Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
On Monday 18 February 2008, Chris Laning wrote: > On Feb 12, 2008, at 12:06 PM, Beth and Bob Matney wrote: > > There has been a bit of discussion about this on the Norsefolk_2 > > list. Here is an image of her reconstruction: > > > > see bottom of http://www.uu.se/press/pm.php?id=48 > > http://www.newsdesk.se/pressroom/uu/image/view/pm_vikingakvinna1-5825 > > I won't exactly say that Norse costume experts on other mailing lists > seem to be laughing themselves into stitches over this. but... You're absolutely right, Chris. I know this because I'm also a member of some of the other lists and have participated in those discussions. :-) I'll add here that a lot of what Larsson has proposed in her reconstruction comes from a recent (2006) find in Pskov, Russia, of large fragments of what appear to have been an undertunic with a gathered neck and an apron dress. The Pskov team is preparing an article on their find which will be presented at NESAT in 2008 and be in NESAT X, but here's a good factual summary in English of the preliminarily released details: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/sarafan/sarafan.htm The abstract for the NESAT paper gives some additional details that I wanted to raise here, for they present additional reasons counting against this proposed reconstruction: "Related with this outer item of the costume [i.e., the presumed undertunic] was the largest piece among the silk details found. It was a complete upper part (152 cm long and 25.5 cm wide) of the apron. At equal distances from the centre, fragments of two loops or shoulder-straps were preserved. The loops themselves were found on the pins of two oval fibulae. The silken trimming of the upper part of the apron consisted of several details cut from different kinds of silk. These all were cloths of the Byzantine type. On silken cloth no. 1, a woven pattern has been recognized with a scene of the Sassanian prince Bahram Gur hunting. In Europe, cloths with similar designs are known by finds from Milan, Cologne, and Prague. Within the territory of Russia they have been found at mountain burial grounds of the northern Caucasus. All of them are dated, at the latest, to the 9th Century being imitations of the earlier Sassanian textiles." In Larsson's reconstruction, the part of the apron dress that is ornamented with this precious, antique (the Sassanian silks are dated 9th century, while the burial is dated late 10th century) silk goes *at the small of the back.* I can't imagine any Viking wearing a garment in a fashion that would make it hard to find the most precious ornamentation on the garment. Overall, I agree with Chris's parting shot on this sort of daringly different reconstruction: > There is certainly merit in challenging the established "applecart" > of wisdom about how things were done, just to be sure no one is > getting too complacent or thinks that we know everything. But some > challenges have a lot of plausible reasoning and evidence behind > them, and others, well, don't. -- Cathy Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "You affect the world by what you browse."-- Tim Berners-Lee ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] RAYMOND MACHINE WORTH
Thanks for the info on patent dating. When the machine was checked it was found to have patent dates of 1879 and 1880 and was styled as a "NEW RAYMOND". I haven't seen it yet as I'm tied up with the current show at the theatre. I'd love to have a treadle machine as that is what I learned on and sewed, in a factory, on late 19thC. or early 20th C. electric powered treadle machines. I haven't a clue what to offer for it. Ideas anyone? I understand that there are pics, which I haven't seen yet, but I don't know how to post them. Audy in the high boonies of Central Texas PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
On Feb 12, 2008, at 12:06 PM, Beth and Bob Matney wrote: There has been a bit of discussion about this on the Norsefolk_2 list. Here is an image of her reconstruction: see bottom of http://www.uu.se/press/pm.php?id=48 http://www.newsdesk.se/pressroom/uu/image/view/pm_vikingakvinna1-5825 I won't exactly say that Norse costume experts on other mailing lists seem to be laughing themselves into stitches over this. but... There are certainly some aspects of it that don't look very practical, such as the train. Also, as someone on another list pointed out, generally costume found in one place and time will show some sort of evolutionary relationships to the costume of other, similar places at the same time, before and afterward. But I'm not aware of anything remotely like this anywhere in northern Europe (disclaimer: but then, I'm hardly an expert) To me, it would seem much more plausible that the placement of garment parts reconstructed here is the result of subsidence in the graves from which the originals came, rather than that they were actually worn that way. There is certainly merit in challenging the established "applecart" of wisdom about how things were done, just to be sure no one is getting too complacent or thinks that we know everything. But some challenges have a lot of plausible reasoning and evidence behind them, and others, well, don't. (I recently ran across someone who claims that French, Italian and Spanish all descended from Modern English, and that Latin never existed as a living language, it was merely scribal shorthand. Definitely one of the more far-out attempts to re-think established wisdom, and apparently without much in the way of evidence either.. http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/ 005394.html#more) OChris Laning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Cape May/Morris Co
From the French, caparaçon... - Original Message - From: "Rickard, Patty " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 2:41 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Cape May/Morris Co I bet that's right - but I think it's caparison. Patty -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of otsisto Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 3:39 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Cape May/Morris Co Though I have heard it refered to as barding, I have been informed by many a horse person that it is comparisons. Supposedly, barding is in reference to horse armour and camparison is the fabric heraldic garments. But online I find horse people calling it barding. http://ilaria.veltri.tripod.com/ http://www.bayrose.org/Poppy_Run/horse_barding_web.pdf -Original Message- On Saturday 16 February 2008, Rickard, Patty wrote: Do they make costumes for horses? Medieval reeenactors make costumes for horses - it gets called barding (if it isn't armour). Some vendors who market to medieval reenactors make them too. Consider this item from Historic Enterprises: http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=598&c=131 -- Cathy Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "You affect the world by what you browse."-- Tim Berners-Lee ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Money & weights in accounts (was: A little help, please.)
> "the foreparte of the George of Dyamountes the Mayle > of the curates and Rivet of the same of Siluer half > gilte with a sworde in his hand of gold a lozenged > Dyamounte like a sheelde and a Dragon of gold weying > together iij oz di di quarter" > > "a little George of gold to hang at a Collar of > garters weying one ounce quarter di" > > Thanks for any help with this. > > Kimiko Joan, I believe, has the right explanation for the above citation, but be careful. In some cases, a reference will be clear that the odd units refer to money rather than weight. Such as: 'Item for the lynyng and mendyng of 2 vardgales 14d.' 1555. Petrie Archives In this example, the costs are is 14d, where the d is denarius = a unit of money. I'm not clear how or why the Brits kept using d to refer to the old shilling coin. Perhaps it was a silver coin just as the roman denarius was? I leave to someone from the other side of the pond to explain further. --cin Cynthia Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Ball dress
I would definitely start with a Truly Victorian pattern. Their website is wonderful with pictures of their outfits made up by themselves or other customers! It really helps with the planning. I would also second the mention that the instructions are easy to follow. I made up my first bustle ball gown for a Costume College gala and there was no problem in getting it together. And, as was mentioned, Heather and Laura MacNaughton are wonderful about answering your questions. Good luck! Donna Scarfe Fyne Hats By Fellicity www.fynehatsbyfelicity.com **Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp0030002598) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Cape May/Morris Co ........... Barding or heraldricitems..., spelling is the key
>From www.bayrose.org/Poppy_Run/horse_barding_web.pdf Horse Barding is a very broad term. It is variously defined as a piece of armor used to protect or armor a horse1, an ornamental caparison for a horse2, horse trappings3, and "sometimes referring to the armour or the cloth decoration that served to identify the owner"4. It derives from the Middle English and Old French Barde and from the Arabic Barda, which is a padded saddle or saddle cloth.5 It was not unusual during a tournament or when engaged in warfare for horse armor to be used in addition to the cloth decoration. 1 Dictionary.com - The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. 2 http://www.onelook.com/?loc=lemma3&w=bard 3 Websters online - 1828 dictionary 4 http://www.onelook.com/?loc=lemma3&w=bard 5 Dictionary.com, Encarta.msn.com/dictionary -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Melody Watts Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 12:32 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Cape May/Morris Co ... Barding or heraldricitems..., spelling is the key The spelling may be throwing people off. According to Mirriam Websters its; "Caparison" no "M" . Main Entry: 1ca·par·i·son Pronunciation: \kə-ˈper-ə-sən, -ˈpa-rə-\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle French caparaçon, from Old Spanish caparazón Date: 1579 1 a: an ornamental covering for a horse b: decorative trappings and harness 2: rich clothing : adornment Melody otsisto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Though I have heard it refered to as barding, I have been informed by many a horse person that it is comparisons. Supposedly, barding is in reference to horse armour and camparison is the fabric heraldic garments. But online I find horse people calling it barding. http://ilaria.veltri.tripod.com/ http://www.bayrose.org/Poppy_Run/horse_barding_web.pdf -Original Message- On Saturday 16 February 2008, Rickard, Patty wrote: > Do they > make costumes for horses? > > Medieval reeenactors make costumes for horses - it gets called barding (if > it isn't armour). Some vendors who market to medieval reenactors make them too. Consider this item from Historic Enterprises: http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=598&c=131 -- Cathy Raymond "You affect the world by what you browse."-- Tim Berners-Lee ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Cape May/Morris Co ........... Barding or heraldricitems..., spelling is the key
My Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary gives these definitions: Bard: 1. A piece of armor or ornament for a horse's neck, breast or flank. 2. To furnish with bards. Caparison: 1. a. An ornamental covering for a horse. b.Decorative trappings and harness. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Melody Watts Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 12:32 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Cape May/Morris Co ... Barding or heraldricitems..., spelling is the key The spelling may be throwing people off. According to Mirriam Websters its; "Caparison" no "M" . Main Entry: 1ca·par·i·son Pronunciation: \kə-ˈper-ə-sən, -ˈpa-rə-\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle French caparaçon, from Old Spanish caparazón Date: 1579 1 a: an ornamental covering for a horse b: decorative trappings and harness 2: rich clothing : adornment Melody otsisto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Though I have heard it refered to as barding, I have been informed by many a horse person that it is comparisons. Supposedly, barding is in reference to horse armour and camparison is the fabric heraldic garments. But online I find horse people calling it barding. http://ilaria.veltri.tripod.com/ http://www.bayrose.org/Poppy_Run/horse_barding_web.pdf -Original Message- On Saturday 16 February 2008, Rickard, Patty wrote: > Do they > make costumes for horses? > > Medieval reeenactors make costumes for horses - it gets called barding (if > it isn't armour). Some vendors who market to medieval reenactors make them too. Consider this item from Historic Enterprises: http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=598&c=131 -- Cathy Raymond "You affect the world by what you browse."-- Tim Berners-Lee ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Ball dress:
http://www.westernersoutfitter.com/Vintage%20Patterns.htm or http://www.riverjunction.com/catalog/patterns/Truly1.html or the source http://www.trulyvictorian.com/ -Original Message- It is that time, I have to plan making not only my first bustle gown, but probably best if I get a bustle era ball gown knocked out of the way since I do not have one. What is a good pattern to start with? I keep finding a pattern on ebay called Buckaroo Bobbins and it is a pattern for a polonaise and bustle skirt but I am not sure if it would be a good pattern, it could be just as unathentic as the one or two incredibly inaccurate patterns produced by the large companies. The polonaise gown looks easy enough but with out any experience it may be alot harder than thought to be. Would it be best to try out that era first with something simple to get the feel for it? When I do make the ball gown, it isn't going to be an easy 1-2-3 peice like my others to date so maybe if there are any bustlers out there you could share some hints on how to get started and what to avoid/try. Goodnight and thanks, Justine:) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Ball dress
Thank you Lynn for your advice, TV patterns have a good vibe about them, people who use them seem satisfied and being that you said they have good instructions makes me all the more certain that that will be where my patterns are purchased from. Ageless has all the same patterns they do, not sure which of their patterns classify as "ageless" as opposed to TV or folklore patterns, etc. I wonder if there is a haute couture's secret dressmaking and design bible floating around somewhere from way back when that has all the good information on how to create a totally custom style, cause the styles you see reproduced (not to say there aren't reproductions being made so well you can't tell the difference) are rarely varied in pattern when there are so many unusual methods of bustle, skirt, sleeve, drapery and bodice treatments of the originals. We get to use what is available of printed patterns from then with inspiration taken from original examples but someone knew how to create them from their head and that's sweet. Lots of money to the person who develops the skill of custom pattern drafting in historical reproduction clothing. :) Justine. More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
