals are mixed in ayurvedic drugs, they are to be banned. Remedies should be genuine. Some allopathic companies do not produce quality remedies, they should be stopped. I am speaking of genuine homeopathic and ayurvedic drugs which are subjected to clinical trials by countless homeopathic and ayurvedic practitioners. Many ayurvedic products are being used with success by 'allopathic' practitioners. I spoke to some of them who have found ayurvedic remedies effective even for diabetes, allergies, and skin diseases, like vitiligo... Homeopathy can treat cases of respiratory and skin diseases with great success. Credit goes to Dr.Samuel Hanehmann. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com Here is a link to a nice article on the absurdities of homeopathy by a world-renowned British cancer surgeon and a pre-eminent professor of complementary medicine who has thoroughly reviewed the literature on homeopathy: http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/printable/5100/ Here is the link to the full report: http://www.homeowatch.org/articles/jaroff.html ***I am reading this type of nice articles from 'allopathic' surgeons and physicians, but it is difficult to believe them. Have they studied homeopathy, practised the principles and compared with 'allopathy', as Dr.S.Chander Madan, for example, has done for 30 years? This is not argument of authority, but of scientific evidence. It is not enough to gulp down articles against homeopathy, and try to end the system, which will be impossible for the simple reason that homeopathy is effective with its principles. The wrong statements given about homeopathy as faith-based rituals indicate the bias and the inaccuracy of the articles. A police statement can give a verdict that it was suicide instead of homicide and dump the case into oblivion... The truth remains that it was a homicide. I would accept that homeopathy does not work if it happens in every case that it does not work at all, after having selected the correct medicine. One medicine may not work, the other medicine chosen correctly will surely work... This is our everyday experience. That is the beauty of homeopathy. It is absurd to say that if one takes globules of Lachesis (snake venom) and does not die, that the homeopathic medicine does not act in the living person and through the immune system heal the disease Regards. Fr.Ivo --- On Sat, 7/11/09, isouza icso...@sancharnet.in wrote: ***I am glad that Goan physicians are interested in homoeopathy. I myself am interested in recent advances in homeopathy. With my experience of 30 years, I find it worth studying even deeper. If it could cure the incurable diseases, it would be really a boon for humanity. I know that it cannot be a panacea for all evils. People have wrong impressions about homeopathy... All these inaccurate statements are to be corrected with the genuine scientific evidence which is available today in the 'allopathic' and 'homeopathic' systems. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
--- On Mon, 7/13/09, isouza icso...@sancharnet.in wrote: ***I am reading this type of nice articles from 'allopathic' surgeons and physicians, but it is difficult to believe them. Have they studied homeopathy, practised the principles and compared with 'allopathy', as Dr.S.Chander Madan, for example, has done for 30 years? Edzard Ernst, one of the authors of this nice article is the world's first professor of Complementary Medicine at University of Exeter. Unlike S. Chander Madan, he was formally trained in homeopathy, and practiced it for several years in a homeopathic hospital in Germany. Here is a short profile of him: Profile Edzard Ernst is Maurice Laing chair of complementary medicine at the University of Exeter in the UK. He qualified as a physician in Germany and has trained in acupuncture, homeopathy and other alternative treatments. He was previously head of the department of physical medicine and rehabilitation at the University of Vienna, Austria. Here is his interview in New Scientist: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19826531.400-interview-the-complementary-medicine-detective.html?full=trueprint=true Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
Here is his interview in New Scientist: Edzard Ernst http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19826531.400-interview-the-complementary-medicine-detective.html?full=trueprint=true Cheers, Santosh This is very interesting interview. This will help me a lot in my work on All systems of medicine should interact with each other regularly for good of Humanity Shrikant Vinayak Barve Convener: We Love Ayurved 9403175973 Yahoo! recommends that you upgrade to the new and safer Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
Here is a link to a nice article on the absurdities of homeopathy by a world-renowned British cancer surgeon and a pre-eminent professor of complementary medicine who has thoroughly reviewed the literature on homeopathy: http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/printable/5100/ I think people who want to promote reason and honesty in matters of human health ought to recognize that the only role that untested healing rituals such as homeopathy could have in our society is a psychological one. For homeopathy relies entirely on magical thinking, even more so than Ayurveda. Its very basis is contrary to our elementary understanding of chemistry. Time and again clinical studies have shown that homeopathic remedies are essentially worthless i.e. no better than placebo controls. This is because none of the so-called potent homeopathic medications contains even a single molecule of any active drug. They are made up nothing but inert sugar, alcohol and water. Some years ago to demonstrate this fact and the fact that the claims of homeopathy are totally bogus, a group of Belgians, including medical scientists attempted to commit mass suicide by taking large quantities of the deadliest homeopathic drugs. They invited homeopaths to participate as well, but were unsuccessful in motivating them to do so. Perhaps, the homeopaths genuinely believed that they would end up dead. Not surprisingly though the people who participated in the public mass suicide were not affected by the large doses of homeopathic poisons. Here is an excerpt from a report on this episode by Leon Jaroff of Time magazine: QUOTE In front of reporters from Belgium’s major newspapers and television stations, 23 volunteers—respected medical professors, a well-known TV producer, a top publicist, and several ordinary citizens—gulped down large quantities of over-the-counter homeopathic solutions based on deadly poisons. These included snake venom, deadly nightshade, arsenic and, just for the hell of it, dog milk. Dog milk was included because a homeopathic reference book (materia medica) actually says that undiluted dog milk can cause such disturbances as vomiting, bloody pus discharges, sciatica (right side) and dreams of snakes. Even more ominous, the solutions were labeled 30C. This meant that one part of the original substance had been diluted in 100 parts of water or alcohol, shaken, and then diluted again at a ratio of 100 to one, a process that was repeated 30 times. According to homeopaths, each time a solution is shaken, the properties of the original substance are miraculously transferred to the water or alcohol solvent, and each cycle enhances or dynamizes the properties of the solution. Shouldn’t that make the original poison even more potent? Apparently not. All of the 23 volunteers survived, but some who came by car had to wait before returning home because the alcohol in their homeopathic solutions had made them too dizzy to drive. UNQUOTE Here is the link to the full report: http://www.homeowatch.org/articles/jaroff.html Cheers, Santosh --- On Sat, 7/11/09, isouza icso...@sancharnet.in wrote: ***I am glad that Goan physicians are interested in homoeopathy. I myself am interested in recent advances in homeopathy. With my experience of 30 years, I find it worth studying even deeper. If it could cure the incurable diseases, it would be really a boon for humanity. I know that it cannot be a panacea for all evils. People have wrong impressions about homeopathy, namely that it is slow, it has 'placebo'-effect, it is based on faith, it does not diagnose well. All these inaccurate statements are to be corrected with the genuine scientific evidence which is available today in the 'allopathic' and 'homeopathic' systems. Homeopathic practitioners can test with all the modern means. I am happy to know about genuine concerns for health on the part of Shrikant Barve. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Pursuing Homoeopathy
From: Goanet Events goa...@goanet.org Shri Kamaxidevi Homoeopathic Medical College and Hospital Are pleased to invite you to a half-day seminar on Pursuing Homoeopathy - Holistic Way Fundamentals of Homoeopathy - Dr. Arvind Kothe, Principal Preventive, Promotive and Clinical Spectrum - Dr. Anjali Chodnekar, Faculty Recent Advances in Homoeopathy - Dr. Susheel Neogi, Faculty Homoeopathy and Public Perception - Dr. Malini Desai, Faculty QA, Discussion On Sunday, 12th July 2009 From 9:30 am to 1:00 pm At The International Centre Goa, Goa University Road, Dona Paula - Goa For Prior Registration Contact: Shrikant Barve, (CONVENER) Odlembhat, Taleigao Goa. 2451143/ 9403175973/ shri8...@gmail.com SOURCE: www.goadialogues.com ***I am glad that Goan physicians are interested in homoeopathy. I myself am interested in recent advances in homeopathy. With my experience of 30 years, I find it worth studying even deeper. If it could cure the incurable diseases, it would be really a boon for humanity. I know that it cannot be a panacea for all evils. People have wrong impressions about homeopathy, namely that it is slow, it has 'placebo'-effect, it is based on faith, it does not diagnose well. All these inaccurate statements are to be corrected with the genuine scientific evidence which is available today in the 'allopathic' and 'homeopathic' systems. Homeopathic practitioners can test with all the modern means. I am happy to know about genuine concerns for health on the part of Shrikant Barve. Regards. Fr.Ivo
