Re: [h-cost] Trade Journals
Penny, I am not sure of the neckline but it may mean a slight 'V with attached fabric collar (recollection of F?tennis players of that time period.)? The d-b reffers to Double breasted jacket. Kathleen? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Washing, ironing, and running repairs - was an amusing error
I guess what we remember of these machines is that they were not Toys.??Many modern day kids seem to think that any thing that has moving parts invite an interactive response and it is Their turn. As a pre-schooler, I actually got to try ironing with a flatiron..fresh from the big black stove. The first thing I discovered was that It was heavy and hot! ! Scorching hankies resulted from not moving it fast enough.? The experience made me understand why I couldn't have nicely?ironed dresses new every day. Mother made it look so easy.? Gram had a mangle (after we got electricity,1948) and I got to help with some of the flat linen and?I thought that was cool Kathleen. -Original Message- From: Betsy Marshall be...@softwareinnovation.com Sent 1/17/2010 9:08:56 PM To: 'Historical Costume' h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Washing, ironing, and running repairs - was an amusing errorNo doubt the cause/association behind the verb- to mangle- with its' connotations of mutilation and destruction. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Marjorie Wilser Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 8:03 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Washing, ironing, and running repairs - was an amusing error And for good reason, Catherine. My mom caught her finger in the wringer when I was an infant. She left me with a neighbor and _ran_ to the nearest doctor's office- this was before 2 cars (or more) per family. Until we got a modern washer, my mom took the laundry- and me- to the laundromat when her finger recovered! == Marjorie Wilser =:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=: Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement. --MW http://3toad.blogspot.com/ On Jan 17, 2010, at 5:10 PM, cbellfl...@aol.com wrote: My grandmother had a washing machine on her back porch with a wringer on top. We kids weren't allowed to mess with that. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Dye Color
H again - must be free-range yolks.:-) ...of fustic in relation to the concentration of kermes you'd get orange rather than yolk yellow. Jen/pixel/Margaret ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] pressing mangle RE: An amusing error?
My mother had a machine that she called a mangle. There was a bottom piece on which you placed damp clothing or sheets (after the wringer), and a top piece which heated up (electrically, I think). You could fold shirts and place them on the bottom surface, or you could have it roll sheets or other flat things through. You brought the top down - it was essentially a large iron. Huge amounts of steam. Patty -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Sharon Collier Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 4:57 AM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: Re: [h-cost] An amusing error? Right, it's not an ironing device, but something to wring out clothes. You'd have thought the author would have done his homework! -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Charlene Charette Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 1:37 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] An amusing error? Mangle is the British term for what Americans call a wringer. --Charlene On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 3:03 AM, Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com wrote: I am reading a book, What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew and in the part about laundry, the author says, This made laundry day such a chore that many better-off households hired a washerwoman to do it, since immense amounts of water had to be boiled, the clothes blued and starched by hand, ironed, and then put through a mangle, a tablelike contraption with two rollers through which you rolled the clothing until it was pressed. I would hate to have him doing my laundry! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Bikes can't stand alone because they're two-tired. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Washing, irioning, and running repairs - was an amusing error
I should remember to read the rest of the posts before I answer. Yes, that's what my mother had - 1050s Ohio. Patty My mother had an ironing mangle (electric) in the 1950s in New Jersey. I loved watching that thing work (only my mother was allowed to run it--because, yes, it had its dangers). Tablecloths and drapessmooth as glass. --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] OT regional english for mangle was RE: Washing, irioning, and running repairs - was an amusing error
Does anyone have a copy of the Dictionary of American Regional English to check? Patty (from NE Ohio who grew up with an ironing mangle (and a wringer washer)) I have to put in my 2 cents - I never heard of an ironing kind of mangle until recently- my first association is that a mangle is the wringer part that goes over the washing tub. I grew up in western PA, perhaps that helps? So, I am always surprised when somebody is selling a flat bed iron and calls it a mangle. -Megan ___ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] mangle RE: An amusing error?
With either use of the word, though, it seems that the book was not quite right in the order of operations. It's definitely out of order for a wringer. I'm not sure what they mean by blued and starched by hand. Blueing is added to the water, and even using spray starch these days seems like a hand process to me. Finally, with a pressing mangle, why would you iron first and then use a mangle? I could see, with some items, mangling and then touching up some portions with an iron afterward. It was interesting, though, to learn that mangle has two meanings. -Carol On Jan 18, 2010, at 10:45 AM, Rickard, Patty wrote: My mother had a machine that she called a mangle. There was a bottom piece on which you placed damp clothing or sheets (after the wringer), and a top piece which heated up (electrically, I think). You could fold shirts and place them on the bottom surface, or you could have it roll sheets or other flat things through. You brought the top down - it was essentially a large iron. Huge amounts of steam. Patty -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Sharon Collier Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 4:57 AM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: Re: [h-cost] An amusing error? Right, it's not an ironing device, but something to wring out clothes. You'd have thought the author would have done his homework! -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Charlene Charette Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 1:37 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] An amusing error? Mangle is the British term for what Americans call a wringer. --Charlene On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 3:03 AM, Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com wrote: I am reading a book, What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew and in the part about laundry, the author says, This made laundry day such a chore that many better-off households hired a washerwoman to do it, since immense amounts of water had to be boiled, the clothes blued and starched by hand, ironed, and then put through a mangle, a tablelike contraption with two rollers through which you rolled the clothing until it was pressed. I would hate to have him doing my laundry! ___ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] OT regional english for mangle
Ok, Guys and Gals, there is obviously a terminology divide between the UK and the USA, as well as a Time divide here. May I put in a comments from an ageing Britisher? Most of you who remember an ironing mangle being used by your female relatives seem to have grown-up in the USA, post WW2 - quite a long way after, at that. I'm 72 yrs old, and I grew-up in SE England during and after WW2, in a middle-class family that was fairly prosperous by English social standards of the Time. We lived in a garden suburb of Southend, which had been developed from Southchurch farmland . Dad and MUm had bought a newly-built, 3-bedroomed semi-detached house when they married in 1934. At that time, Dad had the second motorcar in the 750yds-long Marlborough Road. Mum had a brand-new Frigidaire when they moved-in to their new house in 1934, and a brand-new kitchen cooker fuelled by coalgas. Their telephone number was Southend 576 - this in a seaside holiday town of around 100,00 residents. She had an upright Hoover vacuum cleaner, an electric Singer sewing machine, - and was the envy of most of her female neighbours because she had these houswork aids.. But she did her washing in a galvanised tin tub, and used a dolly agitator, and a washboard; and her ironing with a series of flat-irons heated on the kitchen gas-stove. Just as her own Mum had done and still did in my Aunt's house a half-mile away. Mum got her first electric iron - from the E.K. Cole Factory out near Rochford, - when my brother was born in 1945. I well remember my safety briefing! about that, because most of my schoolfriend's Mothers were still doing their ironing with flat-irons heated on their own kitchen stoves/cookers A nd Mum's first elecrtically-run washing machine, [an American import which cost Dad a lot of money in the Southend Gas. Light, Coke Co,. Showrooms] - was bought for her Birthday in 1948 - and didn't have what you Americans call a wringer. She had to wait for one of those until 1953, Coronation Year. She then sold her first upright-tub washing machine pre-owned to a neighbour for more than Dad had paid for it 5 years earlier, because electric washing machines were still the exception rather than the Rule within our local circle of middle-class neighbours. Now I tell you all this, because most of your comments seem to relate to a rather later and more prosperous America [than post-war Britain] - where such domestic domestic white-goods were more readily available. The UK situation just post-War was that - for a very long time, in postWar Britain, - the Middle-Classes just could buy those US-made machines, - because US imports were heavily restricted. And what made THAT more frustrating for our family was that my Aunt mercia's husband was a typographer working for Cunard aboard the 2 Queens and the Caronia on the recently re-instated Transatlantic Services, - and would bring home every month [ amongst other things from the USA] - nylons and American cigarettes for my Aunt and his sisters-in-law, - the occasional US-made toy and Marvell Family Comic books for me; - and the latest Saturday Evening Posts with those wonderful Norman Rockwell Covers, - full of adverts for things to make the American Housewife's life easier - things which were simply unobtainable in Britain because private persons just couldn't obtain Import Permits. In that context, - I doubt that any Brit just post-War - outside a major UK Tourist Hotel's Laundry Room - ever saw what you call an ironing mangle And a Hotel Chain would have needed to obtain a series of Import Permits from the Ministry of Supply for such things up till the late 1950's - - which they would have only gotten through being involved in the Tourist Trade which brought in much-needed Dollars from US Tourists and Service personnel.. So - in this discussion about what the word mangle represents, - there is a Geographic - and a Time - divide - on each side of the North Atlantic; - as well as what I suppose to be the different US experiences between those commentators from rural and City America backgrounds. Speaking from my own lifetime experiences, I'd say that very few British households - even in the relatively properous South around London - would have been able to afford an electric upright-tub-washing machine with a wringer mounted on the rim before the mid-1950's. And my wife and I married over 45 years ago, but it was another 5 years before I was able to give her a rotary iron - which I obtained second-hand from a Hotel which was about to be demolished. Until then, I used to insist that - as she was a Nurse working full-time on shift-duties - she was to send all of our heavy weekly washing out to the local Besco Laundry in St. Helier - they did a collection and delivery service, which was very popular with local households where both parents worked.. Cordially, Julian Wilson.
Re: [h-cost] OT regional english for mangle
Thank you Julian for your fabulous personal account. It made for very interesting reading on this otherwise dull rainy day. --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:39:34 + (GMT) From: julian wilson smnc...@yahoo.co.uk To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] OT regional english for mangle Ok, Guys and Gals, ?there is obviously a terminology divide between the UK and the USA, as well as a Time divide here. May I put in a comments from an ageing Britisher? ?Most of you who remember an ironing mangle? being used by your female relatives seem to have grown-up in the USA, post WW2 - quite a long way after, at that. snipped to be concise ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Silk velvet
You mean these guys? http://www.goldendor.com/retail_store.html Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com On 1/17/2010 5:11 PM, Chiara Francesca wrote: Silk d'Or has a private bridal shop that they put out the overflow into that little back room that has minimal lighting sometimes. That is where some of us have found the silk velvet. And I too have mine sitting in a box for um ... too many years. :D ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] OT regional english for mangle
Julian, That's a really interesting description, and it does make sense why the ironing mangle is less familiar on this side of the pond. It reminds me of my mother telling me why their house (built 1930s) had a stone-floored pantry, and they saved up to get a fridge a year or two after they moved there in the early 1960s - a fridge was still not regarded as absolutely essential, it was something you got once other things were settled. Strangely, since she was a needlework teacher, I've never heard anything about the laundry arrangements. Although we still had a twin-tub, possibly even until I left home - I don't remember learning how to work a front-loader at home until after I had used the launderette for a while at college. Jean julian wilson wrote: Ok, Guys and Gals, there is obviously a terminology divide between the UK and the USA, as well as a Time divide here. May I put in a comments from an ageing Britisher? Most of you who remember an ironing mangle being used by your female relatives seem to have grown-up in the USA, post WW2 - quite a long way after, at that. I'm 72 yrs old, and I grew-up in SE England during and after WW2, in a middle-class family that was fairly prosperous by English social standards of the Time. We lived in a garden suburb of Southend, which had been developed from Southchurch farmland . Dad and MUm had bought a newly-built, 3-bedroomed semi-detached house when they married in 1934. At that time, Dad had the second motorcar in the 750yds-long Marlborough Road. Mum had a brand-new Frigidaire when they moved-in to their new house in 1934, and a brand-new kitchen cooker fuelled by coalgas. Their telephone number was Southend 576 - this in a seaside holiday town of around 100,00 residents. She had an upright Hoover vacuum cleaner, an electric Singer sewing machine, - and was the envy of most of her female neighbours because she had these houswork aids.. But she did her washing in a galvanised tin tub, and used a dolly agitator, and a washboard; and her ironing with a series of flat-irons heated on the kitchen gas-stove. Just as her own Mum had done and still did in my Aunt's house a half-mile away. Mum got her first electric iron - from the E.K. Cole Factory out near Rochford, - when my brother was born in 1945. I well remember my safety briefing! about that, because most of my schoolfriend's Mothers were still doing their ironing with flat-irons heated on their own kitchen stoves/cookers A nd Mum's first elecrtically-run washing machine, [an American import which cost Dad a lot of money in the Southend Gas. Light, Coke Co,. Showrooms] - was bought for her Birthday in 1948 - and didn't have what you Americans call a wringer. She had to wait for one of those until 1953, Coronation Year. She then sold her first upright-tub washing machine pre-owned to a neighbour for more than Dad had paid for it 5 years earlier, because electric washing machines were still the exception rather than the Rule within our local circle of middle-class neighbours. Now I tell you all this, because most of your comments seem to relate to a rather later and more prosperous America [than post-war Britain] - where such domestic domestic white-goods were more readily available. The UK situation just post-War was that - for a very long time, in postWar Britain, - the Middle-Classes just could buy those US-made machines, - because US imports were heavily restricted. And what made THAT more frustrating for our family was that my Aunt mercia's husband was a typographer working for Cunard aboard the 2 Queens and the Caronia on the recently re-instated Transatlantic Services, - and would bring home every month [ amongst other things from the USA] - nylons and American cigarettes for my Aunt and his sisters-in-law, - the occasional US-made toy and Marvell Family Comic books for me; - and the latest Saturday Evening Posts with those wonderful Norman Rockwell Covers, - full of adverts for things to make the American Housewife's life easier - things which were simply unobtainable in Britain because private persons just couldn't obtain Import Permits. In that context, - I doubt that any Brit just post-War - outside a major UK Tourist Hotel's Laundry Room - ever saw what you call an ironing mangle And a Hotel Chain would have needed to obtain a series of Import Permits from the Ministry of Supply for such things up till the late 1950's - - which they would have only gotten through being involved in the Tourist Trade which brought in much-needed Dollars from US Tourists and Service personnel.. So - in this discussion about what the word mangle represents, - there is a Geographic - and a Time - divide - on each side of the North Atlantic; - as well as what I suppose to be the different US experiences between those commentators from rural and City America backgrounds. Speaking from my own lifetime experiences, I'd say that very few British households -
Re: [h-cost] Silk velvet
Yes, I think she meant Golden D'or. Their backroom is cheap but I haven't been able to find much there as of late. Was a goldmine when they first opened the backroom up but not so much now. I did not find my velvet there; it was from one of the little stores on Perth Street (which is a short distance away from Golden D'or). Traci On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.comwrote: You mean these guys? http://www.goldendor.com/retail_store.html Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com On 1/17/2010 5:11 PM, Chiara Francesca wrote: Silk d'Or has a private bridal shop that they put out the overflow into that little back room that has minimal lighting sometimes. That is where some of us have found the silk velvet. And I too have mine sitting in a box for um ... too many years. :D ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Washing, irioning,and running repairs
Hi all, This is actually a subject I've found very interesting in the last two years, and have been casually studying. Anyone similarly interested should check out a book called The Country House Servant by Pamela Sambrook under the auspices of the National Trust: http://www.amazon.com/Country-House-Servant-Pamela-Sambrook/dp/075092988X/ So the terminology issue comes down to the fact that the actual apparatus for mangling and the tools of the laundress' trade changed a lot during the Industrial Revolution. In the time period mentioned, a lot of larger households would fold washed items into specific patterns, place them on some coarser linen, and roll that onto a large wooden roller. In larger households, several of these wooden rollers would go onto a table, a large weight would be applied on top, and the whole kabob would be rolled back and forth to squeeze out as much water as possible. (In fact, you can sort-of see a picture of one of these great mangles on the cover of the book I just linked to, above.) This often took the place of ironing, because linen, especially when wet, takes a nice crease and keeps it, which is why items were so carefully folded before being placed on the fabric runner. I also highly encourage everyone interested in the history of laundry to check out this site: http://www.oldandinteresting.com And specifically these sections: http://www.oldandinteresting.com/box-mangles.aspx http://www.oldandinteresting.com/mangle-boards.aspx http://www.oldandinteresting.com/antique-irons-smoothers-mangles.aspx Cheers! -Laura (lurker extraordinaire) Message: 3 Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:38:40 -0800 From: Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com To: 'Historical Costume' h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Washing, irioning,and running repairs - was an amusing error Message-ID: 201001172139.o0hlcwy8071...@net.indra.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yes, I was, because I knew a mangle as a device to wring water out of clothes before drying. However, another person here says there was a rotary iron, also called a mangle. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of landofoz Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 6:55 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Washing, irioning,and running repairs - was an amusing error I think the OP was pointing out the error of the order in which the author described the events of the laundry... Denise B ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tag Lines and Spanish/Portugese Undergarments
Try The Hispanic Costume Book 1480-1530 by Ruth Matilda Andewrson. They have a whole section with pictures. If anyone about has any information on what the Spanish and/or Portugese called the Smock/Camisia/Chemise I would dearly love to know! -- Aspasia Moonwind ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] The term hennin
I've been asked about the origins of the word hennin, commonly used today for a range of 15th-century tall headdresses. I was surprised that the OED doesn't trace it back any further than the 19th c., but the OED is notoriously bad with clothing terminology, and I don't have access at the moment to the MED. Does anyone have anything more concrete -- either an MED reference, or any citation to an actual 15th c. inventory or other document that uses the term? The person who asked me was taught (quite some time ago) that it was a derogatory term used to criticize women's headdresses, but I am skeptical of the story she was told. However, it's certainly not unprecedented for 18th and 19th c. costume historians to pick up the wrong word from historical references and establish it as the going term for a garment, or to make up a term that gets entrenched in the literature. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] OT regional english for mangle
I just realized-the book I'm reading was for the mid 1800's, so an electric ironer would have been impossible! I was correct when I assumed he was incorrect when talking about the 2 roller thing (mangle or wringer) being used to iron clothes. It WAS for wringing out the water and he got it wrong. My point was that he should have done his homework before putting erroneous information into his book. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of julian wilson Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 10:40 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] OT regional english for mangle Ok, Guys and Gals, there is obviously a terminology divide between the UK and the USA, as well as a Time divide here. May I put in a comments from an ageing Britisher? Most of you who remember an ironing mangle being used by your female relatives seem to have grown-up in the USA, post WW2 - quite a long way after, at that. I'm 72 yrs old, and I grew-up in SE England during and after WW2, in a middle-class family that was fairly prosperous by English social standards of the Time. We lived in a garden suburb of Southend, which had been developed from Southchurch farmland . Dad and MUm had bought a newly-built, 3-bedroomed semi-detached house when they married in 1934. At that time, Dad had the second motorcar in the 750yds-long Marlborough Road. Mum had a brand-new Frigidaire when they moved-in to their new house in 1934, and a brand-new kitchen cooker fuelled by coalgas. Their telephone number was Southend 576 - this in a seaside holiday town of around 100,00 residents. She had an upright Hoover vacuum cleaner, an electric Singer sewing machine, - and was the envy of most of her female neighbours because she had these houswork aids.. But she did her washing in a galvanised tin tub, and used a dolly agitator, and a washboard; and her ironing with a series of flat-irons heated on the kitchen gas-stove. Just as her own Mum had done and still did in my Aunt's house a half-mile away. Mum got her first electric iron - from the E.K. Cole Factory out near Rochford, - when my brother was born in 1945. I well remember my safety briefing! about that, because most of my schoolfriend's Mothers were still doing their ironing with flat-irons heated on their own kitchen stoves/cookers A nd Mum's first elecrtically-run washing machine, [an American import which cost Dad a lot of money in the Southend Gas. Light, Coke Co,. Showrooms] - was bought for her Birthday in 1948 - and didn't have what you Americans call a wringer. She had to wait for one of those until 1953, Coronation Year. She then sold her first upright-tub washing machine pre-owned to a neighbour for more than Dad had paid for it 5 years earlier, because electric washing machines were still the exception rather than the Rule within our local circle of middle-class neighbours. Now I tell you all this, because most of your comments seem to relate to a rather later and more prosperous America [than post-war Britain] - where such domestic domestic white-goods were more readily available. The UK situation just post-War was that - for a very long time, in postWar Britain, - the Middle-Classes just could buy those US-made machines, - because US imports were heavily restricted. And what made THAT more frustrating for our family was that my Aunt mercia's husband was a typographer working for Cunard aboard the 2 Queens and the Caronia on the recently re-instated Transatlantic Services, - and would bring home every month [ amongst other things from the USA] - nylons and American cigarettes for my Aunt and his sisters-in-law, - the occasional US-made toy and Marvell Family Comic books for me; - and the latest Saturday Evening Posts with those wonderful Norman Rockwell Covers, - full of adverts for things to make the American Housewife's life easier - things which were simply unobtainable in Britain because private persons just couldn't obtain Import Permits. In that context, - I doubt that any Brit just post-War - outside a major UK Tourist Hotel's Laundry Room - ever saw what you call an ironing mangle And a Hotel Chain would have needed to obtain a series of Import Permits from the Ministry of Supply for such things up till the late 1950's - - which they would have only gotten through being involved in the Tourist Trade which brought in much-needed Dollars from US Tourists and Service personnel.. So - in this discussion about what the word mangle represents, - there is a Geographic - and a Time - divide - on each side of the North Atlantic; - as well as what I suppose to be the different US experiences between those commentators from rural and City America backgrounds. Speaking from my own lifetime experiences, I'd say that very few British households - even in the relatively properous South around London - would have been able to afford an electric upright-tub-washing machine with a wringer mounted on the rim
Re: [h-cost] Washing, irioning, and running repairs - was an amusing error
In a message dated 1/17/2010 4:37:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, sha...@collierfam.com writes: So they had a wringer-mangle and an ironing-mangle. Interesting. The ironing mangle might even predate the wringer one. I know that the British minister to the US, Charles Bagot, recommended that his successor bring a mangle when he came to Washington, circa 1820, as it would iron the extremely long tablecloths needed for the requisite entertaining. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
My French dictionaries say henne (should have an accent on the second E) means henna, while hennir means to neigh or whinny (like a horse). Don't know if that helps at all. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 2:08 PM To: Historic Costume List Subject: [h-cost] The term hennin I've been asked about the origins of the word hennin, commonly used today for a range of 15th-century tall headdresses. I was surprised that the OED doesn't trace it back any further than the 19th c., but the OED is notoriously bad with clothing terminology, and I don't have access at the moment to the MED. Does anyone have anything more concrete -- either an MED reference, or any citation to an actual 15th c. inventory or other document that uses the term? The person who asked me was taught (quite some time ago) that it was a derogatory term used to criticize women's headdresses, but I am skeptical of the story she was told. However, it's certainly not unprecedented for 18th and 19th c. costume historians to pick up the wrong word from historical references and establish it as the going term for a garment, or to make up a term that gets entrenched in the literature. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] OT regional english for mangle
Well, Sharon, the cast-iron-framed mangle one saw in so many households when I was a small boy, used for squeezing excess water from clothes - was a design that went back to the Victorian Era - and it wouldn't surprise me at all if - in examining the catalogue for the Great Exhibition of 1851, one found an ancestor of that machine being shown by some enterprising Midlands Manufacturer. The machines were so well-designed, and so strongly and simply built, that they would survive for a very long time indeed. Cordially, Julian Wilson --- On Mon, 18/1/10, Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com wrote: From: Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT regional english for mangle To: 'Historical Costume' h-cost...@indra.com Date: Monday, 18 January, 2010, 23:25 I just realized-the book I'm reading was for the mid 1800's, so an electric ironer would have been impossible! I was correct when I assumed he was incorrect when talking about the 2 roller thing (mangle or wringer) being used to iron clothes. It WAS for wringing out the water and he got it wrong. My point was that he should have done his homework before putting erroneous information into his book. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of julian wilson Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 10:40 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] OT regional english for mangle Ok, Guys and Gals, there is obviously a terminology divide between the UK and the USA, as well as a Time divide here. May I put in a comments from an ageing Britisher? Most of you who remember an ironing mangle being used by your female relatives seem to have grown-up in the USA, post WW2 - quite a long way after, at that. I'm 72 yrs old, and I grew-up in SE England during and after WW2, in a middle-class family that was fairly prosperous by English social standards of the Time. We lived in a garden suburb of Southend, which had been developed from Southchurch farmland . Dad and MUm had bought a newly-built, 3-bedroomed semi-detached house when they married in 1934. At that time, Dad had the second motorcar in the 750yds-long Marlborough Road. Mum had a brand-new Frigidaire when they moved-in to their new house in 1934, and a brand-new kitchen cooker fuelled by coalgas. Their telephone number was Southend 576 - this in a seaside holiday town of around 100,00 residents. She had an upright Hoover vacuum cleaner, an electric Singer sewing machine, - and was the envy of most of her female neighbours because she had these houswork aids.. But she did her washing in a galvanised tin tub, and used a dolly agitator, and a washboard; and her ironing with a series of flat-irons heated on the kitchen gas-stove. Just as her own Mum had done and still did in my Aunt's house a half-mile away. Mum got her first electric iron - from the E.K. Cole Factory out near Rochford, - when my brother was born in 1945. I well remember my safety briefing! about that, because most of my schoolfriend's Mothers were still doing their ironing with flat-irons heated on their own kitchen stoves/cookers A nd Mum's first elecrtically-run washing machine, [an American import which cost Dad a lot of money in the Southend Gas. Light, Coke Co,. Showrooms] - was bought for her Birthday in 1948 - and didn't have what you Americans call a wringer. She had to wait for one of those until 1953, Coronation Year. She then sold her first upright-tub washing machine pre-owned to a neighbour for more than Dad had paid for it 5 years earlier, because electric washing machines were still the exception rather than the Rule within our local circle of middle-class neighbours. Now I tell you all this, because most of your comments seem to relate to a rather later and more prosperous America [than post-war Britain] - where such domestic domestic white-goods were more readily available. The UK situation just post-War was that - for a very long time, in postWar Britain, - the Middle-Classes just could buy those US-made machines, - because US imports were heavily restricted. And what made THAT more frustrating for our family was that my Aunt mercia's husband was a typographer working for Cunard aboard the 2 Queens and the Caronia on the recently re-instated Transatlantic Services, - and would bring home every month [ amongst other things from the USA] - nylons and American cigarettes for my Aunt and his sisters-in-law, - the occasional US-made toy and Marvell Family Comic books for me; - and the latest Saturday Evening Posts with those wonderful Norman Rockwell Covers, - full of adverts for things to make the American Housewife's life easier - things which were simply unobtainable in Britain because private persons just couldn't obtain Import Permits. In that context, - I doubt that any Brit just post-War - outside a major UK Tourist Hotel's Laundry Room - ever saw what you call an ironing mangle And a Hotel Chain would have needed to
Re: [h-cost] Silk velvet
It may have been the one that is closed now. Gold had three shops back there at one time. Now I think someone else is renting the space and selling fabrics through there but the last time we went two of them were closed. They vary between what doors are opened and closed through the seasons. :) ♫ Chiara Francesca Which 'Chiara'...?? Nah... wasn't me ;-) -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Traci Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 11:26 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silk velvet Yes, I think she meant Golden D'or. Their backroom is cheap but I haven't been able to find much there as of late. Was a goldmine when they first opened the backroom up but not so much now. I did not find my velvet there; it was from one of the little stores on Perth Street (which is a short distance away from Golden D'or). Traci On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.comwrote: You mean these guys? http://www.goldendor.com/retail_store.html Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com On 1/17/2010 5:11 PM, Chiara Francesca wrote: Silk d'Or has a private bridal shop that they put out the overflow into that little back room that has minimal lighting sometimes. That is where some of us have found the silk velvet. And I too have mine sitting in a box for um ... too many years. :D ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Ladies - try medieval Flemish or Breton for a source. Just a suggestion. Julain Wilson --- On Mon, 18/1/10, Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com wrote: From: Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] The term hennin To: 'Historical Costume' h-cost...@indra.com Date: Monday, 18 January, 2010, 23:31 My French dictionaries say henne (should have an accent on the second E) means henna, while hennir means to neigh or whinny (like a horse). Don't know if that helps at all. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 2:08 PM To: Historic Costume List Subject: [h-cost] The term hennin I've been asked about the origins of the word hennin, commonly used today for a range of 15th-century tall headdresses. I was surprised that the OED doesn't trace it back any further than the 19th c., but the OED is notoriously bad with clothing terminology, and I don't have access at the moment to the MED. Does anyone have anything more concrete -- either an MED reference, or any citation to an actual 15th c. inventory or other document that uses the term? The person who asked me was taught (quite some time ago) that it was a derogatory term used to criticize women's headdresses, but I am skeptical of the story she was told. However, it's certainly not unprecedented for 18th and 19th c. costume historians to pick up the wrong word from historical references and establish it as the going term for a garment, or to make up a term that gets entrenched in the literature. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
I do not know why you are looking it up in OED as it isn't English. (Did the English wear hennins?) I am not 100% sure where I saw the info but I believe it is Old French or possibly of Neitherland origin. I vaguely remember something about hennin and a cockscomb association. I think the modern Dutch word for cockscomb is hanekam. I am unsure what the medieval word would be. Hope this helps, De -Original Message- I've been asked about the origins of the word hennin, commonly used today for a range of 15th-century tall headdresses. I was surprised that the OED doesn't trace it back any further than the 19th c., but the OED is notoriously bad with clothing terminology, and I don't have access at the moment to the MED. Does anyone have anything more concrete -- either an MED reference, or any citation to an actual 15th c. inventory or other document that uses the term? The person who asked me was taught (quite some time ago) that it was a derogatory term used to criticize women's headdresses, but I am skeptical of the story she was told. However, it's certainly not unprecedented for 18th and 19th c. costume historians to pick up the wrong word from historical references and establish it as the going term for a garment, or to make up a term that gets entrenched in the literature. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] where has all the velvet gone? (rant)
I had a most disappointing shopping trip today. I was searching for a nice blue-green cotton velvet and was surprised at the lack of options. I went to Hancock's first, they had NO fashion velvet of any kind. They had 3 rolls of upholstery velvet, nice stuff, in black, brown and red. Hobby Lobby had no upholstery velvet, and cheap acrylic fashion velvet in black, navy and red. I found some medium turquoise on the clearance rack and bought that. It might work, and it was cheap enough. Joann's had the requisite cheap acrylic velvet in red and black, and no upholstery velvet. Lots of chenille, no velvet. So what is it with velvet these days? The acrylic stuff just gets crappier and crappier and I can't find simple cotton anywhere. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
otsisto wrote: I do not know why you are looking it up in OED as it isn't English. (Did the English wear hennins?) The word is used in modern English (and it's in the OED as such), and the OED gives etymologies, so I was hoping for a clue -- but as I noted, OED is not my reference of choice for costume terms, just what I happened to have at hand. I'm not at a library today. I was rather hoping someone had already trodden this ground before, so I could give my inquirer an accepted answer. But it's not a question I'm going to be able to take time to research, and I don't expect anyone else to spend a lot of time on it. I am not 100% sure where I saw the info but I believe it is Old French or possibly of Neitherland origin. I vaguely remember something about hennin and a cockscomb association. I think the modern Dutch word for cockscomb is hanekam. I am unsure what the medieval word would be. That's as good an idea as any, and probably more likely than hent or henne. Julian was probably right to look at medieval Flemish, but that's way out of my range of references at hand. Overall, though, it's sounding like there isn't a previously researched, accepted etymology. Rather, it might be good subject for a research project. In this case, for someone else, not me! Regardless of etymology, though, even one contemporary inventory reference that uses the word would answer my inquirer's question, as she was told the word wasn't actually used for the headdress in the period, except perhaps as a term of derision. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] OT regional english for mangle
Yes, I realize that the wringer type was in existence, but how would a large ironing type be heated before electricity? -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of julian wilson Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 3:33 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT regional english for mangle Well, Sharon, the cast-iron-framed mangle one saw in so many households when I was a small boy, used for squeezing excess water from clothes - was a design that went back to the Victorian Era - and it wouldn't surprise me at all if - in examining the catalogue for the Great Exhibition of 1851, one found an ancestor of that machine being shown by some enterprising Midlands Manufacturer. The machines were so well-designed, and so strongly and simply built, that they would survive for a very long time indeed. Cordially, Julian Wilson --- On Mon, 18/1/10, Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com wrote: From: Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT regional english for mangle To: 'Historical Costume' h-cost...@indra.com Date: Monday, 18 January, 2010, 23:25 I just realized-the book I'm reading was for the mid 1800's, so an electric ironer would have been impossible! I was correct when I assumed he was incorrect when talking about the 2 roller thing (mangle or wringer) being used to iron clothes. It WAS for wringing out the water and he got it wrong. My point was that he should have done his homework before putting erroneous information into his book. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of julian wilson Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 10:40 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] OT regional english for mangle Ok, Guys and Gals, there is obviously a terminology divide between the UK and the USA, as well as a Time divide here. May I put in a comments from an ageing Britisher? Most of you who remember an ironing mangle being used by your female relatives seem to have grown-up in the USA, post WW2 - quite a long way after, at that. I'm 72 yrs old, and I grew-up in SE England during and after WW2, in a middle-class family that was fairly prosperous by English social standards of the Time. We lived in a garden suburb of Southend, which had been developed from Southchurch farmland . Dad and MUm had bought a newly-built, 3-bedroomed semi-detached house when they married in 1934. At that time, Dad had the second motorcar in the 750yds-long Marlborough Road. Mum had a brand-new Frigidaire when they moved-in to their new house in 1934, and a brand-new kitchen cooker fuelled by coalgas. Their telephone number was Southend 576 - this in a seaside holiday town of around 100,00 residents. She had an upright Hoover vacuum cleaner, an electric Singer sewing machine, - and was the envy of most of her female neighbours because she had these houswork aids.. But she did her washing in a galvanised tin tub, and used a dolly agitator, and a washboard; and her ironing with a series of flat-irons heated on the kitchen gas-stove. Just as her own Mum had done and still did in my Aunt's house a half-mile away. Mum got her first electric iron - from the E.K. Cole Factory out near Rochford, - when my brother was born in 1945. I well remember my safety briefing! about that, because most of my schoolfriend's Mothers were still doing their ironing with flat-irons heated on their own kitchen stoves/cookers A nd Mum's first elecrtically-run washing machine, [an American import which cost Dad a lot of money in the Southend Gas. Light, Coke Co,. Showrooms] - was bought for her Birthday in 1948 - and didn't have what you Americans call a wringer. She had to wait for one of those until 1953, Coronation Year. She then sold her first upright-tub washing machine pre-owned to a neighbour for more than Dad had paid for it 5 years earlier, because electric washing machines were still the exception rather than the Rule within our local circle of middle-class neighbours. Now I tell you all this, because most of your comments seem to relate to a rather later and more prosperous America [than post-war Britain] - where such domestic domestic white-goods were more readily available. The UK situation just post-War was that - for a very long time, in postWar Britain, - the Middle-Classes just could buy those US-made machines, - because US imports were heavily restricted. And what made THAT more frustrating for our family was that my Aunt mercia's husband was a typographer working for Cunard aboard the 2 Queens and the Caronia on the recently re-instated Transatlantic Services, - and would bring home every month [ amongst other things from the USA] - nylons and American cigarettes for my Aunt and his sisters-in-law, - the occasional US-made toy and Marvell Family Comic books for me; - and the latest Saturday Evening Posts with those wonderful Norman Rockwell Covers, - full of adverts for
Re: [h-cost] where has all the velvet gone? (rant)
FWIW, I was in Target (oh, pardon me, I mean Tar-zhay!) :-) today and admired some lovely robin's-egg blue 100% cotton velvet curtain panels (made in China, of course). I wondered what I could make out of them. $14.99 for a panel 40 x 84 (I think) doesn't work out too badly. Hope this helps! On Jan 18, 2010 4:43 PM, Dawn d...@reddawn.net wrote: I had a most disappointing shopping trip today. I was searching for a nice blue-green cotton velvet and was surprised at the lack of options. I went to Hancock's first, they had NO fashion velvet of any kind. They had 3 rolls of upholstery velvet, nice stuff, in black, brown and red. Hobby Lobby had no upholstery velvet, and cheap acrylic fashion velvet in black, navy and red. I found some medium turquoise on the clearance rack and bought that. It might work, and it was cheap enough. Joann's had the requisite cheap acrylic velvet in red and black, and no upholstery velvet. Lots of chenille, no velvet. So what is it with velvet these days? The acrylic stuff just gets crappier and crappier and I can't find simple cotton anywhere. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] OT regional English for mangle
I remember reading about immigrants to the US prior to about 1950. The very first thing that they, or those that were coming up in the world did when the family got a little money coming in to spend on Mom was to hire the washing done. My brother has a collection of washing widgets (only one machine that worked with Electricity!). It must have been backbreaking work for a single woman, and even a woman and daughters. During the Depression of the 1930's my mother was in college (poor as church mice, but they lived in Corvallis, Oregon near Oregon State University). When the President of the College realized that they were going to loose all those students who were only just barely making it (my mother and grandmother spent every summer working in the fruit canneries to make her tuition and Grandmother worked in one of the Sorority houses as a kitchen maid) he decreed that every employee of the College would contribute one days pay a month to one of these scholars. In order to make it up to the College secretary that sponsored my mother my grandmother did the lady's silk unmentionables by hand and returned them clean, ironed and properly folded! Many women didn't trust their delicate under things which were frequently silk, or fine clothing to washing machines until fairly late. Washing machines sold like hot cakes though. Wonderful for those big, heavy sheets and workman's pants or skirts. The mangle my neighbor gave me came from the early 1950's. She told me about ironing the frills on her daughter's dressed as well as doing sheets and table cloths. It took skill to do that! The washer with ringer that was in our home was fairly old when I remember pouring an entire box of washing detergent (powder) into it and having suds everywhere! I wasn't allowed to actually use the wringer part because of the danger of getting hand, hair, or even dress caught and dragged through it. Besides, I couldn't reach that high!. I do remember hating having to put up the wash on the clothes line and then get it in. At least we had drying wires in the basement for when it got cold or rainy! My mother even had special racks to insert into pants so they would dry with a crease in them! Ironing meant sprinkling each piece with a little water and rolling it up then putting it in a plastic bag so that everything got evenly damp so you could iron it. This was before steam irons but after the old sad-irons that heated on the top of the stove. No one really saw the need for indoor dryers until the mid to late 1950's in my neighborhood. After WWII, Britain continued to have rationing for several years. Rationing in the US disappeared almost as soon as the war ended. Wanda -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com]on Behalf Of julian wilson Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 10:40 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] OT regional english for mangle Ok, Guys and Gals, there is obviously a terminology divide between the UK and the USA, as well as a Time divide here. May I put in a comments from an ageing Britisher? Most of you who remember an ironing mangle being used by your female relatives seem to have grown-up in the USA, post WW2 - quite a long way after, at that. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Perrine and Mane's book on costume gives one explanation, but since they don't footnote anything, it's difficult to know if they are right. I know that metal headpieces of the same shape are found in pre-and Islamic graves in central Asia. One source I have read (and I cannot remember which, since it was years ago) said it came to Europe due to contacts with the Islamic countries. From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton [ro...@netherton.net] Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:42 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The term hennin otsisto wrote: I do not know why you are looking it up in OED as it isn't English. (Did the English wear hennins?) The word is used in modern English (and it's in the OED as such), and the OED gives etymologies, so I was hoping for a clue -- but as I noted, OED is not my reference of choice for costume terms, just what I happened to have at hand. I'm not at a library today. I was rather hoping someone had already trodden this ground before, so I could give my inquirer an accepted answer. But it's not a question I'm going to be able to take time to research, and I don't expect anyone else to spend a lot of time on it. I am not 100% sure where I saw the info but I believe it is Old French or possibly of Neitherland origin. I vaguely remember something about hennin and a cockscomb association. I think the modern Dutch word for cockscomb is hanekam. I am unsure what the medieval word would be. That's as good an idea as any, and probably more likely than hent or henne. Julian was probably right to look at medieval Flemish, but that's way out of my range of references at hand. Overall, though, it's sounding like there isn't a previously researched, accepted etymology. Rather, it might be good subject for a research project. In this case, for someone else, not me! Regardless of etymology, though, even one contemporary inventory reference that uses the word would answer my inquirer's question, as she was told the word wasn't actually used for the headdress in the period, except perhaps as a term of derision. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] OT regional English for mangle
At 06:02 PM 1/18/2010, you wrote: [snip] I do remember hating having to put up the wash on the clothes line and then get it in. At least we had drying wires in the basement for when it got cold or rainy! My mother even had special racks to insert into pants so they would dry with a crease in them! Ironing meant sprinkling each piece with a little water and rolling it up then putting it in a plastic bag so that everything got evenly damp so you could iron it. This was before steam irons but after the old sad-irons that heated on the top of the stove. [snip] You can still get the old-fashioned pants stretchers. And wringers. And sad irons. Lehman's, in Kidron, Ohio, sells lots of old-fashioned goods. I just received their Spring 2010 Non-Electric Catalog. Go to www.Lehmans.com . Joan Jurancich joa...@surewest.net ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
Nordtorp-Madson, Michelle A. wrote: Perrine and Mane's book on costume gives one explanation, but since they don't footnote anything, it's difficult to know if they are right. I know that metal headpieces of the same shape are found in pre-and Islamic graves in central Asia. One source I have read (and I cannot remember which, since it was years ago) said it came to Europe due to contacts with the Islamic countries. It's the word, not the shape, I'm trying to track ... or am I missing something? --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
You're right. My Robert de la langue français says: hennin n.m. (1428; nééerl. henninck coq). So, according to the Robert, it's from the Netherlandish henninck which means rooster, apparently! Audrey On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 7:23 PM, otsisto otsi...@socket.net wrote: I do not know why you are looking it up in OED as it isn't English. (Did the English wear hennins?) I am not 100% sure where I saw the info but I believe it is Old French or possibly of Neitherland origin. I vaguely remember something about hennin and a cockscomb association. I think the modern Dutch word for cockscomb is hanekam. I am unsure what the medieval word would be. Hope this helps, De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The term hennin
It was more that an Islamic origin would be possibly seen as perjorative. When I get to work tomorrow, I will look it up in P M. I have both French and English versions; neither is footnoted, but at least the French has an index. From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton [ro...@netherton.net] Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 8:51 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The term hennin Nordtorp-Madson, Michelle A. wrote: Perrine and Mane's book on costume gives one explanation, but since they don't footnote anything, it's difficult to know if they are right. I know that metal headpieces of the same shape are found in pre-and Islamic graves in central Asia. One source I have read (and I cannot remember which, since it was years ago) said it came to Europe due to contacts with the Islamic countries. It's the word, not the shape, I'm trying to track ... or am I missing something? --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] OT regional English for mangle
... they would dry with a crease in them! Ironing meant sprinkling each piece with a little water and rolling it up then putting it in a plastic bag so that everything got evenly damp so you could iron it. This was before steam irons but after the old sad-irons that heated on the top of the stove. Yes, I remember the damping bag; I think my mother used a pillow case as often as a plastic bag. Anybody here remember the Coke bottle with the sprinkler spout, for spot dampening AS you were ironing? It was like a miniature watering can perforated spout, maybe 2 across, with a cork end for applying it into the mouth of the Coke bottle. The 1st 3d pics on this page http://www.rubylane.com/shops/packratemporium/item/59 I certainly remember my mother using one in the ... 60's? When I was a pre-teen and teenager. I don't know how long she kept it up, but she did eventually cut WAY back on ironing altogether! These days, I press seams as I construct, but don't even iron pillowcases! And an ironed cotton pillowcase is definitely included in MY idea of sensual heaven, 8-) chimene ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] where has all the velvet gone? (rant) Where I got mine..
I gave up too and shop online, for the cotton velvet. I got some super soft rose color cotton velvet at Fabric.com and also some nice black cotton velvet on sale for $5.75 a yd. Might see what they have up. melody --- On Mon, 1/18/10, Dawn d...@reddawn.net wrote: From: Dawn d...@reddawn.net Subject: [h-cost] where has all the velvet gone? (rant) To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Date: Monday, January 18, 2010, 4:39 PM I had a most disappointing shopping trip today. I was searching for a nice blue-green cotton velvet and was surprised at the lack of options. I went to Hancock's first, they had NO fashion velvet of any kind. They had 3 rolls of upholstery velvet, nice stuff, in black, brown and red. Hobby Lobby had no upholstery velvet, and cheap acrylic fashion velvet in black, navy and red. I found some medium turquoise on the clearance rack and bought that. It might work, and it was cheap enough. Joann's had the requisite cheap acrylic velvet in red and black, and no upholstery velvet. Lots of chenille, no velvet. So what is it with velvet these days? The acrylic stuff just gets crappier and crappier and I can't find simple cotton anywhere. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] where has all the velvet gone? (rant)
Dawn, Joann's and Hancock are not exactly known for quality merchandise, and I have no idea about Hobby Lobby. Its name suggests not much. I'd go online to look. The last cotton velvet I found was (improbably) at Wal-Mart in the 1990s. I bought all I could in 3 colors. it's still ripening for a project ;) == Marjorie Wilser (who doesn't shop Wal-Mart any more) =:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:= Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement. --MW http://3toad.blogspot.com/ On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Dawn wrote: I had a most disappointing shopping trip today. I was searching for a nice blue-green cotton velvet and was surprised at the lack of options. I went to Hancock's first, they had NO fashion velvet of any kind. They had 3 rolls of upholstery velvet, nice stuff, in black, brown and red. Hobby Lobby had no upholstery velvet, and cheap acrylic fashion velvet in black, navy and red. I found some medium turquoise on the clearance rack and bought that. It might work, and it was cheap enough. Joann's had the requisite cheap acrylic velvet in red and black, and no upholstery velvet. Lots of chenille, no velvet. So what is it with velvet these days? The acrylic stuff just gets crappier and crappier and I can't find simple cotton anywhere. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] where has all the velvet gone? (rant)
There is a place in San Jose, Ca, called Fabrics R Us. I haven't been there recently, but they had cotton velvet, and at very reasonable prices. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Marjorie Wilser Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 11:38 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] where has all the velvet gone? (rant) Dawn, Joann's and Hancock are not exactly known for quality merchandise, and I have no idea about Hobby Lobby. Its name suggests not much. I'd go online to look. The last cotton velvet I found was (improbably) at Wal-Mart in the 1990s. I bought all I could in 3 colors. it's still ripening for a project ;) == Marjorie Wilser (who doesn't shop Wal-Mart any more) =:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:= Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement. --MW http://3toad.blogspot.com/ On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Dawn wrote: I had a most disappointing shopping trip today. I was searching for a nice blue-green cotton velvet and was surprised at the lack of options. I went to Hancock's first, they had NO fashion velvet of any kind. They had 3 rolls of upholstery velvet, nice stuff, in black, brown and red. Hobby Lobby had no upholstery velvet, and cheap acrylic fashion velvet in black, navy and red. I found some medium turquoise on the clearance rack and bought that. It might work, and it was cheap enough. Joann's had the requisite cheap acrylic velvet in red and black, and no upholstery velvet. Lots of chenille, no velvet. So what is it with velvet these days? The acrylic stuff just gets crappier and crappier and I can't find simple cotton anywhere. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
