Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate - Mario
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 7:20:17 -0800 From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] We in our social/medical circles say that someone suffers from the Senator L C Syndrome (says one thing and does the opposite). Yet it appears this may have quite a different connotation from what many non-medical individuals/social circles may think. Mario responds: You know as well as I do that your social/medical circles have latched on to Larry Craig because he is being accused of homosexuality. The guys a politician for God's sake. They could just as well have used Hillary Clinton as being synonymous with hypocrisy on a whole host of issues, not just one. Gilbert wrote: So I am not sure whose mind-set is lower.:=)) Yet I fully understand the cause of confusion. Mario responds: Oh, I'm pretty sure I know where your social/medical mind-set is, as my answer above shows beyond any reasonable doubt:-)) Besides, you still haven't shown where brother Cornel has been a hypocrite on the issue of caste.
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate - Mario
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Hi Mario, We in our social / medical circles say that someone suffers from the Senator L C Syndrome (says one thing and does the opposite). Yet it appears this may have quite a different connotation from what many non-medical individuals / social circles may think. So I am not sure whose mind-set is lower.:=)) Yet I fully understand the cause of confusion. Surely most Americans should know, that Senator Craig's issue was HYPOCRISY. Yet, I have to keep reminding myself: soglem sagum zai murre.:=)) Kind Regards, GL --- Mario Goveia Yes, George, I understand very well what the comment means, and I'm sure everyone else who does will agree that it is probably the most gratuitously abhorrent and misguided comment I have ever heard from Gilbert on this or any other subject.
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate - Gilbert
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:46:36 -0800 From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are right about my post to Cornel. I wrote it in a hurry since I did not want to waste time with his same old ... same old... . Yet after I posted it, I wished I expanded the basic issues. As a US resident you found the Senator Larry Craig reference confusing. So it is likely others (including Cornel) found it even more puzzling. Though, a web search on Senator Larry Craig would shed some light. Mario responds: Aye, aye aye! Gilbert, whither goest thou, or should I say, kitem mhontai re? Are you telling us that, bored with the same oldsame old, your determination to not self-plagiarize made you do it? As I advised another poster recently, When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you need to do is stop digging! BTW, did I just self-plagiarize? :-)) When I read your excuse for using the Larry Craig reference to malign brother Cornel, with whom I agree on NOTHING other than our shared abhorrence of the caste system, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Without going into the graphic details of his actions in a public toilet, Larry Craig is suspected by many of being a closet homosexual while preaching against homosexuality. While this may make him a hypocrite I'm not sure how this can compare with anything that brother Cornel has said or done on the issue of caste. Let's take the verbal gymnastics in your following construct: Cornel's obvious casteist attitudes (inflating his own resume by demeaning other Goans), and his repeated (self-plagiarized) anti-casteist rants does show hypocrisy. The last time I checked brother Cornel's casteist attitude boiled down to opposing a social system that continues to discriminate and divide us simply by the accident of birth, not the content of our character or achievement. That, by itself, would make it an abomination by any modern standard in my never humble opinion. I have no idea what inflating his own resume by demeaning other Goans even means. Is criticizing other Goans for proselytising on behalf of blatant discrimination mean they are being demeaned? Wouldn't that mean that criticizing anyone for anything is demeaning them? Isn't self-plagiarized a non-sequitur, by definition? Aren't we permitted to re-use our own words as often as we like? I thought plagiarizing was filching someone else's words. Unless you can show us where brother Cornel has included caste in his personal decision-making, by, for example, suggesting that someone among his family or friends marry, or not marry, someone defined by their caste, how can you accuse him of being a hypocrite on the subject? Here is another allegation I could not relate to: ...So back to Cornel, his anti-casteism writings may be a compensatory response to his personal obvious weakness of Casteism. Again the reference to a personal weakness relative to casteism. What exactly are you accusing brother Cornel of in his personal use of casteism? As far as ranting is concerned, I don't think brother Cornel's comments on the subject even rise to the level of a REAL rant, especially when compared to mine. I KNOW how to rant. I also think you know better than to accuse ME of any hypocrisy when I rant on this subject and the misery I have seen it cause to people whose character and achievements were above reproach but were considered to have been born in the wrong families. Finally, at the risk of being accused of self-plagiarizing, here is my conclusion from another post on the subject appealing to people to start STAMPING OUT this system that has gone on far too long: The caste system has no other earthly reason than to discriminate, to deny individual character and achievement, permanently and without recourse. No more explanations, excuses, sophistry. We need ACTION, starting in our own homes.
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate - Santosh
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Thanks Santosh for your clarifications. As you state below you are opposed to all forms of ideology. I accept that. I have said in the past, your claim to fame on Goanet is, you are opposed to everything that anybody writes. And you know what I call that? :=)) Clarifications and Solutions are not found by merely denouncing others. It is found by providing one's own observations and explanations or alternative concepts to issues; or supporting or expanding what others say. This also involves understanding and accepting other points of view. Your Opposed to all forms of ideology may well arise from your failure to understand some of those ideologies. After all you cannot be an authority of everything. Perhaps in this thread you should clarify your thinking, Are humans BORN MORAL?. This could be a yes / no answer. Now in fairness to you, you did say WHAT you are willing to defend. To quote you (see below), defend with evidence both hatred and compassion at least 7 million years in our evolutionary history. There is only a small problem with the above. Humans did not exists this long ... not even half as long ... not even one-tenth as long. So as a supurlo Goenkar, I am not sure what exactly (science, philosophy or theology) you are willing to defend with evidence ... from ... at least 7 million years in OUR evolutionary history. Ghuspot murree? Homo sapiens (from Wikipedia): H. sapiens (sapiens means wise or intelligent) has lived from about 250,000 years ago to the present. Between 400,000 years ago and the second interglacial period in the Middle Pleistocene, around 250,000 years ago, the trend in cranial expansion and the elaboration of stone tool technologies developed, providing evidence for a transition from H. erectus to H. sapiens. The earliest fossil hominid, Ardipithecus ramidus, is dated at 4.4 million years. Can you clarify the animals of at least 7 million years ago had hatred and compassion (what ever that means) and how was that different from the behavior patterns of dinosaurs who existed 65 million years ago? Are you using the terms Hatred and Compassion in animals interchangeably with human Morality and Ideology? Your attempt to switch the terms of this thread suggest that you may be getting out of your league - just like me.:=)) I will let you have the last word on this thread / debate which is How Religion Poisons Everything. Kind Regards, GL --- Santosh Helekar wrote: Those who have read and understood my writings on Goanet know that I am opposed to all forms of ideology. What is undeniable, I submit, however, and am willing to defend with evidence, is that both hatred and compassion predate theistic and atheistic ideologies by at least 7 million years in our evolutionary history.
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate - Santosh
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have said in the past, your claim to fame on Goanet is, you are opposed to everything that anybody writes. And you know what I call that? :=)) I am glad that Gilbert stopped short of name-calling. I will ignore his habitual patronizing nonsense, wasteful innuendo and gratuitous advice, and just respond briefly to two marginally pertinent points. Perhaps in this thread you should clarify your thinking, Are humans BORN MORAL?. This could be a yes / no answer. The answer to the above question is a resounding Yes. Evidence shows that no newborn or infant has ever committed any immoral act. So as a supurlo Goenkar, I am not sure what exactly (science, philosophy or theology) you are willing to defend with evidence ... from ... at least 7 million years in OUR evolutionary history. Ghuspot murree? Even a child who attends a secular school today knows that we humans evolved from an ape-like ancestor. Chimpanzees and bonobos branched off from a common human-ape ancestor at around 7 million years ago. Hatred, compassion, altruism, reciprocity, and most other things that we regard as relevant to morality are seen in chimpanzees. Many of these features are seen in bonobos, and even gorillas and baboons. Please read Our Inner Ape by the renowned primatologist Frans de Waal for a beautiful popular discussion of this research. Can you clarify the animals of at least 7 million years ago had hatred and compassion (what ever that means) and how was that different from the behavior patterns of dinosaurs who existed 65 million years ago? We have only fossil record for dinosaurs. They have no direct living descendants. So nobody has been able to infer anything about their psychology. Are you using the terms Hatred and Compassion in animals interchangeably with human Morality and Ideology? Morality has a long evolutionary history. By contrast, ideology emerged only with the emergence of language and culture, which as far as we know are unique to modern humans, and perhaps to the Neanderthal men and women. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate - Cornel
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Hi George, Thanks for your post. Perhaps you need to apply what you have written to yourself, which was further elucidated by Mario. You are right about my post to Cornel. I wrote it in a hurry since I did not want to waste time with his same old ... same old... . Yet after I posted it, I wished I expanded the basic issues. As a US resident you found the Senator Larry Craig reference confusing. So it is likely others (including Cornel) found it even more puzzling. Though, a web search on Senator Larry Craig would shed some light. Either way let me clarify, with some science, as this may be helpful to Goans. Cornel's obvious casteist attitudes (inflating his own resume by demeaning other Goans), and his repeated (self-plagiarized) anti-casteist rants does show hypocrisy. The important point, a psychiatrist friend told me during the Senator Craig episode, that this hypocrisy is a well-known psychological concept / disorder termed 'cognitive dissonance'. This is not my field. Below is from the web. I am posting the relevant part from a paper to demonstrate the science. Others can read the entire article and other related web articles including wikipedia. So back to Cornel, his anti-casteism writings may be a compensatory response to his personal obvious weakness of Casteism. The treatment for this, as per my psychiatrist friend, is psychological counseling. Perhaps Cornel should do that before he make an effort (himself) to write on his favorite topic. This advice is for his own benefit - and yes ours too. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to clarify. Finally let me repeat what you wrote for YOUR benefit, elevate the level of discussions and not making it personal. I hope you will practice what you preach. Kind Regards, GL The psychology and neuroscience of hypocrisy By Dov Michaeli MD, Ph.D What is important about this new research is showing the part of emotions in the overall mix of inputs into our decision-making. And this brings us to a potential explanation for what is called “cognitive dissonance”. What is meant by that is the nagging, and sometimes profound discomfort we feel when our behaviors don’t align with our beliefs. Our prefrontal cortex will keep nagging us, disturbing our peace of mind, interfere with our sleep, afflict us with unpleasant dreams—until we bring our behavior into alignment with our beliefs, which in reality are the products of the judgments made in the prefrontal cortex. I accept that if you say one thing and then do another, the cognitive dissonance you will suffer is a result of your weakness. But when you do one thing and then say another — this is no weakness, this is willful hypocrisy ... -- George Pinto Dear Gilbert ... If on the other hand you have LEGITIMATE arguments to make, please do so in a lucid manner (does anyone understand what the following means: Your anti-casteist stand puts you in a similar league/pathology as US Senator Larry Craig). Thank you in advance for trying to elevate the level of discussions and not making it personal. -- GL wrote: Hi Cornel, I would have thought you would know that I consider you the poster-boy for Goan casteism - inflating your own ego resume by demeaning other Goans. Your anti-casteist stand puts you in a similar league / pathology as US Senator Larry Craig. --- CORNEL DACOSTA I wish the casteists would just go away and leave Catholicism alone which they have polluted in Goa for centuries by their vile ideology. In turn, I am very critical of Catholicm in Goa that has been complicit in the evil of caste. Herein lies the dilemma to which I would value your rationale... I do hope desperately that, you may have an answer that is persuasive.
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Dear Gilbert, I have avoided getting embroiled in this debate but thought I would give you a YES/NO answer (before Bosco closes this thread) to your oft posed question below and the reason for it. YES, (a vast majority of) humans are born moral. Morality is a human construct and is based essentially on the instinctive emotion of empathy, which has been found to exist in many other species. A very small minority of people lack this emotion either from birth, because of brain injury or abnormal conditioning. This is something neither you nor Dinesh may be willing to acknowledge but the scientific investigation speaks for itself. Kevin = Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:51:55 -0800 From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate - Santosh Are humans BORN MORAL?. -- http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate - Cornel
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- --- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi George, You are right about my post to Cornel. I wrote it in a hurry since I did not want to waste time with his same old ... same old... . Yet after I posted it, I wished I expanded the basic issues. Either way let me clarify, with some science, as this may be helpful to Goans. Cornel's obvious casteist attitudes (inflating his own resume by demeaning other Goans), and his repeated (self-plagiarized) anti-casteist rants does show hypocrisy. Dear Gilbert, I am quite puzzled by your logic. In what way does inflating one's own resume make one a casteist? Also, how does inflating one's own resume demean other Goans? Or are you stating that Cornel mentioned other Goans in a demeaning manner in his resume? Can you quote chapter and verse? You further wrote: The important point, a psychiatrist friend told me during the Senator Craig episode, that this hypocrisy is a well-known psychological concept / disorder termed 'cognitive dissonance'. This is not my field. Below is from the web. I am posting the relevant part from a paper to demonstrate the science. Others can read the entire article and other related web articles including wikipedia. So back to Cornel, his anti-casteism writings may be a compensatory response to his personal obvious weakness of Casteism. The treatment for this, as per my psychiatrist friend, is psychological counseling. Perhaps Cornel should do that before he make an effort (himself) to write on his favorite topic. This advice is for his own benefit - and yes ours too. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to clarify. Dear Gilbert, Pleease explain what you mean by referring to Cornel's personal obvious weakness of Casteism. I do think you need to clarify that statement. Further, having admitted that you yourself are not a psychiatrist, and that psychiatry is not your field, you quote an article by one Dov Michaeli MD, Ph.D to support your claim that Cornel is a casteist and a hypocrite. But the article is not about Cornel, has no relevance to Cornel, and I doubt that the good Dr. Michaeli ever set eyes on Cornel. What do you think Dr. Michaeli's response would be if you wrote to him asking him to certify (via email, and without any personal contact) that Cornel had a well-known psychological concept / disorder termed 'cognitive dissonance', and asked him to recommend psychological counselling? As a medical practitioner yourself you know that he couldn't possibly agree to your request, now, could he? So what you have in fact given us is an example of irrelevant psychoanalysis via email - surely a first in medical history! I will make my own views on caste known in a separate post. Please line up the best psychiatrists you know, because you will need them to identify whatever cognitive dissonance I am suffering from. Very best personal regards, Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate - Cornel
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Cornel, I would have thought you would know that I consider you the poster-boy for Goan casteism - inflating your own ego / resume by demeaning other Goans. Your anti-casteist stand puts you in a similar league / pathology as US Senator Larry Craig. Dear Gilbert Please refrain from ad hominem attacks (attacking people) on this forum. If you have no arguments and feel you have lost to Cornel's superior ideas, then gracefully admit you have lost yet another argument. If on the other hand you have LEGITIMATE arguments to make, please do so in a lucid manner (does anyone understand what the following means: Your anti-casteist stand puts you in a similar league/pathology as US Senator Larry Craig). Thank you in advance for trying to elevate the level of discussions and not making it personal. George
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate - Mervyn
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Hi Mervyn, Thanks for your contribution. In your post below: Are you making the point (like Dinesh and me) that humans are not born MORAL? Are you making the point (like Dinesh and me) that the immoral human traits continue in some individuals in spite of religion (codes) and civil codes? Please tell me where is the beef?:=)) Kind Regards, GL - Mervyn Lobo wrote For example, here is some indication of how the Catholic church is faring in Canada. Gilbert Lawrence wrote: This is because civil laws cannot police and replace morality.
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gilbert Lawrence wrote: What we REPEATEDLY see ALL through history, across ALL continents, and ALL beliefs are community- decay and decline (even in 'advanced' societies) when the prevailing / existing religious-moral grounding is disregarded and ignored. This is because civil laws cannot police and replace morality. GL, While I give you credit for taking the time to articulate your views, there is also a flip side to your arguments. For example, here is some indication of how the Catholic church is faring in Canada. Mervyn3.0 --- Quebec cardinal seeks forgiveness for his church Mea culpa to women, Jews, natives, gays draws fire in Quebec Nov 22, 2007 04:30 AM Sean Gordon Quebec Bureau Chief THE TORONTO STAR MONTREAL-Canada's senior Roman Catholic clergyman has issued an extraordinary mea culpa for a host of historical misdeeds from sex abuse of children to anti-Semitism - raising hackles for critics of Quebec's church-dominated past. In an open letter to media, Cardinal Marc Ouellet, archbishop of Quebec and Roman Catholic primate for Canada, wrote: Errors have been committed that tarnished the church's image, and for which we must humbly ask forgiveness. I recognize that the narrow attitudes of certain Catholics prior to the 1960s favoured anti-Semitism, racism, indifference towards the First Nations and discrimination in regards to women and homosexuals, he wrote. He also indicated Catholic teachings on women's rights were out of step with society and in some cases didn't conform even to the social doctrine of the Church. Alluding to sexual abuse of children by Catholic clergy, he noted these scandals have shaken the confidence that people have in religious authorities, and we understand. Forgive us for all this pain. His unusual public sortie raised eyebrows among Catholics. http://www.thestar.com/article/278869
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Hi Gilbert Many thanks for a detailed post. However, I will confine myself to just one of your definitions as below about religion and pose a question to you without endeavouring to be personal at all. Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The following is the definition of religion as per Wikipedia. A religion is a social institution that includes a set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people, often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. To me the operative term is a a group of people living by a codified norm. CORNEL: So, my friend, I have no difficulty with the definition you used but do have enormous difficulty in understanding how you can possibly reconcile totally alien belief systems re caste within Catholicism. The two belief systems are irreconcilable as I have stated many many times. One, (Catholicism) believes in the universal brotherhood of humankind and that all men/women are born equal and worthy of equal dignity. Casteism, in contrast emphasises non-equality from birth, only promotes brotherhood along strictly segmented lines and indeed, abhors universal human dignity. In this respect, I wish the casteists would just go away and leave Catholicism alone which they have polluted in Goa for centuries by their vile ideology. In turn, I am very critical of Catholicm in Goa that has been complicit in the evil of caste. You have always been an apologist for caste and yet presented yourself as a devout Catholic. Herein lies the dilemma to which I would value your rationale in terms of the very definition you used above. And incidentally, having just returned from Goa from a 'mission' to explore caste more fully among so called Catholics in Goa, I have more hard evidence that the Church in Goa has been and continues to be complicit in caste but I will save this for later. Naturally, this disgusts me as it does many others in Goa and the Goan Diaspora. Yet, I am willing to be enlightened by you and anyone else who is inclined to respond to my simple question about how on earth it is possible to be deeply casteist and supposedly deeply Catholic. For me, only comedians would make a case for something as absurd as this but I do hope desperately that, you may have an answer that is persuasive. Kind regards Cornel
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is a pity some did not get the 'RESOLUTION' of the debate. The first debater was Christopher Hitchens. And he immediately proceeded to make the points to defend the resolution which was the title of his book - How Religion Poisons Everything. One would think that having actually WRITTEN THE BOOK, Hitchens would be in a better position to defend his 'thesis' and the resolution. Looks like either Gilbert did not attend and listen to this debate, as he claimed in his initial announcement, or he has somehow revised and twisted the debate in his memory. The debate as recorded on the King's College website shows that D'Souza was the first debater, not Hitchens. Please check: http://www.tkc.edu/debate/ Gilbert also seems to be confused about what is meant by a resolution in a debate. A debate resolution is always stated explicitly by the moderator of a debate. It cannot be implicitly assumed to be the subtitle of a book that the second debater has written. In the rest of what Gilbert has written, I don't know why he feels the need to put words in my mouth and to propagate his misunderstanding of my views and position with respect to science, communism and atheism. I have no idea why he thinks that the mere fact that I am a scientist makes me an atheist communist. Those who have read and understood my writings on Goanet know that I am opposed to all forms of ideology, especially when they are propagated and enforced by autocratic systems. It is true that both atheistic and theistic autocracies have committed mass murders and other criminal acts. Perhaps, an atheistic dictator who kills 100 people with a machine gun is worse than a theistic dictator who kills one woman with a stone. I feel no urge, nor see any reason, to defend or rationalize the behavior or beliefs of either of them. What is undeniable, I submit, however, and am willing to defend with evidence, is that both hatred and compassion predate theistic and atheistic ideologies by at least 7 million years in our evolutionary history. I am also willing to refute the chauvinistic claim repeated below by Gilbert from D'Souza that equality was first proclaimed by Christianity. I don't know in which prehistoric tribal culture this concept first emerged but its virtue and practice are documented in the scriptures of several Eastern religions as well as Amerindian cultures, all of which predate Christianity. Cheers, Santosh Gilbert wrote: Atheists make 'religion' a THEORETICAL debate as Santosh so well exemplified. The 'organized atheist' societies from which to draw practical experience of atheism are communist societies. Scientist Santosh should know, larger the data-base more definitive / certain are the conclusions. Yet the MORAL performance of the communist societies are rarely referred to by atheists, specially Hitchens, Selma and Santosh. I wonder WHY? My Chinese colleague informs me that in Communist China, the laws on moral behavior were more strictly enforced and violations severely punished than in societies that have a religion. Of course these laws and moral compunctions did not apply to the communist leaders. Theists on the other hand emphasize the PRACTICAL applications of their religion- do unto others as a first tenet of prayer, ritual, and religious law as all well-functioning societies (pre- and post-civilization) have repeatedly demonstrated. To me the whole essence of society and social values is to care for other members of that community. And if can Santosh please sit, what Christianity did was preach, practice and die to expand the definition of community to include ALL as EQUAL Children of God. That was a very new and different massage in the fist 100 years AD and continues to be powerful even today.
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gilbert is right. I have not watched the D'Souza/Hitchens debate and have no intention to. But I must report that after the debate the immoral Hitchens (since he is not a Christian) tried to sodomize D'Souza. In keeping with his superior Christian morality, D'Souza turned the other cheek. As I write, all non-Christian nations are committing the following seven deadly sins: lust, wrath, greed, gluttony, pride, envy, sloth. They are committing it several times over just to make sure they are sinful. In fact they would like to add to the seven sins and have started a TOP 10 contest. Submissions can be sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the other hand, the vastly superior Christian countries have no experience of sin. Regards, George
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D;Souza in debate
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:15:19 +0530 From: Frederick [FN] Noronha * ??? [EMAIL PROTECTED] The will to believe (or disbelieve) creates its own evidence. -- George Bernard Shaw, in St Joan Of Arc. /FN Mario observes: As with much that George Bernard Shaw wrote, this makes no sense whatsoever. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but not their own evidence. A socialist is someone who reads Shaw. An anti-socialist is someone who understands Shaw often makes no sense. - adapted from a quote by Ronald Reagan:-))
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Were we not told that some can separate facts and opinions from biases and scientific assumptions? :=)) Kind Regards, GL --- Frederick Noronha wrote: The will to believe (or disbelieve) creates its own evidence. -- George Bernard Shaw - Vivian A. DSouza wrote: Viewing the debate, I am convinced that those of us who favor a certain point of view, will think that the person articulating their own convictions, won the debate. So trying to decide who won or who lost is a pointless exercise.
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- It is a pity some did not get the 'RESOLUTION' of the debate. The first debater was Christopher Hitchens. And he immediately proceeded to make the points to defend the resolution which was the title of his book - How Religion Poisons Everything. One would think that having actually WRITTEN THE BOOK, Hitchens would be in a better position to defend his 'thesis' and the resolution. Why do we just not accept that Hitchens had no convincing facts or data, except for anecdotal examples, to support the resolution of the debate and the catchy title of his book? Of course, it did not help when, Dinesh with recent and well-documented world history from Lenin to Stalin to other communist leaders in Eastern Europe to Mao to Khmer Rouge in Asia, to Cuba in the Americas etc. compared the performance of theists to atheists societies and leaders. Unable to defend the resolution or his book-title (also propounded by many atheists on this forum), some have sought to lay personal blame on Hitchens, or the debate format, or the lack of a defined resolution, or even the 'whiskey' glass. Good try - but here is another chance.:=)) I agree with Santosh about the digression of the debaters. To me, if one is to have a scientific / sensible debate / argument about religion, one should first define the term. The following is the definition of religion as per Wikipedia. A religion is a social institution that includes a set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people, often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. To me the operative term is a a group of people living by a codified norm. Can anyone refer to atheists and others of similar persuasions who live in non-codified social enclaves? Even today none have flocked to Cuba. Yet many Cubans desire to leave Cuba. If atheists despise / repelled by / poisoned by the codification (laws), why have they not created / sought refuge in places where the community norms are NOT explicitly or implicitly codified as social practice patterns? And I do not mean Anjuna beach. Why did societies (including early, pre- and early-civilization) develop an indigenous or exogenous codified system of norms of behavior? If humans are inherently born good / moral (as per atheists) why do ALL of today's societies have zillions of self-created (civil and criminal) laws, rules, regulations? Or does not the universal existence of these written codes reflect and is aimed to balance the weakness and free-will of humans? Hitchens and Goanet atheists recite the (supposed) ills of religion - slave trade, apartheid, racial segregation and caste practices. Yet, the practitioners of these practices relied on their human instincts of greed and power (yes, often using the name of religion); and actually contradict Hitchens' premise - humans are born moral and religion poisons them. Yet Hitch / Selma's knowledge conveniently fail to point out that it was individuals and their followers with an even greater understanding of their own true religion, that fought to end the above practices - Quakers, Bishop Tutu, Martin Luther King, Mohandas Gandhi respectively. Atheists make 'religion' a THEORETICAL debate as Santosh so well exemplified. The 'organized atheist' societies from which to draw practical experience of atheism are communist societies. Scientist Santosh should know, larger the data-base more definitive / certain are the conclusions. Yet the MORAL performance of the communist societies are rarely referred to by atheists, specially Hitchens, Selma and Santosh. I wonder WHY? My Chinese colleague informs me that in Communist China, the laws on moral behavior were more strictly enforced and violations severely punished than in societies that have a religion. Of course these laws and moral compunctions did not apply to the communist leaders. Theists on the other hand emphasize the PRACTICAL applications of their religion- do unto others as a first tenet of prayer, ritual, and religious law as all well-functioning societies (pre- and post-civilization) have repeatedly demonstrated. To me the whole essence of society and social values is to care for other members of that community. And if can Santosh please sit, what Christianity did was preach, practice and die to expand the definition of
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D;Souza in debate
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Hi Mario, Looks like you're having a relapse! What was the purpose of the following post? What are your credentials to criticise Bernard Shaw? You claim you're an MBA -- that too from some US university. Please lay off literature for your own good! Or have you made it your business to trash anyone who admired the Soviet Union -- dead or alive? And we Goanetters are sick of that quote from that sicko, who happens to be one of your heroes along with Dubya.God save the US of A! Cheers, RKN The will to believe (or disbelieve) creates its own evidence. -- George Bernard Shaw, in St Joan Of Arc. /FN Mario observes: As with much that George Bernard Shaw wrote, this makes no sense whatsoever. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but not their own evidence. A socialist is someone who reads Shaw. An anti-socialist is someone who understands Shaw often makes no sense. - adapted from a quote by Ronald Reagan:-))
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D Souza in debate/to Gilbert
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- St. Mary's Convent High school, Mapusa is staging a play titled Lion King December 1, 2007 - Hanuman Hall, Mapusa to fundraise for a false ceiling for the school hall upgrading the school playground Headmistress Sr. Namika A.C. / Teacher Mrs. Sonia Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yet Hitch / Selma's knowledge conveniently fail to point out that it was individuals and their followers with an even greater understanding of their own true religion, that fought to end the above practices - Quakers, Bishop Tutu, Martin Luther King, Mohandas Gandhi respectively. - Arrey baba, how did Hitch and Selma appear in the same sentence? I assure you I do not have the same amount of knowledge as Hitch. If I did, I'd be writting for Vanity Fair and not on Goanet, where that Bosco simply sarko tapota mujea soddan. Happy thanksgiving. Burp! selma Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: [Goanet] Dinesh D;Souza in debate
The will to believe (or disbelieve) creates its own evidence. -- George Bernard Shaw, in St Joan Of Arc. /FN On 21/11/2007, Vivian A. DSouza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Viewing the debate, I am convinced that those of us who favor a certain point of view, will think that the person articulating their own convictions, won the debate. So trying to decide who won or who lost is a pointless exercise. -- Frederick Noronha http://fn.goa-india.org Ph 0091-832-2409490 12000+ downloadable, sharable hi-res photos http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
