[h-cost] RE: oval metal spangels
Bjarne, I wouldn't be using the spangles on your suit if I were you; had you noticed these are the type with teeth to pierce the fabric and then the teeth bent over. This will damage your fabric beyond belief, and given the amount of work you're putting into the suit, well, I don't think you'd want it compromised. Regards, Lorina Five Rivers Chapmanry purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage, embroidery supplies; fine, original textile, pen and ink, and watercolour art. Now available: Recipes of a Dumb Housewife, by Lorina Stephens 519-799-5577 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - www.5rivers.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.15/728 - Release Date: 3/20/2007 8:07 AM ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle
Elizabeth, what is the width of your silk? I'm a size 24-26 and 5'10 and can easily make a kyrtle or gown out of 3 yards of fabric, if it's at least 58 wide. Gotta love those simple, no-waste cuts! (There's really no need for a paper pattern for simple gowns like this, in fact they tend to waste fabric imo) I like working in noil. It's very forgiving and comfortable. ::Linda:: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Walpole Subject: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle I've been given just under 4 yards of dark gold silk noil as a gift and the summary is I've got 3 3/4 yds of fabric and I need a 15th century kirtle either with short sleeves do you think it's plausible either with or without piecing, opinions and shared experiences are welcome. Thanks Elizabeth Elizabeth Walpole ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007, Elizabeth Walpole wrote: I'm a size 18-20 in big 3 patterns and 5'10 tall ... For those with more experience in this area would you expect to be able to squeeze a short sleeved 4 panel (bust supporting) kirtle out of about 3 3/4 yd of 45 wide fabric, preferably with minimal piecing. Probably not. I'd suggest you find another use for it rather than drive yourself nuts trying to do this. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007, Elizabeth Walpole wrote: For 3 3/4 yd of 45 wide fabric, particularly in dark gold silk noil, consider this: http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/g/gentiles/orazio/luteplay.html I once did this out of two wool scraps that totaled about 2 1/2 yards (OK, they were 60 inches wide, but you've got much more than that). A bonus: cheap spun silks, similar to noil, would have been used for non-wealthy Italians in this period. And there's your color documented for you right in that painting. I found it useful to line the bodice area, with a single layer of interlining between the lining and outer fabric. I'd suggest a strong linen for the interlining. That gave me plenty of bust support. Easy to make, very comfortable for warm weather. You'll see other views of similar dresses in other paintings by Orazio and Artemesia Gentileschi. My other source of useful views was a cookbook illustrated with Renaissance paintings that included some Italian 16th c. kitchen scenes, which happened to include this picture that De posted the other day: http://festiveattyre.com/research/wkclass/wk1.html ... which has some examples of this sort of dress with tie-on sleeves and bodice trim. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle
On 3/21/07, Elizabeth Walpole [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was planning to use a modified version of Burda 7977 http://preview.tinyurl.com/2jq7jr but it calls for nearly 6 yards and I don't think the changing the sleeves will save me 2 yards of fabric OK I've gone all waffly in this post but the summary is I've got 3 3/4 yds of fabric and I need a 15th century kirtle either with short sleeves do you think it's plausible either with or without piecing, opinions and shared experiences are welcome. Thanks Elizabeth It wouldn't be easy. Playing with fabric layouts in my head, the best I can do still only ends up with a 120 inch hem, minus seam allowances - which would be fine for me, but would probably be pretty minimal on you. Another 1/2 yd or 60 inch wide fabric and I'd say absolutely, go for it, but I think in this case it might be too much work for sub-optimal results. - Catrijn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] RE: oval metal spangels
Dear Lorina, You are quite right about this, but i would bend up the points, and use those to sew them on the fabric. Bjarne - Original Message - From: Five Rivers Chapmanry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:11 AM Subject: [h-cost] RE: oval metal spangels Bjarne, I wouldn't be using the spangles on your suit if I were you; had you noticed these are the type with teeth to pierce the fabric and then the teeth bent over. This will damage your fabric beyond belief, and given the amount of work you're putting into the suit, well, I don't think you'd want it compromised. Regards, Lorina Five Rivers Chapmanry purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage, embroidery supplies; fine, original textile, pen and ink, and watercolour art. Now available: Recipes of a Dumb Housewife, by Lorina Stephens 519-799-5577 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - www.5rivers.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.15/728 - Release Date: 3/20/2007 8:07 AM ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle
Elizabeth Walpole wrote: OK I've gone all waffly in this post but the summary is I've got 3 3/4 yds of fabric and I need a 15th century kirtle either with short sleeves do you think it's plausible either with or without piecing, opinions and shared experiences are welcome. I know I can do it with that yardage, but I'm a 12/14 in pattern sizing. I think it's iffy for you. You'll need to do some careful measuring, and take a look at this site: http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/Tunics/TUNICS.HTML I'm sure you can get the main body piece out of your length, and several gores. Without sleeves, you may be able to get additional gores. Though noil was considered a lesser quality fabric, people still used it, though maybe not in places it would show. However, if you love it, I don't see a problem with using it. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Dyeing pots 350-575 AD?
Hi, all! I have a question that's tangentially relevant to natural dyeing of textiles in the period from 350-575 AD. I know there are many consummate dyers on the list, so maybe somebody here will know! A friend of mine is writing her Master's thesis on ceramic vessels in Norway in the period mentioned, and she has a theory that some of them may have been used to dye small amounts of thread or other textile matter. Specifically for this she's looking at bucket-shaped pottery, probably earthenware burned at temperatures between 650-800 degrees Celsius. An illustration can be found here, it's the one at the bottom right: http://www.ub.uib.no/asp/elpub.asp?PublName=Vestlandskeaar=1?sp=1ep=177pn=119 These vessel are fairly heat resistant as they are tempered with asbestos or soap-stone material. This means they will dispach heat evenly to the content over a long period after being heated. So here's the rub: these vessels, like most ceramics found from the period, are usually fairly small. Apparently cooking pots normally held between 4-8 litres. These bucket-shaped ones in her material range from 0.8 litres to 17 litres, with an average of 1.5 litres. To me this sounds like most of them are too small to dye much in - but then I've never really done much yarn dyeing. So, to the point of my long and winding question: does anybody have any thoughts about or, even better, references to any of the following: - Would these vessels be too small to dye in, or is it likely that they could have been used because larger vessels just weren't that normal? - Any books or serious websites that go into techniques and materials used for dyeing specifically for this period? - There are examples from the period of textiles that would have been yarn dyed, for example the tablet-woven bands from Evebø, Høgom and Snartemo finds. At Snartemo the bands are woven from horsehair (tail hair) which was dyed yellow, white (probably undyed?), red and blue. What dyestuffs would have been used? I would guess weld, madder or kermes, and woad. Does that sound likely? The reason why I ask is that these are all dyestuffs that would require some sort of heating in a Scandinavian climate, which might rule out wooden vessels for dyeing. I suppose you could set a woad fermentation vat without any additional heat, but it might be difficult to get it to work properly. So I guess the question would actually be: does anybody know of dyestuffs that would give these colours _without_ the addition of heat? Um, I think that's all I can think of right now. It's potentially a huge, complex question, I know, but if anybody could point me to any sources or share their own experiences I'd be grateful. :) Ingrid -- This email has been scanned for viruses spam by Domenebutikken - www.domenebutikken.no Denne e-posten er sjekket for virus spam av Domenebutikken - www.domenebutikken.no ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle
There's a kirtle that show up in the second half of the 15th c. It has a scoop neck, laces up the front, has a four-piece bodice with high armscyes, short sleeves (with long sleeves pinned on), a waist seam and a gored skirt set on mostly smoothly. You should be able to that dress out of nearly four yards, especially since noil has no nap and you can nest the pieces for maximum fabric usage. I got one for a size 12 out of just under 3 yds, also 45 wide, but I really enjoy geometry. . Look at The Seven Sacraments and a Deposition by Jan van Eyck and the Gravende altarpiece by Hans Memlng. This dress is in there, seams visible. Good luck with the project, -Helen/Aidan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Backing Spangles
Just back them with a small piece of your fabric (with applied interfacing) the has been cut to a little more that the original shape of the spangle. Lady Margaret 10. Re: RE: oval metal spangels (Bjarne og Leif Drews) Bjarne, I wouldn't be using the spangles on your suit if I were you; had you noticed these are the type with teeth to pierce the fabric and then the teeth bent over. This will damage your fabric beyond belief, and given the amount of work you're putting into the suit, well, I don't think you'd want it compromised. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle
I have you thought of going Florentine, late 1400s? http://festiveattyre.com/research/earlyflor/portfolio.html or Venice? http://www.renaissancewoman.net/realmofvenus/wardrobe/artgallery1.htm -Original Message- OK I've gone all waffly in this post but the summary is I've got 3 3/4 yds of fabric and I need a 15th century kirtle either with short sleeves do you think it's plausible either with or without piecing, opinions and shared experiences are welcome. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Backing Spangles
At 03:33 PM 3/21/2007, you wrote: Just back them with a small piece of your fabric (with applied interfacing) the has been cut to a little more that the original shape of the spangle. Lady Margaret 10. Re: RE: oval metal spangels (Bjarne og Leif Drews) I just got a Be-Dazzler (yes, just like the ones from when I was kid, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth.) I don't plan to use it on costumes, but I can have some fun with bags and jackets and jeans! Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle
I think we're a similar size height, so some of the layouts that I use might help: http://www.formfunction.org/temp/4-gore1.gif http://www.formfunction.org/temp/4-gore2.gif http://www.formfunction.org/temp/4-gore3.gif http://www.formfunction.org/temp/4-gore4.gif http://www.formfunction.org/temp/4-gore5.gif Sorry for the poor image quality; my scanner just did not want to see the grid! These are basically to scale, give or take about an inch, but should not be scaled up exactly or used as patterns. The last is (obviously) not a 4-panel, but I threw it in anyway; it's a mid-late 15thC it's-not-a-princess-seam gown. (SL-sleeve, SLG=sleeve gore, BG=back gore, SG=side gore, FS=front gore; I assumed 30 fabric width for each. 60 garment length is conveniently top-of-the-shoes for me at ~5'10.) All of these are based on draped patterns rather than commercial ones, but they all take under 4 yds of fabric. When (as is usually the case) the gores have one on-grain edge and one bias edge, the on-grain edge should go towards the front. Where not marked otherwise, the top edge is the fold edge. I'm too lazy to hunt the diagrams up now, but when you have fabric twice your desired length or a tad more, you might want to try folding the fabric widthwise rather than lengthwise; you can get a lot more out of it that way. -E cut your cote to fit your cloth House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: detachable sleeves
On Mar 20, 2007, at 8:18 AM, Kirsten Felton wrote: Not like throwing on a garment like we do today was it? it must have taken an hour to get dressed back then. It all depended on who you were and what your station was. Peasants and serfs could dress quickly. A friend of mine played Queen Elizabeth at a renaissance faire. She was visiting a different faire (not as ER), and got into a discussion offstage with the Queen there, who was inordinately proud of being able to get dressed by herself. My friend was a bit appalled by this; for her, the hour or so of being dressed (not getting dressed) was important for her to get in to character each morning. It was just what she needed to detach from her daily jobs of being a museum tour guide and a voice actress. -- andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen - http://www.bovil.com/ Play Internet Argument-Losing Bingo! http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20060405.html ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle
It's completely possible. It will take time, and thought, and I'd suggest drawing the pattern out on paper first, and cutting as many paper pieces as you'll need in cloth. That way you can work it out (lay the cloth on the floor, and lay the pattern pieces on top - trial and error till you get something that works). I'd normally allow around 5m, but it is doable with less, and on occasions where customers have already bought the fabric when they order, I have done it, more than once, with good results. Any less than what you've got and you'd be skimping too much on the fabric. Although I once did one with 3m, I am very good at economical cutting - once made a three piece suit from a two piece (customer supplied) suit length!). Good luck! debs ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle
Not being familiar with this era, would it be correct to leave a slit at the bottom sides,(for ease of walking), if not enough fabric was available for the gores? What about an over gown, the sleeveless kind with overlarge armholes? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:08 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle I think we're a similar size height, so some of the layouts that I use might help: http://www.formfunction.org/temp/4-gore1.gif http://www.formfunction.org/temp/4-gore2.gif http://www.formfunction.org/temp/4-gore3.gif http://www.formfunction.org/temp/4-gore4.gif http://www.formfunction.org/temp/4-gore5.gif Sorry for the poor image quality; my scanner just did not want to see the grid! These are basically to scale, give or take about an inch, but should not be scaled up exactly or used as patterns. The last is (obviously) not a 4-panel, but I threw it in anyway; it's a mid-late 15thC it's-not-a-princess-seam gown. (SL-sleeve, SLG=sleeve gore, BG=back gore, SG=side gore, FS=front gore; I assumed 30 fabric width for each. 60 garment length is conveniently top-of-the-shoes for me at ~5'10.) All of these are based on draped patterns rather than commercial ones, but they all take under 4 yds of fabric. When (as is usually the case) the gores have one on-grain edge and one bias edge, the on-grain edge should go towards the front. Where not marked otherwise, the top edge is the fold edge. I'm too lazy to hunt the diagrams up now, but when you have fabric twice your desired length or a tad more, you might want to try folding the fabric widthwise rather than lengthwise; you can get a lot more out of it that way. -E cut your cote to fit your cloth House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] yardage for short cloak?
Hi, I'm distant from my books and patterns right now and need to work out the yardage required to make a full short cloak out of narrow velveteen. What would you recommend? The cloak needs to go to the hip on a med/large guy. Many thanks, Aylwen ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: robin's suggestion
on 3/21/07 3:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For 3 3/4 yd of 45 wide fabric, particularly in dark gold silk noil, consider this: http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/g/gentiles/orazio/luteplay.html I once did this out of two wool scraps that totaled about 2 1/2 yards (OK, they were 60 inches wide, but you've got much more than that). A bonus: cheap spun silks, similar to noil, would have been used for non-wealthy Italians in this period. And there's your color documented for you right in that painting. I have never noticed the arm/shoulder treatment in that dress before. How does it work, exactly? And why is it like that? It looks as if the front of the bodice has a shoulder strap that connects to a string or cord of some kind attached to the back of the dress. Gail Finke ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: robin's suggestion
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007, Gail Scott Finke wrote: I have never noticed the arm/shoulder treatment in that dress before. How does it work, exactly? And why is it like that? It looks as if the front of the bodice has a shoulder strap that connects to a string or cord of some kind attached to the back of the dress. That pretty much describes it. As far as I can tell, it makes the dress more adjustable -- and would be easier to make without having to fit exactly to the person. I suppose it might also be done as an alteration to fit a later wearer. As it happens, I did mine with a solid strap as seen in some of the other images, but I used this image as the source for some other details in the side lacing and skirt. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle
OK I've gone all waffly in this post but the summary is I've got 3 3/4 yds of fabric and I need a 15th century kirtle either with short sleeves do you think it's plausible either with or without piecing, opinions and shared experiences are welcome. Not the century you're looking at, but I just squeezed an Elizabethan kirtle out of one pair of tab-top drapes that the previous owner of my mother and stepfather's townhome left behind. I didn't measure them before cutting, but I'd guess they were about 6 feet long (not counting the silly-looking fake-smocked band across the top) and maybe 50-60 inches wide. I'm a 22-24 in Margo's patterns for most measurements, though I had to shorten everything (only 5'2). Leah ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle
thanks everyone for your suggestions, I'll have to play around with the layout on paper and see if I can squeeze something useable from the yardage I've got. Elizabeth - Original Message - From: Elizabeth Walpole [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historic Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 5:16 PM Subject: [h-cost] minimum yardage for 14/15th century kirtle I've been given just under 4 yards of dark gold silk noil as a gift and after a long time trying to think what I could do with it (I don't sew modern stuff and I know silk noil is not period for pre 20th century purposes plus the small yardage made it really hard to think of anything) I thought that it might work as a kirtle in the style of 15th century peasants e.g. http://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/june.jpg (as with this small yardage I'll need detachable sleeves). snip E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.169) Database version: 5.06900 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
