RE: [h-cost] Finding shoes?

2007-05-06 Thread Sharon Collier
If you go to:
www.landsend.com
and go to Overstocks, they have "all weather mocs" for about $10 US. If you
need outdoor shoes, these are pretty good. You can dye or spray paint them
if the colors aren't right. They also have other styles that might work.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 7:29 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] Finding shoes?


Dear All

I have to find some cheap shoes online for my sons (aged 6, 11 and  
13) to wear that will "look" Elizabethan upper class. I've looked in  
the stores here but all the slippers have motifs on them. Does anyone  
have any ideas?

Many thanks, Aylwen
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Re: [h-cost] Finding shoes?

2007-05-06 Thread garden

Thanks Bella.

I hadn't thought of these shoes. I've just found a good source http:// 
www.chinadirectstore.com/women_shoes.htm


They have many colours and good prices.

Cheers, Aylwen

On 07/05/2007, at 12:51 PM, Bella wrote:


- Original Message 
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Historical Costume <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, 7 May, 2007 11:59:06 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Finding shoes?


Dear All

I have to find some cheap shoes online for my sons (aged 6, 11 and
13) to wear that will "look" Elizabethan upper class. I've looked in
the stores here but all the slippers have motifs on them. Does anyone
have any ideas?

Many thanks, Aylwen<<<



Hi Aylwen,

if you have a good Chinatown or good Asian stores nearby try  
looking for plain Chinese slippers. Mostly you'll find black  
canvas, but on occasion you may find black velvet ones. I don't  
know if there are other colours available though. Good luck!




Bella
The Realm of Venus
http://realmofvenus.net

Send instant messages to your online friends http:// 
au.messenger.yahoo.com

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Re: [h-cost] Finding shoes?

2007-05-06 Thread Bella
- Original Message 
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Historical Costume <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, 7 May, 2007 11:59:06 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Finding shoes?


Dear All

I have to find some cheap shoes online for my sons (aged 6, 11 and  
13) to wear that will "look" Elizabethan upper class. I've looked in  
the stores here but all the slippers have motifs on them. Does anyone  
have any ideas?

Many thanks, Aylwen<<<



Hi Aylwen,

if you have a good Chinatown or good Asian stores nearby try looking for plain 
Chinese slippers. Mostly you'll find black canvas, but on occasion you may find 
black velvet ones. I don't know if there are other colours available though. 
Good luck!



Bella
The Realm of Venus
http://realmofvenus.net

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
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[h-cost] Finding shoes?

2007-05-06 Thread garden

Dear All

I have to find some cheap shoes online for my sons (aged 6, 11 and  
13) to wear that will "look" Elizabethan upper class. I've looked in  
the stores here but all the slippers have motifs on them. Does anyone  
have any ideas?


Many thanks, Aylwen
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RE: [h-cost]Authentic fabric widths

2007-05-06 Thread KHanson
As far as I've heard, up to 108" in some places, like Italy...

Talia

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Beth and Bob Matney
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:13 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [h-cost]Authentic fabric widths


I'll check Arnold. Thanks to both of you for replying.

I have an image in one of my books of a church in France where the
"yard stick" is carved into the exterior wall.

I do remember that English woolen broadcloth was about 2 yards wide
and that various silks and silk velvets were in the range of 2 feet or less.

I was hoping that someone already had a list of the variations in
width and length online somewhere. Just lazy I guess... another
project for my to-do list! ...eventually it will get done, I promise. 

Take care,
Beth

At 07:19 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote:
>Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 16:35:52 -0700 (PDT)
>From: MaggiRos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>There's some information in the back of the
>Elizabethan Patterns of Fashion (Janet Arnold)
>
>MaggiRos
>--- WickedFrau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I'll go look, but as I recall there were various
> > widths available during
> > these times.  I know for sure that an ell was
> > different lengths in different
> > places at different times.  Some widths were
> > surprisingly wide...like 60
> > inches.  I'll get back to you.

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RE: [h-cost]Authentic fabric widths

2007-05-06 Thread Beth and Bob Matney

I'll check Arnold. Thanks to both of you for replying.

I have an image in one of my books of a church in France where the 
"yard stick" is carved into the exterior wall.


I do remember that English woolen broadcloth was about 2 yards wide 
and that various silks and silk velvets were in the range of 2 feet or less.


I was hoping that someone already had a list of the variations in 
width and length online somewhere. Just lazy I guess... another 
project for my to-do list! ...eventually it will get done, I promise. 


Take care,
Beth

At 07:19 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote:

Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 16:35:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: MaggiRos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

There's some information in the back of the
Elizabethan Patterns of Fashion (Janet Arnold)

MaggiRos
--- WickedFrau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'll go look, but as I recall there were various
> widths available during
> these times.  I know for sure that an ell was
> different lengths in different
> places at different times.  Some widths were
> surprisingly wide...like 60
> inches.  I'll get back to you.


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Re: [h-cost] pleated trim

2007-05-06 Thread Catherine Olanich Raymond
On Sunday 06 May 2007, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:
> Gosh, i really have putten myself to work with all that pleating for the
> dress. Spended 2 days to make trim, and i have not made all of it yeat.
> I have handstitched all the gold trim to the fabric strips, and it pays to
> do so because it looks much better...

Yes, it does.  The final gown will be stunning!




-- 
Cathy Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

"You've got to have the proper amount of disrespect for what you do."  
-- George Mabry

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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Lynn Roth
I have a question regarding Blackwork.  How do you embroider on a cuff?  If you 
make a chemise and want to do blackwork on a cuff whats the best wa y to do it? 
 Lynn

Bonnie Booker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Blackwork is my thing. I taught it 
back at the Known World Art/Sci
Symposium in Orlando where you taught the Gothic fitted gown a few
years ago. It is more correctly known as "monochrome embroidery" and
was mentioned by Chaucer in Canterbury Tales. Chaucer mentions her
collar with blackwork inside and outside. It was also sited in Viking
Embroidery. There technically are no limits to stitches used. However,
what most people think of is the 16th century designs made popular by
the Holbein paintings, therefore the Hobein stitch.

To see if something could have been done doublesided take graph paper
and follow the design with a pencil. If you can do it, even with
drawing back over the design with the pencil without lifting the
pencil off the paper it can be done double sided. Look for designs on
artifacts that can be done this way. Then check with the museums to
see if they can tell you if it is done that way. That is the best I
can offer you. I work mostly with duplicating designs.
>
> I am not an embroiderer, and my knowledge of medeival embroidery is
> skeletal -- enough to recognize situations in which it occurs, and to know
> when to go to others with a question.
>
> This is one of those times. I'm talking with another researcher who's
> working with a text reference to embroidery. One possible interpretation
> of the reference would be that it describes embroidery that appears on
> both the inside and outside of the fabric. To me, that sounds like
> something on the line of blackwork, designed to be neat and finished
> looking on both the right and "wrong" side, and thus suited to things like
> cuff and collar edges that might be turned out.
>
> So, questions:
>
> 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork?
> Or any other kind of historic embroidery style?
>

Of one kind of border designs usually used on undergarments and tunic edges.


> 2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern
> examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a
> technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in
> different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in
> particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about
> 1400.
>

Many, with many different stitches, in many different countries,
including Persia.


> 3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use
> of such a "two right sides" technique to a medieval artifact?

Not "two right sides" but the back side looks as good as the front.


> Ultimately my friend would like to have a citation that shows the use of
> such inside/outside embroidery from around 1400. Doesn't have to be
> blackwork.
>
> Failing that, it would be helpful to have a citation of such a technique
> from a later period, even if it's not c. 1400.
-- 
Aspasia Moonwind
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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Carmen Beaudry



I may have missed something, I just did a cursory look (and my copy is
titled "The ARt of Embroidery," but the most common title is
"Pictorial History of Embroidery" or "Das Stieckerwerk"), but ...

Until the 16th century, the only garments in Schuette are Ecclestical
(Copes, Dalmaticas, Chasubles, Orphreys, etc.) and they're not
designed to be reversible.  I can't say none of the 16th century
garments are designed to be seen on both sides, but none of them look
like it, and none of them are chemises/shifts/shirts -- they're
jackets, night caps, coifs, etc.

susan

It's entirely possible I've got the wrong book in mind, since my copy was 
destroyed several years ago.  I know there's one that has secular 
embroidered garments way earlier than the 16th century.


Melusine 


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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Robin Netherton

On Sun, 6 May 2007, Bonnie Booker wrote:

> Blackwork is my thing. I taught it back at the Known World Art/Sci
> Symposium in Orlando where you taught the Gothic fitted gown a few
> years ago. It is more correctly known as "monochrome embroidery" and
> was mentioned by Chaucer in Canterbury Tales. Chaucer mentions her
> collar with blackwork inside and outside.

I'm aware of this reference -- it comes up a lot in discussions of 14th c.
embroidery -- and I always pictured something like blackwork when I heard
it, as it is black silk embroidery on a white smock, described as being
all around the collar.

But I'm wondering if that's the right interpretation of the following
line, which indicates that the embroidery is "withinne and eek withoute."
I can't think of a better way to read it, but smocks in this period were
not designed to show outside the dress, and did not have necklines that
could be turned outward -- that I know of -- to show the inside. Anyone
have a better reading?

--Robin

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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Susan B. Farmer

Quoting Carmen Beaudry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

*snip*



The book you're looking for is "History of Western Embroidery" by
Shuette. I think I've got that right, if I don't, please someone
correct me.  Good luck trying to find it, though.  It's been out of
print for ages, the copy I owned fell victim to a friend's bad divorce
and was destroyed, and my local library's copy has been stolen.



I may have missed something, I just did a cursory look (and my copy is  
titled "The ARt of Embroidery," but the most common title is  
"Pictorial History of Embroidery" or "Das Stieckerwerk"), but ...


Until the 16th century, the only garments in Schuette are Ecclestical  
(Copes, Dalmaticas, Chasubles, Orphreys, etc.) and they're not  
designed to be reversible.  I can't say none of the 16th century  
garments are designed to be seen on both sides, but none of them look  
like it, and none of them are chemises/shifts/shirts -- they're  
jackets, night caps, coifs, etc.


susan
-
Susan Farmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/

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RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread MaggiRos
Here's one piece I know is reversible. Queen Jane's
cuffs. Unfortunately somewhat later than 1400.

http://www.elizabethancostume.net/blackwork/seymour.html
http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/jane-notes.html

MaggiRos

--- Robin Netherton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On Sat, 5 May 2007, otsisto wrote:
> 

> This is the sort of thing I'm looking for -- I don't
> need a reference to
> blackwork specifically, but rather to any reversible
> front/back technique
> that can be documented to c. 1400. Preferably
> England.
> 
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Re: [h-cost] pleated trim

2007-05-06 Thread Genie Barrett

At 11:57 AM 5/6/2007, you wrote:
Gosh, i really have putten myself to work with all that pleating for 
the dress. Spended 2 days to make trim, and i have not made all of it yeat.
I have handstitched all the gold trim to the fabric strips, and it 
pays to do so because it looks much better...

http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/sofie3.htm

Bjarne



Well, you figured it out.  It looks perfect.

Not that I had any doubt that you WOULD figure it out.  You're good like that.

Can't wait to see the final product.  The gold trim looks very 
elegant, and it all seems to be coming together beautifully, as always.


Maggie

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Re: [h-cost] pleated trim

2007-05-06 Thread Ruth Anne Baumgartner

Bjarne, your patience and your workmanship are both admirable!
--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer

On May 6, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:

Gosh, i really have putten myself to work with all that pleating  
for the dress. Spended 2 days to make trim, and i have not made all  
of it yeat.
I have handstitched all the gold trim to the fabric strips, and it  
pays to do so because it looks much better...

http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/sofie3.htm

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/

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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Chris Laning


On May 5, 2007, at 4:11 PM, Robin Netherton wrote:

1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of  
blackwork?

Or any other kind of historic embroidery style?


Hi, Robin! 

Some, but NOT all, historical blackwork is reversible (same on both  
sides). The idea that ALL blackwork is supposed to be completely  
reversible is an artifact of the 20th century embroidery revival.



2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern
examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a
technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in
different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate  
blackwork in
particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is  
about

1400.


I know there is also a tradition of Japanese silk embroidery that is  
identical on both sides, but I don't know how old that is. And  
probably not relevant :)


3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document  
the use

of such a "two right sides" technique to a medieval artifact?


IIRC, most of the evidence that it existed is from paintings, which  
as we all know, may or may not represent reality accurately.


I'll e-mail you off list with more info



OChris Laning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Davis, California
+ http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com




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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread G.Vinje

On Sun, 06 May 2007 01:11:52 +0200, Robin Netherton
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


This is one of those times. I'm talking with another researcher who's
working with a text reference to embroidery. One possible interpretation
of the reference would be that it describes embroidery that appears on
both the inside and outside of the fabric. To me, that sounds like
something on the line of blackwork, designed to be neat and finished
looking on both the right and "wrong" side, and thus suited to things  
like cuff and collar edges that might be turned out.




It sounds like you are describing darning stitch or weaveseam.
An example of weaveseam embroidery front;
http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/images/vines05.jpg
Back;
http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/images/backside.jpg

For extant examples in books ;
*Traditional Icelandic embroidery, Elsa E. Gudjonson
*Att datera textiler, Margareta Nockert & Göran Possnert (mention of a
13th C norwegian weaveseam embroidery as oldest extant in Norway.Also of a
swedish extant weaveseam embroidery dated between 1320 and 1440. Another
norwegian example is dated between 1440 and 1620).
*Embroideries and samplers from Islamic egypt, marianne Ellis
*Medeltida vävnader och broderier i Sverige, Agnes Brandting and Andreas
Lindholm
*Prydnadssömmar under medeltiden, Anne marie Franzén
*Embroiderers, medieval craftsmen. Kay Staniland (p.63, german 15th C  
towel shown

pattern front and the reverse pattern on the back).

If you need relevant sections translated, let me know.

There are examples of illustrations which shows what might either be
weaveseam embroidery or possibly a woven pattern from the early 15thC.

The stitch was quite popular long before then and there are more than
enough extant examples from the 13th C and onwards.
Gunvor

-
"Jeg har sagt ja og nei og DA får du lov"
Anders (nesten 4 år)
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[h-cost] pleated trim

2007-05-06 Thread Bjarne og Leif Drews
Gosh, i really have putten myself to work with all that pleating for the 
dress. Spended 2 days to make trim, and i have not made all of it yeat.
I have handstitched all the gold trim to the fabric strips, and it pays to 
do so because it looks much better...

http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/sofie3.htm

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 



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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Sue Clemenger
The closest that I can think of, would be this book (one of my faves):
"Embroideries ans Samplers from Islamic Egypt" by Marianne Ellis. (Ashmolean
Museum, University of Oxford, 2001).  ISBN: 1-85444-135-3 (for the paperback
version).
It's an examination of embroidered textiles, most of which (they think) were
used for clothing and light furnishings, and examples range from the Tulunid
period (late 9th century) through the Mamluk period (up to 1517).  There are
a fair number of pieces containing surface embroidery stitches (split
stitch, chain stitch, stem stitch, cross stitch, etc.), but a significant
number of the pieces comprise some form of monochrome
embroidery--double-running stitch, pattern darning, pulled-thread and
drawn-thread work, etc.
There's a rather nice sampler, for instance, which has been carbon-dated to
the 14th century, and which was done in blue silk (and plain linen) threads
on linen, and uses double-running stitches and drawn-thread work.  There's
also a fragment of something they're assuming was part of a towel border,
and it's done in blue silk, using double-running stitch.  (a repeating
pattern of birds, late 14th-early 15th century).  There are also a couple of
pieces clearly meant to be shirts/tunics, but the embroidery is being used
on the sleeves, body, etc., and not so much on collar and cuffs.
It's clearly not an examination of European textiles and embroidery, but the
author does go to some effort to point out stylistic connections between
these bits and later European usage.  (Theory being  that
these Islamic-based styles and techniques spread into Europe on trade
routes.)
--Sue


- Original Message -
From: "Robin Netherton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:02 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery


>
> On Sat, 5 May 2007, Susan B. Farmer wrote:
>
> > There are lots of examples from this period both in English and
> > Italian art where the collar/cuffs are embroidered with the
> > implication that both sides will be seen -- more can be forthcoming if
> > you need additional examples.  I don't know what the earliest such
> > example is, though.
>
> I've sent my contact the images already cited as proof-of-concept for
> Tudor period, and the information posted here that there were stitches
> that could be reversible. That's a good start, but for publication
> purposes she needs a published source on the stitch types for that period
> (as seen in real examples); is there a book that examines historic
> stitching with close regard to period, e.g. not just saying "this stitch
> is medieval" but rather "these stitches appear in X type of artifacts from
> Y time and Z place"?
>
> Holy grail here would be examples of embroidery from c. 1400 clearly meant
> to be viewed on the reverse. Possibly not available, though. Extant pieces
> from 1400 are a lot rarer than from 1550.
>
> But it's not my area so I don't know all the standard sources the way I do
> in my own specialties.
>
> --Robin


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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Robin Netherton

On Sun, 6 May 2007, Sue Clemenger wrote:

> Monochrome embroidery is actually considerably older than the 1400s...

Sue, any insights into embroidery meant to be seen from both sides, as on
cuffs or collars? That's the real issue here -- how early that concept
might apply.

--Robin

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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Bonnie Booker

Blackwork is my thing. I taught it back at the Known World Art/Sci
Symposium in Orlando where you taught the Gothic fitted gown a few
years ago. It is more correctly known as "monochrome embroidery" and
was mentioned by Chaucer in Canterbury Tales. Chaucer mentions her
collar with blackwork inside and outside. It was also sited in Viking
Embroidery. There technically are no limits to stitches used. However,
what most people think of is the 16th century designs made popular by
the Holbein paintings, therefore the Hobein stitch.

To see if something could have been done doublesided take graph paper
and follow the design with a pencil. If you can do it, even with
drawing back over the design with the pencil without lifting the
pencil off the paper it can be done double sided. Look for designs on
artifacts that can be done this way. Then check with the museums to
see if they can tell you if it is done that way. That is the best I
can offer you. I work mostly with duplicating designs.


I am not an embroiderer, and my knowledge of medeival embroidery is
skeletal -- enough to recognize situations in which it occurs, and to know
when to go to others with a question.

This is one of those times. I'm talking with another researcher who's
working with a text reference to embroidery. One possible interpretation
of the reference would be that it describes embroidery that appears on
both the inside and outside of the fabric. To me, that sounds like
something on the line of blackwork, designed to be neat and finished
looking on both the right and "wrong" side, and thus suited to things like
cuff and collar edges that might be turned out.

So, questions:

1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork?
Or any other kind of historic embroidery style?



Of one kind of border designs usually used on undergarments and tunic edges.



2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern
examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a
technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in
different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in
particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about
1400.



Many, with many different stitches, in many different countries,
including Persia.



3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use
of such a "two right sides" technique to a medieval artifact?


Not "two right sides" but the back side looks as good as the front.



Ultimately my friend would like to have a citation that shows the use of
such inside/outside embroidery from around 1400. Doesn't have to be
blackwork.

Failing that, it would be helpful to have a citation of such a technique
from a later period, even if it's not c. 1400.

--
Aspasia Moonwind
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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Cynthia J Ley
> So, questions:
> 
> 1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of 
> blackwork?
> Or any other kind of historic embroidery style?

Some, but not all, blackwork is reversible, and if it is, it is perfectly
suited to cuffs and hankies and napkins where both sides will be seen.

That said, this ability to be reversible for some patterns may be a happy
accident which occurs owing to the combination of the particular pattern
and double running stitch. A happy accident that people kept using.

I look forward to further responses too. I've often wondered about
pre-Tudor blackwork (Spanish work? Blackwork by any other name?) as well.
Thanks for bringing this up Robin! :-)

Arlys
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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Carmen Beaudry



I've sent my contact the images already cited as proof-of-concept for
Tudor period, and the information posted here that there were stitches
that could be reversible. That's a good start, but for publication
purposes she needs a published source on the stitch types for that period
(as seen in real examples); is there a book that examines historic
stitching with close regard to period, e.g. not just saying "this stitch
is medieval" but rather "these stitches appear in X type of artifacts from
Y time and Z place"?

Holy grail here would be examples of embroidery from c. 1400 clearly meant
to be viewed on the reverse. Possibly not available, though. Extant pieces
from 1400 are a lot rarer than from 1550.

But it's not my area so I don't know all the standard sources the way I do
in my own specialties.

--Robin


The book you're looking for is "History of Western Embroidery" by Shuette. 
I think I've got that right, if I don't, please someone correct me.  Good 
luck trying to find it, though.  It's been out of print for ages, the copy I 
owned fell victim to a friend's bad divorce and was destroyed, and my local 
library's copy has been stolen.


Melusine 


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[h-cost] Embroidery on pill box hats?

2007-05-06 Thread Aylwen & John Garden
Dear All

I'm collecting images of embroidered pillbox hats from the Elizabethan era.
If you have any specific links to share, that would be great. I've taken
today off work to get some sewing done and am trying not to spend too much
time on the computer!
Is there any evidence of embroidered flat caps?
My first attempt at a pillbox hat came out too large, so I'm making a
smaller version, with a desire to embroider it this time around.

You can see my first hat at http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/gardens.htm

Many thanks, Aylwen


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Re: [h-cost] Re: Theater vs. Historic-getting OT but can't help myself

2007-05-06 Thread Sylvia Rognstad


On May 4, 2007, at 12:25 AM, Chris Laning wrote:





What I don't think is legitimate is to take half-baked or widely 
criticized ideas (aliens building the pyramids, anyone?) and present 
them as sober historical fact WITHOUT planting plenty of clues that 
you're not _really_ serious. I didn't see "Shakespeare in Love," but 
those who watched it closely tell me that a Stratford-on-Avon souvenir 
mug appeared fairly prominently, early in the film. Nice touch. 





What?!  Aliens didn't build the pyramids?  You must not listen to Coast 
to Coast AM!


Sylrog

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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Cynthia J Ley
Thanks! :-)

Arlys

On Sun, 6 May 2007 10:32:04 -0600 "Sue Clemenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Usually done in a form of long-armed cross stitch, as far as I know.
> --Sue in Montana
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Cynthia J Ley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery
> 
> 
> > > There is a form called Assisi work, uses the same stitches as 
> > > blackwork, but 
> > > was often worked in red, and I believe there's extant examples 
> of 
> > > that from 
> > > the 12th cen. (1100's).  I'll see what I can dig up.
> > > 
> > > Melusine 
> > 
> > It's my understanding that the actual pattern on Assisi (voided) 
> work is
> > done in running stitch (also used in blackwork), but that the 
> filling
> > stitch was cross or some such. Hope someone here fills the void 
> between
> > my ears. ;)
> > 
> > Arlys
> 
> 
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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Sue Clemenger
Usually done in a form of long-armed cross stitch, as far as I know.
--Sue in Montana

- Original Message - 
From: "Cynthia J Ley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery


> > There is a form called Assisi work, uses the same stitches as 
> > blackwork, but 
> > was often worked in red, and I believe there's extant examples of 
> > that from 
> > the 12th cen. (1100's).  I'll see what I can dig up.
> > 
> > Melusine 
> 
> It's my understanding that the actual pattern on Assisi (voided) work is
> done in running stitch (also used in blackwork), but that the filling
> stitch was cross or some such. Hope someone here fills the void between
> my ears. ;)
> 
> Arlys


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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Sue Clemenger
There are actually 16th century portraits out there, in which there are
clearly two *different* patterns on the two sides of a collar.  It's also
obvious, from some of the construction details, that collars had both an
inside layer of fabric and an outer (I'm avoiding saying "always," of
course).  There's a boy's shirt from, I think, the 1540's, currently at
the V&A, which has a small ruffle extending out from the shirt collar.  It's
pretty clear that the shirt-edge of the ruffle is enclosed between two
layers of collar.
I'm guessing that your friend is more likely to find evidence of
reversability in the cuffs and ruffles (applied or integral), than in the
collars.
--Sue
- Original Message -
From: "Robin Netherton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 6:47 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery


>
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Its appearance at cuffs and collars doesn't have any real relevance to
> > the state of the back, as embroidery was done prior to the making up
> > of the garment (usually), so that the back of the work would be
> > unlikely to be seen.
>
> That would certainly be the case for, say, a doublet, but for the cuffs or
> collars of linen chemises, which are not lined, why would the embroidery
> be done in advance, or assumed not to be seen? Chemises in 16th century
> paintings are often shown with blackwork embroidery on cuff edges and
> collars; presumably the insides of the cuffs would be readily visible, and
> collars might be turned out in some cases.
>
> --Robin
>
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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Sue Clemenger
The earliest known *dated* sampler is the Bostocke sampler at the V&A, but
it's not actually the oldest sampler.  There are several in my book
"Embroideries and Samplers from Islamic Egypt," and they *all* significantly
predate the Bostocke sampler.  Which is, nonetheless, one of my favorite
pieces in the world ...I pretty much expected beams of light and choirs
of angels, when I actually found that sampler in the textile rooms at the
V&A.  But then, I'm an embroidery geek of long standing!
--Sue in Montana

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 6:36 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery


>
>
>
> Although with some stitches you can't help making the back nearly as neat
as
> the front (classics indeed being blackwork and tent stitch, etc), I'm not
> aware of any medieval embroidery being made this way on purpose.
>
> And whether styles like blackwork or asissi work, or several others, very
> much depends on your geographical context.
>
> Its appearance at cuffs and collars doesn't have any real relevance to the
> state of the back, as embroidery was done prior to the making up of the
garment
>  (usually), so that the back of the work would be unlikely to be seen.
>
> As far as I'm aware the neatness of the back of embroidery dates to the
> beginnings of samplers - and the earliest known one of these is late 16th
century
> (I think - the one in the v&a textiles room).
>
> Both sides same embroidery, where the intention of the work is to have
both
> sides looking exactly the same is 19th century thing (possibly late
18th??),
> that came about for use on things like military standards.  It's also
> incredibly difficult to do, and one of the banes of my life!!:o)
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Sue Clemenger
Monochrome embroidery is actually considerably older than the 1400s.  There
are surviving Islamic examples from long before that date.  The earliest
European reference to it, that I'm aware of, is a brief description in
Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, in which a woman's shift is described as having
black embroidery on it, but that reference predates known European fragments
by quite a while.
Most folks tend to call this type of embroidery "blackwork," out of habit,
or from the association of this style with the elaborate, usually black,
embroideries popular in certain parts of 16th century Europe.  It does,
however, show up in a number of other colors--blues, reds, gold, green,
pink.  A more accurate term for it is "monochrome" embroidery, since it's
done with a single color.  I look at something like Assisi work as a cousin
;o), and there are other forms of embroidery like German whitework, and some
of the embroidery done on German and Italian shirts (over the areas that are
gathered or "smocked," especially, that are also related.
--Sue in Montana, *quite* definitely a monochrome/counted thread embroidery
geek

- Original Message -
From: "Susan B. Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery


> To my knowledge -- and blackwork isn't my "thing" -- blackwork is
> later than 1400.  There are more knowledgeable folks on this list than
> I in that respect.


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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Sue Clemenger
We're out here, but at least one of us (me) was completely involved in
helping with a local SCA event yesterday, and just now getting caught up in
the flood of emails! ;o)
--Sue
- Original Message -
From: "Robin Netherton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 7:56 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery


> And here I thought this list would be full of people who who were
> obsessive about embroidery history who would have this stuff at their
> fingertips. I have no clue what sources are standard on stitch types,
> existing artifacts, etc.


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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Cynthia J Ley
> There is a form called Assisi work, uses the same stitches as 
> blackwork, but 
> was often worked in red, and I believe there's extant examples of 
> that from 
> the 12th cen. (1100's).  I'll see what I can dig up.
> 
> Melusine 

It's my understanding that the actual pattern on Assisi (voided) work is
done in running stitch (also used in blackwork), but that the filling
stitch was cross or some such. Hope someone here fills the void between
my ears. ;)

Arlys
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Re: [h-cost] Medieval embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Cynthia J Ley
In blackwork, double running is the primary stitch, but it's not the
stitch which creates the doublesidedness. It's the actual pattern--i.e.,
how it is executed.

Arlys

On Sat, 5 May 2007 23:02:40 -0500 (CDT) Robin Netherton
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> On Sat, 5 May 2007, Susan B. Farmer wrote:
> 
> > There are lots of examples from this period both in English and
> > Italian art where the collar/cuffs are embroidered with the
> > implication that both sides will be seen -- more can be 
> forthcoming if
> > you need additional examples.  I don't know what the earliest such
> > example is, though.
> 
> I've sent my contact the images already cited as proof-of-concept 
> for
> Tudor period, and the information posted here that there were 
> stitches
> that could be reversible. That's a good start, but for publication
> purposes she needs a published source on the stitch types for that 
> period
> (as seen in real examples); is there a book that examines historic
> stitching with close regard to period, e.g. not just saying "this 
> stitch
> is medieval" but rather "these stitches appear in X type of 
> artifacts from
> Y time and Z place"?
> 
> Holy grail here would be examples of embroidery from c. 1400 clearly 
> meant
> to be viewed on the reverse. Possibly not available, though. Extant 
> pieces
> from 1400 are a lot rarer than from 1550.
> 
> But it's not my area so I don't know all the standard sources the 
> way I do
> in my own specialties.
> 
> --Robin
> 
> 
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[h-cost] Re: Medieval Embroidery

2007-05-06 Thread Kathy Page
I can kinda-sorta help you out with this one.

One of the shirts in the Sicilian Bride collection at the Met is completely 
reversible, done not only in polychrome silks, but gold thread as well. Both 
cuffs and collars are coated in it in good 2 inch bands. These date to ca. 
1500-1600 Sicily. They employ several stitch types, none of which are Assisi or 
Blackwork in nature. Satin stitch is most predominant in the motifs.
As for publishingwait a year or so and see who ends up published first -me 
or the Met. ;-)

I understand that insisting on completely reversible, uber-tidy embroidery 
backs is far more a Victorian convention than Medieval. I've heard this 
statement debated hotly both ways. The Met collection is by no means nasty 
looking on the back, but you can spot the knots if you look for them.

Kathy


It’s never too late to be who you might have been.
-George Eliot
Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. 
http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131


So, questions:

1. Is my memory correct -- is this indeed a characteristic of blackwork?
Or any other kind of historic embroidery style?

2. Is this characteristic actually documentable to any non-modern
examples? (I know it's easy to assume that a standard definition of a
technique must date back forever, but it might be done differently in
different periods.) If so, how early? I mentally associate blackwork in
particular with the Tudor period, but the reference in this case is about
1400.

3. Can anyone point me to a published source that would document the use
of such a "two right sides" technique to a medieval artifact?

Ultimately my friend would like to have a citation that shows the use of
such inside/outside embroidery from around 1400. Doesn't have to be
blackwork.

Failing that, it would be helpful to have a citation of such a technique
from a later period, even if it's not c. 1400.








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Re: [h-cost] Metrosexual???? OT

2007-05-06 Thread Penny Ladnier
Giggling with joy!  You hit a topic that gives me an excuse to take 
a break from grading papers!  YIPPEE!!! Many, many thanks.


I gave birth to the best example of  metrosexual!  He has fit the 
metrosexual description perfectly since he was born in 1976!  My #1 son has 
matched ALL of his clothing since he was 3 y.o. when he started dressing 
himself.  Not only does the shirt and pants have to match but his socks, 
shoes, underwear, belt (with shoes) ties, caps, etc.  My favorite saying 
about him, "He took my matching fashion colors way to seriously when he was 
3 years old."  He even takes this matching to extremes, colors and styles of 
cars have to match and their accessories.  This child also spent too much 
time in front of the mirror.  He makes sure to look at himself and adjust 
hair or clothing everything he passes something that reflects... like 
windows.


He wanted so bad to major in fashion in college, but decided college wasn't 
for him after two years.  But he married a fashion major.  She is as bad as 
him with the color/fashion matching and that their fashions have themes, 
including their "Better Homes and Garden" home.  Theirs and the children 
wardrobes' volume are unreal!  Of course, all their kids' clothing are 
perfectly matched.  Needless to say they are both perfectionist.  Every 
morning she gets up earlier, and finds out what kind of businesses he will 
be visiting that day or business meetings.  She pulls the appropriate 
ensemble for the day.  He has corporate wear, medium-size business and small 
business wear. This breaks down even more by if the business is located in a 
large city, small, or rural.  Even their casual wear is very preppy and very 
organized.  I guess this business dress theory works.  He is one of the top 
five salespeople in a national Fortune 500 business.  My son says that you 
don't go into a small rural business in an expensive dress shirt and  tie. 
They are scared to talk with you.  So you dress the part, a polo shirt and 
Dockers.  He says that the people feel comfortable to talk, if you dress the 
appropriate way for the clients.


My son has the perfect tan year round, waxed eyebrows, and body hair trimmed 
(everywhere visible).  He started taking my coversticks when he was a 
teenager.  He used them to cover zits.  He still uses them.  He and his wife 
have perfect skin, due to visiting spas on business trips.  His wife will 
not go a the trip if there is not a good spa at the hotel/resort.


A couple of months ago, Bazar magazine declared the term metrosexual was 
out, on their "What's In and Out" monthly list.  I guess that was the formal 
declaration.  There is a new term for this type of person, but I can't 
recall it at this moment.


The other day I had a good giggle while driving my teenage daughter and her 
girlfriends around .   They were discussing the types of guys they liked. 
Each one would say the types of guy and why.  Every girl liked a different 
types of guy according to their mode of dress and hairstyle.  After each 
girl said their guy's style, my daughter would say, "Well you would like my 
brother ___ and the type of fashion style." Another girl would say what 
type of guy they liked.  My daughter would say the same thing but with a 
different name.


There was a new girl in the group. She asked, "How many brothers do you 
have?"


My daughter said, "Five and they all have different styles."

The other girls said, "Yes, she really does have five big brothers and they 
all dress differently."


My daughter stated that her #1 brother was a metrosexual and the girls asked 
was he gay.


The term metrosexual refers to a male who cares about their fashion sense as 
much as a well-kept female.  That is why some people think that this term 
metrosexual is a gay man.  Some people assume that only gay men dress 
extremely well and care about their appearance, and straight guys do not. 
Ironically, my #1 son wanted to fashion major in college.  He decided 
against it because he believed people would think he is gay.  I believe my 
son thinks this because when I was a fashion major student in the 1970s and 
1990s, male gay students would come to our home to study for our fashion 
tests, write papers, etc.  Another irony, both my best college friends in 
these decades were gay guys named Rodney.  My son assumes that all guys who 
are fashion majors are gay.  His wife or I can't him otherwise.  I have told 
him that there are gay and straight fashion designers, salesmen, retailers, 
buyers, etc. and named some of the famous ones.  I guess, he is not the only 
one who thinks this way.  Last summer after the Calvin Klein's Biography 
show in class, several of my students remarked, "I thought he was gay."  We 
had a long talk about assuming someone's sexually because of their career 
choice.  I was expecting this same "gay response" when I showed the same 
video in last week's class.   These students discussed a lot about Klei