[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 5, Issue 403
I am making a suit for a friend, based on the 1630s engravings by Bosse - doublet and breeches... What I can't work out is the waist of the breeches: in Historical Costume in Detail, the development seems to be from points laced through the doublet to the outside, forming decorative bows (which remain after their functional job is gone) to using solid metal hooks on the inside of the doublet. None of this sits with the informal wear shown in Bosse, where the breeches are shown sitting at the natural waist or below the paunch since the doublet is generally worn open from mid-chest. Would they be gathered onto a solid waistband and then buttoned (as the flies were buttoned) or was there a 'drawstring' type option? There's an example in Naomi Tarrant's book/Scottish Natl Costume Museum... 4 nice photos. to explain just how the hooks, WB and CF stiffener work to create the look. The doublet exterior fabric is pretty well shot, so all the interior construction details are visible, including a bit of whale bone vertically at the CF belly. I use a 19th style covered button placket as that's what Himself prefers. There's no requirement in my circle for slavish historicity. Bucknell shows both styles, from the very wide 'bag' breeches to the narrower 'spanish' breeches, as being fastened to the doublet lining - but wouldn't that give (being blunt) the wearer a bit of a wedgy, especially since they are required for fencing? As a former kendo-ista & fencer, I'll like to recommend a fairly close fitting crotch seam. While it sounds counter intuitive, the tighter fit actually allow more freedom of moment in the balestra, pasada sotto, fleche & lunge moves. I'm currently making my 3rd early 17th c suit. I also make the WB rather high, about as high as men's trousers in the 1940s (think Bing Crosby in White Christmas). Modern men dont wear pants up there, but again, it may not be grunge fashion, but it gives great range of motion. Paunch or no paunch, that's where I'd put it for mobility. You might be considering skipping the breeches to doublet connection altogether. I'd recommend maintaining the connection. Connecting the doublet to the breeches WB, whether on not you use the elastic trick, tugs the doublet down makes it hang smoothly over the body. --cin [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 5, Issue 403
Thank you all so much - that is extremely useful and practical help :-) I've got PoF coming from the library so will draft from that, but definitely go for the elastic trick and hey, if it's not authentic enough then it ain't my wedgy or me sewing the hooks and bars back on... Looking forward to getting started and posting the photos eventually, Thanks again, Katherine S ** Message: 3 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 15:35:50 +0100 From: Suzi Clarke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There are good clear patterns in "Cut of Men's Clothes" by Norah Waugh, and in "Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620" by Janet Arnold. You will find the Arnold the most helpful I think. (You can lace the breeches to the doublet on the inside, without the bows showing on the outside, or you can make hooks and bars to join them If your friend is planning on being particularly energetic, a theatre trick worth noting is to sew the hooks on so they hang from a short piece of elastic, sewing them to the doublet, and sew the bars to the breeches - it allows a bit more ease than sewing everything on tight.) Message: 5 Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 16:19:49 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I made a man's civilian suit for myself when I gave up soldiering (to wear when I didn't feel like trailing round in petticoats). I used a borrowed pattern (Merchant Adventurers, I think). The breeches are gathered onto a solid waistband closed with two buttons, and not attached to the doublet (although I know that is correct for the period). I think most of the men in my group wear breeches with a waistband. Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor Message: 6 Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 13:34:02 EDT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes, the elastic trick is good. And, if you want that open doublet look with a bit of shirt showing at the waist, the breeches [hosen, really I guess if worn with a doublet] can be just hooked or laced across the back. It occurred to me you can lace to tie it up with elastic, if no one sees it. If you look at an etching ... _http://www.relewis.com/BosseStudio.html_ (http://www.relewis.com/BosseStudio.html) _http://www.relewis.com/BosseStudio.html_ (http://www.relewis.com/BosseStudio.html) ...you'll see how high the doublet waist is. A bit of shirt showing in front [as in the man seated at the easel] just emphasizes this fashion trait. Just linking them in the back would work for this. You'll also see how full the breeches are in the crotch...and if the rise of the crotch seam is sufficient in the back, no wedgies. I don't know if it's period or not but you could cut the waistband wider [higher] CB than in the front. And split it CB with a lace there like in some 18th century breeches. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1630s suit - breech waist
In a message dated 5/5/2006 10:37:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (You can lace the breeches to the doublet on the inside, without the bows showing on the outside, or you can make hooks and bars to join them If your friend is planning on being particularly energetic, a theatre trick worth noting is to sew the hooks on so they hang from a short piece of elastic, sewing them to the doublet, and sew the bars to the breeches - it allows a bit more ease than sewing everything on tight.) * Yes, the elastic trick is good. And, if you want that open doublet look with a bit of shirt showing at the waist, the breeches [hosen, really I guess if worn with a doublet] can be just hooked or laced across the back. It occurred to me you can lace to tie it up with elastic, if no one sees it. If you look at an etching ... _http://www.relewis.com/BosseStudio.html_ (http://www.relewis.com/BosseStudio.html) _http://www.relewis.com/BosseStudio.html_ (http://www.relewis.com/BosseStudio.html) ...you'll see how high the doublet waist is. A bit of shirt showing in front [as in the man seated at the easel] just emphasizes this fashion trait. Just linking them in the back would work for this. You'll also see how full the breeches are in the crotch...and if the rise of the crotch seam is sufficient in the back, no wedgies. I don't know if it's period or not but you could cut the waistband wider [higher] CB than in the front. And split it CB with a lace there like in some 18th century breeches. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1630s suit - breech waist
I made a man's civilian suit for myself when I gave up soldiering (to wear when I didn't feel like trailing round in petticoats). I used a borrowed pattern (Merchant Adventurers, I think). The breeches are gathered onto a solid waistband closed with two buttons, and not attached to the doublet (although I know that is correct for the period). I think most of the men in my group wear breeches with a waistband. Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] cloak hoods
In a message dated 5/4/2006 12:49:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you are making this way more difficult for yourself than you need to. It's not difficult at all. But, like trying to describe in words how to tie your shoes, it sounds difficult. Trapezoid...long end open...short slanted sides gathered to neck & meeting CBback sewn up a bit then the rest gathered or pleated fan-like...VOILA! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1630s suit - breech waist
At 15:19 05/05/2006, you wrote: Dear all I am making a suit for a friend, based on the 1630s engravings by Bosse - doublet and breeches, since he already has a shirt and another friend is making his collar and cuffs. What I can't work out is the waist of the breeches: in Historical Costume in Detail, the development seems to be from points laced through the doublet to the outside, forming decorative bows (which remain after their functional job is gone) to using solid metal hooks on the inside of the doublet. None of this sits with the informal wear shown in Bosse, where the breeches are shown sitting at the natural waist or below the paunch since the doublet is generally worn open from mid-chest. Would they be gathered onto a solid waistband and then buttoned (as the flies were buttoned) or was there a 'drawstring' type option? Bucknell shows both styles, from the very wide 'bag' breeches to the narrower 'spanish' breeches, as being fastened to the doublet lining - but wouldn't that give (being blunt) the wearer a bit of a wedgy, especially since they are required for fencing? I hope that someone who has worn or made a pair before has some feedback on their comfort - it's not a style I've ever worn myself and I ain't fond of modern trousers either! :-) Thanks again - it's nice to be doing something different and a new type of research.. Katherine S. There are good clear patterns in "Cut of Men's Clothes" by Norah Waugh, and in "Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620" by Janet Arnold. You will find the Arnold the most helpful I think. (You can lace the breeches to the doublet on the inside, without the bows showing on the outside, or you can make hooks and bars to join them If your friend is planning on being particularly energetic, a theatre trick worth noting is to sew the hooks on so they hang from a short piece of elastic, sewing them to the doublet, and sew the bars to the breeches - it allows a bit more ease than sewing everything on tight.) Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] 1630s suit - breech waist
Dear all I am making a suit for a friend, based on the 1630s engravings by Bosse - doublet and breeches, since he already has a shirt and another friend is making his collar and cuffs. What I can't work out is the waist of the breeches: in Historical Costume in Detail, the development seems to be from points laced through the doublet to the outside, forming decorative bows (which remain after their functional job is gone) to using solid metal hooks on the inside of the doublet. None of this sits with the informal wear shown in Bosse, where the breeches are shown sitting at the natural waist or below the paunch since the doublet is generally worn open from mid-chest. Would they be gathered onto a solid waistband and then buttoned (as the flies were buttoned) or was there a 'drawstring' type option? Bucknell shows both styles, from the very wide 'bag' breeches to the narrower 'spanish' breeches, as being fastened to the doublet lining - but wouldn't that give (being blunt) the wearer a bit of a wedgy, especially since they are required for fencing? I hope that someone who has worn or made a pair before has some feedback on their comfort - it's not a style I've ever worn myself and I ain't fond of modern trousers either! :-) Thanks again - it's nice to be doing something different and a new type of research.. Katherine S. "A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort" - Herm Albright ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Plain Weave Silk
All this talk about silk has got me thinking (dangerous, dangerous!) does anyone here have a good source for reasonably priced plain woven silk? I'm looking for shot silk in a medium shirt weight, somewhat crisp. Never having had the pleasure of actually getting my hands on silk taffeta, I don't know if that would be the right weight for the project I have in mind. I do know where I can get this in Toronto, but I don't get to that part of town more than once a year, mail order might be more convenient. :-) Sheridan P. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
shoulderroll site...saragrace.us....was ....RE: [h-cost] Alternatives To Elizabethan Epaulettes
Whoops...I guess I never let anyone know...my site is here: www.saragrace.us Same ole stuff unfortunately...life has been in my way... Sg (aka WickedFrau) -Original Message- http://web.archive.org/web/20050209184231/www.saragrace.net/3A_SHLDR_ROL L_by_sg.htm (the original site has disappeared but fortunately it's still available via web archive) and you can try various ways of decorating it such as faked ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Lancastrian collars, the esses
Ah okay. :) That would still have confused me a bit as the SCA heraldry "powers that be" are also called College of Arms. Though it is King Laurel at Arms that is the head of the CoA. I believe that he knows of them but to what extent I am not sure. I pick up bits and pieces about heraldry from those who study it. My main interest in heraldry when I find the time is heraldic display, which I haven't found time of late as I have been quite busy. Thank you for the url. De -Original Message- For anyone who doesn't know, the College of Arms (my mistake above - not the College of Heralds - wrote that in the middle of the night!) was initiated by Richard lll, I believe in 1485. These are the people who supervise the granting of arms by her Majesty the Queen, and draw up mottoes, coats of arms etc. http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/ Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Lancastrian collars, the esses
At 00:40 05/05/2006, you wrote: My friend is the Kingdom Herald. :) But before he was put in the office he was familiar with European heraldry and in particular English. He has contact with European Heralds and I believe he belongs to the French, "Order of the Holy Spirit" so I trust him on knowing Heraldic stuff modern and medieval. But thank you for the recommendation. De -Original Message- I have always found the College of Heralds very helpful if your friend does not already know about them, although he may have to wait a while for an answer if he e-mails them. I am very lucky as they are not far from where I live, so I can "call in" when I need information. For anyone who doesn't know, the College of Arms (my mistake above - not the College of Heralds - wrote that in the middle of the night!) was initiated by Richard lll, I believe in 1485. These are the people who supervise the granting of arms by her Majesty the Queen, and draw up mottoes, coats of arms etc. http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/ Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
