Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 603
This is plainly 20thC American, from my point of view. As someone has already pointed out, the vision of Santa differs from culture to culture. The Nast version is the first that I am aware of, which is influenced by the description given in the Night Before Christmas(as it is now known) Are you aware of the Dover issue that presents a collection of Santas and farther Christmas? This source might be a starting point in creating the view of Santa you are looking for. Kathleen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:36 AM Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 603 Thanks for your responses. I think we're getting somewhere, but let me rephrase my question. What I'm really wondering is, if I wanted to make a costume like this one: http://www.adclassix.com/images54cokesanta.jpg and call it historical, where would I go to document it? Who would have worn something like that in real life? Victorian isn't my period, but I don't recall ever seeing anybody dress like that in my brief studies of that century. Is it a Victorian or 20th Century confabulation of some earlier period? Or is it some kind of 19th Century Dutch costume? Does anyone have any pictures of a real person wearing a similar costume, maybe in some other color or without the fur trim? Nast seems to have dressed him in clothes derived from his own period, though possibly a little fantasized, but did the Coca-Cola artist make up the traditional costume or did he derive it from earlier drawings? Tea Rose P.S. I think I'll go look up that WonderWorker book; thanks for the reference. I know there are all kinds of Santas these days, which is why I don't feel compelled to do the traditional suit, but I'm curious about where the traditional suit came from. == From: Abel, Cynthia [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't think all of Nast's Santa's wore a red outfit, but just about all the images I recall usually show him in a practical winter weather two-piece fur-trimmed suit, suited for a jolly old elf and a stocking cap. If I remember correctly, this Claus was derived more from the slightly Protestanized Dutch Sinter Claaus, than St. Nicholas. A great big very well-fed guy in a cheery and confident color red with grandfatherly white beard and whiskers was just the visual ticket to lift the economically stressed consumer. Amazon.com has Wonderworker: the history of Santa Claus, which has a pic of one of Thomas Nast's Santa's on the cover--with a very present-day politically incorrect pipe between his lips! From: Dawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dovercards.com/_images/0486236609_46_Thomas%2520Nast_Santa%2520at%2520Chimney.jpg This is a Nast Santa, and it looks like he's in longjohns. http://www.sonofthesouth.net/Thomas_Nast/Original_Santa_Claus.jpg Another Nast Santa, from 1865, he's in striped pants, a fur lined jacket with stars on it, and some kind of cap, but it still doesn't look like 1865 fashion. The image is heavily political, the stars and stripes are obviously iconic. http://www.adclassix.com/images54cokesanta.jpg This is a Coca-Cola Santa from 1954... and you're right. What the heck is the suit supposed to be? It's not a 1954 men's fashion, is it? And why red? Dawn From: Kate Pinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1822 -- Clement Moore -- A Visit From Saint Nicholas. This supposedly gave us the first picture of how he was dressed (a picture in words). The newspaper/magazine artists took it from there. Before that, I don't think there was a clear image of him that someone could identify immediately by some specific article of clothing...at least in the US. Kate ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
snip Have you ever read Hunnisett's explanation of the costs asscoiated with making the Ditchley gown for the Elizabeth R series? Why does every production of anything having to do with history have to be perfectly accurate down to the seams? Should the have to go all the way and have reproduction everything? Consider the targeted audience. Most people wouldn't notice any of the detail you speak of. Do your clients? That anyone is producing history films at all is a boon in my mind. If absolute costume accuracy were the criteria, all we would ever see is contemporary films...it would be all that was affordable. Just my two cents Sg snip but seams are the easiest and cheapest thing to get right, no matter how shoestring your budget is princess seams are no cheaper than a period cut (in fact they would be marginally more expensive as they take up more fabric) I can understand things like substituting synthetics for authentic fabrics, so long as it looks OK on film and for any costume that's not going to be seen close up synthetics will probably be fine. But if there were curved seams going over the bust that will throw off the entire silhouette which is blatantly obvious to everyone, admittedly only a small proportion of the viewers will know it's wrong but if the argument that only a small proportion of the viewers will know that it's wrong is the basis for all the decisions then why try for any base in fact if only a few viewers will know they got it wrong. But the viewers who already know the facts are not the ones to be concerned about, it's the people who are learning history from this film who will take it as fact and be wrong. Elizabeth Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Dressing Santa Claus
Sinterklaas is also dressed in red and white. Maby they looked at medieval clothes to make him look old, like he lives forever. And added white fur since he comes from the north?pole. Kahlara wrote: I don't know how accurate this is, but I had always been told that prior to the Moore/Nast (American) idea of St. Nick's appearance, that many countries/ethnic groups had their own version of St. Nicholas or some similar personality (Baba Yaga in Russia?) and each had their own costume based on how they were portrayed in the stories. If I remember correctly, Sinter Claaus wears a bishop's costume, complete with mitre and staff and rides a white horse. Annette M ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] A New Programme
Hi the list, Folowed your thread, but just want to add my 2 cents here even if it is a little painfull to hear! First people dont have the eyes of experts. They dont see that the sleave is curved or not!- period This is the way things are, you just have to realise that. It is only us costume freaks who notice these things!! You should be glad that they bother to send something about Elizabeth at all. Here in Denmark, we have no history, we have 3-4 channels to choose from, and neither of them bothers to tell any history at all. Dont know what have become of us, that we dont bother, tragedy-tragedy Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
Excatly my words... Bjarne - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth In a message dated 9/21/2005 5:17:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What particularly infuriates me, personally, is when something is grossly inaccurate when doing it accurately would _NOT_ have been any more expensive or difficult. And all it would have taken to do it right would be ten minutes' worth of asking around among people who actually do know. * Or the costume designer thinks he's a fashion designer who can make up whatever he wants and then put it on Wolfgang Amadeus Mozartor whomever. A costume designer's job is not the same as a fashion designer's. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] hinged pannier
First all! i am sorry if i misspell pannier, is it panier? You make very interresting points my ladies with this only rare hinged pannier. I have ben thinking that this pair of pannier was the example of how they did, when they needed to be more flexible, and suddently invented the hip panniers. Could it not be an (in between pannier and hip pannier thingy?) You know even if it is the only version, could not be the reason to discharge it. Hip panniers could also be very wide, and not the poor examples found in the patterns of fashion and corsets and crinolines. But this is not to the knolledge of many people. In Denmark we have several examples of wide hip panniers, at the National Museum and also at the Museum of Decoratif Arts. These were much more flexible and could be lifted up under your arms, sitting at tables and getting trough doorways, As time goes by, we shall know much more! Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Gold rush it is§ :-) I like silk the better! - Original Message - From: Deredere Galbraith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century? M... Gold rush? I think they just love the colour of gold. And there is a lot more gold in 16th century dresses than in 18 thcentury dresses. :-) :-D ;-) :-P Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: Why is it that America has such a great market for 18th century reenacters and not so many of 18th century? I have no clues, could anybody enlighten me? Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Oh yes Karen, I think you have a point there, Things in a new country so far from civilisation 3 or 4months away I give up! Its just like i hate another list ia m on called 18th century womens list, and they dont care about fashion at all But i am sure you are righ Good weekend to youIn denmark we say - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century? I think that it depends on where in the US you are. We've got a big country here. In the Eastern/Midwestern part of the US, Revolutionary War re-enactment is relatively big. I got my start with the NorthWest Territory Alliance (NWTA) back in the 1970's when the Bicentennial was happening. 25 years later it's still going strong although I participate only occasionally. There's also a pretty big Voyageur (French traders and explorers associated with canoes) reenactment contingent as well as general 'Fur Trade' reenactment with black powder weapons being their focus. Unlike the European 18th century, much of North America was a frontier so we don't tend to do the beautiful, elegant costumes such as you make, Bjarne. I'm not saying that they didn't exist, but our reeneactments tend to focus on a much rougher segment of the population. Karen Seamstrix -- Cynthia Virtue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: Sorry sorry folks, drinks on me! I ment why so much renaissance fairs and renaissance reenactors and not so many 18th century? The American RenFaires are mostly very fluffy. Lots of flashy clothes, stage magic, selling of pretty things, and not so much history. They make a fair amount of money for the organizers, and the few historic elements are often provided by really dedicated volunteers who get paid nothing, and who are not a big part of the experience for most of the attendees. It's an experience of its own, really, not related to re-enactment. I expect the 18th century is too close in time to be myth'ed up like that and sell well to the general public. cv ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mary de Guise (was: A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabet...
In a message dated 9/21/2005 9:43:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I still can't bring myself to watch the darn thing, even tho I loved seeing the costumes (accurate or otherwise). Yes, some of the gowns are lov-er-ly. The men's stuff is dreadful! I really hate their outfits. However, while we're on the subject of Mary de Guisewhat WAS she wearing? and who did her hair? YUK! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
In a message dated 9/22/2005 10:30:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The American RenFaires are mostly very fluffy. Lots of flashy clothes, stage magic, selling of pretty things, and not so much history. ** Yes the Renn thing is not historical...though of course we over here do have a Renn history. I live in NC where the 1st English colony landedand then disappeared [the Lost Colony]. Sir Walter Raleigh's little adventure, which is why the capital of NC is named Raleigh. And there are tons of Colonial towns and battlefields on the East Coast because of the Revolutionary War so there is actually more 18th century reenacting than you might think. But that is HISTORY and politics...Founding Fathers and allso naturally it is kinda rejected by American culture because you might actually learn something! The 19th century on the other hand... Whoa! The Civil War [in the south east]and the Gold Rush [out west] are extensively coveredeven if it is history. I suspect the Gold Rush is alluring because it embodies that pioneer spirit mixed with greed we Americans seem to revere. The Civil War is practically re-fought every year because there are those in the South still trying to win it :P ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
18th century for us is recent history. :) to get in touch with our roots, we have to go back to the Old World. arlys in oregon, where the first town was founded around 1860 or so On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:18:21 +0200 Bjarne og Leif Drews [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sorry sorry folks, drinks on me! I ment why so much renaissance fairs and renaissance reenactors and not so many 18th century? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] RE: why renaissance and not 18th century?
There is an interesting twist here that hasn't been mentioned yet. Bjarne asked why the Renaissance and not the 18th century, and the answers have all been about renn fairs. There are other groups that do renaissance (particularly if we expand that to the pseudo-renn fantasy thingie) than just the renn fair folks. There are a large number of SCA people (some of whom are quite serious), for instance. I am assuming that we are meaning 16th century for renaissance even though Renaissance actually covers a huge amount of mutually conflicting eras and regions, starting in 13th century Italy. There are a lot of other late 16th century groups, like the trained bands and whatnot. We even have English Civil War folk, which moves us well into the 17th century. Thats without going into the Medieval and fantasy medieval people or earlier. In the 18th century, there are a lot of American Revolution and French and Indian War re-enactors on the east coast. But because there were so few of those things that took place west of the Appalachians, the rest of the country has to look at other things if we want to re-enact. American Civil War, not my thing personally, but its good for a lot of folks but here in Oklahoma, we only have two civil war battles that we can re-enact locally (well one battle and a minor skirmish). That leaves Buckskinning (which does seem to stretch back into the late 18th century), or a lot of Old West sorts of things. We have a lot of that going on around here (and some of it is excellent), but not everyone really wants to do that sort of history. Particularly since not all of that history is, um, pleasant (for some reason we just dont have a lot of Coronado re-enacting around here or Indian Wars weird )So those people will tend to look back towards a more romantic part of our past and want to go for that. Me, personally, I prefer late 16th century/early 17th to the 18th century because I like the shoes better :) Marc ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] RE: why renaissance and not 18th century?
Marc Carlson wrote: There is an interesting twist here that hasn't been mentioned yet. Bjarne asked why the Renaissance and not the 18th century, and the answers have all been about renn fairs. I ment why so much renaissance fairs and renaissance reenactors and not so many 18th century? I figured he meant why no 18th century done as Ren-Faires, based on his question. So that's what I answered. RenFaires get most of the press. I went to a local Native American Pow-Wow this past weekend. Do any of you do that activity? It was... probably like the early days of the SCA. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent Such virtue hath my pen -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81 I knew this wasn't _my_ pen! --Cynthia Virtue ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
I think we in the U.S. may also have an actual TRADITION of Ren faires, whereas reenactments of our own country's history are a more recent phenomenon. According to James D. Hart's THE POPULAR BOOK: A HISTORY OF AMERICA'S LITERARY TASTE (University of California Press, 1950), the novels of Sir Walter Scott were wildly popular with American readers. They were adapted into plays (Ivanhoe in 1820 and within the next twelve years six more of his novels and two of his poems), and the Gothic settings of his novels influenced architecture and landscape design especially in the American South. According to Hart, Although only four or five of Scott's novels dealth with the Middle Ages, the South thought of him as the romancer of chivalry. When he died the Louisiana Courier asked sadly, 'Who shall now depict the feudal castle--the time worn turret--the feats of warrior knights--the conflicts of the tournaments--the battles against the infidels?'... the Southern patricians enjoyed a kind of juvenile imitation of [these events] in the tournaments they instituted in the 1840s. Nothing quite like their tilting with lances at a suspended! ring was to be found in Scott's pages but the spirit of the contest was his. A South Carolina newspaper announced one as copying 'closely in dresses and arrangements...those that Ivanhoe withnessed'; contestants frequently took such titles as Waverly, Ivanhoe, The Disinherited Knight, and Peveril of the Peak...and the affairs were furbished with Queens of Honour, pseudo-medieval costume, and all the other trappings of romance identified with a Scott tourneyScott was influential because his fiction was in accord with the region's general attitude of mind And since the medieval world was heavily fantasized in Scott's novels, it's easy to see how those tournaments would be celebrations of Days of Yore rather than historical reenactments! I suspect that Americans in general secretly wish for the trappings of royalty even if they don't want an actual king! We do have some wonderful reenactment groups and places (in the East, Plimouth Plantation, Colonial Williamsburg, Mystic Seaport, for instance) that do Colonial (1640s to 1770s), Revolutionary, and 19th century, and (to judge from this list) some serious Renaissance groups as well, but the Ren fairs seem to be a different phenomenon altogether, and what Hart has to say suggests that this is the older and deeper attachment. --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer -Original Message- From: Bjarne og Leif Drews [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sep 22, 2005 9:33 AM To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century? Gold rush it is§ :-) I like silk the better! - Original Message - From: Deredere Galbraith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century? M... Gold rush? I think they just love the colour of gold. And there is a lot more gold in 16th century dresses than in 18 thcentury dresses. :-) :-D ;-) :-P Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: Why is it that America has such a great market for 18th century reenacters and not so many of 18th century? I have no clues, could anybody enlighten me? Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
Elizabeth Walpole [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But seams are the easiest and cheapest thing to get right, no matter how shoestring your budget is princess seams are no cheaper than a period cut (in fact they would be marginally more expensive as they take up more fabric) I can understand things like substituting synthetics for authentic fabrics, so long as it looks OK on film and for any costume that's not going to be seen close up synthetics will probably be fine. But if there were curved seams going over the bust that will throw off the entire silhouette... My guess would be that the biggest reason for inaccurate costumes is simply that it's easier for costumers to make something familiar. If their experience is entirely with modern cuts and fitting, those techniques are going to seem easier to them because there's nothing to learn -- whether they are, in fact, easier or not. And if they're in a hurry, or under pressure (as who in the industry isn't...) familiarity may win out. Now mind you, for a historical film, especially one that aspires to accuracy, taking this route qualifies in my book as laziness. But I can see how it could happen, and I'm not completely unsympathetic. I just wish producers would stop claiming accuracy for things that aren't and educational value for things that distort history. One of my costuming friends commented about the film Elizabeth that the film's website actually said that the director _forbid_ the costumers to consult historic sources for costume, because he wanted a fresh vision. The amusing thing, my friend said, is that the director clearly didn't know enough about the period portraits to spot when the costumers _did_ lift something straight out of a well-known historical source :) 0 Chris Laning | [EMAIL PROTECTED] + Davis, California ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Dressing Santa Claus
If you are trying to find an inspirational source for the coca-cola Santa's costume, research frontier clothing and explorer's garb a la Lewis and Clark. Keep in mind however, that the coca-cola Santa's costume is likely to be at least partly due to artistic inspiration and invention. As to Sinter Claaus being dressed in red and white...the local Dutch community has a Sinter Claaus parade every year, with him dressed as I described. Perhaps this is a more modern version, but he has been the same for many years. ?? Annette M -- Sinterklaas is also dressed in red and white. Maby they looked at medieval clothes to make him look old, like he lives forever. And added white fur since he comes from the north?pole. Kahlara wrote: I don't know how accurate this is, but I had always been told that prior to the Moore/Nast (American) idea of St. Nick's appearance, that many countries/ethnic groups had their own version of St. Nicholas or some similar personality (Baba Yaga in Russia?) and each had their own costume based on how they were portrayed in the stories. If I remember correctly, Sinter Claaus wears a bishop's costume, complete with mitre and staff and rides a white horse. Annette M -- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:09:22 -0400 From: Lloyd Mitchell Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 603 This is plainly 20thC American, from my point of view. As someone has already pointed out, the vision of Santa differs from culture to culture. The Nast version is the first that I am aware of, which is influenced by the description given in the Night Before Christmas(as it is now known) Are you aware of the Dover issue that presents a collection of Santas and farther Christmas? This source might be a starting point in creating the view of Santa you are looking for. Kathleen - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:36 AM Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 603 Thanks for your responses. I think we're getting somewhere, but let me rephrase my question. What I'm really wondering is, if I wanted to make a costume like this one: http://www.adclassix.com/images54cokesanta.jpg and call it historical, where would I go to document it? Who would have worn something like that in real life? Victorian isn't my period, but I don't recall ever seeing anybody dress like that in my brief studies of that century. Is it a Victorian or 20th Century confabulation of some earlier period? Or is it some kind of 19th Century Dutch costume? Does anyone have any pictures of a real person wearing a similar costume, maybe in some other color or without the fur trim? Nast seems to have dressed him in clothes derived from his own period, though possibly a little fantasized, but did the Coca-Cola artist make up the traditional costume or did he derive it from earlier drawings? Tea Rose P.S. I think I'll go look up that WonderWorker book; thanks for the reference. I know there are all kinds of Santas these days, which is why I don't feel compelled to do the traditional suit, but I'm curious about where the traditional suit came from. == From: Abel, Cynthia I don't think all of Nast's Santa's wore a red outfit, but just about all the images I recall usually show him in a practical winter weather two-piece fur-trimmed suit, suited for a jolly old elf and a stocking cap. If I remember correctly, this Claus was derived more from the slightly Protestanized Dutch Sinter Claaus, than St. Nicholas. A great big very well-fed guy in a cheery and confident color red with grandfatherly white beard and whiskers was just the visual ticket to lift the economically stressed consumer. Amazon.com has Wonderworker: the history of Santa Claus, which has a pic of one of Thomas Nast's Santa's on the cover--with a very present-day politically incorrect pipe between his lips! From: Dawn http://www.dovercards.com/_images/0486236609_46_Thomas%2520Nast_Santa%2520at%2520Chimney.jpg This is a Nast Santa, and it looks like he's in longjohns. http://www.sonofthesouth.net/Thomas_Nast/Original_Santa_Claus.jpg Another Nast Santa, from 1865, he's in striped pants, a fur lined jacket with stars on it, and some kind of cap, but it still doesn't look like 1865 fashion. The image is heavily political, the stars and stripes are obviously iconic. http://www.adclassix.com/images54cokesanta.jpg This is a Coca-Cola Santa from 1954... and you're right. What the heck is the suit supposed to be? It's not a 1954 men's fashion, is it? And why red? Dawn From: Kate Pinner 1822 -- Clement Moore -- A Visit From Saint Nicholas. This supposedly gave us the first picture of how he was dressed (a picture in words). The newspaper/magazine artists took it from there. Before that, I don't think there was a clear image of him that someone could identify immediately by some specific
Re: [h-cost] RE: why renaissance and not 18th century?
Great question! For me, I think it what I was introduced to first from a costume perspective. From a history perspective, I just find American history to be too new. That being said, there are several of us (here in Phoenix) who have been doing the Renaissance thing who are toying with moving up two or three centuries. I have found that the more complicated the construction, the more I like it..there is plenty of that after the Renaissance, though more of the guess work has been taken out of it. Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Kilcommon Jacket 2 last questions
Thank you everyone that responded (with the same answer too!). Laying it out and embroidering before cutting makes perfect sense now that it has been explained. I don't have a frame that big, but am thinking a quilting hoop - about 22 inside diameter - might do the trick. Another reminder for the costuming historians out there - this is for my wedding and we're going for a look more than accuracy. I will probably be the only one there that knows the degree of accuracy or lack there of, although I do appreciate the historical notes and reminders some of you have sent and will keep them for future reference. Thanks again, Annette M -- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:01:31 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Kilcommon Jacket 2 last questions At 09:10 AM 9/21/2005, you wrote: Thank you to everyone that responded. It was very helpful. One last question on this topic... Wool or Linen? Wool is my suggestion. Lined in linen or cotton. I did buy a nice 'homespun' cotton that has a nice texture and feel and resembles linen, but it will need some type of crisp lining. I have regular interfacing - not the fusible kind - and was thinking of layering that between the cotton and some sort of lining fabric. Certainly not accurate, but I thought it might be a nice look for the wedding. It would depend on how thick and homespun it looks to you. If you like it, then use it. As for interfacing, regular sew-in kind is what I use (I am not fond of how fusibles don't hold up as well), with tailor's hair canvas (if you can find it) or additional regular interfacing added in any stress areas, like a small strip along the front edge and neck, and along the bottom to support the pleats. Make that two questions - we are considering the 'embroidered' embellishments similar to those shown in the woodcuts, but tone on tone. How is this to be done - before assembling the pieces or after the jacket is done? And how to keep the fabric smooth and taut enough to accomplish this so it looks nice? My 'needlework' experiece is limited to what fits in a hoop or on a stretcher. Either can work, although it is easier to do so before the jacket is assembled. First wash and dry your fabric. Make a cartoon (outline of the embroidery) on a copy of the pattern pieces you are going to work, so you know where to place things. Then transfer the cartoon onto the fabric and cut out the fabric with very wide margins (2-3) or as a rectangle (works better). Do not actually cut out the pattern piece yet, things can shrink a little while being embroidered. Put the piece of material in a stretcher (better than a hoop, but a hoop can work), do your embroidery work, take it off the stretcher, lightly wash the fabric if there are transfer marks remaining, dry press on the wrong side with a towel underneath the fabric (so you don't flatten the embroidery), then cut out the pattern piece and make up the jacket. You can also embroidery a lightweight fabric, and add that on as an applique onto the back of the jacket. That is period, and those were called slips by the English. The upper classes would do slips in linen, cut the pieces out, and sew the slips onto velvet. I am not as sure if the Celts did the same, but it would make sense to do so if embroidering onto heavy materials like wool or velvet. Thanks again, Annette M hth, Kimiko Small - Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Subject: [h-cost] Eleanora's Dress
Last year we had discussed the dress of Eleanora of Toledo that was on display in Memphis. I wasn't sure if the link to the picture on the web had been posted, so it is listed below. This picture is much better than the one in the catalog. http://www.wonders.org/masters8.htm The website is wrong. That gown is from Pisa's collection. The Gallerie di Costume (Florence) isnt convinced that it was Eleanora's. Circumstancial, documentary and physical evidence leads the curators to be relatively sure that it is from Eleanor's tailor's workshop. Quite possibly, it belonged to one of Eleanora's ladies in waiting. IIRC, when Eleanora died, 1562 in Pisa, many of her gowns were given to her favorite church there, the convento di San Matteo, where it prob dressed an effigy. No gown recorded in Eleanora's inventories or receipts corresponds to the Pisa gown. As mentioned by another poster, Eleanora's ladies were seen in Siena 1560 all in matching red velvel gowns much like this one. Eleanora's gown, as found in her grave, was white satin, tho' even post restoration, it doesnt look particularly white. The full story is in Moda a Firenza subtitled Lo Stylo di Eleanora di Toledo e la sua Influenza published by the Pitti Palace museum. There is also a publication on the Pisa gown pub'd 2000 post restoration. I have not read it. Has anyone else? --cin Cynthia Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Dressing Santa Claus
Kitty Felton wrote: what is a Nast Santa? Santa drawn by 19th century artist Thomas Nast. He did a whole bunch of drawings of Santa and holiday scenes, among other things, and was quite popular at the time. His drawings still show up on cards and wrapping paper today. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: santa costume
I don't think the question is What did Santa Claus wear?, but rather Is the 20th century Santa costume based on anything historical? And if so, what? Dawn otsisto wrote: http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/santa.asp http://www.kidzworld.com/site/p1557.htm -Original Message- Thanks for your responses. I think we're getting somewhere, but let me rephrase my question. What I'm really wondering is, if I wanted to make a costume like this one: http://www.adclassix.com/images54cokesanta.jpg and call it historical, where would I go to document it? Who would have worn something like that in real life? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Mary de Guise (was: A New Programme to watch out for-Elizabet...
Costume designers for movies set in historic times may want to be as accurate as possible but face a lot of caveats: The book Hollywood and History by Edward Maeder is an excellent guide to the following 1) Designers are going to choose from sources that look most attractive to the modern eye. Also some designers believe that slavish copying of historic sources is slavish copying--it isn't creative. They are artists, not unimaginative researchers. Personal aside here--I prefer histoically accuracy, but can understand this viewpoint 2) Budget(budget, budget, (especially when it comes to fabric and trims)and time constraints. This often means renting already made costumes(usually for minor and extra characters) 3) What looks good onscreen and what is the director's aesthetic. Films of the 1930's and 40's set in past times are full of what was available and what was attractive in fabrics. Lame, Lurex, and shoulder pads abound. And besides, lighting can't ever be called really accurate--in most historic films and tv presentations, we'd hardly be able to see anything. 4) Keeping the stars' images attractive--ie, you want authentic--check out the actors in the background or in minor roles--stars always want to or have to meet the current aesthetic image of what looks attractive. This is especially noticeable in hair and makeup where the correct aesthetic almost always comes through. A sure way of being able to date when a movie was made within a couple of years. Although a sure way to get an Academy and/or other awards is to gain or lose a lot of weight, strip off the makeup, or alter one's very attractive appearance enough to prove one's self a serious actor. 5) What can or cannot be shown onscreen--is there a moral or social code that permits or does not permit, whether historically correct or not, concealing, revealing or emphasizing via costume parts of the human anatomy. Actually, I'm entertained by movies and tv dramatizations set in the past that aren't well done--it is worth a good giggle. Cindy Abel ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Nah, to most Americans the 18th century is the remote past. As for mythed up, you apparently weren't in my grade school American history classes. True and false, we had the larger-than-life Founding Fathers (even a few mothers), history told as stories. Washington and the cherry tree. Washington and Valley Forge. Betsy Ross and the flag. (I knew one of her descendents in high school, named . .. Betsy Ross. And her cousins were named Betsy. The family was still attaching the name to every female infant possible.) Paul Revere and his ride. The Boston Tea Party. In the part of the country I originally came from, everything was named for Washington. Towns, streets, schools, you name it. There was hardly an 18th-century house or inn around that Washington didn't supposedly sleep in. He was Our Father, larger than life. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com It's an experience of its own, really, not related to re-enactment. I expect the 18th century is too close in time to be myth'ed up like that and sell well to the general public. cv ___ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
I actually don't understand it either. True, most of the current US was, in the 18th century, not a place for silks and satins. But, as people are commenting, the SCA does all kinds of eras and places remote from US history. So, why not have more groups that do the fancy 18th century, even in parts of the US where that part of history didn't happen to speak of? Granted, there won't be the existing organizations, the historic houses and such, to build it around. But the SCA has done very well in the absence of medieval castles . . . . Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: Why is it that America has such a great market for 18th century reenacters and not so many of 18th century? I have no clues, could anybody enlighten me? Bjarne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] My upcoming lecture schedule
A number of you have asked me to keep you updated on my lecture appearances. I have two trips upcoming. Sat., Nov. 18, St. Cloud, Minnesota: Clothier's Seminar North. Lots of classes; I'll be doing four lectures. They're listed on the website, here: http://www.geocities.com/ursulagoddess/CSNorth_main.html Sat., March 25, 2006, Portland, Oregon: Lecture day. This will be similar to the one I did in Seattle a couple of years ago. I'll be doing my usual five-lecture marathon; I'm not sure which talks they'll choose yet, but probably some of the same and one or two new ones. Although both of these events are SCA-sponsored, I believe anyone will be welcome to go. The St. Cloud seminar may require that all participants wear an approximation of medieval costume (and I know that many people will be showing off their clothing there). --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Mary of Guise
Oh, that was a fun part. And how about when Elizabeth was shot at while in her boat on a party on the river, and no one bothered to look for who did it? As a Catholic, of course I was bemused by the very idea of Elizabeth wearing white makeup and deciding never to marry in order to give England a new Virgin Mary -- surrounded by weeping serving maids, no less! But the very best part, IMHO: THE POISONED DRESS. That movie had so little to do with reality that the fun part was finding what was really true! But the people who made it had no business touting its accuracy. I agree with everyone else who said that was the real problem, and it's a pretty big problem. Gail Finke ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Bjarne, I'm on the 18cWoman list and we are interested and do talk about fashion, as well as many other topics. If you hate it, then unsubscribe. Oh yes Karen, I think you have a point there, Things in a new country so far from civilisation 3 or 4months away I give up! Its just like i hate another list ia m on called 18th century womens list, and they dont care about fashion at all But i am sure you are righ Good weekend to youIn denmark we say ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Santa
Twas the night before Christmas was written by a Pastor trying to cheer his children with a story. He started with St. Nicholas but the pastor is said to have lightened the character up a bit as St. Nicholas was considered a bit solemn in character. It is said that the sleigh idea came from the pastor seeing the German people in winter, riding in sleighs. To make the story more magical, added reindeer instead of horses. Perhaps you might want to look into the traditional costume of the ghost of Christmas past. He wears a green, wht fur trimmed robe that is similar in design to Santa's jacket. De -Original Message- This is plainly 20thC American, from my point of view. As someone has already pointed out, the vision of Santa differs from culture to culture. The Nast version is the first that I am aware of, which is influenced by the description given in the Night Before Christmas(as it is now known) Are you aware of the Dover issue that presents a collection of Santas and farther Christmas? This source might be a starting point in creating the view of Santa you are looking for. Kathleen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:36 AM Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 603 Thanks for your responses. I think we're getting somewhere, but let me rephrase my question. What I'm really wondering is, if I wanted to make a costume like this one: http://www.adclassix.com/images54cokesanta.jpg and call it historical, where would I go to document it? Who would have worn something like that in real life? Victorian isn't my period, but I don't recall ever seeing anybody dress like that in my brief studies of that century. Is it a Victorian or 20th Century confabulation of some earlier period? Or is it some kind of 19th Century Dutch costume? Does anyone have any pictures of a real person wearing a similar costume, maybe in some other color or without the fur trim? Nast seems to have dressed him in clothes derived from his own period, though possibly a little fantasized, but did the Coca-Cola artist make up the traditional costume or did he derive it from earlier drawings? Tea Rose P.S. I think I'll go look up that WonderWorker book; thanks for the reference. I know there are all kinds of Santas these days, which is why I don't feel compelled to do the traditional suit, but I'm curious about where the traditional suit came from. == From: Abel, Cynthia [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't think all of Nast's Santa's wore a red outfit, but just about all the images I recall usually show him in a practical winter weather two-piece fur-trimmed suit, suited for a jolly old elf and a stocking cap. If I remember correctly, this Claus was derived more from the slightly Protestanized Dutch Sinter Claaus, than St. Nicholas. A great big very well-fed guy in a cheery and confident color red with grandfatherly white beard and whiskers was just the visual ticket to lift the economically stressed consumer. Amazon.com has Wonderworker: the history of Santa Claus, which has a pic of one of Thomas Nast's Santa's on the cover--with a very present-day politically incorrect pipe between his lips! From: Dawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dovercards.com/_images/0486236609_46_Thomas%2520Nast_Santa%2520at %2520Chimney.jpg This is a Nast Santa, and it looks like he's in longjohns. http://www.sonofthesouth.net/Thomas_Nast/Original_Santa_Claus.jpg Another Nast Santa, from 1865, he's in striped pants, a fur lined jacket with stars on it, and some kind of cap, but it still doesn't look like 1865 fashion. The image is heavily political, the stars and stripes are obviously iconic. http://www.adclassix.com/images54cokesanta.jpg This is a Coca-Cola Santa from 1954... and you're right. What the heck is the suit supposed to be? It's not a 1954 men's fashion, is it? And why red? Dawn From: Kate Pinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1822 -- Clement Moore -- A Visit From Saint Nicholas. This supposedly gave us the first picture of how he was dressed (a picture in words). The newspaper/magazine artists took it from there. Before that, I don't think there was a clear image of him that someone could identify immediately by some specific article of clothing...at least in the US. Kate ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
playing in period societies? Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Personally, I play in the SCA because I can dress up alot... What I'd prefer to do is to play dress up for several periods, and (I'm sorry) for brevity let's just say from 1650 through 1900. I love each of the different fashions that evolved and exploring each development and their fabrics, textiles, accessories and social graces would be exquisite. If there are 'Societies' in the USA (Seattle, Washington area) that I could begin playing in I'd love to know about them. Or, if not, if there's a group that focuses on the Irish/Celtic/Welsh (I think they are all different and distinct groups) history, language and costuming, I'd also love to know about them, too. Elena/Gia Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: Sorry sorry folks, drinks on me! I ment why so much renaissance fairs and renaissance reenactors and not so many 18th century? The American RenFaires are mostly very fluffy. Lots of flashy clothes, stage magic, selling of pretty things, and not so much history. They make a fair amount of money for the organizers, and the few historic elements are often provided by really dedicated volunteers who get paid nothing, and who are not a big part of the experience for most of the attendees. It's an experience of its own, really, not related to re-enactment. I expect the 18th century is too close in time to be myth'ed up like that and sell well to the general public. cv ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Bjarne, why not start your own discussion group about the 18th century, focusing on clothes? I'll bet plenty of us here would love to join. Michelle ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
O yeah Chris G. Michelle Plumb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bjarne, why not start your own discussion group about the 18th century, focusing on clothes? I'll bet plenty of us here would love to join. Michelle ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume - Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Eleanora's Dress
Wow, I remember the discussion last year, but not the dress detail below the waist. Interesting. What is the manuscript you speak of Monica? I missed that part. Saragrace ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Lavolta Press wrote: Nah, to most Americans the 18th century is the remote past. As for mythed up, you apparently weren't in my grade school American history classes. Oh, yeah, I've had those, but it's not all fairies and magic dust, bizarre speech patterns, and bosoms. And some of those myths can at least be found to have roots in real events (although, apparently, not the 'Betsy Ross made the flag' one, last I heard.) -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent Such virtue hath my pen -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81 I knew this wasn't _my_ pen! --Cynthia Virtue ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] RE: why renaissance and not 18th century?
From: Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... great myth)--fact is, the myths are a core of their own interest. I think it's a good thing, as otherwise, what is history? A collection of dry facts, arranged as scientifically as possible? Accurate, maybe; emotionally involving, no. Well, maybe not for *most* folks... :) OTOH, I know that in my case, cold, dry objective fact is the goal... Marc ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
The bosoms are for a somewhat older crowd. . . . Some medieval myths, such as King Arthur, probably have some roots in real events. We just don't know for sure what those are. But my point is, we _do_ have American historical myths and they have a powerful effect on Americans. This may not be the body of myth that most affects you emotionally, but it definitely exists, and it's definitely only partly in accordance with historical fact. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com Cynthia Virtue wrote: Lavolta Press wrote: Nah, to most Americans the 18th century is the remote past. As for mythed up, you apparently weren't in my grade school American history classes. Oh, yeah, I've had those, but it's not all fairies and magic dust, bizarre speech patterns, and bosoms. And some of those myths can at least be found to have roots in real events (although, apparently, not the 'Betsy Ross made the flag' one, last I heard.) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] RE: why renaissance and not 18th century?
There is a difference between a goal and a motivation, what leads someone to become interested in history, and partly to stay interested. When I was studying to be a historian, most of the students in a historiography seminar (that is, one that focused primarily on teaching professional historical method, rather than any specific era or topic) confessed (when officially asked) that they were motivated by what our instructor termed romantic notions. The great myths, the love of the romance of the past. Furthermore, the instructor cheerily confessed to it too, and so did many of my other instructors at some point. And, so do I. That doesn't mean that I, or any of those other people, don't enjoy abstract research, or don't believe in finding facts. But the great myths have power. History is full of wonderful stories, true, false, and partly true. This is probably why historians choose history over physics. On the other hand, hard scientists tend to have their own romantic bases, their own myths and beliefs, that motivate them. When asked on a questionnaire what his religion was, my husband replied, that his religion was physics. People aren't machines. They are partly emotionally motivated at all times. As long as you don't allow emotion to triumph over abstract reasoning, there is no problem with the quality of your reasoning. Myths may not be facts, but they are real and valuable. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com Marc Carlson wrote: From: Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... great myth)--fact is, the myths are a core of their own interest. I think it's a good thing, as otherwise, what is history? A collection of dry facts, arranged as scientifically as possible? Accurate, maybe; emotionally involving, no. Well, maybe not for *most* folks... :) OTOH, I know that in my case, cold, dry objective fact is the goal... Marc ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
In a message dated 9/22/2005 1:05:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One of my costuming friends commented about the film Elizabeth that the film's website actually said that the director _forbid_ the costumers to consult historic sources for costume, because he wanted a fresh vision. The amusing thing, my friend said, is that the director clearly didn't know enough about the period portraits to spot when the costumers _did_ lift something straight out of a well-known historical source :) Ignorance is always fun, isn't it? A fresh vision??? Then do a Sci-fi film and leave history to those who like it. Stupid director! Why the producers [who have control] let him get away with this stupid BS idea is beyond me. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Here is another different take on the subject: I think what periods of history that have been chosen by North Americans to re-create have been heavily influenced by movies, popular fiction and television. Take the SCA for example, one of the founding members is a very popular Fantasy writer. Both Ren-faires and the SCA began during a period of Fantasy fiction popularity, so to my mind there is no real surprise that the time periods chosen to re-create are more Medieval in flavour. Also hugely popular is the 'Western'. Western movies, books, TV programs abound, so no real surprise that some folks would love the chance to play Cowboy, ride a horse and wear a 6 shooter. Same to be said of the Civil war. It's all a very romanticised part of local history. As a youngster, I could tell you that guys with swords and armour were from the Middle Ages, King Arthur was cool, I had piles of books of stories about that. There were movies and tv shows too. Tell me there is a group that dresses up and does Medieval things, fantastic, sign me up. Where's my horse and my sword? :-) The TV show Gunsmoke and my Grandpa's Louis L'Amour western novels were responsible for my (obviously shaky) grasp of American Western history. Tell me there is a group that gets to run around outside with tomahawks, black powder guns and horses, sign me up! Ask me anything about the 1700's and I would draw a total blank. There were no tv shows about that. First movie I ever saw on the subject at all was Dangerous Liasons, and the subject matter of the movie wouldn't have been much of an encouragement to find a group to recreate the period. :-) To make a long post short, we start with what we know, then expand as we learn. What drew us to these groups in the first place was a very idealized romantic notion of 'history', whatever we had seen up to that point we got from Pop culture. Now we know better. :-) Sheridan (I also think that some history we are still too close to, my home province of Alberta just celebrated its 100th anniversary of being part of Canada. My family has lived here for just over 90 years. Europe's history always seemed far more interesting to me in comparison, because it's Old.) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] question on data collection/ excel
At 11:34 AM 9/22/2005, you wrote: Greetings, I have been tasked with creating an Excel spreadsheet in order to collect data for a historical study. The tables will need to be exportable to Access. I'm comfortable doing fairly complicated spreadsheets, but want to know if anyone out there has done this before and do they have any suggestions or advice before I go creating away. I have never done anything this complicated before. Many thanks! Althea Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] From my limited experience with spreadsheets, the data may be exportable, but the formatting is not. So make it as simple as possible. Joan Jurancich [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: Sorry sorry folks, drinks on me! I ment why so much renaissance fairs and renaissance reenactors and not so many 18th century? Aside from the fact that I don't know of any 18th century groups near me... I just plain like the clothing from the 16th century better. Not so fond of the 18th century stuff, it just never appealed to me. Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] question on data collection/ excel
Excel and Access work very well together. You can even work directly in your spreadsheet from Access. It sounds like you will not be doing the data manipulation once it is in Access? If not, it would be best to work with the person who is to be sure the fields you establish are what/how they want. It is important to know how things will be categorized/sub-categorized first. That will require what will appear to be duplication from a spreadsheet person's view. I'd be happy to help...I have worked with both extensivley. Sg Althea Turner wrote: Greetings, I have been tasked with creating an Excel spreadsheet in order to collect data for a historical study. The tables will need to be exportable to Access. I'm comfortable doing fairly complicated spreadsheets, but want to know if anyone out there has done this before and do they have any suggestions or advice before I go creating away. I have never done anything this complicated before. Many thanks! Althea Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
I don't think there is a firm dividing line between pop culture, and, well, the rest of our culture. The Great Myths consist of a vast soup of old historical stories; fairy tales; religious myths; cultural dreams/goals; and modern novels, films, and TV shows. It's not like late-night TV versus solid academic historical research. The reason a lot of pop culture resonates with people is that it consciously or unconsciously draws from, or has evolved from, established mythic elements. And I don't think it's like, we should give up, or even can give up, the Great Myths the way kids give up playing with dolls because they're too old. You just need to recognize them for what they are, and also recognize that they may be partly true, that they may contain actual historical facts. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com Shane Sheridan wrote: Here is another different take on the subject: I think what periods of history that have been chosen by North Americans to re-create have been heavily influenced by movies, popular fiction and television. To make a long post short, we start with what we know, then expand as we learn. What drew us to these groups in the first place was a very idealized romantic notion of 'history', whatever we had seen up to that point we got from Pop culture. Now we know better. :-) Sheridan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] the 20th century
All this talk about like one century or another... Now that the 20th century is over, what do you think the big clothing thing will be that defines it? Y'knowwhat quality will it be known for, you think? What garment? I have my own answers but I wonder what others think. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] the 20th century
Without a doubt ... platform sneakers. :D Althea On Sep 22, 2005, at 2:07 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All this talk about like one century or another... Now that the 20th century is over, what do you think the big clothing thing will be that defines it? Y'knowwhat quality will it be known for, you think? What garment? I have my own answers but I wonder what others think. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Althea Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
In a message dated 9/22/2005 5:07:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't think there is a firm dividing line between pop culture, and, well, the rest of our culture. Indeed. But especially today, pop culture is disposable. Real culture endures. And pop culture is a lot...LOT of the time just plain wrong. Look at the notion of the flapper in her fringed dress, stocking rolled down and doing the Charleston . Yes, there's a basis for it but the REAL range of attitudes and clothes [and dances] from the 1920s is much more interesting and better. Even closer to home is the hippy. I saw a bit of Milos Forman's [dreadful] film of Hair recently. The hippies had elements of hippy-dom, but I don't remember seeing any of them dressed quite like that. And the film is all flower power and free love, whereas the real Hairand real hippy movement was very much more: down with the establishment, man...protest...f-you...aggressive. I remember. Pop culture skims the surface. Real culture digs deep. And is always more interesting. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] the 20th century
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now that the 20th century is over, what do you think the big clothing thing will be that defines it? Y'knowwhat quality will it be known for, you think? What garment? Denim jeans would be my vote. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent Such virtue hath my pen -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81 I knew this wasn't _my_ pen! --Cynthia Virtue ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] the 20th century
Unisex clothing, and definitely blue jeans IMO. Sheridan - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 5:07 PM Subject: [h-cost] the 20th century All this talk about like one century or another... Now that the 20th century is over, what do you think the big clothing thing will be that defines it? Y'knowwhat quality will it be known for, you think? What garment? I have my own answers but I wonder what others think. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] the 20th century
On 9/22/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now that the 20th century is over, what do you think the big clothing thing will be that defines it? Y'knowwhat quality will it be known for, you think? What garment? My first guess would be some of the technological changes rather than any particular fashion style. Plastic-based fibers and other synthetics, lycra in everything. Modern chemical dyes - day-glo and neon colors. The complete shift to ready-to-wear clothing. Pants (by which I mean trousers, if you prefer British english) for women being acceptable (and common) is a pretty big shift too. But I can't really put my finger on an iconic style for the century - there's so much variety. Catrijn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] the 20th century
Pants for women? The whole designer/couture thing? Kim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] the 20th century All this talk about like one century or another... Now that the 20th century is over, what do you think the big clothing thing will be that defines it? Y'knowwhat quality will it be known for, you think? What garment? I have my own answers but I wonder what others think. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] the 20th century
Pants for women? And hemlines above the ankle. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Cynthia said, Oh, yeah, I've had those, but it's not all fairies and magic dust, bizarre speech patterns, and bosoms. I've heard eough bizarre speech patterns at 18thC events, and there are definitely bosoms! It seems like for both 18thC and Ren Faires, many people want to show more bosom than was fashionable at the time. Fran said, True, most of the current US was, in the 18th century, not a place for silks and satins. But, as people are commenting, the SCA does all kinds of eras and places remote from US history. So, why not have more groups that do the fancy 18th century, even in parts of the US where that part of history didn't happen to speak of? Granted, there won't be the existing organizations, the historic houses and such, to build it around. But the SCA has done very well in the absence of medieval castles . . . . Isn't that what PEERS does? I'm not on the west coast, but I thought they had balls of various periods, beyond the eras when California was well-populated. There are places in the States where silks satins are appropriate - Williamsburg, Alexandria, Philadelphia and Boston come to mind. For those who could afford it, fashion was no more than a couple months behind London, as long as it takes a ship to cross with the latest Lady's Magazine. As I understand it, there were no masqued balls, really huge court panniers, or the extreme make-up that was seen in Europe. But there are still fine silk gowns and velvet coats, minuets and parties. I know Gadsby's Tavern museum in Alexandria holds a ball every year, sometimes several in a year. Because they want to be open to the museum members, dress is 18th century or 21stC formalwear. There are other events, sometimes private parties and sometimes as part of a larger reenactment, where people dress in very fine clothes. Perhaps it seems like upper class 18thC activities do not exist in the US because people know about them through word of mouth or other reenactments. If it weren't for the Lumieres list (a Yahoo group), I would not know it was happening in Europe, either. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: the 20th century
T-shirts and jeans. After centuries of even peasant and workman's wear being somewhat formal to our taste (think of barbers, printers, and butchers in the late 1800s and early 1900s with white shirts, jackets, and ties), these garments became nearly universal in the west, with all sorts of fancy versions (designer jeans, silk t-shirts with women's suits, etc.). And sweaters (jumpers, for our European friends), which seem to have been sort of regional folk garments in the past. Gail Finke ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
. Indeed. But especially today, pop culture is disposable. Real culture endures. The works of Homer and Shakespeare (if they were even single authors, which is another issue entirely) were pop culture in their day. So was most of what literature students earnestly study, at the time it was first published. What people declare to be high art is not necessarily better. Are Zeus myths really much more complicated or edifying than Superman comics? And also, high art is not necessarily more influential on our culture as a whole. And pop culture is a lot...LOT of the time just plain wrong. Look at the notion of the flapper in her fringed dress, stocking rolled down and doing the Charleston . Yes, there's a basis for it but the REAL range of attitudes and clothes [and dances] from the 1920s is much more interesting and better. What I said was, that the myths we form of (and from) historic periods have a powerful influence on our culture. I also said that real history is considerably more complex; so you and I agree there. But to ignore or despise the effect that these myths have, is to ignore a significant portion of human motivations. Including our own. . Pop culture skims the surface. Real culture digs deep. And is always more interesting. There we disagree, because I think this is an artificial distinction. It's basically a marketing distinction. Like real literature getting reviewed in the _New York Times Book Review_, and trashy--but bestselling--novels getting reviewed in a great many less pretentious venues. Having worked in the book world, I could position lot of novels as either one or the other merely by writing a few paragraphs of back cover copy and sending review copies to a certain group of publications. And definitions evolve. Opera used to be popular entertainment. The high-class spectators got box seats because they were above, therefore out of the line of fire of, people criticizing the performance by throwing things at the actors. Now opera is high art--expensive to attend, and deemed a rather obscure, cultured, taste. Science fiction used to be low art; now it's becoming respectable. But whether high or low art, there are many working scientists who not only say they were inspired to their career paths by reading science fiction, but who are not ashamed to still read it. I'm not saying all novels, or films, or other art forms are equally good in my own estimation. But the fact remains that many people love and get value from things I don't think are good, and from things our current marketing trend has declared pop culture. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] the 20th century
I don't think we'll ever see the whole 20th century defined as one image. After all, we don't see the 19th century that way. We see it in terms of the Empire look, the crinoline look, etc. We've already settled on images for most of the 20th century, except for the most recent decades. We already think of the pigeon-front look, the Titanic look, the flapper look, the 30s Hollywood look, the World War 2 look, the swing 1950s look, the Mod look of the 60s, the Hippie look of the 70s . . . it's just the 80s and 90s where we're still undecided on The Image. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All this talk about like one century or another... Now that the 20th century is over, what do you think the big clothing thing will be that defines it? Y'knowwhat quality will it be known for, you think? What garment? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Isn't that what PEERS does? I'm not on the west coast, but I thought they had balls of various periods, beyond the eras when California was well-populated. Yes, but not every reenactment event is a ball. There are other things people like to do. The Greater Bay Area Costumer's Guild has a range of non-dance events. Neither is ongoing in the sense of one era, though. That is, if you want to dress 18th century you have to wait for the one or two times a year there is an event for it. There are places in the States where silks satins are appropriate - Williamsburg, Alexandria, Philadelphia and Boston come to mind. Yes, but for much of the current US, they weren't. For those who could afford it, fashion was no more than a couple months behind London, as long as it takes a ship to cross with the latest Lady's Magazine. True. Perhaps it seems like upper class 18thC activities do not exist in the US because people know about them through word of mouth or other reenactments. If it weren't for the Lumieres list (a Yahoo group), I would not know it was happening in Europe, either. In California you are more likely to find a Gold Rush event than an 18th-century one. It's not that people (aside from the SCA, which seems to be everywhere) never reenact things that didn't happen in that part of the country. It's just that there are generally a lot fewer such events. Someone who was used to attending 18th-century events on a frequent basis Back East, would find them few and far between in most parts of California. Of course, many people have a taste for reenactment, per se. If there is no group for their favorite era in a place they move to, they just attend the events for the era popular in their new home. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 612
Message: 1 Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:08:36 -0500 From: otsisto Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Dressing Santa Claus To: Historical Costume Baba Yaga is female and was not Russia's version of St. Nick. :) De Which is why I said or some similar personality. :) My understanding is that Baba Yaga was a witch who brought gifts. I'm a bit rusty on the little Russian Folklore I do know, so I don't remember more than that. -Original Message- Kahlara wrote: I don't know how accurate this is, but I had always been told that prior to the Moore/Nast (American) idea of St. Nick's appearance, that many countries/ethnic groups had their own version of St. Nicholas or some similar personality (Baba Yaga in Russia?) and each had their own costume based on how they were portrayed in the stories. If I remember correctly, Sinter Claaus wears a bishop's costume, complete with mitre and staff and rides a white horse. Annette M - Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
In a message dated 9/22/2005 7:06:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The works of Homer and Shakespeare (if they were even single authors, which is another issue entirely) were pop culture in their day. Yes yes yesbut so were a bunch of playwrights and poets, who were probably MORE popular, that we will never [thank goodness] hear of. Time weeds out pop culture for you so only the real culture remains. Remember, Bach was considered old fashion and Euripides lost the play contests. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: Subject: [h-cost] Eleanora's Dress
Hi-- I've read it. The gown was used to dress a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Eleonora was very religious and some of her gowns were used for ecclesiastical stuff after she died. It MIGHT have been from one of the L-I-W, or Eleonora herself. It is unsure. There is a painting of the Ducal entry into Siena that shows Eleonora and her ladies in red as they rode into the city. The figures are tiny, but you can see that they were all garbed similarly. The burial gown was not white. Janet Arnold says it was chartreuse. I could not thell you. Frankly I think it is remarkable that they could do anything with the fragments of the gown, considering the condition it was in after the 1857 exhumation. Ms. Arnold was kind enough to go into detail about the dress and how it was damaged in the grave, in a letter to me in 1992. Regards-- Dame Catriona MacDuff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Cin Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:36 PM To: h-cost Subject: Subject: [h-cost] Eleanora's Dress Last year we had discussed the dress of Eleanora of Toledo that was on display in Memphis. I wasn't sure if the link to the picture on the web had been posted, so it is listed below. This picture is much better than the one in the catalog. http://www.wonders.org/masters8.htm The website is wrong. That gown is from Pisa's collection. The Gallerie di Costume (Florence) isnt convinced that it was Eleanora's. Circumstancial, documentary and physical evidence leads the curators to be relatively sure that it is from Eleanor's tailor's workshop. Quite possibly, it belonged to one of Eleanora's ladies in waiting. IIRC, when Eleanora died, 1562 in Pisa, many of her gowns were given to her favorite church there, the convento di San Matteo, where it prob dressed an effigy. No gown recorded in Eleanora's inventories or receipts corresponds to the Pisa gown. As mentioned by another poster, Eleanora's ladies were seen in Siena 1560 all in matching red velvel gowns much like this one. Eleanora's gown, as found in her grave, was white satin, tho' even post restoration, it doesnt look particularly white. The full story is in Moda a Firenza subtitled Lo Stylo di Eleanora di Toledo e la sua Influenza published by the Pitti Palace museum. There is also a publication on the Pisa gown pub'd 2000 post restoration. I have not read it. Has anyone else? --cin Cynthia Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
I like so many different periods. I especially think the men look HOT in 18th 19th century clothes. What was that Hugh Jackman and Meg Ryan movie? YUM. But for me, it's easier to sew the earlier period costumes. Julie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just plain like the clothing from the 16th century better. Not so fond of the 18th century stuff, it just never appealed to me. Isn't taste interesting? There's really no period I hate, but I LOVE the 18th century...generally of course. Things look different depending on the decade...but the coat [justicorps or frock] waistcoat and pants [breeches] on men are the best. Especially IMHO at the end of the century. The open robe developed for women is a wonderful canvas to try all kinds of decorations on. The conical corset, layered skirts and open necklines look good on just about every type [even large women look great!] and can be very sexy. But I could go on about the 17th century's fabulous hats, wonderful off the shoulder rigid bodices [like in the 1660s] and wigsand of course all those 18th century things I like START in the late 17th century. And of course the 16th century men in leather doublets, short hair and beards look fantastic too. The women look good but not in a very feminine way to me. It's more ceremonial and elegant. Then there's the 19th century. As far as making any of the periods...they all equal out. Different difficulties in each, but just as many. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Eleanora's Dress
It is a very heavily researched historical novel about Cosimo and Eleonora. Dame Catriona MacDuff (Monica Spence) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of WickedFrau Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:54 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Eleanora's Dress Wow, I remember the discussion last year, but not the dress detail below the waist. Interesting. What is the manuscript you speak of Monica? I missed that part. Saragrace ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mary de Guise (was: A New Programme to watch out for-Elizabet...
On Thursday 22 September 2005 1:07 pm, Abel, Cynthia wrote: Costume designers for movies set in historic times may want to be as accurate as possible but face a lot of caveats: The book Hollywood and History by Edward Maeder Yes, it's an excellent book. I got a used copy from a store once for under $3 US and buying it was one of the best decisions I ever made. is an excellent guide to the following 1) Designers are going to choose from sources that look most attractive to the modern eye. Also some designers believe that slavish copying of historic sources is slavish copying--it isn't creative. They are artists, not unimaginative researchers. Personal aside here--I prefer histoically accuracy, but can understand this viewpoint. I can understand the viewpoint, but in my opinion any designer who doesn't think that it's possible to design creative costumes in a period-appropriate style doesn't know enough about the costume of the period. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] As a general rule, if end users want to smash something repeatedly with a sledgehammer, that's a sign of bad UI.--Bram Cohen ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
On Thursday 22 September 2005 4:29 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 9/22/2005 1:05:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One of my costuming friends commented about the film Elizabeth that the film's website actually said that the director _forbid_ the costumers to consult historic sources for costume, because he wanted a fresh vision. The amusing thing, my friend said, is that the director clearly didn't know enough about the period portraits to spot when the costumers _did_ lift something straight out of a well-known historical source :) That's interesting--and sad too. But it certainly explains what I found to be so strange about the movie. I was puzzled by the fact that some of the gowns were quite historical in design (though not necessarily period for the late 1550s, when Elizabeth actually first took the throne) while others were only historically inspired, and still others looked like bad, distant imitations of historical designs. Your friend's comment explains the phenomenon quite well. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] As a general rule, if end users want to smash something repeatedly with a sledgehammer, that's a sign of bad UI.--Bram Cohen ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] the 20th century
All this talk about like one century or another... Now that the 20th century is over, what do you think the big clothing thing will be that defines it? Y'knowwhat quality will it be known for, you think? What garment? I have my own answers but I wonder what others think. Hmmm, I notice you didnt ask for a defining garment or style particularly. So, I'll answer from the POV that thing equates to fashion trend. With not much thought, two things persisting most of the century leapt to mind: 1. Nekkid ankles on women. It's the shocking change that lasted pretty much all century, for all occasions casual formal. Only occasional maxi-skirts fads, formalwear and evening wear doing the long thing. 2. The other big change is that casual clothing is no longer the inverse of power wealth. Said another way, there is no longer a requirement to Dress to Impress at every opportunity. As a case in point, the business suit here in Silicon Valley is rarely seen on any but real estate agents, bankers and people pitching to VCs. The suit is the marker of service supplication, not prestige. --cin Cynthia Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Julie wrote: What was that Hugh Jackman and Meg Ryan movie? YUM. Kate Leopold. I second the YUM. -Helen/Aidan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Isn't that what PEERS does? I'm not on the west coast, but I thought they had balls of various periods, beyond the eras when California was well-populated. PEERS is a dance group with a costume addiction. grin PEERS doesnt stick with history or California either. There have been Gilbert and Sullivan Balls, Shanghai Swing Ball, The Black Ops Ball, Vampyres, Romeo Julliet (any RJ from any production strongly encouraged... I did West Side Story). Kathleen commented to me once long ago that the best part about the Sci-Fi ball PEERS does every year was the excuse to dance any dance from any place and from any time frame. Six centuries of dances are suddenly fair game. If they call some English or Italian Rennaissance thing the Centari Court Ritual Galliarde it becomes Centari. Aint nuthin wrong with that... but an SF ball isnt much in the way of historical, either. I love the crossover costumers, re-enactors and fandom. Bring on the Victorian Klingons! --cin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] the 20th century
1) Comfort as the defining word, as opposed to display, ostentation, propriety, etc. Yep, stilletos, 3 heels of any kind, miniskirts, pantihose, winkle pickers. All very comfy in my books;) If we are comparing high fashion to high fashion, no way is it more about being comfortable or less austentatious (except in the war years), and regular wear to reagular wear.. well we would certainly find it more comfortable it doesn't mean those we are comparing to would;) 3) a transition from body shaping through foundation garments to body shaping through actually shaping bodies (see Valerie Steele's corset book for more on that) Definitely! Corsets now being worn as outwear and as curiositys. The defining moments in 20thC fashion to my mind? When it became cheaper to buy first hand clothing ready made than make it/have it made. And in some cases cheaper than preworn clothing Pants became acceptable for women to wear nearly all the time. Though there are still some formal occasions where they are frowned upon. So basically the acceptance that women have legs too;) When we changed our bodies to fit the clothes rather than relied on support garments. Though support garments are still around, they are not the usual way to shape ourselves. Well they aren't admitted to;) The tan, though it was still a mark of luxury because you got it doing nothing rather than working in the field all day long;) Almost dependance on man made fibres rather than natural. Fashionable icons are now for the most part those who act or sing. Though there are still a few famous for being famous and thus emulated. Though I suspect there is a different kind of ridicule for them now I'm sure there are a few more. michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.5/110 - Release Date: 22/09/2005 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Eleanora's Dress
Drat, I think I did see this earlier. Is this the thing that isn't published yet? monica spence wrote: It is a very heavily researched historical novel about Cosimo and Eleonora. Dame Catriona MacDuff (Monica Spence) What is the manuscript you speak of Monica? I missed that part. Saragrace ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
My town didn't have Washington sleep in it--but he did have breakfast there once, or so I was told during the Bicentennial (of the revolution). It's even possible, as the town was between actual troup concentrations in larger towns on either side, but don't ask me which; possibly Wethersfield was one. I think Rochambeau all the usual dramatis personae (just the personal staff, but still) surrounding Washington were also supposed to have been there. Truth? I know I heard some things from the whole cloth on that tour of Worthington Ridge, which is where my town was founded. fwiw Ann in CT --- Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nah, to most Americans the 18th century is the remote past. As for mythed up, you apparently weren't in my grade school American history classes. True and false, we had the larger-than-life Founding Fathers (even a few mothers), history told as stories. There was hardly an 18th-century house or inn around that Washington didn't supposedly sleep in. He was Our Father, larger than life. Fran __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] the 20th century
Pants, especially pants on women. Possibly blue jeans. -- Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Cin [EMAIL PROTECTED] All this talk about like one century or another... Now that the 20th century is over, what do you think the big clothing thing will be that defines it? Y'knowwhat quality will it be known for, you think? What garment? I have my own answers but I wonder what others think. Hmmm, I notice you didnt ask for a defining garment or style particularly. So, I'll answer from the POV that thing equates to fashion trend. With not much thought, two things persisting most of the century leapt to mind: 1. Nekkid ankles on women. It's the shocking change that lasted pretty much all century, for all occasions casual formal. Only occasional maxi-skirts fads, formalwear and evening wear doing the long thing. 2. The other big change is that casual clothing is no longer the inverse of power wealth. Said another way, there is no longer a requirement to Dress to Impress at every opportunity. As a case in point, the business suit here in Silicon Valley is rarely seen on any but real estate agents, bankers and people pitching to VCs. The suit is the marker of service supplication, not prestige. --cin Cynthia Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] the 20th century
So far as silhouette, yes, the short skirt, but the square shoulder was really noticable in most 20th century fashion. Women's shoulders were shown as fairly square and broad from the mid-1910's on, even through Dior's New Look. Men's were fairly squared up by 1900, and never really slumped. Can you tell I Don't have square shoulders? Great figure for the 1830-40's, not too bad for c.1400, but 20th century stuff? fooey. Ann in CT Now that the 20th century is over, what do you think the big clothing thing will be that defines it? __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
- Original Message - From: Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 7:06 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century? There we disagree, because I think this is an artificial distinction. It's basically a marketing distinction. Like real literature getting reviewed in the _New York Times Book Review_, and trashy--but bestselling--novels getting reviewed in a great many less pretentious venues. Having worked in the book world, I could position lot of novels as either one or the other merely by writing a few paragraphs of back cover copy and sending review copies to a certain group of publications. I'd still rather read Pride and Prejudice or The Pickwick Papers than the latest Diana Gabaldon novel. Which I think brings back the point that we are too close to the twentieth century yet to look at it objectively. Pickwick and Oliver Twist were serial novels, hardly considered literature in their time. Shakespeare was just a playwright. But how many other novelists and playwrights from those eras do we still read? What will be the contribution the twentieth century made that will still influence the world a hundred years from now? Four hundred years from now? Will people still be wearing blue jeans? I'm talking culture, not scientific, though science certainly has made a HUGE impact on our culture. Just please tell me not everyone will speak in internet shorthand.. Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
I'd still rather read Pride and Prejudice or The Pickwick Papers than the latest Diana Gabaldon novel. Which I think brings back the point that we are too close to the twentieth century yet to look at it objectively. Pickwick and Oliver Twist were serial novels, hardly considered literature in their time. Shakespeare was just a playwright. But how many other novelists and playwrights from those eras do we still read? It depends on who we are. If you're an English Lit student, or have similar tastes, you read many more Elizabethan poets and playwrights than Shakespeare (the novel was not an established form then) and many more Victorian novelists than Dickens. Most of whom are considered literary greats, but many of whom were just hacking out popular culture that sold when they wrote the stuff. The thing about the 20th century is, that so much more has been published, that it's much harder for the works of any fiction writer to emerge from the sea of other stuff as even existing, let alone great or not. I'll tell you who I think the greatest 20th century writer is so far: Gene Wolfe. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Mary of Guise
At 10:15 AM 9/22/2005, you wrote: As a Catholic, of course I was bemused by the very idea of Elizabeth wearing white makeup and deciding never to marry in order to give England a new Virgin Mary -- surrounded by weeping serving maids, no less! Read _The Cult of Elizabeth_ by Roy Strong (isbn 0-7126-6481-5) That's exactly what Strong suggests was done, since the Catholic faith was no longer the state faith. It's a lot more complicated it would seem than that, but Elizabeth became an icon for her people. It just didn't happen overnight, however. This is taken out of context, I know... but it gives some idea of what the idea was. Eliza the sun, the moon, the pelican, the phoenix, the rainbow -- fragile like a young girl in virgin white, like Spenser's vision of her as Cynthia, 'a crowne of lillies/Upon a virgin brydes adorned head'. (Strong, 54) Kimiko Small The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, safety first instead of duty first, a love of soft living and the get-rich-quick theory of life. This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live unless it is a good place for all of us to live. ~ Teddy Roosevelt. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mary de Guise (was: A New Programme to watch out for -Elizabet...
And was she really a worrior And was she really a female warrior? A female warrior? No, not really. Mary de Guise was a French Catholic Queen-Regent, living and ruling a country (Scotland) that was becoming heavily Protestant (at least in the lowlands). Her biggest enemy was the fire brimstone preacher John Knox, and she had to rule Scotland in the name of her daughter Mary, who became Queen while an infant of 6 days (iirc). If Mary de Guise had battles she had to run, they were run by the men of her nobility. In suppressing the Protestants, a civil war occurred, and Mary was eventually deposed as Regent in 1559. On her death bed in 1560 (don't know how she died, but it was not of poison) she urged both sides to make peace and support her daughter Mary Queen of Scots. Elizabeth I became Queen of England in 1558, and Mary de Guise was deposed in 1559, so there isn't much actual time there for MdG to actually plot anything against QE1. And Mary QoS, at the urging of her father in law, the King of France, actually claimed the throne of England as rightful Catholic heir, vs the bastard Protestant Queen Elizabeth. But that's a whole other kettlefish. There is so much real history of such an interesting nature that making things up, like MdG plotting in wicked fashion, or the poison dress, just seriously detracts from the movie for those of us, like myself, who enjoys historical movies. And we wonder why people that go to Ren-faires have such horrid notions of English history. It's all today's public understands... what's made up in historical movies, and the public takes it as fact. But that's just my opinion. Kimiko Small The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, safety first instead of duty first, a love of soft living and the get-rich-quick theory of life. This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live unless it is a good place for all of us to live. ~ Teddy Roosevelt. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Costume Groups in Seattle (was RE: playing in period societies?)
Bless you! I'll look up the brcg and would love the info on the other group SWIT. I can hardly wait to spread my historical research and costuming wings! Elena/Gia If there are 'Societies' in the USA (Seattle, Washington area) that I could begin playing in I'd love to know about them. *snip* Ask and ye shall receive: www.brcg.org We are a group that studies every aspect of costuming, from extrapolations of the stone age to futuristic fantasy, with a lot of historical fact and folly in between. There is another group, Somewhere in Time, Unlimited, which is more heavily influenced by historical costume after the SCA period, but I don't think they have a web presence. I can find their address if you would like it. The BRCG is the local branch of the International Costumers Guild, while S.I.T.U. was started by local folks in the SCA who wanted more from the later periods. Kate McClure aka StitchWitch Beads? What beads . . . ? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] link: searchable catalogue-TextileMuse
Subject: TextileMuse, the searchable online catalogue of Arthur D. Jenkins Library collections Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:46:09 -0400 From: Sumru Krody [EMAIL PROTECTED] TextileMuse, the searchable online catalogue of Arthur D. Jenkins Library collections, is now accessible via the Textile Museum's Web site (www.textilemuseum.org). To search the online catalogue, visit www.textilemuseum.org/textilemuse.html. The catalogue is also part of the Online Computer Library Center (OCLC), a worldwide library cooperative. TextileMuse provides researchers and the general public with a full catalogue of the Library's collection of materials related to the textile arts =20 The Textile Museum's Arthur D. Jenkins Library is the leading center for textile studies on the East Coast. The holdings of the library include books, serials, scholarly dissertations, pamphlets and auction catalogues, slides and videocassettes relating to the textile arts. The volumes detail the history of rugs, textiles and costume, and include manuals with information about the many techniques for creating, coloring and embellishing textiles and clothing. The Library also maintains a collection of cultural history literature, comprised of anthropology, archaeology, history, religion and travelogues that parallel the Museum's collections in the Middle East, Asia, Africa and the indigenous weaving of the Americas. In addition, the Library has considerable literature in the field of textile conservation, contemporary fiber art and, to a lesser extent, European textiles. The Library also indexes journal articles on textiles, rugs and costumes Sumru Belger Krody Associate Curator Eastern Hemisphere Collections The Textile Museum 2320 S Street, NW Washington, DC 20008-4008 Phone: 202/667 0441 ext. 37 Fax: 202/483 0994 www.textilemuseum.org ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
