Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics? (long)
On Saturday 03 December 2005 1:56 am, Heather Rose Jones wrote: [snip] It also strikes me that those descriptions don't rule out the possibility that the linen was used as a lining for the caftan or hanging dress respectively. (I keep forgetting what the current standard English term is for the not-an-apron dress.) You're right, they don't rule out that possibility. Though Hagg's analysis of some of the finds suggest that at least some caftans were lined with silk--a detail I've always found hard to accept in light of the evidence that silk was rare enough to be used for trim. I'm not sure there is a standard English term for the hanging dress. Most SCA types now call it an apron dress, for want of a better term. Some people borrow the modern Scandanavian terms hangerrock (sorry, I can't put in the proper diacritical marks) or traggerock. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] Physics is like sex; sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.--Richard Feynman ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics? (long)
The terms I hear/see most often used for that item of clothing around here are either apron gown or apron dress. Apron gown more commonly. Interesting, isn't it? how some words transfer into English (like naalbinding), and others do not --Maire, off to knit a shawl and listen to the radio, while the snow comes down on the dark streets outside, and the cats sleep on the hearth rug. - Original Message - From: Catherine Olanich Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics? (long) On Saturday 03 December 2005 1:56 am, Heather Rose Jones wrote: [snip] It also strikes me that those descriptions don't rule out the possibility that the linen was used as a lining for the caftan or hanging dress respectively. (I keep forgetting what the current standard English term is for the not-an-apron dress.) You're right, they don't rule out that possibility. Though Hagg's analysis of some of the finds suggest that at least some caftans were lined with silk--a detail I've always found hard to accept in light of the evidence that silk was rare enough to be used for trim. I'm not sure there is a standard English term for the hanging dress. Most SCA types now call it an apron dress, for want of a better term. Some people borrow the modern Scandanavian terms hangerrock (sorry, I can't put in the proper diacritical marks) or traggerock. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics? (long)
On Saturday 03 December 2005 8:21 pm, Sue Clemenger wrote: The terms I hear/see most often used for that item of clothing around here are either apron gown or apron dress. Apron gown more commonly. I never heard apron gown before, though it makes as much sense as anything else. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] Physics is like sex; sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.--Richard Feynman ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics?
In going through my fabric stash, I find I have a number of things I've bought over the years that I no longer consider suitable for medieval clothing. They're good fabrics, and I am wondering what they might be useful for (other than modern clothing or home decor). I know almost nothing about periods after 15th c. What periods, if any, would these be suitable for: -- linen dyed in strong colors, e.g. cranberry, deep green, bright red, black (I've been using the hot pink for mock-ups!) (snip) --Robin Oh, these would be great for early 17th cen. stuff. I've been amazed at the strong colors I've been turning up in paintings and written records. I've got a bright red dress jacket made up in linen and I'd like to get a petticoat done to match it, but didn't have enough fabric for that. Melusine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics?
At 01:10 AM 12/2/2005, you wrote: In going through my fabric stash, I find I have a number of things I've bought over the years that I no longer consider suitable for medieval clothing. They're good fabrics, and I am wondering what they might be useful for (other than modern clothing or home decor). I know almost nothing about periods after 15th c. What periods, if any, would these be suitable for: snip -- glazed cotton (apricot, blue) snip --Robin I was thinking this would be great for 18th century. I believe in the discussion of quilted petticoats when I was looking for sources for glazed wool someone suggest glazed cotton instead. Certainly the colours would be suitable. Cheers, Danielle ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics?
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, otsisto wrote: -- linen dyed in strong colors, e.g. cranberry, deep green, bright red, black (I've been using the hot pink for mock-ups!) What is wrong with using these for medieval clothing? Hmm, I guess it's been a while since this came up on the list. In very very brief (without rehearsing all the lengthy discussion), the available evidence strongly suggests that linen was not generally used for the outer layer of gowns (i.e. the fashion fabric). It shows up in documentary and archaeological evidence for many other things: (undyed) for chemises, shirts, and other body linens, as well as veils and aprons; (occasionally dyed?) for clothing linings; (again undyed) for a huge variety of household uses, such as bed linens, table linens, towels, plus (coarser) wrapping, sacking, sails, etc. I believe there's also evidence for some specialized occupational garments made of heavy linen, probably undyed, such as warriors' gambesons. And certainly some ecclesiastical garments were done of linen. However, I have yet to find a reliable reference to a colored linen gown/tunic/surcote/etc. from medieval Western Europe. This preference would be consistent with the assumption that period linens were unlikely to take period dyes with much depth/permanency, and colors were preferred in gowns. Before anyone starts sending me counterexamples: Note that I am *not* using an SCA definition of medieval. My own work is strictly 11th to mid-15th c. (and mostly 13th/14th c.). I realize there are ample references from the later 16th c. to linen garments (other than body linens) -- that's not what I'm talking about. The economics and methods involved in clothing construction were very different in the Elizabethan era! I also would not be surprised if linen were used for garments in medieval Italy and/or Spain, which were warmer in climate, enjoyed more influences from the East and South, and had a rather different range of garment styles and construction approaches. However, those countries fall outside of my field of inquiry. There would still be the color issue (which perhaps accounts for the greater abundance of pastel shades in clothing depicted in Italian art, but that's simply a musing at this point). I am told that while people using medieval dye recipes today may have success in getting strong, durable colors in modern linen, this reflects the use of certain modern fiber treatments that make modern linen more amenable to dyeing. I am inclined to trust the fiber experts I know who say that period linens, lacking these treatments, would not have been so willing to accept and retain dye. And while there are extant examples of dyed linens, they seem to be used in places that do not get much light exposure (e.g. linings). I'm not absolutely wed to this argument, but I've been keeping an eye out for evidence to the contrary for the last decade or so, and haven't seen anything that strongly counters this hypothesis. On the other hand, there is an abundance of evidence for wool as the default fiber for the fashion layer of gowns/tunics/surcotes of all classes, as well as silk for the wealthy. So if I do eventually find a good reference for a linen garment, it would simply indicate that this is a highly rare, not typical, usage. So: I'm not saying linen was never used for body garments. But it does appear that it was not at all typical. And unless I find good reason to think that it was more than vanishingly rare, I don't want to use it for my work. (My main purpose in making medieval clothing is to test and then demonstrate construction methods, meaning I need to approximate the most likely/typical materials.) I realize that many re-enactors routinely recommend linen for garments, but I think this is a misreading based simply on the fact that linen was one of the two dominant fibers available at this time. Not all fibers were used for all purposes; they have different properties and were used in a specialized fashion. A lot of re-enactors also assume that wool = hot, so linen must have been the default for summer, and should be used for re-enactment in the generally warmer temperatures of modern America. I don't find this to be a valid argument for a variety of reasons (chiefly that a wool garment doesn't have to be hot!), but it's a common one. (Now: PLEASE don't anyone go saying Robin Netherton says they never used linen in period! As I've tried to make clear, I'm talking about a specific sort of use, of a specific kind of linen, in a specific region, in a specific time period. Funny how these sorts of nuances get lost when people go repeating things, and it comes back to me months or years later that I've said something was always/never done, without any of those carefully stated qualifications!) -- moire (the modern stuff that looks like wood-grain in texture, probably rayon), in light blue or ivory or yellowy-white Early tudor. One or more of the unicorn tapestries has a woman wearing
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics?
In a message dated 12/2/2005 1:44:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: -- linen dyed in strong colors, e.g. cranberry, deep green, bright redblack (I've been using the hot pink for mock-ups!) * You can always dip them down or change the color completely by dying...Ritt works well on lineneven the hot pink. -- glazed cotton (apricot, blue) ** 18th centuryespecially for lining a caraco or something where you'll catch a glimpse of it...like a yellow silk jacket lined with the blue...or actually even the apricot. Tres chich! -- moire (the modern stuff that looks like wood-grain in texture, probably rayon), in light blue or ivory or yellowy-white ** Victorian. I see an 1895 ball gown with huge sleeves -- silk noil *** Hmm embroider it in coral red and make an early 1920s day dress or make a great 20s dress out of some brightly patterned china silk and a floater coat of the noil lined with the dress fabric. Also tres chich! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics? (long)
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, E House wrote: Well, a quick search hasn't found that reference I was thinking of yet (I'm still going to look more, since this is BUGGING me), but did find these references to dyeing linen--that doesn't indicate what that linen was then used FOR, but it's a definite part of the puzzle... Yes, there are certainly plenty of references to linen dyeing and linen garments in the 16th c. The Plictho would be another similar source; Drea has been collecting these for ages (and I'm guessing you picked these up from her site? let's give her credit for her great work in webbing all this material). So it sounds like I can justify most of my linen hues for 16th c.; I don't know if I can justify the deep intensity of the shades I have on hand, or whether they're correct for clothing :-( There are 16th c. inventories and other documentary references to dyed linen garments, but I'm not sure about the colors mentioned -- I haven't done any real study of this period. Your Italian reference is the earliest I've seen for a recipe, which supports what I said earlier about seeing some implications that dyed linen was in greater use in Italy earlier than points north. I once heard a scholar refer to legal restrictions on linen dyers in medieval Germany (something like not being allowed to dump their dyebaths in the local river), but I'd like to get a better citation before I take on faith that this wasn't a misreading of a restriction that mentioned both linen processors and dyers in the same ordinance, since both procedures do nasty things to water supplies. Clearly there's some dyed linen floating around in medieval Western Europe -- e.g. there's a surviving garment with black linen lining, IIRC -- and I want to make very sure no one thinks I'm saying there was no linen dyeing done in this period. But I don't think it's safe to assume from that that the linen was frequently dyed, and that dyed linen was typically used for the visible layers of clothing, which is what my focus was in my earlier post. Some time ago on this list, someone talked at length about evidence that linen in, hmm, 18th c America? -- I'd have to look it up -- being used almost exclusively in white, blue (often striped), and brown, but rarely or never in other colors, based on inventory evidence and surviving garments. So I wonder whether the use of more variously colored linens was something that went in and out over time, or came later to certain geographical regions. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics?
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/2/2005 1:44:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: -- linen dyed in strong colors, e.g. cranberry, deep green, bright redblack (I've been using the hot pink for mock-ups!) * You can always dip them down or change the color completely by dying...Ritt works well on lineneven the hot pink. If I needed it, yes, but since I have a ready source of inexpensive undyed/bleached linen, it seems silly to pay money to spoil some really nice colored fabrics if they can be used elsewhere. That's why I'm wondering where else they might be used; I'd like to give some of them to friends, and I'll sell the rest. Thanks so much for the thoughts on the others! --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics? (long)
Yes! That was from Drea's site. By the way, I'm not saying that colored linen should be used for outer layers of outer garments (but I do, because I can look at a picture of fire and get over-heated) but rather that colored linen can be reasonably documented as a _part_ of an outer garment. A few more notes, some of which rely on translations by Katherine Barich: There's also at least one extant blue linen lining, Queen Margareta's dress if I remember aright. Yep, here it is: Blue hip-length linen torso lining dated to early 15th century: Drottning Margaretas gyllen kjortel i Uppsala Domkyrka (The Golden Gown of Queen Margareta in Uppsala Cathedral). Geijer, Agners, Anne Marie Franzen, Margareta Nockert. Kungl. Vitterhets Historie och Antikvitets Akademien 1994 (1st print 1985). and also: Black, waxed full linen lining of a Burgundian man's coat (mid 15thc), Textile Conservation. Flury-Lemberg, Mechthild. Schriften Der Abegg-Stiftung, Bern, 1988. pp. 156-157. The 'Textiler Hausrat' by Jutta Zander-Seidel has inventories that reference (colored?) linens used in garments (sorry, my notes on this one aren't clear enough for me to understand them). TH certainly includes a reference to a black linen lining in 16thC Nuremberg, and the book includes a ton of excellent fabric terminology stuff, such as: 'Gugler' is a term for a type of linen used in clothing that could be sold either unfinished or dyed. A linen version of taffeta was available in 1582, as seen in a 1582 inventory of a newcastle merchant: viii yards lennen taffety 12/. Damasks and velvets intended to imitate more expensive fabrics were also made with linen, and therefore would have almost certainly been dyed. TH (or possibly 'Das Nuernberger Kunstbuch,' below--unclear notes again) also has recipes for dyeing linen red, green, yellow, and brown. 'Das Nuernberger Kunstbuch,' 2nd half of 15th C, has another recipe for dyed linen, but I don't have a word for word translation of it--the key phrase at the end of the recipe is vnd du mach leines oder wulleins also verben which, not word for word, means this is how you dye linen or wool. The Vision of Piers Plowman, passus 1 (B-text, written c 1376), mentions linen clothing: 1.003: A lovely lady of leere in lynnen yclothed but of course there could be symbolic reasons for that one. According to someone who's read them (not me) the Rules of the Order of St. John of Jerusalem specify a habit of black linen for Hospitaller nuns in Jerusalem in the 12thC. From natural dyers in general: Linen takes tannin-based dyes well, but not ones that require another mordant. So, colors achievable with tannin-based dyes, such as yellows, browns, and almost-blacks, would all be reasonable colors. I once heard a scholar refer to legal restrictions on linen dyers in medieval Germany (something like not being allowed to dump their dyebaths in the local river), but I'd like to get a better citation before I take on faith that this wasn't a misreading of a restriction that mentioned both linen processors and dyers in the same ordinance, since both procedures do nasty things to water supplies. Textiler Hausrat would be a good place to check for this, if you can find a helpful translator. -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics? (long)
On Friday 02 December 2005 3:55 pm, Robin Netherton wrote: [snip] Clearly there's some dyed linen floating around in medieval Western Europe -- e.g. there's a surviving garment with black linen lining, IIRC -- and I want to make very sure no one thinks I'm saying there was no linen dyeing done in this period. But I don't think it's safe to assume from that that the linen was frequently dyed, and that dyed linen was typically used for the visible layers of clothing, which is what my focus was in my earlier post. I know of no examples of linen outerwear from the later Middle Ages. However, in an essay published in Cloth and Clothing in Medieval Europe Inga Hagg published the results of a stratographic analysis of grave finds at Birka, which indicated that some of the linen fragments found did not come from a shift (i.e. underwear) but from a caftan or mantle--an outer garment. In a different essay (of which I've read reports but do not have a copy) she has posited that some of the outerwear layer linen fragments belonged to the so-called apron dress. To my knowledge, however, the Birka linen fragments have not been exposed to the sort of analysis that would enable a determination of whether they had been dyed or not. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] Physics is like sex; sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.--Richard Feynman ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics? (long)
Of course Linen is not as durable in an extant situation as is wool. Ron Carnegie I know of no examples of linen outerwear from the later Middle Ages. However, in an essay published in Cloth and Clothing in Medieval Europe Inga Hagg published the results of a stratographic analysis of grave finds at Birka, which indicated that some of the linen fragments found did not come from a shift (i.e. underwear) but from a caftan or mantle--an outer garment. In a different essay (of which I've read reports but do not have a copy) she has posited that some of the outerwear layer linen fragments belonged to the so-called apron dress. To my knowledge, however, the Birka linen fragments have not been exposed to the sort of analysis that would enable a determination of whether they had been dyed or not. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] Physics is like sex; sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.--Richard Feynman ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics? (long)
On Dec 2, 2005, at 9:40 PM, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: On Friday 02 December 2005 3:55 pm, Robin Netherton wrote: [snip] Clearly there's some dyed linen floating around in medieval Western Europe -- e.g. there's a surviving garment with black linen lining, IIRC -- and I want to make very sure no one thinks I'm saying there was no linen dyeing done in this period. But I don't think it's safe to assume from that that the linen was frequently dyed, and that dyed linen was typically used for the visible layers of clothing, which is what my focus was in my earlier post. I know of no examples of linen outerwear from the later Middle Ages. However, in an essay published in Cloth and Clothing in Medieval Europe Inga Hagg published the results of a stratographic analysis of grave finds at Birka, which indicated that some of the linen fragments found did not come from a shift (i.e. underwear) but from a caftan or mantle--an outer garment. In a different essay (of which I've read reports but do not have a copy) she has posited that some of the outerwear layer linen fragments belonged to the so-called apron dress. To my knowledge, however, the Birka linen fragments have not been exposed to the sort of analysis that would enable a determination of whether they had been dyed or not. It also strikes me that those descriptions don't rule out the possibility that the linen was used as a lining for the caftan or hanging dress respectively. (I keep forgetting what the current standard English term is for the not-an-apron dress.) Heather -- Heather Rose Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.heatherrosejones.com LJ:hrj ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] What periods for these fabrics?
In going through my fabric stash, I find I have a number of things I've bought over the years that I no longer consider suitable for medieval clothing. They're good fabrics, and I am wondering what they might be useful for (other than modern clothing or home decor). I know almost nothing about periods after 15th c. What periods, if any, would these be suitable for: -- linen dyed in strong colors, e.g. cranberry, deep green, bright red, black (I've been using the hot pink for mock-ups!) -- glazed cotton (apricot, blue) -- moire (the modern stuff that looks like wood-grain in texture, probably rayon), in light blue or ivory or yellowy-white -- silk noil I'm sure I'll find more; these are things that happen to be in my use someday boxes that I'm finally realizing I'll never have reason to use in my usual work. If I know what they're good for, I can perhaps make suitable gifts of them. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics?
-- linen dyed in strong colors, e.g. cranberry, deep green, bright red, black (I've been using the hot pink for mock-ups!) What is wrong with using these for medieval clothing? -- moire (the modern stuff that looks like wood-grain in texture, probably rayon), in light blue or ivory or yellowy-white Early tudor. One or more of the unicorn tapestries has a woman wearing what appears to be moire (the wood grain looking stuff) De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
