Re: [h-cost] Cranach dress
Sighanother reminder of an article I have promised to write (for years!). The other type of pleats are typically called organ pipe pleats. There are a number of different ways to achieve the tapered tube look Sg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm unsure about the pleating. Some sites insist on cartridge pleating but not all the paintings look like cartridge pleats. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Cranach dress
I'm unsure about the pleating. Some sites insist on cartridge pleating but not all the paintings look like cartridge pleats. I'm thinking the front piece (Top part) is held in place with hook eyes while the bottom is laced from side to side through concealed lacing rings. This is because I know people use the term cartridge pleat to mean a great variety of pleat types, not just narrow firm pleats that jut away from the body. I think it's used by some to describe pleats that are not sewn into a waistband or between the layers of fabric for the bodice (shell and lining.) http://www.kannikskorner.com/infostitches.htm http://www.vertetsable.com/research_vocabulary.htm Descriptiosn that are probably the truest of the term. http://www.sewmuchmoreinfo.com/Sewopaedia.html This is the only reference I can find that suggests the pleats are merely rounded rather than lying flat. So it all depends on who is using the term;) http://costume.dm.net/pleats/ I have used very deep pleats on two German skirts and I love the way the pleats hang to the ground. http://costumes.glittersweet.com/sca The Anna Meyer dress and my 1570s Westfalen dress (still in progress.) For each top edge of the pleats seen 8 times the amount of fabric was used. This is really more suited to light weight fabrics though as it can get bulky. So I wouldn't want to use it on say a velvet or wool gown. In that regard the best bang for buck is to use a circular/gored pattern. The Bases Sg mentioned are basically a big circle. This means you have far less fabric at the waist to add bulk than you have at the hem, where you do want a lot of fabric. This is also the constuction of the Mary of Hungary gown;) http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/mary I was kindly sent photos that show the back of the gown, and you can see there is some ease at the back that causes the skirt to hang in folds from the waist. There are a few very definite examples of circular skirts as well: http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/1540erzherzoginanna.htm http://www.asn-ibk.ac.at/bildung/faecher/geschichte/maike/bilderkatalog/habsburger/abb10s.htm Both use sunray pleating, and indeed Anna's shows the direction of the grain of the fabric quite well. Now another question, many of the portraits have a bodice style that while still having the piece in front also have a high collar. Could you make a jacket without sleeves rather than making 2 dresses, one with the collar and one without? I have seen what looks like a capelet with a high collar that gives much the same effect. I think you may be referring to a gollar and a gollar style dress? It depends on what you want. I wouldn't make what is essentially a vest, as it'll be very much more bulky than a single bodice. A gollar is a wonderful acessory as well, it does make a difference to warmth and is nice and portable. And there are a variety of styles, dependant on time and place. And as regards the bands at the back, I still haven't seen any, but I have seen low necks filled in with hemden: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/glittersweet/frau/7003224.jpg I would really appreciate any clues about the artwork that shows bands at the back, I'd like to be able to see them. michaela de bruce http://glittersweet.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/143 - Release Date: 19/10/2005 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Cranach dress
I'm doing some research on the german Cranach dress style. I would love to hear thoughts, ideas, websites etc. for a. Bodice: attached or not, b. is there a band of fabric from shoulder to shoulder at the back that is edited out of most paintings (But is often seen in the German housebook for example). c. closure in the side front? d. corset or no? Ooh boy, can o worms here we come;) Seriously this style of dress is not as easily understood as many because we have to rely so much on artwork of the time, which as anyone knows is not an infallable method of understanding fine detail;) That said, there is a lot we can say about the Saxon court style based on paintings and woodcuts. Closure: I have never seen any example of back fastening, nor indeed a centre back seam in any of the artwork I've seen*. At least not prior to the take up of Spanish influenced dress of the later part of the century. Closed front bodices probaly closed up the side, and not side back. Again I have never seen evidence of side back seams in any of the paintings of German (or Swiss, or Austrian etc) women. Nor woodcuts either. Side seams are nearly invisible to us due to arms usually hiding that area. So it's mostly conjecture at this point. The open fronted bodices with lacing are probably fastened using the lacing and either hooks and eyes at the top or pins to keep the bust section in place. As for where the skirt fastens... either at the side front where the front of the bodice ends or at centre front. The Mary of Hungary dress which is contemporary with this style (and resembles it in a very toned down manner) appears to fasten at the centre front of the skirt. There is a centre front seam, so it makes sense to have the fastening there. Attachment of skirt: yes, sewn to the bodice. There are a few paintings where it seems that the gurads of the bodice extend over the skirt, but I'd like to see the paintings in person to see if there is a reason for it (restoration etc) Band: I honestly have no idea what you are referring to here. (Use of terms issue here rather than what we are seeing?) There are no bands edited out of paintings (restored? Omitted by the painter?) that I have heard of. The only bands I can think of in the Master of the House Book appear on the front of male and female garments. They are more like lacing rather than bands as well. There is the brustfleck which is worn on somehting that is widely argued about;) The decorative band that sits on top of the (usually) white section above the lacing at the front is what I am referring to. Corsets: well. there is a woodcut that shows somehting that looks awfully like a (softly) boned garment like that worn by Eleanora di Toledo. It hooks up the font and shows equidistant vertical lines, as one would see in boning channels. However the garment is rather soft, so obviously not boned with anything rigid. It may even be simply quilted. In Textiler Hausrat there is mention of Mieder (translated as corsets) but as I don't have the book so I can't say how early this term is used, or if it's a term used by the author (the book is in German.) There are also examples in painting of what appear to be sleeveless bodices (hard to find the skirts so it's hard to say if it's just a bodice or a full length undergarment.) I've tried a pair of bodies, kirtles and a few self-supporting German dresses. I prefer the ease of a single layer (self supporting) but find it hard to adjust down when I stretch the dress with wear;) Or fom weight loss, which happens at each event longer than a day. I'm also heading into later period and am having to work out a few odd layers of a regional style dress;) I would heartily recommend underskirts if you don't go for a kirtle type garment, the skirts in Saxon Court dresses tend to have a fair bit of flair at the hem which do need some support. michaela de bruce http://costumes.glittersweet.com http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com * I have seen a tapestry (well photo of one) that shows funky back lacing, but it appears ot be decorative rather than finctional. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/142 - Release Date: 18/10/2005 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Cranach dress
I'm doing some research on the german Cranach dress style. I would love to hear thoughts, ideas, websites etc. for a. Bodice: attached or not, b. is there a band of fabric from shoulder to shoulder at the back that is edited out of most paintings (But is often seen in the German housebook for example). c. closure in the side front? d. corset or no? Thanks Jean/Raella Only the mediocre are always at their best - Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Cranach dress
I'm doing some research on the german Cranach dress style. I would love
to hear thoughts, ideas, websites etc. for a. Bodice: attached or not,
There's one Cranach painting where the front edges of the dress don't quite
line up, as tho the front corners weren't attached to the skirt. But
there's another Cranach painting where someone like Lucretia is about to
stab herself, and the whole bodice seems to have peeled down to the waist.
b. is there a band of fabric from shoulder to shoulder at the back that is
edited out of most paintings (But is often seen in the German housebook
for example).
Not on a 'Cranach' dress; only on 'Durer' dresses.
c. closure in the side front?
Front, I think.
d. corset or no?
Whether or not there's an actual corset, there's some kind of body shaper
inside there.
CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
www.FunStuft.com
\\\
-@@\\\
7 )))
(((
) ((
/\ /---\))
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Cranach dress
Hi Jean/Raella-- I'm doing the Martyrdom of St. Barbara gown (Metropolitan Mus. of Art, NYC) 20,000 beads and counting... The shirt and bodice are definitely connected. Because of how she is kneeling I think it would be a back closure-- at least on this dress. It has a lot of Italian influence to my eye. Side closure... maybe, but nothing evident from the painting. Corset... probably not. Check out that huge book on Cranach. (Lucas Cranach, by Friedlander and Rosenberg) It shows lots of pics of women with their dresses open, like the multiple paintings of Lucretia. There are a few back views also. Most of the plates are BW, but some color.It is a great resource... One of these days I'll finish the darn thing... Regards- Dame Catriona MacDuff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 6:23 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cranach dress I'm doing some research on the german Cranach dress style. I would love to hear thoughts, ideas, websites etc. for a. Bodice: attached or not, b. is there a band of fabric from shoulder to shoulder at the back that is edited out of most paintings (But is often seen in the German housebook for example). c. closure in the side front? d. corset or no? Thanks Jean/Raella Only the mediocre are always at their best - Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
